Is DC's greed turning away fans?

Unless you only read core DCU books, there is chances DC comics canceled a series you were following.  From Great Ten only lasting 9 issues to Vertigo's cleaning out house, as well as Wildstorm and Vuda dying, DC is streamlining their product it seems.  Caring more about the "Sales" and less about the "Story".  Many fans who love Geoff Johns, Jim Lee and Dan Didio(t) [That will be the last time I don't bracket his name by the way.] are supporting the actions of this new regime.  Sure all three have proven they can make money in their own ways: Geoff John is the storyteller, Jim Lee is the living art God and Didiot gave the world the show Reboot, so he knows how to sell crack to kids.  That is a formula that works, but are formulas good?  
 
By having a formula for business you are only caring about the money. Here is a simple example of what I mean: 
Batman + Superman + Wonder Woman = 3X the fan base. Lets call it "The Trinity".
Wildstorm's sales are low and that is a fact.
"The Trinity" + Wildstorm = Even more mixed fanbase.... right?
On paper that makes sense, but in reality it never works.  Characters not born in the DCU always struggle to fit in the DCU and that is a fact the business men are missing.  Shazam and ( Ted Kord) Blue Beetle are great examples, because sure they have their fans, but Superman will always be DC's baby and Shazam is the bastard child, same with Ted Kord. He was (RIP) a rich man superhero, he can't be more popular then Batman, DCU will never allow it.  Characters who are just tossed into the mix, owned by DC or its other imprints, will not mix properly.  
 
Vertigo, which maybe the longest lasting imprint, it stated off without even knowing its own name, within the pages of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and then Grant Morrison with his Animal Man and Doom Patrol.  With the movement and change of mentality Karen Berger was allowed to create Vertigo. Vertigo was an imprinted I fell in love with because it cared about the "Story". The stories were allowed Finite ends. The characters were allowed to grow without worries of "reboots" (pardon the Didiot pun) and re-continuity.  Vertigo was allowed to do that as long as the "Sales" were good.  Vertigo's problem was that it did not grow with the time fast enough.  Its fan base was always older readers.  Older readers stopped buying monthlies and moved to trade buying.  It took a while for Vertigo to catch on to that and to this date its longest running series Hellblazer is not properly collected. But back to the topic of sales, the monthlies decreased and the products suffered for it.  Swamp Thing Vol. 4 cut short, Swamp Thing Vol. 5 robbed after inception and then aborted.  Award winning and acclaimed Unknown Soldier was not even safe because it didn't sell more then something like Booster Gold.  I am not picking on Booster this time, I like the dude a lot.  I picked it because he is a great example of the greed DC has right now.  Before Blackest Night Booster's sales were not great and once Blackest Night did its cross-over the sales picked out drastically.  Guys like Geoff Johns and Didiot have now seen the power of the cross-over at its "best" or "worst" I'll let you word it accordingly. Because the Cross-over potential is there, DC is moving away from why I pick them over Marvel.  Marvel is all about the Cross-overs, any Marvel fan please tell he this is not true, because I will respond to "remove your rose colored glasses for that company".  Was their not a quest on comicvine about X-Overs?
 
DC has now moved into caring about the sales over the story.  So things that are not making money are getting cut and products that management thinks can make more money else were are being taken back and absorbed.  "Who cares is Swamp Thing has changed in Vertigo", right? New fans didn't read his Mark Millar run, so who cares if they reboot his history so he can "date" Poison Ivy and become the plant power house.  Okay that last line was meant as sarcastic, and if you were a Swamp Thing fan you would feel my pain about Alec, Abby and Tefe taken away so they can randomly appear in the DCU as younger versions of themselves.  Who cares about guys like me who wasted their money on great stories that are now not their history.  A character like Swamp Thing doesn't benefit the DCU, he has grown and changed and given something most North American comic characters are never allow to have and that is a real life.  He was allowed to age, marry, divorce, have a kid.  But for some unknown reason to me, most people in North American don't want their characters to have a life.  They want to complain about things like Brand New Day and OMIT yet they keep supporting the books. I guess what I am saying is, that some characters should be allowed just to take our money like Spider-man is for and some characters should be allowed to be used for a grander story, such as The Wildstorm, Vertigo, Minx and Vuda imprints all were suppose to be for. 
 
Another character I forgot to mention was Madame Xanadu, a character taken back because of the Didiot Mandate. There was no need to cancel here series because it was doing fine Vertigo-wise at least.  Its sales were in the middle of the back monthly and the trades I heard were doing fine.  Madame Xanadu was a causality of greed. DC wanted her back under the DC banner, even if she was still interacting with DC characters she was not making money directly for the parent. Madame Xandau was out selling Brian Woods books monthly, so it for sure was about having her under the DC banner.  Why is it so important for Didiot to have everyone back under the same banner? It is him being territorial.  He is a kid in daycare and he wants all the toys to play with.  A lot of his direction for DC is not helping the overall product, just himself. The Endless in the DCU is another topic, because sure they don't have much going on Vertigo-wise right now, but they are characters that just shouldn't show up in the DCU, just because.  Destiny and Death did come from the DCU, and Daniel has his connection to the DCU as well, but the Endless has to be written well to not ruin their characters.
 
Here is a quote to show DC is about the money, so you guys who think I am just a Vertigo Nut will hopefully see what I am saying. [Link it : HERE]

....Time passed, DC reshuffled the top of their management, we changed editors and I sort of watched everything nervously, but kept writing according to what I'd sent Scott. Finally, after sending in the script to WildCATS 28, I couldn't hold off any longer, and sent a note to Editor Jim Chadwick, asking if Wildstorm intended to keep the creative team in place past issue 30, as I hadn't heard anything one way or the other. I hoped my "long term plan," plus what I hoped was my obvious enthusiasm for the book, and the largely positive response we (and the Authority and Gen13 and DV8) had received here on the boards and elsewhere might play some factor in keeping the ball rolling. But there were bigger forces at work. Jim wrote me back, explaining that CATS was gone, as was Authority, and so on, and the decision had actually been made some amount of time before. Nothing to do with our work, he assured me, but sales had been declining for some time, the new top brass at DC wanted to reconsider the line, etc., etc. Business decision, not creative (and I believe that). And #30 would be our last issue...   

