ASM Spider-Man Respect Thread

Did a respect thread for Raimiverse Spider-Man, now I'm doing one for the Andrew Garfield Spider-Man from the ASM movies. And yes, when or if more movies with this Spider-Man are made I'll go back and add feats for them. But for right now, here's the feats from the first two movies.

Respect ASM Spider-Man/Webb-Verse Spider-Man

"Every day, I wake up knowing, that the more people I try to save...the more enemies I will make. And that it's just a matter of time before I face those with more power than I can overcome."

Very shortly after first getting his powers, Peter is shown to have greater sense of touch, as shown by how one small water drop to the forehead at 0:31 wakes him up. He then displays his powers of adhesion to a solid surface for the first time at 0:32. At 1:03, Peter's Spider-Sense kicks in, alerting him to an attack from behind by jerk #1, who he then kicks hard enough to send him sliding across the seats and then onto the ground, the man ultimately being sent a fair distance. That Peter profusely apologizes for this shows the attack was accidental/instinctual, rather than deliberate, which in turn means he could conceivably hit even harder if he were purposefully trying to hurt someone. And this is all when he's still green. At 1:09-1:10, his Spider-Sense warns him of another attack from behind and Peter promptly kicks jerk #2 to the ground. At 1:14 he kicks back a man who is bigger than him with enough force to knock him backwards and right into several other people. At 1:21-1:22 jerk #4 swings a skateboard at Peter that he parries with his arm. From there, he deals with the last of the jerks on the train and then at 1:26 rips a metal pole off it's hinges and wields it without effort.

To start, he obliterates a plastic alarm clock with one hit (0:03-0:04), and then accidentally does all of the following: burst a toothpaste tube, (0:09-0:10), rip a metal sink handle off (0:16), and rip a door knob right off (0:23-0:24). These feats may seem like small potatoes, but remember that Peter did all of this without even meaning to, whereas a normal person would have to put forth some amount of physical effort to do these things.

At 0:22-0:23 he reacts to a basketball coming at him from behind in time to catch it. After using his adhesion powers to make Flash look like an idiot, he bowls him over at 1:41 and then leaps incredibly high into the air before then doing a slam dunk so hard that it shatters the glass frame of the basketball hoop.

For his first night in costume, Spider-Man shows he can close car doors shut with a single web-line (0:48 roughly), and then in the span of but a few seconds is somehow able to get out of the back of the car at 0:57 and then get all the way around to face the car-thief at 1:06. This means that he got out of the car and went around to confront the car-thief in the span of nine seconds, and all without being spotted. After using webbing to effortlessly dispatch the car-thief (beginning at 1:17). At 2:07-2:08 he dodges multiple point-blank shots from handguns and then at 2:09 leaps over the cop's head and disarms him of his pistol. He then manages to escape from a police force numbering 38 officers. At 2:42 he swings into the path of a moving bus and then tumbles along the side of it for a few moments after, and he doesn't seem all that hindered by this.

Not much of a fight here, but Spider-Man does beginning at 0:21 save several cars, all of which are held up via a single web-line each (which shows just how sturdy Spider-Man's webbing is). At 0:42 he knocks the superhuman Lizard back with a swinging kick. He then holds up another car via a single web-line.

At 0:13-0:15 he rips off the rear window of a car without effort. At 0:53 he rips a seat-belt buckle out of it's clip. Beginning at around 1:07 or 1:08, Spider-Man holds onto a car with one arm while his other one holds onto a web-line. He lets go at 1:45, though it's unclear if it was because he couldn't hold on any longer or because the part of the car he was holding onto broke off from the rest. Regardless, he was able to hold onto the car with one arm for almost 40 seconds.

Apologies for the poor quality of the above video, but it was all I could find. Not much here, except that Peter at 1:10 catches a football coming towards him while he was busy trying to kiss Gwen, and then throws it so hard and fast that it bends the metal pole of a football goal that it hits.

At 1:41, he takes being tackled by the Lizard (who at this point has been shown to be strong enough to send cars flying into the air and also punch right through their metal roofs), and then manages to hold one of Lizard's hands at bay (albeit barely) from about 1:42 to about 2:05 when he starts to lose the grapple. But still, he kept Lizard's hand at bay for over 20 seconds. He then at around 2:12 manages to break free of the Lizard's grip and swim to safety. After being sent down a drain, he manages to make it all the way to Gwen's house where she patches him up after the injuries he sustained from Lizard's claws at 1:58-2:00. That Spider-Man A) took cuts from claws strong enough to tear right through metal, and B) could still keep Lizard's arm at bay, break free of him, and make it all the way to Gwen's without getting any medical attention at all is noteworthy.

