Silkcuts top 5 Overrated and Underrated (Writers edtion)

Top 5 Overrated

  1. Brian Michael Bendis  - Loved and Hated by many at the same time.  I wonder how many would still love him if he was no a Marvel writer?  I feel his only level of success as a writer was work on Marvel.  Sure he did have his Image work, but when it boils down to it, would you save "Fire" for a fire?  I would of linked "Fire" to help with my pun but that was killed when I noticed that there was no page to it.  I guess people only care about Bendis' Marvel work after all, who cares about his indie work after powers. 
  2. Judd Winick - I admit this maybe harsh without reading Pedro and Me, but its because of Pedro and me I placed him at number two.  Maybe I can't find it, but do we even have Pedro and me as a page on the vine? He is a reality star who still won't stop acting like we still care.  She his Power Girl hasn't gotten the series canceled yet, but look how many people dropped it because of him. He is maybe DC comics weakest writer.
  3. Mark Millar - I am not saying I am not a fan of him.  I am just saying he is overrated.  The dude is on the top of many peoples list and all he is really good at is self promoting. I enjoy a lot of his work, but he is Grant Morrison's student and I still don't think he can touch his master in creation comparison.  At a Con in Toronto I even heard Barry Kitson say "Mark, yeah he is special, he just wants to be famous".  Millar is a great writer, but his heart is in it for the wrong reasons.
  4. Neil Gaiman - This is strictly talking comics.  Like my argument with Millar, Gaiman was the student of Alan Moore.  Sure Gaiman has the Sandman Universe, but how many of us really know how much Moore influcend that world.  Even "Gaiman's Cain and Abel" are Moore's version from Swamp Thing.  It was Alan Moore who created the constant killing of Able in the DCU. I do love Neil Gaiman, but his name on comics sell because he is a Rock Star.  A friend of mine was only interested in Wednesday comics because of the Gaiman story, which was great but not the reason to read Wednesday comics alone.
  5. Garth Ennis - I know I'll get flack for this, but if you think about it it is true.  After Preacher Ennis has become formulated.  You can see the difference in his writing drastically between Hellblazer and Preacher.  Hellblazer had a heart to it I think Ennis lost, in which Ennis used John Constantine to preach his " true faith" and push his creative writing talent.  With Preacher, most people read it because it was cool.  I am still convince Preacher is in Hellblazer's universe and " Genesis" is Ellie's baby.  Ennis is all about shock, which he still pumps out fun great tales, but what really new is he doing?  Even his war books get ignored by his fans if there is not enough gore.  How many of his fans have read Enemy Ace?  Honestly.

Top 5 Underrated

  1. Alan Moore - It is easy to say Alan Moore is your fave writer if that is all you know and then many of those people change their minds to other writers because they stop after being introduced to comics because of a Moore book (like Watchmen) and then go on to something different.  There are people who hate Alan Moore because he refuses to work in superheros anymore.  There are people who hate Alan Moore because they believe the negative publicity DC feeds us, that idea Alan Moore is a bitter old man who hates everything.  I don't know all the reasons why there is beef between the two, but its between them. Part of the reason Alan Moore is the most celebrated writer in comics is because of his importance to comics.  If he is not your honest favorite writer, odds are he is your favorite writer's favorite writer.  Warren Ellis and Grant Morrison are too other Vertigo vets that have found influence on their writing besides the mentioned above Neil Gaiman.
  2. Peter Milligan - I was talking to Aztek one day because we both are reading Hellblazer right now.  Aztek said "Peter Milligan is the invisible backbone of Vertigo", no words have ever been so true.  Many people still don't know who Peter Milligan is because he'll appear and disappear just as quickly either way when dealing with mainstream comics.  Not everyone has read Shade or X-Statix and you all should!  From the British Invasion he hasn't blown up to the level many of his peers has.  His writing is just as brilliant and layered as Grant Morrison, but Morrison had the Invisibles which solidified his rep.  Peter Milligan can be as perverted as Ennis, but because Extremist or Minx was not Preacher, he is overlooked again.  There is so much great Milligan work, yet not enough love for the man.
  3. Kyle Baker - A man I hope you have read something from.  Gifted with both ability to write and create wonder images, Kyle Baker is master of the graphic narration.  Most of his famous works were at Vertigo and that fact that most of them only saw one printing means not enough people have read his work.  He has created for Marvel, DC and Image comics and has had fun work like the short lived Plastic Man to powerful researched literature pieces like King David.  In honesty I loved Wednesday Comics and from all the stories Hawkman was my favorite.  It was exciting, it made me laugh, it was a solid read.
  4. Joshua Dysart - Why does he keep going Vertigo if they won't let him do anything past 25 issues.  The boy can write, yet he gets no love or respect.  Unknown Soldier should of not be canceled so quickly when it was winning awards.  If you haven't read a Dysart Vertigo book, you should try it out. Heck Dysart is so unloved that on Comicvine he still doesn't have a picture displayed on his page.
  5. Eddie Campbell - Famous as one of Alan Moore's go to artist, Eddie Campbell knows how to create comics.  After From Hell odds are you haven't read anything else by him... that is assuming you read From Hell of course.  Eddie Campbell has written a little bit of Captain American and Batman, but how many people really read those short work.  Eddie Campbell's flaw is he is too Independent and only fans of graphic narration, which should not be confused to just comics, would follow his work.  In the Alec omnibus Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Warren Ellis are quoted to praise the Alec series in which many comicviners I am sure haven't read, since I have slowly been adding there pages.
 