-  Adam Beechen  

There has to be more then a guy like me and the Wildstorm fans being turned away from DC Comics right now.  DC as a company is not treating all of their fans with the greatest care right now.  At the rate DC is going, it would not surprise me if I find love away from DC and read more of the Indy books.  Just because the Big Two own the comic market doesn't mean all the good reads are there.  Outside of DC and Marvel there have been some reads I would say are better then most of those twos output.  Books like Chew, Walking Dead and even Original Graphic Novels from guys like Robert Crumb.  Comics are more then just Superheroes.  Good Comics are about the stories and I think DC has lost its way.
 
Cheers.
 - Silkcuts.
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Posted by FadeToBlackBolt

I still think DC is treating its fans better than Marvel. The multi-colored Hulks, X-Nazis, "Avengers" and their recent events have all been slaps to the face.
 
Though I definitely see where you're coming from. However, regarding the WS thing, it might turn out to be not that big of a deal. It could just result in the binding of books being changed to say "DC Universe" instead of "Wildstorm". It could all turn out like the Marvel/Disney situation. 
 
Keep the faith a little longer, mate :)

Posted by Joey Ravn

 @Silkcuts said:

"Is DC's greed turning away fans?"  
Not me.
Edited by Silkcuts
@FadeToBlackBolt said:

" I still think DC is treating its fans better than Marvel. The multi-colored Hulks, X-Nazis, "Avengers" and their recent events have all been slaps to the face.  Though I definitely see where you're coming from. However, regarding the WS thing, it might turn out to be not that big of a deal. It could just result in the binding of books being changed to say "DC Universe" instead of "Wildstorm". It could all turn out like the Marvel/Disney situation.   Keep the faith a little longer, mate :) "

You are right Marvel fans are being taken to the bank with all the non sense.  And I hope you are right that Wildstorm will live on, just in a different way.  
Thanks for taking some time to read my blog.
Cheers!
 
@Joey Ravn said:
"  @Silkcuts said:
"Is DC's greed turning away fans?"  
Not me. "

That is deep.  Glad your still on board.
Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@Silkcuts: No worries! 
 
I was so bummed when I found out WS was cancelled. First thing I was doing tomorrow was picking up some Authority, Gen13 and Wildcats tpbs lol.
Posted by Silkcuts
@FadeToBlackBolt:  I think I may do the same thing.  Last week I picked out old Gen 13 stuff because I was on an Adam Hughes fix.  Gen 13 Superman and another one where he did the story and interior. can't recall the name.
Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@Silkcuts: I cannot get enough of his Catwoman covers. Sooooo pretty :)
Posted by danhimself

as upset as I am over Wildstorm ending I also understand why it's happening.....Wildstorm hasn't been selling well in a long time and no matter what at the end of the day DC is a company that wants to make money and you can't make money with books that aren't selling...it doesn't matter how good a story is if the books not selling then they have to get rid of it...now this might upset the books fans but obviously there aren't a lot of them since the book isn't selling well so they can either piss off a few fans and save money or loose money and keep the book around....what would you do

Posted by joshmightbe

Here's the thing DC comics is a business in any sales based business the amount of consumer interest is determined by the sales numbers  

Posted by LightBright

It's always sad when a good series is dropped, regardless as to wether or not money (greed) is the reason.  
 
I think the big two (Marvel&DC) are just hellbent on making comics a giant trend while they can so that they can keep milking merch and movies. That's not a bad thing, but it feels like they are always trying to outdo one another with some big event or ridiculous story arc. Of course these involve the characters that cross generations (Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, Hulk) instead of actually interesting characters that are hardly ever mentioned.  
 
And I'm glad you mentioned Booster Gold and Blue Beetle. I'm a huge Booster Gold fangirl and am super happy with where the series has been heading. But when I started really getting into BG a few years back I also wanted to start reading Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes, not Ted) and was pretty disappointed  when the Blue Beetle series ended as mini story at the back of the BG books (can't remember the issues). It was a fun series and could've had a longer run, but the Beetle was never really that big anyways so he went kaput once again. 
 
I went to DC from Marvel for two reasons: Way ruined Deadpool and DC had more compelling characters. But now I find I'm a little torn because I have one series I really enjoy (Booster Gold) and one that I'm reading just to try and keep up with what the hell's going on (Brightest Day). I adore Geoff Johns's writing, but surely DC can find more talent to write for smaller titles. And when all the hoopla surrounding the events is done and they've squeezed everything they can from the cash cow that is the Trinity etc, they are going to have nothing to fall back on except for maybe some straight to DVD animated movies because everyone is sick of Superman and Batman sequels and would like to read a genuinely good story.

Edited by Mainline
@Silkcuts: I think you're taking his quote out of context, let us look a few other things he has to say...  
 
----------------------------
 Folks, I'm really sorry about that. That's 100% on me, my bad for looking too far ahead. Wildstorm didn't promise me anything beyond issue 30, but I went along as though there would be more, and when the company told me 30 was it, I wasn't properly prepared. I was a victim of my own excitement for the book, and I made victims out of you, as a result. 
  
I hope you're as vociferous in your praise for the creators you do like as you are for the ones you don't.  
 
Editors Scott Peterson and Jim Chadwick pushed us forward, reined us in, and kept things moving smoothly during stormy seas in their business. Ben Abernathy and Hank Kanalz were nothing but encouraging and supportive from day one. And last, I'd like to thank Jim Lee for letting me play in his brilliant sandbox. It's been an honor.   
 
