Superman is stronger, but I was always okay with that as Thor brings more to a battle than him with his storms and all. I think people forget in Marvel he's the god of storms, not strength, like Hercules.

@toptom: What issue does the one where superman races flash at light speed happen?

@harmanswoodscpj: You're free to believe that if you want but likewise, I find your mystical excuse to be rather irrelevant to the specific details of Thor's World Tree feat. It's far too simplistic to buy into the 9 realms fallacy just because you want that feat to be a legitimate strength feat for Thor. Moreover, the scenario depicted clearly shows that The World Engine is connected by gears and an engine to power it so it doesn't matter whether it's mystical or not. And you don't actually address what I was saying, or quoting from someone else. All Thor was doing was pushing a wheel which turned some gears in the World Engine and that caused the World Tree to upset the natural order of the 9 realms. How does that prove Thor was affecting the entire 9 realms?

@lvenger: Your post about moving the world tree being useless seems very inaccurate to me. The 9 realms hang off this tree. So firstly, this tree is going to be mystical in nature. Thor wouldn't talk about breaking physical laws, is moving the world tree isn't that big a deal. He moved a mystical pillar that holds the 9 realms. I'm pretty sure thats how its meant to be taken.

Thor is an ant compare to Superman's strength level . Silver age feats trumps on any Thor strength feats .

Not even close in strength department.

@darkseidfanboy: A powerful mutant telepath> a man on a batsuit

@bappyhimself: he lost to Emma frost though .

At least he will never lose to Batman.

Superman will always be superior to Thor

ok this is one of those topics that make me say damn you bastards... but just to be clear, a weakened Thor pushed Yggdrasil alone... one shot multiple planets with shockwaves... damn... maintained the Hulk for an hour. etc. etc.

Superman Once moved approximately 4.3 Octillion ton

@toptom: At no point is it stated that Icon broke his hand.

@GypRosetti: supes wasn't koed by that,and he wasn't even bleeding,while icon has broken his hand.

still icon has stated that supes is stronger.bye.

@toptom: Didn't hurt Superman? Really? And no Superman was specified by the OP.

@GypRosetti said:

@toptom: And which Superman do you want to use?

http://www.comicvine.com/icon/29-47395/
Superhuman Strength
Icon possess vast strength due to his alien heritage and the maximization of his DNA given him limitless strength. He has shown to be far more powerful then Superman.

"About as hard as I've ever been hit"

i was using pre-52 superman. i suggest to you to stick with just one character to prove your point.

however that scan doesn't prove nothing. the only goal that icon achieved with his punch was hurting himself and not superman (as you can see even in your scan or in the mine )

still supes and icon have fought each other many years ago,and they were more or less equal,even if icon stated that supes was physically superior to him.

Well this turnt out well xD

@toptom: And which Superman do you want to use?

http://www.comicvine.com/icon/29-47395/
Superhuman Strength
Icon possess vast strength due to his alien heritage and the maximization of his DNA given him limitless strength. He has shown to be far more powerful then Superman.

"About as hard as I've ever been hit"

@GypRosetti said:

Doomsday was not beaten due to phasing, read the panels, he was beaten due to fear. Superman did not bench Earth for 15 days, he supported the equivalent of Earth's weight for 5 days. You also forget he needed the help of Wonder Woman & MM to move Earth. Doomsday and Icon are stonger than Superman. DNcU Superman gets tanked by lightning. No one is stronger than Hulk in the Marvel Universe. Some may start on a higher or equal footing (Thor, Juggernaut, Silver Surfer) but as he gets madder he eventually surpasses them. Galactus MAY be stronger but as he always shoots down Hulk before he has a chance to attack we don't really know. As for Hulk he's held the tectonic plates of planets together twice, that trumps any of Superman's strength feats after the Silver age. Hulk's strength is immeasurable, Superman's isn't.

you are mixing pre-52 supes and dcnu-supes at will to prove your point.

beides that....icon is not stronger than superman at all.

@Fifthchild said:

@Lvenger said:

@Fifthchild: Actually it is 3 times. Here are the first 2 and the third is in a fight with Mongul Jr and Mongal. I can't find the scan but on the Superman vs Goku Death Battle, it briefly shows up

Ok thats once as i count it. The first scan is the same thing happening a few times from the Doomsday issue i mentioned. The other scan is Superman vibrating so fast nobody could see him but says nothing as to whether he could vibrate through something.

