SirMethos's forum posts

#1 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Apologies for the (very)late reply.

That said, let's get on with it:

"I'm 100% certain the 'gravity didn't change' is mentioned nowhere in the series, ever. Since your argument is based on it, I'm going to ask for proof. Because when something is damaged, it's gravity has to change, near compulsory."

1. You're right, flat out saying that "it didn't change", is claiming knowledge I don't actually have. I retract the statement and apologize for the misunderstanding. The correct statement would be that there is no indication that it(the gravity of the planet) ever changed.

"I don't have to. When an object that size attracts has 10x earth's gravity, there's no other explanation possible at all."

Not true. I have already given one possible, other, explanation.

And to repeat a statement I've made before(in this thread iirc), we're talking about a universe where the destruction of the Moon had no negative impact on the Earth, where the Moon has(or at least had) a breathable atmosphere, and where moving faster than sound doesn't generate sonic booms. That the real world laws of physics are not entirely valid, is pretty obvious. And "real world laws of physics" is the only thing that you seem to be basing your statement, about the correlation between mass and gravity, on.

In comparison, the explanation of "magic"(for the lack of a better word), seems far more reasonable, all things considered.

@mortein:

"I was under impression that when the Bills made the planet explode, it's core imploded and formed the extremely dense but tiny planet. Similarly like when a star explodes it leaves behind a neutron star, or a black hole.

But even if we grant the possibility that King Kai used the magic to increase the gravity of the planet, we need to take into consideration what kind of magic Kai's were shown to have.

Kai's were shown to be able to increase the mass of an object like here for example"

1. Just like princearagorn1, you seem to be basing your statements on real world laws of physics, which is silly at best.

2. No, the Kais were not shown increasing the mass, they were shown increasing the weight(there's a difference). How, exactly, they changed the weight, is information we are not actually given.

#2 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

@hunk said:

@spinnercomix:

I suggest you take a look at Iceman's current powerset. He does not have the ability to manipulate Ice, but Sub-Zero does. They can both project ice (as in create blasts of ice from their hands, or make the air around them freeze), but *only* Sub-Zero is listed as having the power to manipulate ice in any form. This means that if he ever *touches* bobby, he can turn bobby's powers against him. In addition, Bi-Han is FAR (and I mean FAR as in Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet vs Aunt May FAR) superior to Bobby in hand-to-hand combat. The fight would be over so fast, you wouldn't be able to blink. Even if Bobby where to hit Sub with a blast of ice, Sub only needs touch the Ice as it projects out of Bobby's hands to turn our Marvel hero into icedust.

Actually, Iceman can't just manipulate ice, he can manipulate moisture(which includes ice), he can also manipulate his own body down to a molecular(if not atomic) level.

It's absolutely true that Sub-Zero is so far superior in combat skills that it's not even funny, but Iceman is similarly superior to Sub-Zero in terms of their powers.

In terms of powers, Iceman can do everything that Sub-Zero can do, only better.

#3 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirmethos: no worries.

"Yes, the planet was originally 10 times larger than earth, then Beerus destroyed most of it(leaving the small planet that we see in the anime), and it's gravity didn't decrease."

That's practically impossible.

"It's not because of being more dense, or or having more mass. At best, it's magic."

This hasn't been mentioned, ever. The only reason to deviate from the standard explanation is if the manga says anything about the topic, which it doesn't.

Practically impossible, and yet that is exactly what we have been told.

King Kai's planet was 10 times larger than earth(explaining the gravity), then Beerus destroyed the majority of it, after losing a game of some kind. After Beerus destroyed the majority, the gravity didn't change.

Those are the facts we are presented with.

Now, I'll grant you that the explanation being "magic", is never actually given, but neither is it ever actually mentioned that the planet is denser than earth.

Considering that we're talking about a universe where the Moon has gravity and atmosphere, and gets destroyed(and restored) multiple times, and where people almost casually come back from death, the explanation being "magic" of some kind, is more plausible than expecting it to follow the 'real world' laws of physics.

That said, if you can actually point to a place where it is said that the planet is denser, then I'll concede that point.

#4 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirmethos:

Yea, not so much. I assume you are talking about King Kai's planet, which is not denser than earth

That planet is like... 100m or so, and has 10 times earth's gravity.

(though it is true that Goku punches Beerus through it).

No, it isn't. Goku tried to hit bills, who vanished.

Loading Video...

Apologies for the (very)late reply, I've been away and busy.

That said:

1. Yes, the planet was originally 10 times larger than earth, then Beerus destroyed most of it(leaving the small planet that we see in the anime), and it's gravity didn't decrease. It's not because of being more dense, or or having more mass. At best, it's magic.

2. My bad on that one, I remembered that punch wrong.

@dbzk1999: In that case, his argument is pure bullshit, since his argument is about the temperature.

As seen on the aftermath of Piccolo's blast, it's pure concussive force.

#5 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol.

Current Molecule Man doesn't have a chance.

The UN, in the hands of Richards, was capable of multiversal destruction(as seen during the whole thing with Abraxas), MM doesn't even come close to that, unless my memory is completely off.