  • Ducks under a sweeping attack from the Lizard (0:31)
  • Pulls Lizard down after firing a web-line at his leg (0:31-0:33)
  • Takes being slammed into metal lockers by the Lizard with enough force to dent them (0:42)
  • Takes being thrown right through a display case and then through the wall of what was most likely concrete behind it.
  • Manages to keep from being skewered by the Lizard from 0:50-1:03
  • Thrown right through a shelf and another wall with enough force to obliterate both. (1:03-1:05)
  • At 1:12 to 1:14, Lizard throws what is basically a makeshift grenade into the hole Peter went through. It's unclear if Peter tanked the explosion or if he had gotten clear of it in time.
  • Using his webbing, he rips some lights off of their place on the ceiling and slammed them into the Lizard's head. (1:27-1:29)
  • From 1:32 to 1:36 he manages to hold onto the Lizard despite Lizard's best efforts to buck him off. And again, Lizard is superhuman. He could smash through a metal bathroom stall (shown at 0:08-0:11), and before that a concrete ground, yet Spider-Man is still able to hold onto him. At 1:37, Spider-Man gets back on him and maintains his hold before Lizard finally slams Spider-Man into a wall at 1:42. Spider-Man shrugs off the hit and then avoids a slash from Lizard's claws at 1:43.
  • Evades strikes from the Lizard using what is pretty much an improvised sword. (1:55-2:00)
  • Ducks a tail-swing from the Lizard (2:06)
  • Catches the Lizard's tail and holds it back (2:06-2:07)
  • Takes being slammed into walls and metal lockers by the Lizard before then being hurled right through a pair of double doors and sliding down the hallway, all the while holding onto his tail (2:08-2:17)
  • Takes being slammed into a window so hard he almost shatters it (2:28)
  • Web-spams Lizard, cocooning him and keeping him restrained. This doesn't restrain Lizard indefinitely, but it does keep him indisposed long enough for Spider-Man to get Gwen to safety. (2:36-2:52)
  • Takes being smashed right through another wall (and book-shelf) at 3:18.
  • Uses webbing to keep a table from hitting Stan Lee and then swinging it right at Lizard (3:22-3:23).
  • Takes being thrown through the air by Lizard before then slamming into a book-shelf and falling to the floor as books fall down on him. (3:28-3:31)

Starting at 0:05, he swings by New York as SWAT cops shoot at him from different directions. Spider-Man stays consistently ahead of every single shot. It is only when he is blinded by a spot-light at around 0:15 is he shot with a taser round. He then falls from a great height right onto a taxi cab that he hits with enough force to crack it's windshield and then go tumbling along the road (0:17-0:24). This seems to KO or stun him, but not for long. At 1:15, he wakes up, and then effortlessly breaks the handcuffs binding him. At 1:16 he trips George Stacy and downs him before then through a mix of webbing and agility takes down a whole squad of SWAT cops. So he was only stunned for 51 seconds (less than a minute), and upon waking up is just as combat capable as before.

After suffering a gunshot wound that really shouldn't have happened (chalk it up to PIS and move on), Spider-Man manages to keep climbing up a building and making his way to Oscorp without any medical attention. He then botches a leap onto a nearby rooftop and falls onto a fire-escape hard (0:25-0:27). He stands back up and keeps going. It is only at 1:26 that he finally bandages up the gunshot wound, meaning he was making his way through New York with an un-bandaged gunshot wound for over one and a half minutes (since he was shot prior to the above video).

After bandaging up his wound, he's able to first run and then swing to Oscorp and confront the Lizard one last time.