I had a look at TomToms scans on his page. There was one scna that was by far the best example for the Superman-phasing case - the one where Supergirl explicitly phases through something by moving really fast. Eveything else there was on the same level as this more or less. There is one with a giant Mongul Jr firing beams that appear to go straight through him but is not at all clear whats going on there.

So for my money its happened once definitely for a member of the Superfamily, theres that ambiguous Doomsday scan and one that i'd have to see the surounding pages on to make any real comment.

To be more expansive I dont think its the worst thing in the world to invoke rarely shown abilities in a fight. The golden rule though is that if you do that then you extend the same courtesy to others which you appear to be doing here by allowing Thor the option that he might suck all the solar radiation out of Superman's body or something equally outrageous.

Still I think its really silly when the default approach to debate is to gather every single thing each character has ever done in decades of publishing, take every power no matter how many times used, find its highest showing and then use that to argue what they can and will do in a fight. Thats why things get so crazy when something like the scene with nu-Superman benching the Earth for 5 days happen - one throwaway scene changes everything about how people think about a character. Which is stupid.

Sorry for the late reply, felt tired yesterday. With the Mongul scan I see that as clear phasing. Superman's body is clearly in the path of the beams yet he passes through them with ease. Definite vibration for me seeing how he passes right through the beams without getting hit by them as opposed to him flying around them.

As for Tomtom's scans I think there are more than enough scans for Superman phasing. There's one where he matches his vibrations to what's going on around him and him vibrating so fast he appears invisible. That makes for me 4 or 5 clear cases where Superman has vibrated through something. Supergirl doesn't count since she's not Superman.

Granted, I may be extending that same courtesy for Thor as well but Superman has several documented phasing cases as TomTom's blog shows. Not as much for speedblitzing I grant you but enough to be considered, moreso than Thor's energy absorption scans do, particularly in reference to the point made about sucking Superman's solar radiation out of his body.

Finally you've hit the nail on the head with the last paragraph as it's important to take a full range of scans and feats of what a character can do. Hell it's in the battle forum rules. As for the Superman point though, it is the case for New 52 Superman since the best lifting feats include lifting a submarine, benching the Earth for 5 days and stopping a falling aircraft carrier with WW. New 52 Superman doesn't have the range of feats Pre New 52 Superman does.

@sommyt: Thor didn't move Yggdrasil with ease. IMO holding tectonic planets together is a more impressive feat. Thor was created to be stronger than the Hulk but that's no longer the case. It was Hulk, not Thor, who broke Onslaught's armour. Hyperion beat Thor but fought Hulk to a standstill.

Book of Infinite Knowledge

Would love to see a scan of this. Can't find anything in google. I also read Thor once moved 20 planets but again can't find any scans.

@GypRosetti: f we start looking at Thors strenght feats vs the hulks Thor is far greater in strenght ...The midgard serpent wrapped around earth multiple time and could crush it Thor ovrpowers it breaks its grip and lifts it ....

The Odinsword Thor lifts a sword so large the weight could not be calculated by odin ..the god of wisdom ...then he hurls it thru a celestial ..go read on celestial armor and how durable it is...he has crumbled uru to dust with his hand the asgardian equivalent of adamantium ...

he pushed the world tree against its will the world tree holds the 9 realms earth is like a fruit on 1 of its branches ...

and the the stated

Book of Infinite Knowledge, a book that weighs the same as all life ever,..excellently said

Doomsday was not beaten due to phasing, read the panels, he was beaten due to fear. Superman did not bench Earth for 15 days, he supported the equivalent of Earth's weight for 5 days. You also forget he needed the help of Wonder Woman & MM to move Earth. Doomsday and Icon are stonger than Superman. DNcU Superman gets tanked by lightning. No one is stronger than Hulk in the Marvel Universe. Some may start on a higher or equal footing (Thor, Juggernaut, Silver Surfer) but as he gets madder he eventually surpasses them. Galactus MAY be stronger but as he always shoots down Hulk before he has a chance to attack we don't really know. As for Hulk he's held the tectonic plates of planets together twice, that trumps any of Superman's strength feats after the Silver age. Hulk's strength is immeasurable, Superman's isn't.