Don't take my overrated list as a hate list.  I love many of the writers I placed there.  Heck I rank Gaiman as my 4th fave writer... I know that is too high, but I loved Sandman and the universe he created. What has he done for me lately?
 
This list is meant to make people think about comic talent and popularity.  I could of added Ellis on the overrated list because he gives up on projects too much, but then I can also argue that he is prolific.  No one was safe on my list, it was honest opinion.  Heck I love Azzarello, if I made it a top 10, he likely would be on the 10 of Overrated because all he can do well is Crime, Westerns and Batman.  Frank Miller is off the list because he is not high no most people's list nowadays. Grant Morrison is high on most people's list as he should be, so he was safe on my list.
 
Feel free to tell me your lists and why you would list people that way.
Cheers
 - Silkcuts
159 Comments
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Posted by emerald_lamp_2814

you sould make this a top 10if you already have the list
Posted by Jotham

You think Alan Moore is underrated? He's so highly rated. Kyle Baker is awesome, though.

Posted by Silkcuts

maybe, I'll test out how this one went.
@emerald lamp 2814:  So how was the list? agreeable. Disagreeable. fun idea?

Posted by emerald_lamp_2814

I agreed for the most part
Posted by Silkcuts
@Jotham said:
" You think Alan Moore is underrated? He's so highly rated. Kyle Baker is awesome, though. "
I say that because a lot of people say "I love Alan Moore", but who acutally has read the ABC work, Swamp Thing, the random Marvel and DC stuff he wrote etc. Most fans don't list him as a fave if they read other writers, those that do list him as fave because they only know him.  It is more underrated because he is more then Watchmen and V for Vendetta.  Promethea is my favorite work in the last 5 years from him. 
Posted by Silkcuts
@emerald lamp 2814 said:
" I agreed for the most part "
cool cool :D So who did I get wrong?
Posted by aztek_the_lost

It seems like a reasonable list to me, obviously there's a few I disagree with personally but that's from personal preference, everyone's list will be different. I can see why you chose what you did but that doesn't mean I'd choose the same.

Moderator
Posted by emerald_lamp_2814

I don't think that Alan Moore is underrated but you did state your reason
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost:  :D so who is missing, so I can work on a top 10 :D
Posted by Silkcuts
@emerald lamp 2814:  I am glad both you and Jotham think Moore is not underrated. :D  Gives me hope that people still read him.
Posted by Caligula
@Silkcuts: 
 
Aztek can tell you im probably the biggest Alan Moore fan on this site. and he is not Underrated as far im concerned, i don't think he is Overrated either though, I think he is deserving of the position he is at.
Posted by emerald_lamp_2814
@Silkcuts:
I do agree that Millar is overrated everything he is doing is being made into movies and in my opinion those storys are just being edgie for the sake of being edgie 
Posted by Silkcuts
@Caligula:  :D I didn't take you as a Moore fan.  
I just not on comicvine his page and the related pages are not up kept as much as something like a Grant Morrison page.
I had to add the Maxwell the magic cat, birth caul, snakes & Ladders and even the fictional character.  I didn't see as much love on the Vine like you guys are telling me he has.
 
I love Alan Moore and so much of this stuff related on the vine is not maintained.  So I am glad you guys are telling me different.  I may omit him for the future top 10... lol Top Ten...  list.
Posted by Caligula
@Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  :D I didn't take you as a Moore fan.   I just not on comicvine his page and the related pages are not up kept as much as something like a Grant Morrison page. I had to add the Maxwell the magic cat, birth caul, snakes & Ladders and even the fictional character.  I didn't see as much love on the Vine like you guys are telling me he has.  I love Alan Moore and so much of this stuff related on the vine is not maintained.  So I am glad you guys are telling me different.  I may omit him for the future top 10... lol Top Ten...  list. "
yep biggest Moore fan here. and like i said it's not just me that will say that. just ask Aztek.
 
Swamp Thing, Watchmen, and From Hell are my favorites in that order. but i have liked everything he has done. I actually recommended Promethea to Aztek.
Posted by Silkcuts
@emerald lamp 2814 said:
" @Silkcuts: I do agree that Millar is overrated everything he is doing is being made into movies and in my opinion those storys are just being edgie for the sake of being edgie  "
Millar knows what sells, like Ennis with is books.  They have formulas that work.  I ain't mad at them, because the work can be enjoyble, but really... is it anything new?  Millar's imprint Millarworld.tv or whatever it is has a few great books like Chosen, but because it doesn't bring in boatloads of money it is abandoned like War Heroes.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Caligula:  So I got you guys saying Moore is loved.  I want to see the Bendis fans tell me where Moore places in their list.
Posted by Caligula
@Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  So I got you guys saying Moore is loved.  I want to see the Bendis fans tell me where Moore places in their list. "
Bendis fans don't deserve to breathe. lol. jk
Posted by Silkcuts
@Caligula said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  So I got you guys saying Moore is loved.  I want to see the Bendis fans tell me where Moore places in their list. "
Bendis fans don't deserve to breathe. lol. jk "
I think that is why we get along.  We both are huge Moore fans.  Heck if it wasn't for Alan Moore there would be no John Constantine.  And we agree Bendis is the most overrated writer.
Posted by Caligula
@Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  So I got you guys saying Moore is loved.  I want to see the Bendis fans tell me where Moore places in their list. "
Bendis fans don't deserve to breathe. lol. jk "
I think that is why we get along.  We both are huge Moore fans.  Heck if it wasn't for Alan Moore there would be no John Constantine.  And we agree Bendis is the most overrated writer. "
very much so on both points sir.
Posted by aztek_the_lost