  I have nothing but respect and admiration, not only for these characters and the creators that came before me, but for you fans of Wildstorm. 
 
  Nothing stays dead in comics for long. These characters we all love so much will be back. I'll be at the shop waiting with you the day they return. 
----------------------------
   If you consider that the majority of books coming out right now never see issue #13 much less #30, the book was given more than a fair shake and Adam takes it just so.  He recognizes he had a contract and that it's just business.  He acknowledges that it wasn't a creative decision and has peace with that because comic books are commercial not a charity.  Finally, he puts the onus on the fan to praise.  If you like it, buy it, and campaign amongst consumers for sales don't hate on a business for making a rational business decision that doesn't subsidize your consumption habits.  Two and a half years worth of stories is definitely giving a book a chance and if it couldn't capitalize on that chance it's hardly the publisher's fault.
Posted by inferiorego

If you're talking greed, talk Marvel before DC. They put out ANYTHING to make a buck.
On a side note, it's a money making business, and there's a lot of people that work hard at both companies that need to be paid. If they were truly a greedy company, they'd raise the price of their books another $1 without offering anything else within the issue.

Staff
Posted by Joey Ravn
@Silkcuts said:
@Joey Ravn said:
"  @Silkcuts said:
"Is DC's greed turning away fans?"  
Not me. "
That is deep.  Glad your still on board. 
I read your post, but do I have to reply with an equal amount of words? You asked a question, I gave you an answer. You don't like it, fine. But DC is not alienating me, particularly me, with its "greediness". I don't know what else you want me to say.
Posted by LightBright
@Mainline: You make a really good point. People always moan and complain about this or that, but they never seem to realise that consumers actually have the power to decide what gets produced. You learn this sh!t in school for goodness sakes. It's not that hard. If you like something, buy it. If you don't, leave it.
Posted by johnny_spam

I always respect these well written blogs and threads more then just angry non nonsensical ramblings you see someone post. You are right that there is more to the industry that can be about anything that don't have to be Marvel or DC or superheroes but this was a decision made by a comic book company driven by superheroes other companies have the advantage of being able to take a risk but if people are not interested like the Wildstorm line or buying it then it should be no surprise it was ended.

Posted by Silkcuts
@danhimself:  @joshmightbe:  @inferiorego: @johnny spam: 
You guys make strong points, a business' first reason to be in business is to make money.  With how some of the other series, their is no need to try and DC makes money from them.  By having the cushion space, why not try things.  It is early, we still don't know what will happen with Wildstorm's properties like ABC, Ex Machina, the Jim Lee Universe and so on.  Part of the reason for the failure with this imprint is the lack of care DC has for it.  Of often did Jim Lee do a full book for his imprint?  Hush, Superman for Tommorrow and All-Star Batman and Robin got more of his attention when his own baby did.  Greed is a factor, Jim Lee is the father of Wildstorm, he sold it to DC because of greed, which did keep it alive for many years.  But Greed won him over again.  Instead of putting in the extra effort for his own imprint, he would rather work on DC property for more money.
 
Greed does run DC. Money is important yes, but DC is becoming like Marvel.  Money first, stories second.
Posted by Liberty
@Silkcuts: @FadeToBlackBolt: @danhimself: @joshmightbe:   Sadly Josh is correct if not short sighted.  Josh is not short sided but the fact is short sighted.  This is not new.  I am an old time comic fan and have been buying them for a long time.  What the comic companies are doing is going after the highly sought after, younger, thirteen year old, demographic.  This means lots of violence and sex replaces clever writing and better stories.   This works only in the short term.  Younger readers eventually get fed up and stop buying when they realize they are being duped.  Some hang on for better stories but the fewer that are available the fewer they buy.
 
My favorite five characters are Guy Gardner, Booster Gold, Ted Kord, Fire, Ice, four of the five of these have been killed.  Not to mention charcters like Maxima, Question, Captain Atom, Crimson Fox, Crimson Fox again, Gypsy, Superboy, Kilowog, and on and on.  All these characters are in my top twenty.  That is twelve dead out of twenty and with every death I bought less comics.  From about 1998-2008 I barely bought a current book.  I would buy back issues of when time was good if I bought anything at all.  acationally there would be a current book I would buy but my store requires five issues minimum for a pull list and I couldn't find five issues I wanted.  
 
DC kills and brings back characters so often that death doesn't mean anything.  Was anyone concerned Bruce Wayne wouldn't come back when he was killed?  A smart fan just looks at it and says "well I keep buying the title waiting to bring them back" or "I'll stop until they bring my charcter back."  
 
My point is dead characters don't sell comics.  Sure when Batman and Superman died there was a spike in sales but that soon subsided.   Superman came out with a book every week up until his death.  It was not long after that those titles started to fall by the wayside.  
 
Now we have characters who come back that really didn't need to be back.  Hal Jordan and Barry Allen didn't need to be brought back.  They destroyed characters like Wally West and Kyle Rayner.
 
As long as the companies are more concerned with quarterly sales than long term sales they will ultimately fail.  That is the same thing that the automobile companies and banks were doing and look how they ended up.  Do you think the government is going to give DC a bail out.  The fact is there are less and less people buying comics now then there was decade after decade. 
Posted by Liberty
@Joey Ravn:   How about what you like and why the post in your opinon is wrong.
 
@LightBright: Booster Gold fans rock!!!!
Posted by Silkcuts
@LightBright:  Thanks for your replies. Sorry to hear about your Blue Beetle experience.
 
@Mainline: I was not trying to hide anything in the quote, that is why I gave the whole link.  I liked that the quote factored in the management changes and the effected it had on Wildstorm, that is why I used it.  When DC's new regime came to power the way of business changed.  The further way a series is from The Green Lantern story the more it is effected. There is not secret The GL is the "Hot" book in the DCU. So anything not selling like it, is reevaluated. 
 