  • With a swing kick Spider-Man hits Lizard so hard he knocks him off of the tower (0:12)
  • Both Spider-Man and Lizard land onto a giant spotlight from a great height, though Lizard seems to be the one who takes the fall, with Spider-Man on top of him at the time (0:17).
  • Avoids a lunging attack from the Lizard (0:21)
  • Takes being slammed into the ground by Lizard (0:25)
  • Dodges a canister thrown at him by the Lizard (0:36-0:37)
  • Dodges a tail slam by the Lizard (0:43)
  • Double-kicks the Lizard away from him (0:44)
  • Takes a fall from the top of the tower back onto the ground (0:56-0:58)
  • Evades another charge from the Lizard with help from his web-lines (1:04)
  • Beginning at 1:10, he resists Lizard's attempts to suffocate him with his tail. This attempted strangulation lasts until about 1:54, meaning Spider-Man resisted the attempt to strangle him for over 40 seconds.
  • Kicks an injured Lizard so hard he sends him over the ledge (2:09)
  • Dodges a punch Aleksei Sytsevich (1:57) and then makes it to the top of the truck by 1:58, even though he ducked under the punch. Yet he still reached the top of the truck in a second.
  • Moves his head out of the way just as Aleksei opens fire at him with a machine gun (2:02)
  • Grabs Max Dillon and saves him from a flying taxi (2:37-2:39)
  • Reacts quickly enough to catch almost all of the plutonium vials before they can fall out of the truck, first at 3:49-3:51, and again at 3:56-3:58
  • Takes being hit right in the back by a moving car at 4:18 and is fine, with him sticking to it to give himself a free ride.
  • Leaps off of Aleksei's truck and then over a bus before landing and catching the bus in time to keep it from falling on it's side, also able to hold it up and then push it back down on all four wheels. This is both a speed and strength feat. (6:01-6:18)
  • From 6:37 to 6:40 he evades machine gun fire from Aleksei while web-swinging and then, incredibly, avoids close-range/point-blank machine gun fire in mid-air long enough to fully close the distance between Aleksei and web-spam him (6:40-6:48)
  • Hit right in the chest by a bolt of electricity from Electro that sends him flying backwards and hitting a police car so hard he busts the metal and breaks the glass window (First video, 0:09-0:10). He gets back up pretty quickly and is shown to be no worse for wear minus his fried web-shooter. I feel I also need to stress that Electro's electricity was shown to be powerful enough to blow away a table and also stop a normal man's heart with only a small amount of it. Spider-Man just took a greater amount right to the chest plus other damage, and he's fine.
  • Back-flips to avoid Electro's electricity as it's racing towards him (0:39-0:40). He then leaps over a car and, in an incredible display of both reaction speed and presumably also Spider-Sense, creates first a web-net to keep a car from going flying into civilians (1:03-1:08). He then seconds later is able to use webbing to keep two people from touching electrified handrails before they can get shocked (1:12-1:19)
  • Dodges a blast of Electro's electricity. (1:34) This electricity then causes damage to the surrounding area, showing just how powerful it is.
  • Dodges more blasts of electricity from Electro (1:36-1:38)
  • Uses his webbing to rip a fire hydrant out of the ground and then swing it at Electro, the former being done with only one hand (1:38-1:42)
  • Takes another blast of electricity from Electro before then going smashing through glass (1:42-1:44). It's unclear how long this KO'ed him, or even if it did so at all. But he does eventually get up and use a fire hose to short-circuit Electro and subdue him.

Throughout this video, Spider-Man not only evades some of Electro's attacks, but he also takes a large amount of electrical abuse. And as noted above, a super small bit of electricity from Electro blew away a table, and another small bit of it stopped a normal man's heart. The proof of this is shown here:

At 0:40-0:41 of this video, Electro one-shots a normal human with one small bolt of electricity. Just one. And yet, in the video above this one, Spider-Man is shown to be durable enough to take WAY more than just that one bolt, including at 0:43-0:45 where he takes electricity right to the face at close range, and then at 2:12-2:32 takes a sustained, 20 second long barrage of electricity right to his chest, plus the knock-back after Electro is overloaded following this. And yet by the end of the whole fight he pretty much walks it all off. He is not shown to be frankly at all injured, given that he's still walking, talking, and mere moments later, fighting again. That's remarkable pain tolerance. Especially since, again, Electro showed himself capable of a fair bit of damage with only a small bit of electricity, never mind what he was putting Spider-Man through.

At 0:03-0:07 he is able to leap high enough into the air to catch Gwen. He then goes smashing through a glass roof onto a metal surface, and he's still conscious and combat-capable (0:08-0:09). And this was after all of the electrical punishment he took from Electro. A pumpkin bomb explosion follows this, but it's unclear if Spider-Man either tanked the blast or just got clear of it in time. It seems to be the latter, so that's what I'm going to go with here.

