The State of Hellblazer in the dawn of the DCU taking everything

I've ranted and raved how much I hate the new powers that be at DC, when I got into comics it was about the story at DC, not the money.  With Johns recontting everything to make the DCU really "Geoff Johns' universe", Vertigo has be hit hard by it.  Madame Xanadu was canceled so Amy Hadley could draw Batwoman, which seemed like a poor investment with the many false starts the new Batwoman series has had.  Swamp Thing has returned to a breed of comic readers who didn't know who he was before the hype.  Shade The Changing man is going back to the Ditko origin that no one cares about and now I am told Hellblazer is no longer a subscription title.

Why would Hellblazer be dropped as a subscription?  Is it because Dan Didiot finally cried for all the toys back that he has ripped away Vertigo's flagship character?  Hellblazer may not sell fables numbers, but Hellblazer has history and literal magick within the pages.  I really hope the foolish management at DC keeps John in the universe he belongs in.  John did not work in the DCU since most people didn't understand his "messiah" role and he has changed from that when he got his own book.  To this day John Constantine really is a "in the know character", when guys like Warren Ellis has adapted the Constantine archetype for many of his stories.  Many acclaimed writers and artist have worked on John one way or anther.  By bringing him back to the DCU, DC comics his hurting his character and that is not what Didiot understands since he wants all comics accessible and easy to digest.

Above I mentioned magick within the pages, and magick it does.  The Columbine shooting happened after Shoot was written and illustrated.  Tim Bradstreet's brother in law who was the model of John for Bradstreet's covers past away when Bradstreet left the covers.  Alan Moore has claimed to meet John in bars in london, and in issue #120 John has met Alan Moore.  Those are just examples of how Hellblazer has mirrored life.  If DC cancels Hellblazer for greed, I can see them sealing their own death.  Wonder why they may be losing Superman?  The Gods have not favored DC comics since they left 666 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY.  The head office where they made their deals with the devil in the first place.

DC Comics does not understand how important Vertigo is and John Constantine to Vertigo is like Superman to the DCU, Spider-man to 616, Spawn to Image and Witchblade to Topcow.  Each universe needs their linchpin and John Constantine is that for Vertigo, Constantine has pushed the medium in ways the mainstream is still catching up too.  To dumb down his character and bring him back to the DCU would be the equivalent of DC Comics peeing on their future burial grounds.  By not respecting Constantine, DC Comics is welcoming companies like Image to steal readers like me. 

Cheers
 - Silkcuts

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Edited by turoksonofstone

I agree with you. My belief is that the success of Marvel's properties in Film is the root cause, going back to the First Spider-Man film. I think the Powers that be at DC have been under pressure to produce similar results, strange since Time Warner should realize it's comic wing (DC) needs to focus on Comics and the Comics audience and has nothing to do with film. I believe the lack of success DC has had with their film properties (excluding Batman) has resulted indirectly in the recent editorial decisions and in-house re-structuring. Because of $hit-a$$ oversight the Hellblazer movie was a travesty, and re-introducing Vertigo's hero's to the DC mainstream smacks of more $hiity editorial oversight. DC is doing it to themselves.

Posted by Silkcuts
@turoksonofstone:  Even Batman is "cursed" it seems with the third movie likely to suck since Heath's Joker was originally important to it.  Instead of focusing on comics DC forgot what the "DC" stands for.  Only Morrison's Batman do I really rave about and even then that is because it is Morrison, he writes on a level where he has no peers in the mainstream.

Swamp Thing in the DC makes no sense to me since how many "new" green lantern fans know who he is?  Yes Geoff Johns has brought in a new following of comic readers, but these readers don't need to have every old character pushed on them.  if Hellblazer is on the brink of cancellation, then DC really doesn't know what they are doing. Those who read Flash would not care about John Constantine in the way where he is written best.
Does DC really want John in the DCU?  It didn't work in Teen Titans.
Edited by turoksonofstone
@Silkcuts said:

" @turoksonofstone:  Even Batman is "cursed" it seems with the third movie likely to suck since Heath's Joker was originally important to it.  Instead of focusing on comics DC forgot what the "DC" stands for.  Only Morrison's Batman do I really rave about and even then that is because it is Morrison, he writes on a level where he has no peers in the mainstream.

Swamp Thing in the DC makes no sense to me since how many "new" green lantern fans know who he is?  Yes Geoff Johns has brought in a new following of comic readers, but these readers don't need to have every old character pushed on them.  if Hellblazer is on the brink of cancellation, then DC really doesn't know what they are doing. Those who read Flash would not care about John Constantine in the way where he is written best.