Well I can't think of too many your missing off the top of my head...though I think Matthew Sturges is underrated only in that I feel his co-writing with the great Willingham has just made everyone write off his good stuff as being Bill's but the guy has been the sole writer of House of Mystery for a while now and I've liked the new stuff moreso then I did the old (though I loved that too)...I just wish I knew who wrote what aspects of Jack of Fables because there are some I like better then others
 
as for things I disagree with on your list...
 
but Judd Winick overrated? Does anyone even know who he is? I certainly don't...apart from Blood + Water (which had three of the best issues I've ever read to begin with and then two of the most cliche and predictable to conclude)
 
then Neil Gaiman and Garth Ennis I wouldn't call overrated (or underrated) because everything I've read from them I've loved thus far and until that changes their respect seems well-deserved...until I read something of there's that I don't like I'll feel that way
 
and then Alan Moore in my opinion is the most overrated writer in comics and I will argue it until my dying day...I do read his stuff...but I think he's overrated entirely...he's famous because he was in the right place at the right time...he's a great writer in the way Stan Lee is...not because of the actual caliber of the stories but because he was their in the early stages revolutionizing things...do I think he made a great impact and is responsible for the emergence of many of my favorite writers? yes. do I think he's a better writer then all the writers he paved the way for? Not even slightly. his writing is fine and he had a few hits but overall not so much...the most recent thing of his I read was Black Dossier...slow, predictable and gimmicky...that sums up the entire story in a nutshell...my favorite part was the comic history of Orlando which in all reality had nothing to do with the comic itself...I don't feel that's a good thing...I think people should read his comics so they can judge him for themselves which is why I intend to read everything of his I can get my hands on but I don't like when people say (like Babs did in that video for people new to comics and hundreds of others do) that everything by Alan Moore is pure gold and should be treasured, that's a complete load...even his biggest fan (Caligula) doesn't absolutely love everything he does but reviewers continue to proclaim everything of his the best around

Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@Caligula said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  :D I didn't take you as a Moore fan.   I just not on comicvine his page and the related pages are not up kept as much as something like a Grant Morrison page. I had to add the Maxwell the magic cat, birth caul, snakes & Ladders and even the fictional character.  I didn't see as much love on the Vine like you guys are telling me he has.  I love Alan Moore and so much of this stuff related on the vine is not maintained.  So I am glad you guys are telling me different.  I may omit him for the future top 10... lol Top Ten...  list. "
yep biggest Moore fan here. and like i said it's not just me that will say that. just ask Aztek.  Swamp Thing, Watchmen, and From Hell are my favorites in that order. but i have liked everything he has done. I actually recommended Promethea to Aztek. "
I know now you read the main Moore books and that is why you love him like me.  Aztek has never read his Swamp Thing and that is an example of why Moore is underrated.  Everyone gets to Neil Gaiman's Sandman, but no one reads Swamp Thing.  Swamp Thing is the roots to my namesake on comicvine. No one reads Rick Veitch or Jamie Delano, too guys I was tempted to up on the underrated list.  Those two are Moore influenced.  Moore is your favorite writer's favorite writer if he is not your favorite writer already.  So that is why I think he is underrated, everyone should have him in there tops list and have him there for the right reasons.  Like reading his Superman/Supreme stories and books like WORM.
Posted by aztek_the_lost
@Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  :D I didn't take you as a Moore fan.   I just not on comicvine his page and the related pages are not up kept as much as something like a Grant Morrison page. I had to add the Maxwell the magic cat, birth caul, snakes & Ladders and even the fictional character.  I didn't see as much love on the Vine like you guys are telling me he has.  I love Alan Moore and so much of this stuff related on the vine is not maintained.  So I am glad you guys are telling me different.  I may omit him for the future top 10... lol Top Ten...  list. "
yep biggest Moore fan here. and like i said it's not just me that will say that. just ask Aztek.  Swamp Thing, Watchmen, and From Hell are my favorites in that order. but i have liked everything he has done. I actually recommended Promethea to Aztek. "
I know now you read the main Moore books and that is why you love him like me.  Aztek has never read his Swamp Thing and that is an example of why Moore is underrated.  Everyone gets to Neil Gaiman's Sandman, but no one reads Swamp Thing.  Swamp Thing is the roots to my namesake on comicvine. No one reads Rick Veitch or Jamie Delano, too guys I was tempted to up on the underrated list.  Those two are Moore influenced.  Moore is your favorite writer's favorite writer if he is not your favorite writer already.  So that is why I think he is underrated, everyone should have him in there tops list and have him there for the right reasons.  Like reading his Superman/Supreme stories and books like WORM. "
actually, my sole reason for not reading Swamp Thing is this (and believe me you'll think it's a stupid reason when you here it)...I can't stand jumping into a series at the middle even if the publisher themself tells me to disregard the first 19 issues I can't do that...so since those aren't collected or acclaimed I'm going to have to find a time and desire when I feel up to getting them
 