At 0:17, he's able to hold onto Gwen with just one arm and then lowers her to safety via webbing. The Green Goblin comes at him at around 0:21 and Spider-Man evades his initial attack. He manages to play keep-away for a while before then web-zipping towards the Green Goblin at about 0:32. From 0:34-0:38 he manages to hold onto Green Goblin and not let go. At 0:38 he's smashed into the side of a wall with enough force to crumble the stone but he seems unaffected by this. He then at 0:40 kicks Green Goblin so hard he knocks him right off his glider.

At around 0:50, Green Goblin tackles him and manages to pin him. Spider-Man dodges a stab from some weird looking pseudo-knife at 0:58. From around 0:59 to 1:03 he manages to get into a grapple with Green Goblin. It's unclear who, if either one, would have one, but they seem to be able to match one another's strength for at least a time. Spider-Man then head-butts Green Goblin at 1:03, which staggers him. A few more blows and some quick-thinking with his webbing later and Spider-Man has the Green Goblin sufficiently indisposed.

Now, from 1:08 to 1:40 Green Goblin had his gauntlet hand wrapped around Spider-Man's throat and yet despite this attempt at strangulation, Spider-Man is never killed. This means that Spider-Man took having a superhuman's armored hand around his throat for over thirty seconds while also holding onto with one arm a web-line Gwen was holding onto the other end of, and while also placing his foot between moving clock gears to stop them. That's pretty nuts.

Deflects a missile with a manhole cover at 3:01 (don't ask me how that's possible), and then swings the manhole cover about via web-lines without effort, in the process knocking other missiles askew (3:03-3:06).

So to sum everything up:



Agility (Melee)

Agility (Ranged)



Fighting Skills

"You know what it is I love about being Spider-Man? Everything."


Raimiverse Spider-Man Respect Thread

Spider-Man is my favorite comic book character of all time and in running for my single favorite fictional character of all time, even moreso than Batman, my #2 superhero. I've loved all of the Spider-Man movies except for the disappointing Spider-Man 3 and the "they weren't even trying" 1977 film. So with that in mind, I thought I'd do a respect thread for both the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man and Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, starting with the former:

Respect Raimiverse Spider-Man:

"Who am I? You sure you want to know? The story of my life is not for the faint of heart. If somebody told you that it was a happy little tale, if somebody told you I was just your average, ordinary guy, not a care in the world...somebody lied."

Shortly after getting his powers, Peter's spider-sense is already such that he dodges Flash Thompson's punch (itself strong enough to leave a depression in a metal locker with no injury to his hand), and then an attack from behind by one of Flash's friends. Peter also shows good agility when he leaps right over this person. Every single one of Flash's attacks before and after this are dodged as well. Flash never lands a single hit on him. The fight ends with Peter grabbing Flash's wrist, applying enough pressure to cause him pain, and then send him flying several feet and down the hallway with one punch. It's unclear whether or not Peter intended to send Flash flying that far, but it was likely instinctual, considering all of his agility feats were shown to be. All of this was a younger and less experienced Peter.

Time of first Spider-Sense use: 1:40-1:57

Time of second Spider-Sense use followed by back-flip into the air: 2:29-2:31

Time of defeating Flash, first by wrist-grab and then my superhuman punch: 2:42-2:50

In his first fight in costume (and still not at his physical peak, which will be shown later), Spider-Man squares off against Crusher Hogan expy Bone Saw. Now I feel I should stress that Bone Saw was able to curbstomp two wrestlers beforehand, one of whom he finished by jumping off of one of the ring "walls" and landing elbow first onto another man. He seemed to suffer no injury from using this move. So clearly, his muscles aren't just for show.

To start, Spider-Man leaps far enough into the air to avoid Bone-Saw's initial charge (2:07-2:10). He then, with assistance from his webbing (which in the Sam Raimi films are not from web-shooters but rather organic and seemingly without limit) evades another charge from Bone Saw (2:24-2:26). Bizarrely, Spider-Man's spider-sense seems to not work as Bone Saw then whacks him in the head with a metal folding chair. He then hits him on the head with the chair again, and then twice on the back (2:29-2:37). Spider-Man is then grabbed by the leg and slammed into one of the metal cage walls, followed by another (2:42-2:46). For all of this though, Spider-Man has remained conscious, and when Bone Saw tries to bring a crowbar on him, Spider-Man kicks him about ten times, knocking Bone Saw back. A follow up kick sends Bone Saw flying over Spider-Man's head and into one of the cage walls, which finally knocks him out. The whole lasted from 2:07 to 3:04, which means that the fight promoter's claim that Spider-Man pinned him in two minutes is inaccurate. In fact, Spider-Man one in less than one minute, and Bone Saw only put up any kind of a fight at all via a metal chair (in other words, cheating).