Does DC really want John in the DCU?  It didn't work in Teen Titans. "

When you put it that way it does indeed seem like a curse. Good Lord, he would have been awesome in that next film. Brightest Day has left me with a bad taste in my mouth too. You and I aren't "new" Green Lantern fans so I guess its to be expected.  Honestly I really don't see Hellblazer being even remotely as compelling a character in the mainstream DCU. Going to Image does seem a bit rash, it's all a grand cycle and the Constantine we know will return ...eventually.
Posted by Silkcuts
@turoksonofstone:  I dropped the GL series after Blackest Night and Brightest day never sold me from people's reviews.  The DCU has become a soap opera.

John in the DCU is not as entertaining because he was suppose to be mysterious. This is why Delano fleshed him out not Alan Moore.

BTW... was my comment on the old address an interesting point?
Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir
@Silkcuts: I will personally laugh my ass off if someone at any point actually refers to John as "Hellblazer".
Posted by turoksonofstone
@Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone:  I dropped the GL series after Blackest Night and Brightest day never sold me from people's reviews.  The DCU has become a soap opera.John in the DCU is not as entertaining because he was suppose to be mysterious. This is why Delano fleshed him out not Alan Moore.BTW... was my comment on the old address an interesting point? "
It seems like the "pace" of both Marvel and DC has picked up in the current era leaping from one end-all event to the next. I miss the pace of the mid 80's comics...
He belongs in a Vertigo branded book. period.
666 Fifth Ave. NYC that is one hell of an address...

Posted by Silkcuts
@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts: I will personally laugh my ass off if someone at any point actually refers to John as "Hellblazer". "
A believe a demon or two have.  could be wrong, its been a while since I read the older stuff.
Posted by Silkcuts
@turoksonofstone said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone:  I dropped the GL series after Blackest Night and Brightest day never sold me from people's reviews.  The DCU has become a soap opera.John in the DCU is not as entertaining because he was suppose to be mysterious. This is why Delano fleshed him out not Alan Moore.BTW... was my comment on the old address an interesting point? "
It seems like the "pace" of both Marvel and DC has picked up in the current era leaping from one end-all event to the next. I miss the pace of the mid 80's comics...
He belongs in a Vertigo branded book. period.
666 Fifth Ave. NYC that is one hell of an address...

"
I wonder if there is a market who would read a fictional story of course, of DC Comics making a deal with the devil ans creating vertigo... lol
This is why Batman has the "Demonic" tone in older 80s stories where they were in that location.  Such as issue 400 of Batman written by Doug Moench and cover by Bill Sienkiewicz.  I mentioned that since I am rereading that along side the Big Book of the 70s, both I plan to review soon.
Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir
@Silkcuts said:
" @Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts: I will personally laugh my ass off if someone at any point actually refers to John as "Hellblazer". "
A believe a demon or two have.  could be wrong, its been a while since I read the older stuff. "
I find that hilarious for some reason.....
Edited by turoksonofstone

I wonder if there is a market who would read a fictional story of course, of DC Comics making a deal with the devil ans creating vertigo... lol                
You must read Maximortal by Rick Veitch!!!!!!!!!!
Looking forward to those Reviews!

Posted by Silkcuts
@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts: I will personally laugh my ass off if someone at any point actually refers to John as "Hellblazer". "
A believe a demon or two have.  could be wrong, its been a while since I read the older stuff. "
I find that hilarious for some reason..... "
Don't blame you, it sounds off... I like JC or just John personally.
Posted by Silkcuts
@turoksonofstone said:
" I wonder if there is a market who would read a fictional story of course, of DC Comics making a deal with the devil ans creating vertigo... lol                
You must read Maximortal by Rick Veitch!!!!!!!!!! Looking forward to those Reviews! "
I am behind on my Veitch reading, but if I don't have it, then I will buy it on your recommendation ^_^
I know I have Brat Pack and the three books adapted from his dreams as well as heart burst, maximortal I don't think I have.
Edited by turoksonofstone
@Silkcuts: If you read one thing on my recommendation let this be it. 
I recommended Tyrant too. I have not read it yet I hear,  Hes currently doing his own heroes from the old Image series 1963.
Maximortal even goes into the Superman/DC thing you shall be tripped out.
Posted by Silkcuts
@turoksonofstone said:
" @Silkcuts: If you read one thing on my recommendation let this be it. 
I recommended Tyrant too. I have not read it yet I hear,  Hes currently doing his own heroes from the old Image series 1963.
Maximortal even goes into the Superman/DC thing you shall be tripped out. "
^_^
You got me excited.  I need to read more Veitch, he is an underrated writer.  People talk about Moore's Swamp Thing, but what about Veitch? he made Tefe and co-wrote the cross-over into Hellblazer with Delano, another underrated writer.
Posted by turoksonofstone
@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts: I will personally laugh my ass off if someone at any point actually refers to John as "Hellblazer". "
A believe a demon or two have.  could be wrong, its been a while since I read the older stuff. "
I find that hilarious for some reason..... "
@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts: I will personally laugh my ass off if someone at any point actually refers to John as "Hellblazer". "
@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts: I will personally laugh my ass off if someone at any point actually refers to John as "Hellblazer". "
HELLBLAZER. 