Adam was ambitious that he wanted a long run, what writer won't who had the chance?  The whole article him giving love back to the Wildstorm fans.  Strictly looking on how things have changed since Paul Levitz became a writer again, the thing of DC have effected everything.  Unless you are making money, you can be cut and combined into something else.
Posted by johnny_spam

I think it was Moore, Vaughn, Casey, Brubaker, Millar, Quitley and Ellis that made Wildstorm interesting and important not Jim Lee and with none of the big creators interested in the universe there was no reason for the imprint to have importance it could be blamed on mismanagement  or lack of interest I don't even see many care about the line. 
 
As for the books getting cancelled it is a sad trend of the industry but hardly new it is something going on for a long time. 

Posted by joshmightbe
@Liberty: i wasn't saying it was right or a good thing Im just pointing out the nature of the business
Posted by Joey Ravn
@Liberty said:
" @Joey Ravn:   How about what you like and why the post in your opinon is wrong."
I never said it was wrong. I said, literally, that it was not turning me away. How can an opinion be wrong? Maybe a disinformed, but never wrong.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Joey Ravn: sorry dude, I didn't mean for you to see it as rude, I was just joking.   It was short, so I was just playing.  I understand, you are not effected. 
 
@johnny spam: There were a lot of people who made Wildstorm interesting. The problem was there was no exposure.  DC didn't push it.
Posted by Joey Ravn
@Silkcuts said:
" @Joey Ravn: sorry dude, I didn't mean for you to see it as rude, I was just joking.   It was short, so I was just playing.  I understand, you are not effected. "
No harm done.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Liberty said:
" @Silkcuts: @FadeToBlackBolt: @danhimself: @joshmightbe:   Sadly Josh is correct if not short sighted.  Josh is not short sided but the fact is short sighted.  This is not new.  I am an old time comic fan and have been buying them for a long time.  What the comic companies are doing is going after the highly sought after, younger, thirteen year old, demographic.  This means lots of violence and sex replaces clever writing and better stories.   This works only in the short term.  Younger readers eventually get fed up and stop buying when they realize they are being duped.  Some hang on for better stories but the fewer that are available the fewer they buy. My favorite five characters are Guy Gardner, Booster Gold, Ted Kord, Fire, Ice, four of the five of these have been killed.  Not to mention charcters like Maxima, Question, Captain Atom, Crimson Fox, Crimson Fox again, Gypsy, Superboy, Kilowog, and on and on.  All these characters are in my top twenty.  That is twelve dead out of twenty and with every death I bought less comics.  From about 1998-2008 I barely bought a current book.  I would buy back issues of when time was good if I bought anything at all.  acationally there would be a current book I would buy but my store requires five issues minimum for a pull list and I couldn't find five issues I wanted.    DC kills and brings back characters so often that death doesn't mean anything.  Was anyone concerned Bruce Wayne wouldn't come back when he was killed?  A smart fan just looks at it and says "well I keep buying the title waiting to bring them back" or "I'll stop until they bring my charcter back."    My point is dead characters don't sell comics.  Sure when Batman and Superman died there was a spike in sales but that soon subsided.   Superman came out with a book every week up until his death.  It was not long after that those titles started to fall by the wayside.    Now we have characters who come back that really didn't need to be back.  Hal Jordan and Barry Allen didn't need to be brought back.  They destroyed characters like Wally West and Kyle Rayner.  As long as the companies are more concerned with quarterly sales than long term sales they will ultimately fail.  That is the same thing that the automobile companies and banks were doing and look how they ended up.  Do you think the government is going to give DC a bail out.  The fact is there are less and less people buying comics now then there was decade after decade.  "
Glad to have your opinions shared :D
all of your fave characters seem gone, so fans like you are being turned away.  Slowly but surely.  The focus is the quick buck. 
Edited by Liberty
@Joey Ravn:   I think you took me too personally.  Wrong my have been the wrong word.  A blog is a place to voice your opinion and I just wondered what your point was.
 
@joshmightbe: I know I was trying to say in a clever way that you are right but other people (Not You) who think this way are short sighted.  It is the dirty part of the art.
Posted by Silkcuts
@joshmightbe said:
" @Liberty: i wasn't saying it was right or a good thing Im just pointing out the nature of the business "
It sad, that that is the reason.  It is the nature of business to make money. DC is making money, they just want more.  That is the greed.  A lot of Vertigo's most recent books were canceled and not given a real chance.  If Trades determine their profits and sales, those series should be allowed a few trades.  Young Liars, Unknown Soldier, Greek Street and Madame Xanadu all died out quick, leaving three trades.  Hardly a fighting chance.  Unknown Soldier and Madame Xanadu were acclaimed as well... Sales could factor in, but I think its Didiot wanting the characters back.
 
@Joey Ravn said:
" @Liberty said:
" @Joey Ravn:   How about what you like and why the post in your opinon is wrong."
I never said it was wrong. I said, literally, that it was not turning me away. How can an opinion be wrong? Maybe a disinformed, but never wrong. "
@Joey Ravn said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Joey Ravn: sorry dude, I didn't mean for you to see it as rude, I was just joking.   It was short, so I was just playing.  I understand, you are not effected. "
No harm done. "
Good :D

Is my opinion is disinformed? 
Posted by LightBright
@Liberty:
Booster Gold Fan High Five! :D 
 
I was so sad when Question died. And then Renee Montoya (who is a great character, don't get me wrong) becoming the new Question just felt really weird. I saw no real reason for Vic to pick her as his sucessor. It was just too weird.  
 