There may be a debate on whether Thor is faster than superman... Nut thors hammer is unquestionably faster. Thors hammer traveled the whole universe in 60 seconds. There are scans around here somewhere.

@Lvenger said:

@Fifthchild: Actually it is 3 times. Here are the first 2 and the third is in a fight with Mongul Jr and Mongal. I can't find the scan but on the Superman vs Goku Death Battle, it briefly shows up

Ok thats once as i count it. The first scan is the same thing happening a few times from the Doomsday issue i mentioned. The other scan is Superman vibrating so fast nobody could see him but says nothing as to whether he could vibrate through something.

I had a look at TomToms scans on his page. There was one scna that was by far the best example for the Superman-phasing case - the one where Supergirl explicitly phases through something by moving really fast. Eveything else there was on the same level as this more or less. There is one with a giant Mongul Jr firing beams that appear to go straight through him but is not at all clear whats going on there.

So for my money its happened once definitely for a member of the Superfamily, theres that ambiguous Doomsday scan and one that i'd have to see the surounding pages on to make any real comment.

To be more expansive I dont think its the worst thing in the world to invoke rarely shown abilities in a fight. The golden rule though is that if you do that then you extend the same courtesy to others which you appear to be doing here by allowing Thor the option that he might suck all the solar radiation out of Superman's body or something equally outrageous.

Still I think its really silly when the default approach to debate is to gather every single thing each character has ever done in decades of publishing, take every power no matter how many times used, find its highest showing and then use that to argue what they can and will do in a fight. Thats why things get so crazy when something like the scene with nu-Superman benching the Earth for 5 days happen - one throwaway scene changes everything about how people think about a character. Which is stupid.

@Kallarkz said:

Superman is much stronger than Thor.

Most of Thor's feats are taken out of context by fanboys and he has shown to be MUCH weaker in recent days.

this x 100

he just isnt strong anymore

@toptom: Well then you are a genius and a helpful one at that! :)

@Lvenger: i did it for that!

@toptom: I am so bookmarking your blog so I can pull out future Superman feats in debates.

@Lvenger said:

@Fifthchild: Actually it is 3 times. Here are the first 2 and the third is in a fight with Mongul Jr and Mongal. I can't find the scan but on the Superman vs Goku Death Battle, it briefly shows up

if you want you can find every scan of supes phasing on my blog:

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/toptom/blog/

@Kallarkz said:

Superman is much stronger than Thor.

Most of Thor's feats are taken out of context by fanboys and he has shown to be MUCH weaker in recent days.

this.

Superman is much stronger than Thor.

Most of Thor's feats are taken out of context by fanboys and he has shown to be MUCH weaker in recent days.

@sommyt: To answer what you've said in a PM here: Thor never showed he needed BILLS help..are u saying that the world engine feat is not true......as for the serpent ..the seprnt is lokis child and can change its form..so its form its not the point as its been a cat That was basicaly immovable or where it appears to be fing fang foom.... but lets just say ur right ..WHAT ABOUT THE ODINSWORD, LIKE WHEN SUPERMAN NEEDED WONDERWOMAN AND MARTIAN MANHUNTER TO MOVE THE EARTH ..BUT RECENTLY WAS BENCHING THE EARTH....ONCE AGAIN THE SERPENT COULD CHANGE ITS FORM WHILE STILL KEEPING ITS MASS AND WEIGHT

quote

The Midgard Serpent, although ethereal in nature, mystically holds the weight of earth (not to mention the weight of the serpent itself which is said to be one-third the mass of earth)"

Firstly it was Pre New 52 when Superman, WW and MM were moving the Earth together and the New 52 where he bench pressed the Earth. They're 2 different versions of the character. Secondly, just actually read and take in the information. Nothing happened to the blasted 9 worlds when Thor just pushes a wheel that shakes the 9 worlds a bit. So yes the world engine feat is most likely not true. And perhaps not though the strain in their faces cannot be denied. And where did you get that last quote from since it seems you're pulling at straws here?