I forced myself to plough through the 18 issues of Doom Patrol pre-Morrison before I read the collected trades of his work because I wanted to know exactly what he was revolutionizing...and let me assure you, what he had to work with was not much so I can now appreciate his run all the more...but yeah, I don't not read Swamp Thing because it's Moore...it's because I like to start at the beginning
Moderator
Posted by Caligula
@Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  :D I didn't take you as a Moore fan.   I just not on comicvine his page and the related pages are not up kept as much as something like a Grant Morrison page. I had to add the Maxwell the magic cat, birth caul, snakes & Ladders and even the fictional character.  I didn't see as much love on the Vine like you guys are telling me he has.  I love Alan Moore and so much of this stuff related on the vine is not maintained.  So I am glad you guys are telling me different.  I may omit him for the future top 10... lol Top Ten...  list. "
yep biggest Moore fan here. and like i said it's not just me that will say that. just ask Aztek.  Swamp Thing, Watchmen, and From Hell are my favorites in that order. but i have liked everything he has done. I actually recommended Promethea to Aztek. "
I know now you read the main Moore books and that is why you love him like me.  Aztek has never read his Swamp Thing and that is an example of why Moore is underrated.  Everyone gets to Neil Gaiman's Sandman, but no one reads Swamp Thing.  Swamp Thing is the roots to my namesake on comicvine. No one reads Rick Veitch or Jamie Delano, too guys I was tempted to up on the underrated list.  Those two are Moore influenced.  Moore is your favorite writer's favorite writer if he is not your favorite writer already.  So that is why I think he is underrated, everyone should have him in there tops list and have him there for the right reasons.  Like reading his Superman/Supreme stories and books like WORM. "
i'll agree his superman run was great.
 
but his Supreme stories were only average. they didn't suck. I don't think anything he did sucks. but Supreme was only ok.
Posted by Caligula
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  :D I didn't take you as a Moore fan.   I just not on comicvine his page and the related pages are not up kept as much as something like a Grant Morrison page. I had to add the Maxwell the magic cat, birth caul, snakes & Ladders and even the fictional character.  I didn't see as much love on the Vine like you guys are telling me he has.  I love Alan Moore and so much of this stuff related on the vine is not maintained.  So I am glad you guys are telling me different.  I may omit him for the future top 10... lol Top Ten...  list. "
yep biggest Moore fan here. and like i said it's not just me that will say that. just ask Aztek.  Swamp Thing, Watchmen, and From Hell are my favorites in that order. but i have liked everything he has done. I actually recommended Promethea to Aztek. "
I know now you read the main Moore books and that is why you love him like me.  Aztek has never read his Swamp Thing and that is an example of why Moore is underrated.  Everyone gets to Neil Gaiman's Sandman, but no one reads Swamp Thing.  Swamp Thing is the roots to my namesake on comicvine. No one reads Rick Veitch or Jamie Delano, too guys I was tempted to up on the underrated list.  Those two are Moore influenced.  Moore is your favorite writer's favorite writer if he is not your favorite writer already.  So that is why I think he is underrated, everyone should have him in there tops list and have him there for the right reasons.  Like reading his Superman/Supreme stories and books like WORM. "
actually, my sole reason for not reading Swamp Thing is this (and believe me you'll think it's a stupid reason when you here it)...I can't stand jumping into a series at the middle even if the publisher themself tells me to disregard the first 19 issues I can't do that...so since those aren't collected or acclaimed I'm going to have to find a time and desire when I feel up to getting them  I forced myself to plough through the 18 issues of Doom Patrol pre-Morrison before I read the collected trades of his work because I wanted to know exactly what he was revolutionizing...and let me assure you, what he had to work with was not much so I can now appreciate his run all the more...but yeah, I don't not read Swamp Thing because it's Moore...it's because I like to start at the beginning "
yeah we've had this conversation already :D
Posted by aztek_the_lost
@Caligula said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Caligula:  :D I didn't take you as a Moore fan.   I just not on comicvine his page and the related pages are not up kept as much as something like a Grant Morrison page. I had to add the Maxwell the magic cat, birth caul, snakes & Ladders and even the fictional character.  I didn't see as much love on the Vine like you guys are telling me he has.  I love Alan Moore and so much of this stuff related on the vine is not maintained.  So I am glad you guys are telling me different.  I may omit him for the future top 10... lol Top Ten...  list. "
yep biggest Moore fan here. and like i said it's not just me that will say that. just ask Aztek.  Swamp Thing, Watchmen, and From Hell are my favorites in that order. but i have liked everything he has done. I actually recommended Promethea to Aztek. "
I know now you read the main Moore books and that is why you love him like me.  Aztek has never read his Swamp Thing and that is an example of why Moore is underrated.  Everyone gets to Neil Gaiman's Sandman, but no one reads Swamp Thing.  Swamp Thing is the roots to my namesake on comicvine. No one reads Rick Veitch or Jamie Delano, too guys I was tempted to up on the underrated list.  Those two are Moore influenced.  Moore is your favorite writer's favorite writer if he is not your favorite writer already.  So that is why I think he is underrated, everyone should have him in there tops list and have him there for the right reasons.  Like reading his Superman/Supreme stories and books like WORM. "
actually, my sole reason for not reading Swamp Thing is this (and believe me you'll think it's a stupid reason when you here it)...I can't stand jumping into a series at the middle even if the publisher themself tells me to disregard the first 19 issues I can't do that...so since those aren't collected or acclaimed I'm going to have to find a time and desire when I feel up to getting them  I forced myself to plough through the 18 issues of Doom Patrol pre-Morrison before I read the collected trades of his work because I wanted to know exactly what he was revolutionizing...and let me assure you, what he had to work with was not much so I can now appreciate his run all the more...but yeah, I don't not read Swamp Thing because it's Moore...it's because I like to start at the beginning "
yeah we've had this conversation already :D "
:P
 