And when Big Barda found Scott dead I almost cried. I'm not an overly emotional person either, but I get attached to very few characters in comics so much that their deaths affect me. DC is always killing off people I like! >_< 
 
And when Batman died all I thought was "oh" because there was no way DC would let him stay dead. They (publishers in general) try to shock readers by killing off big characters but it's so overdone these days the affect is gone. It's the minor characters who don't deserve to die that tug at the heartstrings.
Posted by Dracade102
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Silkcuts: I cannot get enough of his Catwoman covers. Sooooo pretty :) "



 
Online
Posted by Liberty
@Silkcuts:   I too wish it was more about the art of making a comic rather than the money factor.  I believe that the system gets bogged down in money issues when the truth is if you make something well it we be bought.  You do not have to use gimmicks and in the long run they hurt sales.  They only work in the short term.
Posted by Silkcuts
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Silkcuts: I cannot get enough of his Catwoman covers. Sooooo pretty :) "
Yes she is. Adam Hughes needs to draw more covers.
 
@inferiorego said:
" If you're talking greed, talk Marvel before DC. They put out ANYTHING to make a buck. On a side note, it's a money making business, and there's a lot of people that work hard at both companies that need to be paid. If they were truly a greedy company, they'd raise the price of their books another $1 without offering anything else within the issue. "
Part of the reason why DC adds the back up features to their $4 comics is because its their way of being competitive. Marvel can sell $4 comics no problem, DC has to try harder.  The back up in American Vampire is gone, the book is down to 32 paged instead of 40 and the cover is still $4.  Greed is still there.  DC just hides it better.  Most of my favorite books are DC, my screenname shows my DC/Vertigo bias.  I know things get canceled, that is how it is.  It just seems like its getting to a point to why should I care about good stories? I supported a whole bunch of recently canceled books.  The best part is, I can now walk away if I want to.  I do love comics and comics are more then just cool characters to me.  The stories mean a lot.  That is why I will read stuff from Oni or Top Shelf or Image or whatever.  Those smaller companies care about the story. A lot of their books are not cheap, but the price is worth it.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Liberty said:
" @Silkcuts:   I too wish it was more about the art of making a comic rather than the money factor.  I believe that the system gets bogged down in money issues when the truth is if you make something well it we be bought.  You do not have to use gimmicks and in the long run they hurt sales.  They only work in the short term. "
Many fans don't see that. It is easier to be told what is cool then to discover it yourself.  That is a problem Vertigo has.  I see it that Vertigo has too types of readers, those who read the cool books and those who read for story.  My great example of this is saying "Rake at the Gakes of Hell", Garth Ennis will come to mind for a Vertigo reader and the Song if they heard it, but a person who bleeds Vertigo should think of Hellblazer first since that was a title Garth gave one of his arcs in Hellblazer, but most fans will think Preacher instead, never reading Hellblazer (which was first mind you), will think of the Preacher arc named that.  Preacher sells in boatloads because it is the "cool" book.  Aztek and I are the only two people I can name on the vine who is up to date in Hellblazer.  Another common thing is that we both were pissed with DC many times this year, when it was like every month another thing got canceled.
 
Most comic fans will never experience the year I had because Green Lantern, Batman, Superman and the other "Safe" books are not going anywhere.  But the books to be "BRAVE and BOLD" and try new things are the ones not safe and the ones that suffer.
Posted by Zoom

I wasn't reading Authority (because Batman and Superman who kill doesn't appeal to me) or Wildcats anyway. 
 
Vertigo, I'm not buying anything from right now.  I do want the imprint to stick around though because its produced a bunch of great things like 100 Bullets, Y, Doom Patrol, Swamp Thing, etc.
Posted by Joey Ravn
@Silkcuts said: 
"Is my opinion is disinformed?  "
No, never said it was. I was just saying that opinions can't be wrong in themselves. They can be based on wrong data, but that doesn't make them wrong. I see where you're coming from, but I don't see it as a problem personally. I can't speak for everyone, but right now, I'm loving DC Comics.
Posted by Pizawle

I am upset with the current handling of Vertigo but do not really care for Wildstorm closing. Seems even quality wise most of their titles were quite stagnant which cannot be said for V and nothing is being buried, just the label is done.
 
Also, DC is not nearly as bad as Marvel. At least, not yet. The eight crossovers for The Road Home... now that has me deeply concerned.

Posted by CATMANEXE

Shouldn't let what a company does or how they go about putting they're kids through school
effect what comics you choose to read and enjoy, by whatever choice company, ever. 
For the life of me when i was a wee-bean I can not remember ever giving a single care 
about what some product maker was doing. It didn't effect the enjoyment I would take from comics,
cartoons, action figures and video games, nor should it now. Acknowledgment of someones deviance
is always fine, but giving into it is self-defeat.

Posted by Amegashita

  The way DC has been handling things has been turning me away for awhile now.  As a big Captain Marvel fan, I can't help but get turned away by what is occuring at DC.  Not only that, but the characterization of Green Arrow earlier this year made me shake my head, at the very least.  It does seem like stories take the cut at DC, and if the character isn't named Batman, Superman, or Wonder Woman, then don't keep your hopes up on your other favorite characters getting a story, let alone a series. 
 
  Greed takes place for creativity, after all, what good is a great story if you can't sell it to every single person?

Posted by Silkcuts
@Zoom said:
" I wasn't reading Authority (because Batman and Superman who kill doesn't appeal to me) or Wildcats anyway.  Vertigo, I'm not buying anything from right now.  I do want the imprint to stick around though because its produced a bunch of great things like 100 Bullets, Y, Doom Patrol, Swamp Thing, etc. "
@Pizawle said:
" I am upset with the current handling of Vertigo but do not really care for Wildstorm closing. Seems even quality wise most of their titles were quite stagnant which cannot be said for V and nothing is being buried, just the label is done.  Also, DC is not nearly as bad as Marvel. At least, not yet. The eight crossovers for The Road Home... now that has me deeply concerned. "
Thanks for sharing that both of you guys. It is understandable Wildstorm was no your thing.  I added Wildstorm in the blog because like Vertigo, it is being miss handled. The product isn't given much help because its not the easy money maker and when the product fails it is abandon.  Vertigo is suffering that now, Hellblazer is its longest running series and I personally believe its best, yet no one really reads it.  Fables is the big series because it is easy access. New readers can jump into it without any problems. There is new fables readers everyday without DC doing a single ad.  I don't hate Fables it is great. I am just using it for example.  Wildstorm is like Hellblazer, its fans at average have been fans for a long time and they were fans that found it themselves. But because there is no push, it is hard for newer fans to come.
 