@sommyt: I hope @Hyper_God doesn't mind if I borrow his debunking of the Midgard Serpant feat to counter your point:

DECONSTRUCTING THOR'S "MIDGARD SERPENT LIFTING" FEAT

As a number of posters on this site are aware, this particular feat of Thor has oft been used by Thorbags to insinuate that Thor's upperlimit in terms of physical strength is on a planetary scale :

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/123075/2757795-thorliftstheserpent.jpg

However, what Thor did there , and what a number of people on the battle forums have passed it to be , is similar to the assertion that Superman is capable of blowing planets with his heat vision, or holding them in his hand , based on these scans , where he is in the New Gods world, interacting with the normal(mainstream DC) universe . Similar statements regarding the New Gods can be made as well , based on this scaling up phenomenon :

Gallery

Now , to begin with , the Serpent didn't encoil Earth in normal space , it went into the Void(notice its size in Asgard-space , nowhere near continent , country or even city wide) :

Again , here the Serpent is mentioned to be in its ethereal form , in the regular Earth-Space :

That's why , as Thor mentions here , he'll have to venture to Asgard to deal with the Serpent there , as it was crushing Earth in normal space :

Once there , Thor coerces Hamir the Giant to help him travel by the former's ship to the Void between Earth and Asgard and uses the Hamir's Bull as a bait to fish out the Serpent :

Gallery

Now that all concerned parties are in the Void , its made (painfully so for the Thorbags) clear that the Serpent is nowhere near continent sized(let alone of planetary proportions) . In fact its of normal monstrous proportions relative to even Thor himself :

Gallery

In fact it is essentially stated by the narrative here that in the Void , space and time don't operate normally :

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/123075/2757859-voidsspacetimeunnatural.png

Within the context of Thor # 327(in which the above discussed feat takes place) , the Void(like the differently scaled New Gods Dimension that I showed as an analogical reference point in the beginning of my post) between Asgard-space and Earth-space doesn't follow the normal rules of space-time . Hence why despite being big enough to wrap up the whole planet within its coils while in the Void , the Midgard Serpent was still relatively small enough for Thor to use a mouth-fitting bull to fish it off from Earth . This is why the Serpent is , in proportion to Thor , roughly as big as what a Pleistocene era sea monster would be in comparison to a normal man .

To sum up : this feat is far less than what its been made out to be for so many years on the Comicvine Battle Forums . Its not even close to planetary-level strength .

And I'll quote CitizenBane's post on Thor's world tree feat here

In the actual comic, literally nothing happens to the nine realms. Thor pushes a wheel, which pushes the engine, which shakes the tree a bit and upsets the natural order, causing all Asgardians to become powerless. How on Earth anyone could read that and say "Thor pushed nine planets" with a straight face is beyond me. Asgard is one realm. The Oklahoma Asgard wasn't a planet, it was a city, and Thor needed help to lift it even though he had the damn Odin Force at the time.

Gallery

If Thor could actually push nine planets, he'd have lifted Asgard on his pinky.

So yeah that's your 2 best feats debunked. And for Hulk feats, go check out some of TheAcidSkull's blogs on Hulk's feats. That'll educate you more on Hulk's strength feats.

@Lvenger: if we start looking at Thors strenght feats vs the hulks Thor is far greater in strenght ...The midgard serpent wrapped around earth multiple time and could crush it Thor ovrpowers it breaks its grip and lifts it ....

The Odinsword Thor lifts a sword so large the weight could not be calculated by odin ..the god of wisdom ...then he hurls it thru a celestial ..go read on celestial armor and how durable it is...he has crumbled uru to dust with his hand the asgardian equivalent of adamantium ...

he pushed the world tree against its will the world tree holds the 9 realms earth is like a fruit on 1 of its branches ...

and the the stated

Book of Infinite Knowledge, a book that weighs the same as all life ever,

ALL THESE FEATS hulk cannot compare his strength feats to this ...the best the hulk has done is brace a 150billion ton mountain with help from jean grey and he stated he could not hold any longer ...

and held sakaar together all these pale in comparison to Thors feats .....do not mistake Thor holding back and not wanting to kill banner as a sign of him lesser than the hulk in strength

@boostergold321: Can you prove what you're saying to be true? Otherwise you're making an argumentum ad ignoratium, or an argument from ignorance which isn't a good argument.

@Lvenger

And yet, they aren't.

@boostergold321: That statement shows you miss the point of what the Speed Force is. From the Comicvine page for the Speed Force "The Speed Force is an energy source in the DC Universe generated by Barry Allen that lets speedsters travel at otherwise impossible speeds as well as do other nifty tricks without being hindered by physics" Note that physics and the laws of nature are basically thrown at the window in that statement.

