@JonesDeini: I will confess....my comic reading and collecting has dropped off a great deal since Civil War/House of M. I am glad to see Fury is getting more of the credit he is due. My viewpoint is largely framed by the fact that, until recently, Fury has not been portrayed to be as effective as Cap. I don't think that anyone can doubt that Fury surpasses Cap in leadership roles tied to his position as SHIELD director: strategy, politics, espionage, large scale organizational operations.
Fury is good with supers as well. He is definately on the short list of best tactician/field commanders in Marvel. But I think that leading small super-powered units is one area where even Fury cannot match Cap's experience.
Thanks for the Great Wheel alert. It is hard to imagine any goal which would get that group to work together given the hatred between SHIELD and Hydra. Is the Great Wheel disbanded?
I think it's strange that Ms. Marvel's rape by Marcus has been completely swept under the rug by both Marvel, The Avengers, & the fans but no one forgets that one time that Hank Pym backhanded Janet Van Dyne.
Marvel doesn't like to acknowledge sexual assault.....even if they put it in their stories. Sebastian Shaw's taking Storm's body while it was possessed by Emma Frost has also been forgotten. After all....if they remembered than Emma couldn't be retconned into a hero.
On the other hand....has Ms. Marvel ever encountered Immortus or Marcus again? There was a not quite encounter in the Kang Dynasty story.
@SleepyDrug: See I disagree I find Fury to be the better field leader as well. He lead those men into battle after battle during WWII, not Steve. He recruited those men and women (Steve included) to serve in S.H.I.E.L.D., He recruited one 3rd of the Great Wheel to his cause. Fury rally's men to his cause just as Steve does and has done so more often. Steve's lead the Avengers and a few other costumed outfits. Conversely Nick's lead the Howling Commandos, various other military units, S.H.I.E.L.D./Secret Warriors into missions. Fury can not only see in the 4th dimension, so to speak, but he acts effectively in the 3rd. As Steve said to him at the end of Secret Warriors, Nick Fury was the one man who could win a war with his will. I don't read Bendis' Avengers, but didn' Nick engineer the gathering of the Avengers?
I would agree that Fury was a better field leader during WWII. I'm not sure that he really recruited Cap to anything. Captain America joined SHIELD after being revived by the Avengers -- When Nick Fury was one of the few living people he knew. Cap outgrew SHIELD; and Fury had no argument that was able to keep Steve with the organization. I'm not sure what you are refering to as 1/3 of the Great Wheel or what vague other military units he lead. To my knowledge, he led the Howling Commandos and SHIELD. Despite Cap's words to Fury, I've never seen Fury portrayed as the Supreme General. Fury is good, even great, but not the unquestioned best from issues I've read. Marvel has done a better job of showing how good Fury is in recent years.
Fury is probably better as a field leader with regular military or SHIELD units -- trained soldiers -- under his command. I don't think Fury would be effective with a unit as unique as the Avengers. I actually think the Avengers would mutiny in response to Fury's hardline style of command. Cap is far better at commanding small units with a wide range of powers and skills....and strongly alpha-type personalities.
@SleepyDrug: Secret Warriors proves otherwise. As Cap was just another piece on the Fury's chess board, hell, even his "opponent" was in his pocket the whole time. And Cap acknowledges that It was Fury who kept the world safe from the shadows a lot more than he ever did in the field and I actually agree. And I'm not a fan boy of either character. Fury's always made the tough, unsavory decisions that Cap never can bring himself to. That's why he's more effective as "Top Cop" then Steve will ever be. Cap's great at leading field teams, but he's not a big picture thinker or planner. He's a soldier and always has been, sure he's charismatic and can inspire men to follow, but he's no general.
@MrUnknown: Word, man. Nail on the head. Any one who question's who's in charge should read Secret Warriors. I love how when Cap tells him he can't/won't allow Nick to do what he did again he just looks at him like "Sure kid, whatever".
I think if you go back and reread my comment....you will see we do agree. My point was this: Fury is better at the large picture aspects of global warfare. This would include managing an army or global intelligence organization, understanding politics, and devising organization level responses. Fury IS a "top cop" or "great soldier". Cap on the other hand is a superior leader. People want to follow Cap because it is Cap. Even villains respect Steve Rogers' honor and abilitity. On any field operation, troops on the ground - whether they are army soldiers or super-heroes - are more willing to follow Cap than Fury. This doesn't mean Cap's decisions are always better, just that they are more likely to be obeyed.
Therefore I see Fury as the Soldier: the ultimate embodiment of a uniformed service dedicated to protecting America and the World. And Cap is the Captain: the fighter that people will obey because of his charisma, honor, and the respect people have for him. Fury is a General....he does his best work back in Army (or SHIELD) HQ. Cap is the Captain....he does his best work in the field.
As for whether Cap or Fury as kept the world safer....I think that is entirely subjective. When you consider the massive threats Cap has stopped as leader of the Avengers against the multitude of threats Fury has stopped as leader of SHIELD....I'm not sure there is a definitive answer.
Barbara is iconic as Batgirl....but she grew past that during her time as Oracle. I was disappointed with Barbara's return to being Batgirl. It seems like a regression. I would have rather seen her supplant Katherine Kane as Batwoman or take an entirely new identity.
Steph is perhaps my favorite of the Gotham characters. But I just don't see her as Batgirl - to me...she's Spoiler. Steph is interesting because she is Steph. Cassandra really made the Batgirl identity her own.
It occured in Avengers #63 (part 3 of the Standoff storyline). A US Army division is given direct Presidential orders to bring down Thor & Iron Man to stop their fighting. Cap countermands the order, and the entire division drops into parade rest and salutes.