I was getting Silkcuts up to speed!
 
and I think I may get Promethea soon...I'm running out of Vertigo books to buy continuous trades for, most of the ones I have left are either OGN's, partially collected titles, or just plain old issue format...so I need to fill up my trade lust
Moderator
Posted by Caligula
@aztek the lost: yeah Promethea is out there, and i think you'll like it.
 
i also think you'd like From Hell, it seems like your taste.
Posted by aztek_the_lost
@Silkcuts: also, I don't think you should gauge popularity on ComicVine by the wiki...most of the people around here sing their praises on the forums rather then prove it in the wiki
 
and here's your link for Fire
Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost said:

" Well I can't think of too many your missing off the top of my head...though I think Matthew Sturges is underrated only in that I feel his co-writing with the great Willingham has just made everyone write off his good stuff as being Bill's but the guy has been the sole writer of House of Mystery for a while now and I've liked the new stuff moreso then I did the old (though I loved that too)...I just wish I knew who wrote what aspects of Jack of Fables because there are some I like better then others
 
as for things I disagree with on your list...
 
but Judd Winick overrated? Does anyone even know who he is? I certainly don't...apart from Blood + Water (which had three of the best issues I've ever read to begin with and then two of the most cliche and predictable to conclude)
 
then Neil Gaiman and Garth Ennis I wouldn't call overrated (or underrated) because everything I've read from them I've loved thus far and until that changes their respect seems well-deserved...until I read something of there's that I don't like I'll feel that way
 
and then Alan Moore in my opinion is the most overrated writer in comics and I will argue it until my dying day...I do read his stuff...but I think he's overrated entirely...he's famous because he was in the right place at the right time...he's a great writer in the way Stan Lee is...not because of the actual caliber of the stories but because he was their in the early stages revolutionizing things...do I think he made a great impact and is responsible for the emergence of many of my favorite writers? yes. do I think he's a better writer then all the writers he paved the way for? Not even slightly. his writing is fine and he had a few hits but overall not so much...the most recent thing of his I read was Black Dossier...slow, predictable and gimmicky...that sums up the entire story in a nutshell...my favorite part was the comic history of Orlando which in all reality had nothing to do with the comic itself...I don't feel that's a good thing...I think people should read his comics so they can judge him for themselves which is why I intend to read everything of his I can get my hands on but I don't like when people say (like Babs did in that video for people new to comics and hundreds of others do) that everything by Alan Moore is pure gold and should be treasured, that's a complete load...even his biggest fan (Caligula) doesn't absolutely love everything he does but reviewers continue to proclaim everything of his the best around "

Matthew Sturges is a great suggestion for a future list.  But your right, him being Willingham's jedi knight to the jedi master hurts him.
 
Judd Winick has his fans and Under the hood DVD is an example on how they can sell him.
 
I love Gaiman and Ennis too, but Gaiman hasn't has anything of Sandman level outside the sandman uni.  Ennis is a formula....
 
I respect your view on Moore, it is also reflective on the time.  At the Time Moore did his most celebrated work, it was what other writers couldn't imagine.  The CCA for example was first scraped because of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.  Vertigo and pushing narration wouldn't be where it is, if it wasn't for Moore's mind.  Moore's comics now are written for him, hence not for everyone.  Most of Alan's work I adore.  Maybe Maxwell I felt was a waste of my money.  Swamp Thing is I think the turning point.  Both Caligula and I read it and are Moore fans.  The narration, the themes, the story, it is timeless.  So my point I think is still valid and you helped me with that, Most people love Alan for the wrong reasons and not enough people love him for the right reasons.  So "underrated" is the conflicting word, but for sure he is not loved properly.
 