@Lvenger

That there is "speed" and "force" show that comics do have real world applications. That stuff is the basic physics. Without that, there is nothing.

@boostergold321: Two words that show how all the real world applications don't mean a dime in DC: Speed. Force.

@Lvenger

Just because its fiction doesn't mean that nothing does and should make sense. There are real-world applications or we would have nothing to talk about.

And there is a difference between "magic" and "fluff-magic".

@boostergold321: There are 2 other instances that discredit your point though. My second one and the third one I cited. So yeah Superman has shown vibration abilities before. And really, the application of real world laws to the comic book world? Bar a few basic laws, it doesn't work like that. Your claim can't rest on that and as for Doomsday tagging MM, that was pure PIS. Furthermore Flash vibrates through things many times and doesn't blow them up so your scientific point falls flat. You should really stop trying to apply every scientific law to comic books as it really undermines your point. Comic books are works of fiction so many scientific laws are overlooked. Marvel and every other company are known for "the comicbook fluff magic" as well. That's why comics are comics.

@Lvenger

It looks like kind of like an animation affect. It looks like Superman side-stepping and leaving an after-image because he's moving so fast.

Vibrating in order to pass through something? If you vibrated to pass through something that's the same as brute force, force being proportionate to an object's speed, and he'd destroy whatever he "phased through" if it had less force/inertia than he did.

That isn't happening with Doomsday because he can match Superman's brute force. Superman could, however, "phase through" things easily by changing his density like Martian Manhunter.

Even if Superman had density shifting abilities, and he doesn't, Doomsday can probably still get him the same way he got Martian Manhunter.

I think your saying Superman can "phase through" things like the Flash but when Flash does that, whatever he phased through should blow up and if he doesn't have superior force/inertia to the object he wants to pass through then won't be able to pass through it.

People can force their way through things and nothing gets damaged? I guess that's the comicbook fluff-magic that DC is so known for.

The whole point of accelerating your own mass is to make force and therefore cause other things to accelerate, moving them out of the way by overwhelming with your own superior force. You can't leave something untouched and unmoved while moving it at the same time. That's a complete contradiction that defies all logic.

@Fifthchild: Actually it is 3 times. Here are the first 2 and the third is in a fight with Mongul Jr and Mongal. I can't find the scan but on the Superman vs Goku Death Battle, it briefly shows up

@Lvenger said:

3 or 4 times so it's enough to be a factor. He's not going to stand there and let Mjolnir hit him and I doubt there is a chance it can catch him. My point in that regard is if Mjolnir did catch him he could just vibrate through it.

I'm actually pretty sure its not even 3 or 4 times. In fact the only instance I know of is kind of dubious in and of itself. It was the time when Superman fought the newly intelligent Doomsday and there was a weird art effect on a few pages that has been interpreted by some fans as Superman "vibrating through Doomsday's punches". If you have any other scans to show Superman vibrating through things I'd be happy to see them though.

At any rate just to be clear - arguing a fight such as this over abilities that characters have failed to display in 99.9% of their appearances and that 99% of creators, fans etc would not recognise as legitimate abiilities is a really stupid way to approach things.

There still have been showings of Thor absorbing and redirecting energy though but since he hardly ever uses them unless fighting top tier foes, he doesn't tend to employ them.

Thor has a fairly regular track record of absorbing and redirecting energy that is fired at him or otherwise "free-floating" (though even in this case to be honest, its been a while). But he has only a handful, if that, of showings where he "sucks the energy out of someone".

Your argument is flawed in that the points you try to dispute such as my vibrational one and Mjolnir having a mind of its own are in fact tactics that the characters you say we're not representing accurately can utilise. Thor's instructed Mjolnir to fly on its own will on numerous occasions such as against a squad of Ugandan terrorists as well as recalling Mjolnir through the Thing's chest when he was Angrir during Fear Itself to deliver a fatal blow.

Its not something he has done "on numerous occasions". He did it once against Hulk and Namor in Avengers 3. The scene you mention from JMS' run at least had Thor throw Mjolnir but again thats not how the hammer has been shown to work in almost any other appearance. The scene with The Thing happened because Ben was standing in the path of return between Mjolnir and Thor.