@Silkcuts: 
You cannot be half as excited as I am for the inevitable review.
Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir
@Silkcuts said:
" @Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Silkcuts: I will personally laugh my ass off if someone at any point actually refers to John as "Hellblazer". "
A believe a demon or two have.  could be wrong, its been a while since I read the older stuff. "
I find that hilarious for some reason..... "
Don't blame you, it sounds off... I like JC or just John personally. "
There's this guy Chris Sims who works over at Comics Alliance, he was joking about John actually interacting with Batman and Superman.
Edited by johnny_spam

You and I had some differing opinions on these characters in the past but I do agree John has little value in the DCU unlike his other former Vertigo buddies they were heavily involved in the DCU when John just spoke to Swamp Thing and maybe the Trench coat Brigade he has very specific roles in his own book that may not fit in the DCU.

I was not convinced that John would return to the DCU but some have been speculating that this is John.
 

It's a very sad and worrisome state Vertigo is in which is why I cling to the news of Spaceman by Brian Azzarello and Eduardo Russo or Sean Murphy's project. I read more Vertigo comics when I was getting into the media so I get worried about it. But it makes sense the publishing world is just that much smaller then when Vertigo started up as are comics like Dark Horse firing so many employees or Tokyopop closing in America and I see many the crap that the big 2 pull are just trying to get older people to read again in some misguided attempts many say good comics are all that is needed but it does not seem that way as they tend to be the books that sell less.  

Posted by longbowhunter

I love DC and I love Vertigo. That being said keep them at a respective distance from one another. Silkcuts, I know how big of a Hellblazer fan you are so I'm really sorry to hear this. And while I'm interested to see Swamp Thing interact with the DCU I know he is a better fit in the realm of Vertigo. Keep your chin up Silk!!
Online
Posted by entropy_aegis

Hardy/Bane will top Ledger/Joker MARK MY WORDS.
Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus

As was said in the pages of Origins and Omens prior to Blackest Night, these events make me start to believe that "something wicked this way comes."

Posted by Final Arrow
@Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone:  Even Batman is "cursed" it seems with the third movie likely to suck since Heath's Joker was originally important to it.  Instead of focusing on comics DC forgot what the "DC" stands for.  Only Morrison's Batman do I really rave about and even then that is because it is Morrison, he writes on a level where he has no peers in the mainstream.

Swamp Thing in the DC makes no sense to me since how many "new" green lantern fans know who he is?  Yes Geoff Johns has brought in a new following of comic readers, but these readers don't need to have every old character pushed on them.  if Hellblazer is on the brink of cancellation, then DC really doesn't know what they are doing. Those who read Flash would not care about John Constantine in the way where he is written best.
Does DC really want John in the DCU?  It didn't work in Teen Titans. "
Oh god I tried so hard to cut that from my memory... 
Posted by Silkcuts
@johnny spam said:
" You and I had some differing opinions on these characters in the past but I do agree John has little value in the DCU unlike his other former Vertigo buddies they were heavily involved in the DCU when John just spoke to Swamp Thing and maybe the Trench coat Brigade he has very specific roles in his own book that may not fit in the DCU.

I was not convinced that John would return to the DCU but some have been speculating that this is John.
 It's a very sad and worrisome state Vertigo is in which is why I cling to the news of Spaceman by Brian Azzarello and Eduardo Russo or Sean Murphy's project. I read more Vertigo comics when I was getting into the media so I get worried about it. But it makes sense the publishing world is just that much smaller then when Vertigo started up as are comics like Dark Horse firing so many employees or Tokyopop closing in America and I see many the crap that the big 2 pull are just trying to get older people to read again in some misguided attempts many say good comics are all that is needed but it does not seem that way as they tend to be the books that sell less. "
Your right that good comics is not enough anymore.  I think many comic readers forgot the semiotics in comics and the layers that can be found in comics.  Many readers like the hype, but never really understand the raw awesome potential of comics, my latest example of it was my Morning Glories review.  There is not enoug people who push the medium anymore.  If John would return, I want his mandate tougher then Superman where only guys like Morrison, Milligan, Gaiman, Ennis, Diggle, Azz, Ellis, BKV, Carey, etc... meaning at one period of time they wrote him in a good story.