My views of magic was taught to me by Moore in a Disease of Language. Alan Moore is not a simple writer and I think that is where he looses people.
Posted by aztek_the_lost
@Caligula said:
" @aztek the lost: yeah Promethea is out there, and i think you'll like it.  i also think you'd like From Hell, it seems like your taste. "
I'm going into Promethea pretty open-minded and trying not to read too much on it so it's fresh and pure Moore
 
as for From Hell, I expect I'll enjoy it too...I mean I definitely enjoy Jack the Ripper mythos (my main alternate account happens to be named such) so that alone may be enough for me :P
Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts: also, I don't think you should gauge popularity on ComicVine by the wiki...most of the people around here sing their praises on the forums rather then prove it in the wiki
 
and here's your link for Fire
"
He finds the fire page :D
man your on point mod.
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost said:
" @Caligula said:
" @aztek the lost: yeah Promethea is out there, and i think you'll like it.  i also think you'd like From Hell, it seems like your taste. "
I'm going into Promethea pretty open-minded and trying not to read too much on it so it's fresh and pure Moore as for From Hell, I expect I'll enjoy it too...I mean I definitely enjoy Jack the Ripper mythos (my main alternate account happens to be named such) so that alone may be enough for me :P "
dude, Swamp Thing... Promethea and From Hell... after that if you don't love Moore, then your a "lost" cause j/k get it "lost" like Aztek the "lost".  okay that was corny.
Posted by aztek_the_lost
@Silkcuts said:
"Matthew Sturges is a great suggestion for a future list.  But your right, him being Willingham's jedi knight to the jedi master hurts him.
 
Judd Winick has his fans and Under the hood DVD is an example on how they can sell him.
 
I love Gaiman and Ennis too, but Gaiman hasn't has anything of Sandman level outside the sandman uni.  Ennis is a formula....
 
I respect your view on Moore, it is also reflective on the time.  At the Time Moore did his most celebrated work, it was what other writers couldn't imagine.  The CCA for example was first scraped because of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.  Vertigo and pushing narration wouldn't be where it is, if it wasn't for Moore's mind.  Moore's comics now are written for him, hence not for everyone.  Most of Alan's work I adore.  Maybe Maxwell I felt was a waste of my money.  Swamp Thing is I think the turning point.  Both Caligula and I read it and are Moore fans.  The narration, the themes, the story, it is timeless.  So my point I think is still valid and you helped me with that, Most people love Alan for the wrong reasons and not enough people love him for the right reasons.  So "underrated" is the conflicting word, but for sure he is not loved properly.
 
My views of magic was taught to me by Moore in a Disease of Language. Alan Moore is not a simple writer and I think that is where he looses people. "
I think something most people don't know who love Willingham is that he broke into comics writing the comic equivalent of Lord of the G-Strings (Ironwood) which I find to be hilarious...
 
well, I guess in my opinion he's not overrated because I don't know of him having a significant enough fanbase but have you read his Blood + Water? do you agree with my thoughts on it?
 
I see your point that Sandman is basically Gaiman's only contribution to the comic world, most of his other credits are for consulting and his written works being adapted into comic format...I guess the thing is I just love him as a writer in general and love the comic adaptions of his work as well so by combining that with Sandman/Black Orchid/Books of Magic (and what I hope to one day read, Miracleman) he's just a great comic writer IMO
 
as for Ennis, I do agree he can be somewhat formulaic...but I support where he's coming from with those formulas...but yes I will agree Crossed was almost a sleepfest at times though it was funny at points...I guess come to think of it I can see him being overrated...I mean you either have to love all of his stuff or none of it...there's very little middle ground...so I can support him being where he was I suppose though I do like him as a writer and still read The Boys religiously :P
 
well I'm giving Moore a chance but I think we're saying the same things only you interpret it as him needing more praise and I interpret it as him needing less :P my reasons for him being overrated are the same as yours for him being underrated
Moderator
Posted by aztek_the_lost
@Silkcuts said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Caligula said:
" @aztek the lost: yeah Promethea is out there, and i think you'll like it.  i also think you'd like From Hell, it seems like your taste. "
I'm going into Promethea pretty open-minded and trying not to read too much on it so it's fresh and pure Moore as for From Hell, I expect I'll enjoy it too...I mean I definitely enjoy Jack the Ripper mythos (my main alternate account happens to be named such) so that alone may be enough for me :P "
dude, Swamp Thing... Promethea and From Hell... after that if you don't love Moore, then your a "lost" cause j/k get it "lost" like Aztek the "lost".  okay that was corny. "
well you'll probably think I'm a lost cause already because Watchmen and V for Vendetta aren't in my "greatest comics of all time" list...they just lack a timeless feel IMO...they both seem like things that would have been much more meaningful when they were being written and printed...
 
whereas a book like 1984 still feels applicable today even though it's a similar idea...for example Watchmen was all about the fear of nuclear threats and war, that doesn't really exist anymore, 1984 is about the government punishing its citizens for thoughtcrime, which the government still does to this day, in fact they change the language all the time to eliminate "wrong" words just like 1984...and yes I realize 1984 is a novel not a comic but I feel my point is that to me the one is timeless while the other is not
 
however, since Promethea and From Hell were written after Moore was raised onto a golden pedestal that rises above the clouds, I can hope they are pure Moore and not just a case of the time period...Swamp Thing I expect I'll love but at the same time things like it being the comic that got rid of the CCA isn't a fair standard to claim it the best since only 1 comic can do that and the only thing that defines which comes does is which one came first
Moderator
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
"Matthew Sturges is a great suggestion for a future list.  But your right, him being Willingham's jedi knight to the jedi master hurts him.
 