Cap and Fury are both top rate leaders. Fury probably knows more about politics, espionage, small unit tactics, and covert operations. Cap is a better at small unit tactics for superpowered fighters. Fury's leadership skills are better for running an organization. Cap's leadership skills are more inspirational and geared towards a small group. I disagree that Cap is something of a co-leader with Iron Man. Iron Man has ebbed and flowed in his authority with the Avengers; Waps has lead the team as much as Iron Man. But when the chips are down, Cap is the leader. If you look at full assemblies of the Avengers - the Morgan Conquest, Operation Galactic Storm, Secret Wars, Infinity Gauntlet, JLA/Avengers - it is always Cap who is given command.
Cap's WWII military rank is really besides the point. Cap received special, intensive training. He operated mainly on his own or with units called in for specific missions. Cap did not have the training or assignments of a typical lieutenant. Fury's military role was a bit more traditional, and then he served as a spy for decades.
Fury is used to having his orders followed because he has authority. Cap's orders are followed because HE gave them. Cap would be, and has been shown to be, a leader in virtually every situation he is in. Fury is a leader as much because of his rank as his ability. Fury is the soldier in this pair - he is defined by his unit as much as himself. Cap is the one everyone follows; he has grown past being just a soldier.
Cap also has the charisma of a true leader. He is seen as the supreme field commander by virtually every super-hero from the Avengers to the X-Men to the Justice League, and by the American military. Cap has even countermanded direct Presidential orders.
Fury has a great deal of leadership ability and experience, but Cap has clearly exceeded him.
@Cafeterialoca: I agree 100%. When did Marvel decide that Sharon Carter was going to be Steve's Lois Lane? Diamondback was rad, and we never got a solid resolution out of that character. Boo.
It was when Mark Waid took over from Gruenwald. Waid entirely dismantled and shifted to Comic Book Limbo every supporting cast character Gruenwald had used in the past 15 years (at least). Waid got rid of Diamondback, Bernie Rosenthal, Arnie Roth, Fabian Stankowitz, Free Spirit, Jack Flag, and more.
He then brought in Sharon Carter, and had Cap act like she was his perfect woman because they had a history together. This was in spite of the fact that Sharon had a totally different personality which was aggressive, cynical, and easily accepted killing in almost any situation.
I am totally uninterested in any version of the Winter Soldier. But it is probably inevitable.
Villains I do want to see: Arnim Zola (in some version of his cyborg body), Batroc the Leaper (probably Cap's best physical counter other than Crossbones), the Serpent Society, Hydra, or Baron Zemo. Arnim or Zemo easily fit into the role of a legacy type villain seeking revenge for Cap's beating Hydra in the '40s. Arnim (as a cyborg) would desire this personally, and Zemo can easily be introduced as the son or grandson of a Hydra officer. Batroc is a smooth fit as a hired hand. The Serpent Society or Winter Soldier make for a good physical tool with just a bit more explanation needed. Hydra makes sense with the explanation that it survived and rebuilt. Viper or Baron Strucker can easily serve as Hydra's new leader. If we get a disgruntled interim Cap....i'd rather see the Grand Director and Jack Monroe/Nomad than Nuke or USAgent.
Allies....it is obvious that Cap 2 will start with Cap working with SHIELD as he did in the 1960s and 70s. By this logic, we'll see Howling Commandos as SHIELD agents, Maria Hill, Fury, Sharon Carter, and maybe Hawkeye. Hawkeye and Cap's friendship is a major piece in the comics. The gang from Steve's apartment complex would be a nice drop-in (Bernie, Arnie, and the rest). I'd also love to see Sam Wilson, even if we're not likely to get him as the high-flying Falcon. On the other hand, since Cap will be in a world with Iron Man and Thor....why can't we have Falcon. Sam IS Cap's definitive partner in the modern world.
I don't think I want Marvel to be more like DC. I was more thinking of how they flirt with a common theme in comics. Marvel doesn't like side-kicks or grouping heroes just due to similiar abilities. But they have flirted with it in the past. Marvel's original books had the Human Torch and Toro, Captain America and Bucky, and even Namor had a sidekick. Then they moved away from this when Stan Lee came into the picture. But we soon saw the reintroduction of clear spin off characters in Namorita, She-Hulk, Wasp, Spider-Woman, Thor Girl, USAgent, and Thunderstrike to name a few.
I agree that Marvel shouldn't mimic DC in the sidekick-mentor paradigm or groups of similar powers. The groups I mentioned above really tended to derive from partnerships or attempted legacies. The point is that there are natural groupings here that have not really been explored. Captain America is a soldier and an ideal. One would think that he would embrace the opportunity to encourage and support those trying to follow his example. One might also think that he would be open to leading a small squad against his enemies that the Avengers are unsuited to facing. Finally, it would make sense that Cap - as a man out of time - would try to build a social network that he can relate to. Characters like Nomad, Falcon, Battlestar, and USAgent are potential friends as well as partners. They are also an opportunity to expand the number of people guarding the American Dream. These would seem to all be goals that Cap would embrace. But I always get the sense that Cap avoids all of that. Falcon may be the only character who has been both a friend and a partner to Cap within his own title on any sort of consistent basis.
@Wise Son I have read and own every issue of Captain America from about 225 of vol 1 to the end of vol 4. My collections of other Marvel titles is equally extensive. Cap takes partners but rarely maintains the type of partnership or friendships we see in DC families. Marvel has explored this concept. But it is usually brief.
I think NovaPrime has a good point about the lack of mentor-sidekick relationships in Marvel. That does tend to create a certain bond between characters. There are some exceptions like the Green Lanterns, but overall it is a good point.
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