I really hope that "shadowy figure" is not John.  It makes sense.... but not a huge fan of the idea.   
Posted by aztek_the_lost

what the f@#k!!! NOOOOOOO!


the series has just been getting better and better, you can't kill it now...#300...Milligan needs to take it to 300, kill off John Constantine permanently and then make an agreement with DC that JC will never be resurrected! Hellblazer was the only book in the Vertigo line to predate the imprint, it's the longest-running comic (that I know of) that began in the Modern Age of Comics, why would you throw that away?
Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost said:
" what the f@#k!!! NOOOOOOO!

the series has just been getting better and better, you can't kill it now...#300...Milligan needs to take it to 300, kill off John Constantine permanently and then make an agreement with DC that JC will never be resurrected! Hellblazer was the only book in the Vertigo line to predate the imprint, it's the longest-running comic (that I know of) that began in the Modern Age of Comics, why would you throw that away?
"
DC Comics doesn't know what to do with themselves so they are getting desperate instead of smart.  So that is why they can consider pissing on history.  I mentioned to you that JC in Milligan's book is being explored as having alternate versions and never know, I could be overreacting....  HB may hit 300, then strictly go OGN after that point with that John as a certain Canon and pre-vertigo "messiah" John back in the DCU as his own canon, heck they can have the Golden Boy, since John cut him free anyway.  All I know that HB is a series I would not F with since strange things have happened dealing with " synchronicity", ending HB may equal ending DC Comics.  So they are are stupid to roll those dice then the new powers at be do not know the real power of the medium.

@Final Arrow said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone:  Even Batman is "cursed" it seems with the third movie likely to suck since Heath's Joker was originally important to it.  Instead of focusing on comics DC forgot what the "DC" stands for.  Only Morrison's Batman do I really rave about and even then that is because it is Morrison, he writes on a level where he has no peers in the mainstream.

Swamp Thing in the DC makes no sense to me since how many "new" green lantern fans know who he is?  Yes Geoff Johns has brought in a new following of comic readers, but these readers don't need to have every old character pushed on them.  if Hellblazer is on the brink of cancellation, then DC really doesn't know what they are doing. Those who read Flash would not care about John Constantine in the way where he is written best.
Does DC really want John in the DCU?  It didn't work in Teen Titans. "
Oh god I tried so hard to cut that from my memory...  "

Sorry to rip-open that memory with the rude awakening of TEEN TITANS!!!!!

@RedheadedAtrocitus said:
" As was said in the pages of Origins and Omens prior to Blackest Night, these events make me start to believe that "something wicked this way comes." "

Pre-Vertigo John, John I wouldn't argue was wicked.  He was the "Great neutralizer" or messiah archetype.  His role was to great balance, no matter to what side.  I don't think Johns has the skills to write John that way, only few can do it well. 

@longbowhunter said:
" I love DC and I love Vertigo. That being said keep them at a respective distance from one another. Silkcuts, I know how big of a Hellblazer fan you are so I'm really sorry to hear this. And while I'm interested to see Swamp Thing interact with the DCU I know he is a better fit in the realm of Vertigo. Keep your chin up Silk!! "

Swamp Thing I can deal with since he was highly involved in the DCU.  John was always awkward when we saw him in things like Guy Gardner and Teen Titans.  He never really ever fit outside the fringe universe.

@entropy_aegis said:
" Hardy/Bane will top Ledger/Joker MARK MY WORDS. "

That is a tall order and if that is all you picked up from my blog, then I'll let you believe whatever you like.
Posted by entropy_aegis
@Silkcuts:
Nah i just feel Ledger gets more praise than due,same goes for TDK as a whole.
Posted by Silkcuts
@entropy_aegis said:
" @Silkcuts: Nah i just feel Ledger gets more praise than due,same goes for TDK as a whole. "
I agree with that, Ledger was great, but not my joker.  If Ledger did not die I don't believe people would praise it to the same level, it would get acclaim sure, but not the the same level.  I am a fan of the Tim Burton Batman movies, so may be that is my bias. "I seen the future and it works".
Posted by aztek_the_lost

the thing that pisses me off the most about this is Milligan is writing a better -at least by sheer consistency in quality- Hellblazer run (IMO) then the book has ever had in its twenty years (and its been written by pretty much all of the best)...I guess they're trying to pull Milligan out of Vertigo, cancelling Greek Street far too soon and with his upcoming books in the DCU...this blows =/

Moderator
Posted by jloneblackheart

I'm still waiting to see why Madame Xanadu was cancelled. You needed her SO bad DC, where is she???

Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost said:
" the thing that pisses me off the most about this is Milligan is writing a better -at least by sheer consistency in quality- Hellblazer run (IMO) then the book has ever had in its twenty years (and its been written by pretty much all of the best)...I guess they're trying to pull Milligan out of Vertigo, cancelling Greek Street far too soon and with his upcoming books in the DCU...this blows =/ "
I am happy for Milligan, but he writes better when he is not mandated to write of the mainstream.  His best books are the Vertigo and Marvel Knight stuff. 

@jloneblackheart said:
" I'm still waiting to see why Madame Xanadu was cancelled. You needed her SO bad DC, where is she??? "

I am pretty sure it is not the character they wanted, just the artist, and an artist who hasn't seen much work with all of Batwoman's false starts.  Dumb move on DC, Wagner could of had another two arcs at least.
Posted by aztek_the_lost
@Silkcuts said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" the thing that pisses me off the most about this is Milligan is writing a better -at least by sheer consistency in quality- Hellblazer run (IMO) then the book has ever had in its twenty years (and its been written by pretty much all of the best)...I guess they're trying to pull Milligan out of Vertigo, cancelling Greek Street far too soon and with his upcoming books in the DCU...this blows =/ "
I am happy for Milligan, but he writes better when he is not mandated to write of the mainstream.  His best books are the Vertigo and Marvel Knight stuff. 

@jloneblackheart said:
" I'm still waiting to see why Madame Xanadu was cancelled. You needed her SO bad DC, where is she??? "
I am pretty sure it is not the character they wanted, just the artist, and an artist who hasn't seen much work with all of Batwoman's false starts.  Dumb move on DC, Wagner could of had another two arcs at least. "
I guess I always thought Milligan didn't want to be mainstream but it's probably a better place to be, money-wise so after a few decades in the background I don't see why he doesn't deserve mainstream, I just think it won't be as good as the rest of his work (like Hellblazer!)

as for thoughts on Madame Xanadu...my thoughts on the possible reasons for ending the book:

  • Amy Reeder Hadley: even if they just wanted Amy, it's ridiculous to cancel the series...for one thing, lots of artists can carry more then one book at a time, based on the fact she's way ahead with Batwoman means she's probably one of them, J.H. Williams is just an artist who can't even handle one monthly, he needs to do OGN's and stuff...also, even if Amy can't handle more then one book, she only ever did the art for a little over half the issues, Matt Wagner encourages the use of other artists if his work on SMT and Shelly's post on Vertigoblog back when Extra-Sensory was coming out about how he wanted a different new female artist for each issue have anything to say about it
  • Sales: as has been shown in the past when looking at the sales figures, the book was doing well and books from the imprint doing worse are still continuing
  • DC-Owned Property: the idea that DC was taking back all its properties can be proposed, but since then new material outside of ongoings using DC-owned material have been published (City of Demons) and two ongoings continue(d)...Hellblazer and House of Mystery...sure, they're fates may be sealed but Madame Xanadu surely could have continued on another year or two if those books can
  • Madame Xanadu Herself: they aren't using the character but even if they were, her comic was establishing her history, not her present and would have no ramifications on whatever she's doing in current events...as for the idea that people who see her in a current DC book and go get this being confused, well why should they be confused, it's just some of her history, you'd think that'd be exactly what they want if they're trying to learn more about her, you can't find stuff about her past anywhere else at DC

In conclusion, there is no valid reason or as of yet it has not been proposed.
Moderator
Edited by The Lobster
@Silkcuts said:

" @johnny spam said:

" You and I had some differing opinions on these characters in the past but I do agree John has little value in the DCU unlike his other former Vertigo buddies they were heavily involved in the DCU when John just spoke to Swamp Thing and maybe the Trench coat Brigade he has very specific roles in his own book that may not fit in the DCU.

I was not convinced that John would return to the DCU but some have been speculating that this is John.
 It's a very sad and worrisome state Vertigo is in which is why I cling to the news of Spaceman by Brian Azzarello and Eduardo Russo or Sean Murphy's project. I read more Vertigo comics when I was getting into the media so I get worried about it. But it makes sense the publishing world is just that much smaller then when Vertigo started up as are comics like Dark Horse firing so many employees or Tokyopop closing in America and I see many the crap that the big 2 pull are just trying to get older people to read again in some misguided attempts many say good comics are all that is needed but it does not seem that way as they tend to be the books that sell less. "
Your right that good comics is not enough anymore.  I think many comic readers forgot the semiotics in comics and the layers that can be found in comics.  Many readers like the hype, but never really understand the raw awesome potential of comics, my latest example of it was my Morning Glories review.  There is not enoug people who push the medium anymore.  If John would return, I want his mandate tougher then Superman where only guys like Morrison, Milligan, Gaiman, Ennis, Diggle, Azz, Ellis, BKV, Carey, etc... meaning at one period of time they wrote him in a good story. I really hope that "shadowy figure" is not John.  It makes sense.... but not a huge fan of the idea.  "
Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm willing to bet a high amount of cash that the shadowy figure is indeed John Constantine. Just look at him. The way his arms are posed, where the light source is coming from, the obvious trench coat flap around the neck. That's a man in a trench-coat lighting a cigarette. Second of all the solicitations state that this new character has relationships to Swamp Thing. Do you know any other trench-coat wearing smokers who know Swamp Thing?