@CATMANEXE said:
" Shouldn't let what a company does or how they go about putting they're kids through school effect what comics you choose to read and enjoy, by whatever choice company, ever.  For the life of me when i was a wee-bean I can not remember ever giving a single care  about what some product maker was doing. It didn't effect the enjoyment I would take from comics, cartoons, action figures and video games, nor should it now. Acknowledgment of someones deviance is always fine, but giving into it is self-defeat. "

I don't see it as giving into self-defeat.  Because I don't like that the companies are determining what is a good read.  I have been watching a lot of The Prisoner, the original, and I feel like comic fans are prisoners.  We are told by Spider-Man, by Blackest night, watch Watchmen. I am not saying that those are bad, but where is the overall selection.  From Hell from Alan Moore is one of my favorite graphic novels and it would never see print at DC in the same level it was printed independently.  By having the Big two run the show, they control the market.  Comics is more then superheroes, Harvey Pekar's life is an example of it.  I've been reading a bit of American Splendor since his passing and its good stuff.  Better drama then any reality show, because its real and honest.  I wrote this blog to help anyone who feels like they are "Number 6" and help start a break out of the "Village".  Sorry is the prisoner references are too much, since rereading the Invisibles I had to watch the prisoner.
 
Be Seeing You.
 
@Amegashita said:
"

  The way DC has been handling things has been turning me away for awhile now.  As a big Captain Marvel fan, I can't help but get turned away by what is occuring at DC.  Not only that, but the characterization of Green Arrow earlier this year made me shake my head, at the very least.  It does seem like stories take the cut at DC, and if the character isn't named Batman, Superman, or Wonder Woman, then don't keep your hopes up on your other favorite characters getting a story, let alone a series. 
 
  Greed takes place for creativity, after all, what good is a great story if you can't sell it to every single person?

"

I am glad some of the people being turned away finally showed up to the blog.  As for the concept of "What is a great story if you can't sell it to every single person?" great question.  A lot of great stories you can't sell to everyone, but we still tell them.  The Bible is a book where not everyone will buy into it and yet it is such an important book.  The reason why stories are told is to push our creativity, not to make a lot of money quick. Most of the Image people of the 90s had that mentality, look at them now. Todd keeps losing lawsuits, Jim Lee abandoned his child, now twice to DC, and the rest... no where big.  Greed driving the machine is not going to help the product. The 90s is a great example, most of the comics from the 90s are only good for burning.  
 
@Joey Ravn said:
" @Silkcuts said: 
"Is my opinion is disinformed?  "
No, never said it was. I was just saying that opinions can't be wrong in themselves. They can be based on wrong data, but that doesn't make them wrong. I see where you're coming from, but I don't see it as a problem personally. I can't speak for everyone, but right now, I'm loving DC Comics. "

Glad you are loving DC comics.  They are producing a lot of great stuff, not arguing at that.  I just think they are alienation some of their fans and I think its a lot of the older or obscure character fans.  But these fans should still matter to DC.  Cheers.
Posted by Hamz

I disagree. If anything I'd say Marvel is the greedier of the two big publishers in the industry. 
 
And honestly companies need to make money, if a book just isn't selling and bringing in the profits then what's the point of continuing it?

Posted by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:
" There is new fables readers everyday without DC doing a single ad.  
Uh...
Posted by Liberty

 @LightBright:  

I was so sad when Question died. And then Renee Montoya (who is a great character, don't get me wrong) becoming the new Question just felt really weird. I saw no real reason for Vic to pick her as his sucessor. It was just too weird.  
 
And when Big Barda found Scott dead I almost cried. I'm not an overly emotional person either, but I get attached to very few characters in comics so much that their deaths affect me. DC is always killing off people I like! >_< 
 
And when Batman died all I thought was "oh" because there was no way DC would let him stay dead. They (publishers in general) try to shock readers by killing off big characters but it's so overdone these days the affect is gone. It's the minor characters who don't deserve to die that tug at the heartstrings. 

 Can not agree more!!!!
 
@CATMANEXE: 

 Shouldn't let what a company does or how they go about putting they're kids through school
effect what comics you choose to read and enjoy, by whatever choice company, ever. 
For the life of me when i was a wee-bean I can not remember ever giving a single care 
about what some product maker was doing. It didn't effect the enjoyment I would take from comics,
cartoons, action figures and video games, nor should it now. Acknowledgment of someones deviance
is always fine, but giving into it is self-defeat. 


Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you would be happy with comics no matter what they put out.
 
@Silkcuts:
Great Blog By The Way! 
Edited by Silkcuts
@Hamz said:

" I disagree. If anything I'd say Marvel is the greedier of the two big publishers in the industry.  And honestly companies need to make money, if a book just isn't selling and bringing in the profits then what's the point of continuing it? "

 You can mention Marvel, we all agree they are greedy.  And I also see the point a business like DC is to make money.  But by no caring about the product, DC is becoming like Marvel everyday.  Most mainstream readers would not feel the same pain as a guy like be because, most guys buy the safe books and then let random Vertigo books survive and read them when there are established.  Most fans do take the chance to try great books out and because the machine is so well oiled, most fans don't care.  An example of this is Unknown Soldier, it was doing fine.  It got canceled because of Didiot's greed.  Or Madame Xanadu was doing better then the Brian Wood books, yet his books didn't get canceled.  DC's closing of imprints are effecting a minority, but the minority are the ones who take the chances.  If it was not for the Wildstorm fans, where would Ellis be now?  Ellis blew-up because of the imprints, not he is big and his fans are forgetting his roots.  Grant Morrison is the same with Vertigo.  The imprints came out because of the need to tell stories and improve the media.  By cutting them the roots of creativity are hurt and most people are not seeing that.
 