OTOH there are thusands of occasions where it would have been tremendously useful if Thor could command Mjolnir to dance around at lightspeed where he was unable to. It would have been particularly useful all those times he was in danger of turning into Donald Blake because he couldn't get to Mjolnir in time.

The battle forum rules do state these kinds of tactics should not be discounted and those things mentioned aside from Superman fighting at light speed have enough regular occurrence to be valid in the battle. And certainly Superman's speed blitzing does have a place in the battle as the deciding factor in the battle.

Oh and after reading some of your other posts on here like this one "Hyperion recently held apart 2 universes. Not just puny planets. Universes. The force required to actually push them away from one another broke the Infinity Gauntlet.
After the universes exploded in his face Hyperion went on to fight the Hulk pretty evenly" is there any evidence to support the claim that Hyperion was the one who caused the Infinity Gauntlet to break by forcing the universes apart? Was Hyperion the cause of that particular instance in New Avengers #3?

Thats not what I am saying at all.

Hyperion held two universes apart in Avengers 4, stopping them from coming together for a time. The strain of actually pushing the universes}} away from one another was enough to destroy the Infinity Gauntlet in New Avengers 3. I'm not arguing that Hyperion somehow destroyed the Gauntlet.

@TrueMarvel:

;)

@toptom said:

@TrueMarvel said:

@toptom: You tell me to prove it yet you ignore the proof? You say superman has faster raw speed... how does that contradict what I said?

Raw Speed=Usian Bolt, Combat Speed= Bruce Lee.

Your scans are to be inferred. It is up to the reader to decide the supposed speed... my scans have the heroes themselves clearly stating and thus proving my stance. So... who needs to bring proof again? Me? or You?

...you seem to be unable to understand...uff..

supes has fought with wonderwoman like a million times and she has never demonstrated to be faster than him during theri fights.he has got the advantage in raw speed and he has obtained a faster brain,even faster than his previus one. however this is not ww vs supes and i will not talk about this anymore.

supes still wins.

Your points are moot without PROOF. get the scans or your just sprouting nonsense

@TrueMarvel said:

@toptom: You tell me to prove it yet you ignore the proof? You say superman has faster raw speed... how does that contradict what I said?

Raw Speed=Usian Bolt, Combat Speed= Bruce Lee.

Your scans are to be inferred. It is up to the reader to decide the supposed speed... my scans have the heroes themselves clearly stating and thus proving my stance. So... who needs to bring proof again? Me? or You?

...you seem to be unable to understand...uff..

supes has fought with wonderwoman like a million times and she has never demonstrated to be faster than him during theri fights.he has got the advantage in raw speed and he has obtained a faster brain,even faster than his previus one. however this is not ww vs supes and i will not talk about this anymore.

supes still wins.

superman....

and then everyone else...

thor used to be strong in the classic days....

now.... not so much

@Fifthchild:

1. 3 or 4 times so it's enough to be a factor. He's not going to stand there and let Mjolnir hit him and I doubt there is a chance it can catch him. My point in that regard is if Mjolnir did catch him he could just vibrate through it.
2. There still have been showings of Thor absorbing and redirecting energy though but since he hardly ever uses them unless fighting top tier foes, he doesn't tend to employ them.
3. Your argument is flawed in that the points you try to dispute such as my vibrational one and Mjolnir having a mind of its own are in fact tactics that the characters you say we're not representing accurately can utilise. Thor's instructed Mjolnir to fly on its own will on numerous occasions such as against a squad of Ugandan terrorists as well as recalling Mjolnir through the Thing's chest when he was Angrir during Fear Itself to deliver a fatal blow. The battle forum rules do state these kinds of tactics should not be discounted and those things mentioned aside from Superman fighting at light speed have enough regular occurrence to be valid in the battle. And certainly Superman's speed blitzing does have a place in the battle as the deciding factor in the battle.
4. Oh and after reading some of your other posts on here like this one "Hyperion recently held apart 2 universes. Not just puny planets. Universes. The force required to actually push them away from one another broke the Infinity Gauntlet.
   After the universes exploded in his face Hyperion went on to fight the Hulk pretty evenly" is there any evidence to support the claim that Hyperion was the one who caused the Infinity Gauntlet to break by forcing the universes apart? Was Hyperion the cause of that particular instance in New Avengers #3?