Also Bleeding Cool has stated that John Constantine is indeed returning to the DCU, he's going to have a small appearance in the Flashpoint tie in Lois Lane series. He's in the background of the front cover.

Personally I have no problem with John Constantine in the DC universe, just as long as he's well written. How many DC character have appeared in his series? Phantom Stranger, Zatanna, The Spectre are the ones I can remember. So obviously he's in that universe. If the series get's moved to a DC print, I have no problem with it as long as it's written well. As for the mature rating stuff...the only real difference might be that all his sex scenes will be covered up with shadows or hands being placed somewhere, and his swearing will come out as "#@$^!&"

As for the series being canceled, well I sure as hell hope it makes it to at least issue #300 and have them cancel it on a high note. I know for sure that the series is going to make it to #281 with no signs of stopping. If I was to take an educated guess, I'd have to say that they are going to cancel it at #300, then start a new series at DC instead of Vertigo.

PS - Also they aren't using the Steve Ditko Shade The Changing Man, their using the Peter Milligan one. Again another Flashpoint Tie In.  
Posted by johnny_spam
Peter Milligan said that John would return to the DCU but it will have no bearing on his own stories in Hellblazer. I know some prefer no Constantine in the DCU at all but this is probably the best compromise if it means the regular title continues. What makes me question things is if he is coming back in most likely a Flashpoint series Abnett and Lanning are good writers and sure the Lois Lane series will take place in Europe but why not let  Milligan's Secret Seven have use of John so it is one writer with both takes? I do not understand the reasoning behind the subscription thing in the July solicitation it shows the story having no sign of reaching some series ending. Though someone else on the DCU boards said that Justice League was not in the subscriptions either could be nothing could be something.
Posted by Silkcuts
@The Lobster :  With Geoff Johns having his fingers in the mix I can't imagine John being written well, Since Johns leans towards his personal preferences, which does not always pay proper respect to the characters involved.

@johnny spam:  The Compromise makes sense, since business is business... I just can't imagine the use of John benefiting Flash point in any level.
Edited by The Lobster
@Silkcuts said:

" @The Lobster :  With Geoff Johns having his fingers in the mix I can't imagine John being written well, Since Johns leans towards his personal preferences, which does not always pay proper respect to the characters involved.

From what I see, Geoff won't be writing John Constantine. Just providing the event for which he comes back into the DCU

The Search for Swamp Thing is written by Jonathan Vankin, and the Lois Lane series will be written by Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning.

So Geoff's fingers won't be touching John at all, as far as I can see.
Posted by pikahyper

I don't see why JC can't be in both universes. Marvel hasn't had a problem having characters under multiple imprints at the same time with regular 616, Ultimate, Noir and Max books so DC should be able to pull it off just having a regular DCU version and a Vertigo version. As for confusing readers I haven't seen anyone confused by Marvel's multiple versions so that really shouldn't be a problem.

Moderator
Posted by Roxanne Starr
@Silkcuts:

" @Silkcuts said:
...The Search for Swamp Thing is written by Jonathan Vankin... "

 
Big Book of the 70's Anthology, written by Jonathan Vankin.
Posted by Silkcuts
@The Lobster said:
" @Silkcuts said:

" @The Lobster :  With Geoff Johns having his fingers in the mix I can't imagine John being written well, Since Johns leans towards his personal preferences, which does not always pay proper respect to the characters involved.

From what I see, Geoff won't be writing John Constantine. Just providing the event for which he comes back into the DCUThe Search for Swamp Thing is written by Jonathan Vankin, and the Lois Lane series will be written by Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning. So Geoff's fingers won't be touching John at all, as far as I can see. "
Thanks again for the info.  The event still doesn't sit well with me.  Most people didn't agree with my stand on Death back in the DCU.  All I know is that most people who will be reading those two comics have nowhere near the relationship I have with John.  That is like making Bruce Wayne Batman Vertigo Batman and Dick Grayson DCU Batman.  The Bruce fans will be in uproar, mind you Morrison is the greatest Bruce writer in my opinion and Morrison is also one of Vertigo's best.