@Liberty said:  

@Silkcuts: Great Blog By The Way!  "


Thanks. Need to find more people who are like us though.  I think some people are just reading the title and not the whole blog.  Because some of the response are making me feel like I put it a lot of work and not even 50% effort back.  Glad you enjoyed the read.
 
Cheers!
 - Silkcuts
Edited by Mainline

You're being silly by framing it as "greed" (the immoral wanting of more than one deserves)... if you can see the point about it being business then how about seeing it as a job for the individuals? 
 
You realize they get up every morning to provide for themselves, their families, their future, and just happen to do it in a manner that involves your consumption, but they don't live for your consumption.  If anything, condemning a person's personal and free will choices to provide for themselves as they see fit for the sake of your personal enjoyment... well, THAT is greed (hubris, and a number of other choice words in terms of mischaracterizing interests).  Comics, on the publishing side, are not that big a business.  The fact is that the vast majority of those working in it could find more lucrative work elsewhere- particularly in terms of those playing with the corporately owned toys of others- and it takes a special sort of insanity to decide to work in comics rather than reap the rewards of their talents doing something else.  What makes you qualified to call an individual immoral and undeserving of their paycheck?  What do you think DC hired those people to do? 
 
Who are you, a mere consumer, to judge people who are often in the business at a loss (to themselves in terms of opportunity cost), beholden to corporate owners and shareholders, and simultaneously slagged off by ungrateful fans who complain about business decisions rather than voting with their dollars?  Seriously, that's a much worse character flaw than anything mischaracterized as "greed", which is at least in the service of supply and demand... whereas bandying about terms like "greed" and airing irrational complaints ("Oh yes, they're economically motivated, therefore they don't care about their product!  That makes perfect sense!") are nothing but meaningless rants.  If you actually believe they're greedy monsters then you'd know slagging off does NOTHING and that only your dollars matter... otherwise, what's the point?  You're trying to insult the nonexistent conscience of your imagined greedy beast?  How does that make ANY sense?  Are you encouraging more people to abandon the books to force cuts?  I mean, THINK!
 
If you love something, then campaign FOR it.  Slagging off the one thing that has any chance of keeping it alive is WORTHLESS.  It's not intellectually deep, it's not effective, it's not analytical, it's not constructive, and all it does is promote uninformed hate which is equally pointless and stupid. 
 
What has bitterness ever solved?

Edited by Mainline
@Silkcuts said:


Because some of the response are making me feel like I put it a lot of work and not even 50% effort back. - Silkcuts "  

 
Because YOU DIDN'T put "a lot of work" into it.  Your argument, at a fundamental level MAKES NO SENSE. 
 
ALL you did was free associate a list of grievances and nail it to a conveniently morally loaded term like "greed" without any logical or casual connection between the two. 
 
You're lying because you don't give a damn what their motivations are one iota!  If they had given in to every single one of your grievances and did it OUT OF GREED you wouldn't care and your hypocrisy would be exposed!  If they had kept Wildstorm separate (and frankly we don't know what's happening so it's leaping to conclusions at this point), preserved Swamp Thing's continuity in your eyes, preserved Madame Xanadu, etc. all for the sake of not "turning away fans" (your fundamental greed based thesis) then you'd be a happy camper even if DC was being greedy about it!  If fact, your arguments are all how matching your personal preferences would make long term business sense (not the moral or ethical reasons for preserving the art over the self-interests of the corporation). 

In other words, logically, your argument isn't that DC is greedy... it's that it isn't GREEDY ENOUGH... that it should be greedy for those turned away revenue dollars in the phantom walk-away fans. 
 
Of course, the reality is that your argument isn't all that sophisticated to begin with.  All you're really doing is airing grievances and trying to call upon the moral authority of "greed" as a "bad word" to validate everything you say.  You could've argued that some decisions were short sighted or ineffective gambles or a creative turn-off against your preference or the preference of others, or plain stupid or poorly thought out but you really weren't interested in the motivations (otherwise why use a blanket economic self-interest as a critique then proceed to explain how every one of your preferred outcomes would have been in their economic interest?) but merely listing the specific outcomes you disagreed with.   You don't care if they're greedy or not, just that they're doing things you don't like.
 
Concisely, it's just nerd rage.
 
--- 
 
For those who need an illustrative example... 
 
"DC is greedy because they gave up on Wally and brought back Barry!  If they had kept Wally, they would have kept all these readers!" 

If you break it down, the criticism is transparent.  The writer doesn't care whether or not DC is greedy... in fact, they appeal to DC's greed by claiming their preferred outcome would have sated it better... the true point is "I want Wally back!"  That doesn't mean you couldn't provide internally valid criticism for who you think the decision was short-sighted, or stupid, or wrong... but the "greed" criticism is completely a smokescreen for the writer's actual interests and commentary.  In that example, if DC was greedy as all hell but the writer still had their preferred character do you think they would still post a moral condemnation of greed?  Of course not.  

  • S: "DC brought back Bart... I liked that, it kept me as a reader." 
  • M: "But I thought DC was greedy?  Didn't they do that out of greed?" 
  • S: "Nah, bringing back Bart was entirely altruistic and filled with creative integrity right down to the de-aging!" 
  • M: "Soooo... basically, DC is only greedy when they do something you don't like." 
  • S: "Uh, yes... I mean, no... I mean... well, there are consequences when their greed does something I don't like." 
  • M: "Wouldn't there be consequences if they did something you didn't like whether or not it was based on greed?" 
  • S: "Uh... yeah... but then I couldn't call them out as being greedy to seem right and take the moral high ground!"
Posted by Liberty
@Liberty said:  

@Silkcuts: Great Blog By The Way!  "


@Silkcuts said:

Thanks. Need to find more people who are like us though.  I think some people are just reading the title and not the whole blog.  Because some of the response are making me feel like I put it a lot of work and not even 50% effort back.  Glad you enjoyed the read.  