From 0:24-0:36 he climbs up a nearby wall before then launching himself forwards to cover more distance more quickly, even though by that point he was already fairly high up (meaning he crawls fast). Then, at 0:42 he leaps from that wall and goes sailing through the air long enough to reach a nearby flagpole that he then launches himself off of. This sends him pretty far. From 0:48 to 0:54 Spider-Man leaps an incredibly far distance on his own twice in a row. In the web-swing that follows (itself a bit more messy and clumsy on his part due to it being his first ever attempt), Spider-Man manages to catch up with the car he is chasing, and then lands on it. With one punch at around the 2:00 mark Spider-Man drives his fist right through the car's metal roof, showing that Spider-Man hits hard enough to punch right through metal. At 2:17-2:21 he performs another one of his superhuman leaps, this time jumping over a bridge so it doesn't kill him. With another punch at 2:27 he shatters the glass front of the car with no injury to his own hand (something you're not going to see a normal human do), and then leaps far into the air yet again to get clear of the car's crashing into a metal gate.

After using the shadows to trick Dennis Carradine into thinking that Spider-Man is in front of him, the web-head sneaks up from behind and then attacks. He smashes his head through two glass windows, and then dodges a few knife strikes from Carradine before then kicking the knife right out of his hand. A double-kick knocks Carradine back and clearly injures him, as he is bent over, pleading, and backed up against the window. A now very enraged Spider-Man grabs Carradine and lifts him up, before then seeing that Carradine is the same man he left run by him earlier. After coming over his shock and horror, Spider-Man reacts fast enough to keep Carradine from shooting him in the face, and then either dislocates, fractures, or breaks Carradine's gun-arm. The scene is ambiguous as to how much Carradine's arm was injured, but we hear a snapping sound and he howls in pain. He then nervously backs away and accidentally falls to his death.

Time of knife dodging: 3:17-:319

Time of stopping Carradine from firing and then injuring his arm enough to cause both a snapping sound and a cry of pain from Carradine: 3:54-3:56

After his first few outings in the iconic Spider-Man costume see him foiling some common crooks in both melee and with webbing, we get the first fight with the Green Goblin. To start, Peter's Spider-Sense alerts him to the danger of the Green Goblin just before the Goblin first appears a fair distance away from him (so far away that the Oscorp board members present couldn't even tell that it was their stolen glider until one saw that it was through binoculars). At 1:12 to 1:14 he shows strength sufficient to pull back and away from falling debris two grown adults via his webbing, and also pull them back a fair distance. At 1:54 he swings in and kicks the superhuman (and armored) Green Goblin so hard he knocks him right off of his glider. Spider-Man then at 2:30 takes a hit from the superhuman Green Goblin that sends him flying back several feet and through at least three tables. Spider-Man's being sent flying is finally stopped by slamming into a lamppost with enough force to cause it to fall down. And yet despite taking a hit like that, Spider-Man is able to get back up again. He then runs fast enough to consistently stay ahead of the gunfire shot at him from the Green Goblin's glider before then web-swinging onto a nearby balloon. From there, Spider-Man plays "leap-frog", leaping from balloon to balloon until he reaches Mary Jane. It is at this point however that the Green Goblin grabs him and smashes him at super-fast speed into a window with enough force to shatter it (3:08-3:10). Green Goblin follows this up by slamming Spider-Man's head into what's left of the window three times.

Still conscious and combat capable, Spider-Man strikes back and holds his own for a little while before Green Goblin is then able to knock Spider-Man off his glider. Spider-Man falls and lands, and isn't at all effected by this. After blinding Green Goblin with webbing to the face, Spider-Man punches through the glider's metal bottom and rips out part of it's inner machinery, damaging it and causing to malfunction enough that Green Goblin has to retreat (3:30-3:32). Finally, he catches Mary Jane before she hits the ground and then swings off with her in tow.