Judd Winick has his fans and Under the hood DVD is an example on how they can sell him.
 
I love Gaiman and Ennis too, but Gaiman hasn't has anything of Sandman level outside the sandman uni.  Ennis is a formula....
 
I respect your view on Moore, it is also reflective on the time.  At the Time Moore did his most celebrated work, it was what other writers couldn't imagine.  The CCA for example was first scraped because of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.  Vertigo and pushing narration wouldn't be where it is, if it wasn't for Moore's mind.  Moore's comics now are written for him, hence not for everyone.  Most of Alan's work I adore.  Maybe Maxwell I felt was a waste of my money.  Swamp Thing is I think the turning point.  Both Caligula and I read it and are Moore fans.  The narration, the themes, the story, it is timeless.  So my point I think is still valid and you helped me with that, Most people love Alan for the wrong reasons and not enough people love him for the right reasons.  So "underrated" is the conflicting word, but for sure he is not loved properly.
 
My views of magic was taught to me by Moore in a Disease of Language. Alan Moore is not a simple writer and I think that is where he looses people. "
I think something most people don't know who love Willingham is that he broke into comics writing the comic equivalent of Lord of the G-Strings (Ironwood) which I find to be hilarious... well, I guess in my opinion he's not overrated because I don't know of him having a significant enough fanbase but have you read his Blood + Water? do you agree with my thoughts on it?  I see your point that Sandman is basically Gaiman's only contribution to the comic world, most of his other credits are for consulting and his written works being adapted into comic format...I guess the thing is I just love him as a writer in general and love the comic adaptions of his work as well so by combining that with Sandman/Black Orchid/Books of Magic (and what I hope to one day read, Miracleman) he's just a great comic writer IMO  as for Ennis, I do agree he can be somewhat formulaic...but I support where he's coming from with those formulas...but yes I will agree Crossed was almost a sleepfest at times though it was funny at points...I guess come to think of it I can see him being overrated...I mean you either have to love all of his stuff or none of it...there's very little middle ground...so I can support him being where he was I suppose though I do like him as a writer and still read The Boys religiously :P  well I'm giving Moore a chance but I think we're saying the same things only you interpret it as him needing more praise and I interpret it as him needing less :P my reasons for him being overrated are the same as yours for him being underrated "
I need to look into that Willingham comic, I was trying to collect the Elementals or whatever its called, but have a lot of random issue.s
 
Blood + Water you are right, its just an okay story at most.  But Vertigo released it because Winick's name is bigger then Joe Kelly's in their eyes, where Bang Tango is not reprinted.  I am not a Winick fan, but the reviewers her on the vine are reviewing a lot of his books.
 
Gaiman is a great writer, my girlfriend loves his novels.  Comicwise a lot of people rank him so high, heck I say he is my 4th fave writer, but why is he above a guy like Marv Wolfman who made the Teen Titans alongside many other beloved characters.
 
Ennis is is great, but because of his formula, there hasn't been any new grounds broken with him.  I like him too, but someone like a Kyle Baker can be equally as funny, but gets no love mainstream wise.
 
It is fair you can think Moore needs less praise, but without reading Swamp Thing, From Hell, Promethea or even something like Snakes & Ladders, it is unfair to saying he is overrated... because you are not judging him on his best work.  That is like me saying sucks without reading Sandman, or Mike Carey sucks without reading Lucifer.  I say he is underrated because those who say he is overrated tend to of not read past Watchmen and V for Vendetta. 
Posted by Caligula
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
"Matthew Sturges is a great suggestion for a future list.  But your right, him being Willingham's jedi knight to the jedi master hurts him.
 
Judd Winick has his fans and Under the hood DVD is an example on how they can sell him.
 
I love Gaiman and Ennis too, but Gaiman hasn't has anything of Sandman level outside the sandman uni.  Ennis is a formula....
 
I respect your view on Moore, it is also reflective on the time.  At the Time Moore did his most celebrated work, it was what other writers couldn't imagine.  The CCA for example was first scraped because of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.  Vertigo and pushing narration wouldn't be where it is, if it wasn't for Moore's mind.  Moore's comics now are written for him, hence not for everyone.  Most of Alan's work I adore.  Maybe Maxwell I felt was a waste of my money.  Swamp Thing is I think the turning point.  Both Caligula and I read it and are Moore fans.  The narration, the themes, the story, it is timeless.  So my point I think is still valid and you helped me with that, Most people love Alan for the wrong reasons and not enough people love him for the right reasons.  So "underrated" is the conflicting word, but for sure he is not loved properly.
 