@pikahyper said:
" I don't see why JC can't be in both universes. Marvel hasn't had a problem having characters under multiple imprints at the same time with regular 616, Ultimate, Noir and Max books so DC should be able to pull it off just having a regular DCU version and a Vertigo version. As for confusing readers I haven't seen anyone confused by Marvel's multiple versions so that really shouldn't be a problem. "

Your right that multiple versions can work since it does with Marvel.  John I believe is the only exception to this rule since his character is special when looking at north american characters, the fact that he ages in real time alone gives him something (a freedom) no other characters really have.  Having clones of him running around in the DCU, I feel hurts his 25 years or real time growth.

@Roxanne Starr said:
" @Silkcuts:

" @Silkcuts said:
...The Search for Swamp Thing is written by Jonathan Vankin... "

 
Big Book of the 70's Anthology, written by Jonathan Vankin.
"
I am aware ^_^
He is writing brilliantly on it btw.  He was also a Vertigo editor, so she does "understand" Swamp Thing, because he was the editor of The Un-men if I remember correctly.  I just think bringing Vertigo back to the DCU is a step back on what Vertigo was doing in the first place.  Vankin just makes the situation a little easier to swallow.
Posted by Roxanne Starr
@Silkcuts said:
@Roxanne Starr said:
" @Silkcuts:

" @Silkcuts said:
...The Search for Swamp Thing is written by Jonathan Vankin... "

 
Big Book of the 70's Anthology, written by Jonathan Vankin.
"
I am aware ^_^He is writing brilliantly on it btw.  He was also a Vertigo editor, so she does "understand" Swamp Thing, because he was the editor of The Un-men if I remember correctly.  I just think bringing Vertigo back to the DCU is a step back on what Vertigo was doing in the first place.  Vankin just makes the situation a little easier to swallow. "
You know more statistics about modern comic books than just about anyone, Silk.

Heck, you probably know a lot more about the projects that I have worked on than I do.
Posted by pikahyper
@Silkcuts said:
" @pikahyper said:
" I don't see why JC can't be in both universes. Marvel hasn't had a problem having characters under multiple imprints at the same time with regular 616, Ultimate, Noir and Max books so DC should be able to pull it off just having a regular DCU version and a Vertigo version. As for confusing readers I haven't seen anyone confused by Marvel's multiple versions so that really shouldn't be a problem. "

Your right that multiple versions can work since it does with Marvel.  John I believe is the only exception to this rule since his character is special when looking at north american characters, the fact that he ages in real time alone gives him something (a freedom) no other characters really have.  Having clones of him running around in the DCU, I feel hurts his 25 years or real time growth.

What if he is an almost completely different character though? Different back story, different "powers", just a character loosely based on JC that looks similar but doesn't destroy his long standing Vertigo history. The target audience for a DCU JC will not be the same as a Vertigo JC so if they changed him drastically but kept the same powerful magic user premise it should be fine, similar to how the Vertigo Sandman/Morpheus is completely different from the standard classic DCU Sandman, mutually exclusive characters but when needed they have been linked when it serves a purpose.
Moderator
Posted by Roxanne Starr
@pikahyper:  

Hi, Pika!

When it all gets down to comic book storyline analysis...it's hard to win an argument with Silk. He knows everything.  :-)
Posted by pikahyper
@Roxanne Starr:  lol I know, I just like giving him something to think about :P If DC was smart they would do it like I mentioned in that previous post having two different characters with the same premise and some similarities and that is all so it doesn't destroy years of history and its fanbase but of course DC isn't smart so it won't happen :(
Moderator
Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir

Posted by Roxanne Starr
@Emperor Gonzo Noir:

LOL! Where did you find that, Emp?
Posted by Silkcuts
@Roxanne Starr:  You are too kind, I just tend to read stuff others seem not to.  No way I know more about projects you have done, you perfected the Big Numbers page.  I knew the basics.

@pikahyper said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @pikahyper said:
" I don't see why JC can't be in both universes. Marvel hasn't had a problem having characters under multiple imprints at the same time with regular 616, Ultimate, Noir and Max books so DC should be able to pull it off just having a regular DCU version and a Vertigo version. As for confusing readers I haven't seen anyone confused by Marvel's multiple versions so that really shouldn't be a problem. "

Your right that multiple versions can work since it does with Marvel.  John I believe is the only exception to this rule since his character is special when looking at north american characters, the fact that he ages in real time alone gives him something (a freedom) no other characters really have.  Having clones of him running around in the DCU, I feel hurts his 25 years or real time growth.