Unfortunately that happens a lot
Posted by Video_Martian

I think that Marvel is a much more greedier company than DC =/

Posted by Silkcuts
@Mainline said:
  • S: "DC brought back Bart... I liked that, it kept me as a reader." 
  • M: "But I thought DC was greedy?  Didn't they do that out of greed?" 
  • S: "Nah, bringing back Bart was entirely altruistic and filled with creative integrity right down to the de-aging!" 
  • M: "Soooo... basically, DC is only greedy when they do something you don't like." 
  • S: "Uh, yes... I mean, no... I mean... well, there are consequences when their greed does something I don't like." 
  • M: "Wouldn't there be consequences if they did something you didn't like whether or not it was based on greed?" 
  • S: "Uh... yeah... but then I couldn't call them out as being greedy to seem right and take the moral high ground!"
"
Is "S" suppose to be me? R you trying to put words in my mouth?  My comments have nothing to do with Nerd Rage or whatever you called it.  Yes I am a victim of what is happening with DC right now.  My title was " Is DC's greed turning away fans?" You can see it as loaded, it is very possible it was a bad name.  But in all facts I am not the only person turned away.  Liberty for example is someone being turned off.  DC is turning off fans.  A lot of fans love whats happening and good for them.  I am not a normal fan and I am proud of it.  
 
Wildstorm for example, it was a place where Warren Ellis really took off.  If it was not for Wildstorm, he wouldn't be as big of a name he is now. Now he is a big name and his mainstream fans only read his stuff now.  The early adapters are being effected most by what DC is doing. The smaller imprints when Levitz was in charge was about storytelling over maximum profits, that is why Vertigo was started.  By the new regime changing how things are, if you look at the whole picture, they are changing things for their profit.  Madame Xanadu was a series where the DCU guys still interacted with her, anyone reading it was upset when it was canceled because it was unjust.
 
My rants are not just rants, they are observations of almost a years worth being on the non-mainstream side of comics.  I can say that because I'm still the only person to review a book like Maus on comicvine. I am also the only Channel Zero reviewer as well.  My enjoyment of comics is about the medium and by streamlining the product, DC is limiting their appeal, so yes they are turning people away.  Its been hard for me to review anything DCU or Marvel that is current because the direction both are going I see is more about greed then story.  So you can accuse me of being an angry nerd, but trust me, you know nothing about me.   Comics are more then just Superheroes to me, comics are a medium to tell stories.
 
Most people reading this blog are just skimming it, because I have had like 10 people saying "Marvel" is more greedy.  That was not what I was saying.  I am saying is that mainstream comics are turning away some fans.  The word Greed maybe too loaded, but I won't change it.  The product is not going to improve the direction it is in.  I am comfortable saying that because i know my relationship to comics and I don't have "Rose colored glasses" for DC just because guys like Geoff Johns has written good stories.  Sales drive the beast and I understand that, but in words of Harvey Pekar "There is more to comics then what is being done". Comics as a medium can be so much more, but by sticking to the safe path and focusing on money, then were would the world be without books like American Splendor?  Harvey spent his life making a lot less then the big shots, he hustled for the love of comics.  A lot of the comics DC cuts profit more then any indie book, the get canned because they think they can make more money else where.  It is greed in the end.  
 
It was fun reading what you think of my blog and thanks for taking the time to share.  You will not move my opinion because I am being turned away by DC, the original point remains.  You can love DC and not be turned away and I am happy for you.  
 
Cheers
 - Silkcuts
Posted by Trodorne

I have to say i agree whole heartedly with this blog, as i can start painting the colour orange on both companies, there are very few books out there to date that i still follow, im pretty much on a head hunting trip for Joe Q, and im pissed at DC for droping some good titles, but i see what DC is trying to do, they are trying to keep their comics to the core heroes and villains so going back to just Titans, Flash, Superman, Batman Etc. they would be making more money per capita than spending money on issues where sales maybe dropping fast soon. 
 
   Marvel says lets do the shotgun approach and get as many people as they can. The idea of the heroic age to me was a great way to bring things back to the way they were. OMIT, and OMD worst stories ever and this i can blame on Civil war. Marvel Comics and Puns, are like cows, they will always be milked. Deadpool being the main series, and shadowland being another, where they have great possibilities for Daredevil epic that they decide to be cheap and steal a story idea from DC. they are always so focused on throwing us a twist just so that way people will be like what? and sell a few issues in the process.
 
  But i digress, good blog silkcuts.

Posted by Silkcuts
@Trodorne:  Thanks buddy.  I as well understand DC wants to Streamline their product.  Unfortunately by doing so, they are alienating some fans and turning away many.  Glad you enjoyed the blog.
 
Cheers.
Posted by Amegashita
@Trodorne said:
"Deadpool being the main series, and shadowland being another, where they have great possibilities for Daredevil epic that they decide to be cheap and steal a story idea from DC."
  Simple question, what story was shadowland stolen from?  O.o, I've been wondering that for awhile.
Posted by Silkcuts
@Amegashita said:
" @Trodorne said:
"Deadpool being the main series, and shadowland being another, where they have great possibilities for Daredevil epic that they decide to be cheap and steal a story idea from DC."
  Simple question, what story was shadowland stolen from?  O.o, I've been wondering that for awhile. "
Unrelated to Shadowland since don't read marvel Monthly.  But it is a comment about Andy Diggle.  I enjoyed his work at DC a lot and was sad when he went over to Marvel.  Marvel has a history of taking Vertigo Talent.
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