My views of magic was taught to me by Moore in a Disease of Language. Alan Moore is not a simple writer and I think that is where he looses people. "
I think something most people don't know who love Willingham is that he broke into comics writing the comic equivalent of Lord of the G-Strings (Ironwood) which I find to be hilarious... well, I guess in my opinion he's not overrated because I don't know of him having a significant enough fanbase but have you read his Blood + Water? do you agree with my thoughts on it?  I see your point that Sandman is basically Gaiman's only contribution to the comic world, most of his other credits are for consulting and his written works being adapted into comic format...I guess the thing is I just love him as a writer in general and love the comic adaptions of his work as well so by combining that with Sandman/Black Orchid/Books of Magic (and what I hope to one day read, Miracleman) he's just a great comic writer IMO  as for Ennis, I do agree he can be somewhat formulaic...but I support where he's coming from with those formulas...but yes I will agree Crossed was almost a sleepfest at times though it was funny at points...I guess come to think of it I can see him being overrated...I mean you either have to love all of his stuff or none of it...there's very little middle ground...so I can support him being where he was I suppose though I do like him as a writer and still read The Boys religiously :P  well I'm giving Moore a chance but I think we're saying the same things only you interpret it as him needing more praise and I interpret it as him needing less :P my reasons for him being overrated are the same as yours for him being underrated "
and i maintain my standpoint that he is neither.
Posted by geraldthesloth

Milligan is super underrated.

Posted by Silkcuts
@geraldthesloth said:
" Milligan is super underrated. "
yeah!  the real reason for the post!  We all got side talking about Moore.  But yes Milligan is Super Underrated.  Maybe I should of place Alan at 5 and make PM the new #1.
Posted by geraldthesloth
@Silkcuts said:
" @geraldthesloth said:
" Milligan is super underrated. "
yeah!  the real reason for the post!  We all got side talking about Moore.  But yes Milligan is Super Underrated.  Maybe I should of place Alan at 5 and make PM the new #1. "
Yeah! he had the best run on Hellblazer i've read so far.
Posted by Silkcuts
@geraldthesloth said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @geraldthesloth said:
" Milligan is super underrated. "
yeah!  the real reason for the post!  We all got side talking about Moore.  But yes Milligan is Super Underrated.  Maybe I should of place Alan at 5 and make PM the new #1. "
Yeah! he had the best run on Hellblazer i've read so far. "
Modern writers of Hellblazer, after Diggle I agree.  But PM is very close to over taking Diggle as my favorite HB writer in the last 15 years or so. Delano and Ennis omitted respectfully.
Posted by aztek_the_lost

looks like the three of us will have to continue the Moore debate once I get back from reading "The Moore Compendium" :P
 
however, Watchmen is technically speaking his "greatest" work and I've read that...but yes...I'll try and begin Swamp Thing in the next month (need to read it anyways to have read everything new/old Vertigo printed this year) as well as From Hell and Promethea...I'll look into more of his stuff too...maybe we can estimate for January of next year to get back to Moore discussions?
 
p.s. I thought Blood + Water was collected because of the vampire craze, I actually said that in my review of it...and I do think the first three issues were phenomenal...but the ending was...meh...sort of tainted the rest of the story...I do wish Bang! Tango had been collected though but Haunted Tank which came from the same period is only being collected tomorrow so we'll see if Bang! Tango is coming soon?

Moderator
Posted by Trodorne

I too think Mark Millar is over rated. its also cause of him we had marvel civil war.... grrr.

Posted by aztek_the_lost
@geraldthesloth said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @geraldthesloth said:
" Milligan is super underrated. "
yeah!  the real reason for the post!  We all got side talking about Moore.  But yes Milligan is Super Underrated.  Maybe I should of place Alan at 5 and make PM the new #1. "
Yeah! he had the best run on Hellblazer i've read so far. "
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Moderator
Posted by Darkchild
@aztek the lost said:
"It seems like a reasonable list to me, obviously there's a few I disagree with personally but that's from personal preference, everyone's list will be different. I can see why you chose what you did but that doesn't mean I'd choose the same. "

agreed 
 
Bendis so the top overrated writer 
 
altho i dont agree with Silk and Garth but i understand what hes going with 
 
But the underrateds are so right
Posted by Caligula
@Trodorne said:
" I too think Mark Millar is over rated. its also cause of him we had marvel civil war.... grrr. "
what was wrong with CW? it was one of Marvel's only major arcs i give a crap about.
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost:  Works with me more Moore talk next year :)
 
Bang! Tango. cross our fingers.
Posted by geraldthesloth

I don't even think Bendis has any loyal fans anymore, and if they are they're only latching onto the success that was ultimate spider-man and daredevil.

Posted by Silkcuts
@Trodorne said:
" I too think Mark Millar is over rated. its also cause of him we had marvel civil war.... grrr. "
there two Millar's great, like in chosen... then blockbuster.. which is nothing special.
Posted by Caligula
@geraldthesloth said:
" I don't even think Bendis has any loyal fans anymore, and if they are they're only latching onto the success that was ultimate spider-man and daredevil. "
true i hate bendis. but i will give the devil his credit he did good on DD
Posted by Silkcuts
@Darkchild:  I am glad we agree at most.  Most people hate I put Alan Moore where he was and Garth Ennis.  I love Ennis but I feel like there isn't new ground with him.
 
F*** Bendis!
Posted by Silkcuts
@geraldthesloth said:
" I don't even think Bendis has any loyal fans anymore, and if they are they're only latching onto the success that was ultimate spider-man and daredevil. "
His new book, Scarlet I think its called.  There was like a whole bunch of Viners reviewing it.... he has too many fans.
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