What if he is an almost completely different character though? Different back story, different "powers", just a character loosely based on JC that looks similar but doesn't destroy his long standing Vertigo history. The target audience for a DCU JC will not be the same as a Vertigo JC so if they changed him drastically but kept the same powerful magic user premise it should be fine, similar to how the Vertigo Sandman/Morpheus is completely different from the standard classic DCU Sandman, mutually exclusive characters but when needed they have been linked when it serves a purpose. "

There have been different versions, none ever caught on.  The Bad Blood John for example, with the scar on the current Vertigo version, it is impossible for the Bad Blood John to be the "Dark Knight Returns" John.  The Books of Magick: Life during Wartime "Lord Constantine" couldn't help keeping that series from getting canceled.  I did enjoy the C.O.D. John with blood with the power to tainted instead of heal, but having that John in its own universe, I am unsure if it could have the same depth of storytelling potential as Vertigo John.  DC doesn't really do alt versions well.  All-star Superman was just a maxi.  All-star Batman.... we all know what happened there.  Most Elseworlds are forgotten.  Alt DCU characters just don't have the same impact.  When I feel in love with the DCU, it was because it was about the stories and the mediums potential, while Marvel went the other direction to sell the characters, rather then the stories.   DC's current problem is they forgot their roots and is trying to copy Marvel's methods.

@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
"
"

This what if cover scares me.....
Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir
@Roxanne Starr: Over at Comics Alliance. com, They have great articles and are faster with news than the Vine. But they don't have the great people here.


Posted by pikahyper
@Silkcuts said:
" There have been different versions, none ever caught on.  The Bad Blood John for example, with the scar on the current Vertigo version, it is impossible for the Bad Blood John to be the "Dark Knight Returns" John.  The Books of Magick: Life during Wartime "Lord Constantine" couldn't help keeping that series from getting canceled.  I did enjoy the C.O.D. John with blood with the power to tainted instead of heal, but having that John in its own universe, I am unsure if it could have the same depth of storytelling potential as Vertigo John.  DC doesn't really do alt versions well.  All-star Superman was just a maxi.  All-star Batman.... we all know what happened there.  Most Elseworlds are forgotten.  Alt DCU characters just don't have the same impact.  When I feel in love with the DCU, it was because it was about the stories and the mediums potential, while Marvel went the other direction to sell the characters, rather then the stories.   DC's current problem is they forgot their roots and is trying to copy Marvel's methods. "
Isn't that kind of the point though, a DCU version of JC doesn't have to last, of course he won't have the depth potential but he won't be traipsing around the DCU for more then a few months probably, they only used Death for a single issue didn't they? Swamp Thing probably won't last long, at most they will give him a four issue mini and it won't sell well just like all Swamp Thing volumes and he'll disappear again. It's completely insane that DC would destroy 20+ years of a characters history and cancel his book just to use him in the DCU for a couple months and forget about him.
Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Roxanne Starr: Over at Comics Alliance. com, They have great articles and are faster with news than the Vine. But they don't have the great people here.


"
Someone is a suck up ^_^

@pikahyper said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" There have been different versions, none ever caught on.  The Bad Blood John for example, with the scar on the current Vertigo version, it is impossible for the Bad Blood John to be the "Dark Knight Returns" John.  The Books of Magick: Life during Wartime "Lord Constantine" couldn't help keeping that series from getting canceled.  I did enjoy the C.O.D. John with blood with the power to tainted instead of heal, but having that John in its own universe, I am unsure if it could have the same depth of storytelling potential as Vertigo John.  DC doesn't really do alt versions well.  All-star Superman was just a maxi.  All-star Batman.... we all know what happened there.  Most Elseworlds are forgotten.  Alt DCU characters just don't have the same impact.  When I feel in love with the DCU, it was because it was about the stories and the mediums potential, while Marvel went the other direction to sell the characters, rather then the stories.   DC's current problem is they forgot their roots and is trying to copy Marvel's methods. "
Isn't that kind of the point though, a DCU version of JC doesn't have to last, of course he won't have the depth potential but he won't be traipsing around the DCU for more then a few months probably, they only used Death for a single issue didn't they? Swamp Thing probably won't last long, at most they will give him a four issue mini and it won't sell well just like all Swamp Thing volumes and he'll disappear again. It's completely insane that DC would destroy 20+ years of a characters history and cancel his book just to use him in the DCU for a couple months and forget about him. "

by pimping both John and Swamp Thing for a short time insults what those to represented at Vertigo, alt versions or not.
Posted by pikahyper
@Silkcuts:  very true but better to have a second throwaway cut up version in the DCU then to lose JC completely at Vertigo
Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@pikahyper said:
" @Silkcuts:  very true but better to have a second throwaway cut up version in the DCU then to lose JC completely at Vertigo "
AS a compromise it is the most mature thing to do, but it is a compromise that should never have happened.
Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir
   
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