#6 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

@primehunter9000:

Both companies create their more powerful heroes, in ways that allow them to essentially be as powerful(or weak) as the plot of the story demands it, the difference lies in the methods they use.

Marvel tends to go with "potential". Such as Hulk, who gets stronger the angrier he is, or Gladiator who gets more(or less) powerful, the more(or less) confident he is, or Sentry, who gets more/less powerful the more/less stable-minded he is, Nate Grey, who can tap into the nigh-infinite energies of the Astral Plane to empower himself, Silver Surfer, who can draw more deeply into the Power Cosmic if he needs it, etc.

DC on the other hand, tends to use the "holding back" method. Essentially their heroes(and villains) are always holding back to some degree. Like Superman, who has several mental self-limiters, Captain Atom(pre-flashpoint), who was mentally limiting himself due to fear of his own power. Or people like Flash, who actually seems to be unaware of their full potential, and only tap into it on occasions where conscious thought is put on the side-line, such as Flash evacuating an entire city, after a nuclear weapon detonates, in split seconds. No time for conscious thought, just action.

For Marvel, this means that their 'low showings' can generally be explained by the character not tapping deeply enough into their potential, such as Hulk not being angry enough, while their high-end showings, can be explained by the characters drawing more deeply on their potential.

For DC, it means that their 'low showings' are generally due to the characters holding back, while their higher end showings, are due to the characters letting lose more of their power.

Generally, the difference in methods means that the DC low showings tend to be more quickly labeled as PIS, since it's harder to explain why someone would hold back, or simply 'forget' to let lose, when they are losing.

The end result, for matches such as the ones we do here on CV, is that DC characters tend to be more powerful(DC has a tendency to start out as ridiculously overpowered, while Marvel starts out moderately powerful, and just dips in to the ridiculous when the plot demands it).

There are exceptions, of course(Thor, to give an example), but this is just an explanation of the general tendencies.

#8 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

Either a huge mismatch, or intentional spite match.

Dr. Manhattan doesn't have any chance whatsoever, Spectre is in an entirely different level of power.

#9 Posted by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

Mismatch. Thor rips him apart.

#10 Edited by SirMethos (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

@etheral_dreams:

You have a few statements that you need to back up.

"1. Various characters have been shown to react or dodge Kamehameha waves over the course of the series, and those attacks are able to reach the sun in seconds, making them FTL."

I don't suppose you have canonical proof of this?

"However, by end of DBZ Goku can easily blitz people with FTL reactions."

Proof? Remember to prove that they have FTL reactions, not just that he can blitz them.

"Another example is Raditz being able to dodge Piccolo's Masenko beam which IIRC was the attack he used to blow up the moon instantly (making it FTL)."

It takes 5-6 seconds from Piccolo fires the Masenko, 'till the moon starts exploding. It only takes 1.3 seconds for light to travel from the moon to the earth. That sets the Masenko at being about 3-4 times slower than light.

"Also, several characters including early DBZ Goku have reacted or kept up with people who can react to Solar Flare, a technique that literally projects intense, omni-directional light."

Actually, every single case of that, has been people 'reacting' before the Solar Flare is actually fired.

"2. Trading countless blows with Kid Buu who could match his SSJ3 form. Remember that in SSJ3, Goku rather easily punched through a planet several hundred times denser than Earth on account of much smaller size but far higher gravity (this happened during Goku's first fight with Beerus in Battle of Gods, which is canon.) This is a clear feat that requires no power scaling."

Yea, not so much. I assume you are talking about King Kai's planet, which is not denser than earth(though it is true that Goku punches Beerus through it).

If you are not talking about King Kai's planet, then I'd love to hear what you actually are talking about.

"SSJ1 Goku could also counter the force of final form Frieza's Death Ball (first form easily Frieza blew up a planet 10x the size of Earth with a death ball, and FFF is several hundred times stronger) with a punch, and sent it flying light years away where it blew up a Jupiter like planet upon impact. This happened of course during his fight with Frieza."

How, exactly, is this a durability feat?

The destructive power of the Death Ball comes when it actually detonates, which didn't happen until (as you pointed out) it hit a jupiter like planet, after Goku batted it away.

This is more of a Ki-control feat, and a pretty impressive one at that.

"3. Being more durable than people who can survive in the middle of a nuclear detonation (which reach temperatures far above the heat at the Sun's core, though briefly) since the Dragonball days."

It might just be that my memory is playing tricks on me, but I don't remember any nuclear explosions in DB/DBZ. I don't suppose you can prove it?

"Superman has never destroyed a planet, yet we put him at that level, at the very least."

Not true. During Crisis he destroyed Earth 2.

"And to those who claim DBZ is inconsistent, it is still far more more consistent than DC, at least when it comes to Superman."

But in DC's case, at least when it comes to Superman, they have actually given an in-universe explanation for his seemingly varying power levels.

"One minute he's being KOd by the moon, the next by a supernova (a feat which doesn't even make any sense considering Supes is amped by radiation, which supernovae release immense amounts of)."

Actually it makes plenty of sense. 1. The supernova is portrayed (whether correctly or not) as an explosion, which contains concussive force, as well as radiation, etc. And it is the concussive force that knocks Superman unconscious. The possibility of getting overloaded, may also be a factor.