From 0:08 to 0:33, Spider-Man tears into a group of thugs numbering at least four and as many as six. He not only makes swift work of them, he also shows sufficient strength to first pull them all back a fair distance via his webbing and then at one point hit two of them so hard they go flying into the air and smashing into nearby windows. With these two, he also hit them both and sent them flying at the same time.

From 0:48-0:51 Spider-Man takes another superhuman punch from Green Goblin that sends him flying backwards several feet (and also smashing through a wooden door) and...he's fine. He then, in one of my personal favorite scenes out of any of the Sam Raimi films dodges Green Goblin's razor-bats. From 1:13 to 1:21 Spider-Man evades first two razor bats at once and then three at once, razor-bats that are followed immediately by a punch to the face from Green Goblin. Spider-Man tanks this hit and then a follow-up kick while simultaneously dodging razor bats as they make their return trip. He only gets cut by one because he foolishly decided to destroy them with his bare arms (though in fairness he did actually manage to destroy two of them in this fashion). At 1:32-1:34 he ducks in time to avoid two razor-bats coming at him from opposite directions. Spider-Man then hits the Green Goblin hard enough to launch him into the air and then kicks him hard enough to send him flying several feet (1:36-1:41). Spider-Man's mask then seems to resist being burned by some fire, and Spider-Man escapes from the burning building just as an explosion occurs. This also marks the second time he's fought Green Goblin to a draw.

(Note: Apologies for the sub-par quality of these two videos, but they were the best I could find).

At around the 1:00 mark of the first video, Spider-Man sling-shots himself into the air and by doing this is able to reach the bridge Mary Jane is on in mere moments.

In the second video, when faced with the choice of who to save (Mary Jane or the children on the cable-car), Spider-Man first saves Mary Jane and then with one hand is able to hold up the cable-car with everyone inside it by it's severed cable with only one arm (beginning at 2:56). He is then able to hold onto it for over a minute, only letting go at around 4:10 when the Green Goblin punches him. Spider-Man endures both this punch and the previous one and then grabs the cable again at around 4:18. He manages to hold onto it until 5:06 when the presence of the boat allows him to let go. But once again, he held onto it (with one arm) for nearly a minute. Pretty impressive strength feat.

A lot happens here. To start, Spider-Man is sent falling through an old brick building. Despite his efforts to save himself via webbing, Spider-Man still smashes right through a glass window and then tumbles along the ground. This is followed by him taking a pumpkin bomb exploding in his face that also sends him flying backwards and right through a brick wall with enough force to shatter it, followed by him slamming into something metal and then landing face-first onto a pile of bricks. This then is followed by the Green Goblin pummeling him without mercy from 0:38 to 1:22, which is 44 seconds. When Green Goblin makes the mistake of threatening Mary Jane however, Spider-Man gets the determination he needs to keep fighting. First, he shows reaction speed sufficient to grab Green Goblin's polearm before it can skewer him (1:56), and then manages to hold it at bay from 1:56 to 2:04, while the whole time Green Goblin was trying to run him through. This shows that Spider-Man's strength was greater than the Green Goblin's, especially since he was not only injured when he did it, he also sent the Green Goblin flying backwards several feet after overcoming his polearm thrust.

Spider-Man follows this up by first tripping the Green Goblin with webbing and then using more webbing to bring a brick wall down on Goblin. After this, Spider-Man grabs Green Goblin and swings up with him to higher ground, where he then pummels him until Green Goblin finally cries uncle, his doing this showing that Spider-Man would have won otherwise (after all, if he wasn't winning, why stop to beg for mercy?)

Finally, at 4:00-4:05, Spider-Man's spider-sense warns him of the Green Goblin's glider flying at him from behind. Spider-Man leaps over it and the glider fatally impales itself on it's own master.

Early in the scene, Spider-Man creates a web-net strong enough to hold up a police car, and makes it before it falls on nearby civilians. He then swings through the air fast enough to make it through the opening in a truck as it is passing by, which shows excellent timing. When the thugs in the car open fire, Spider-Man swings out of the way of all of their shots, and these thugs are packing machine guns and other firearms besides. Spider-Man evades their shots long enough to get in close and disarm them via web bullets. (0:35-0:45). Immediately following this he uses webbing to send the two thugs flying and onto a nearby lamppost, showing sufficient strength to send them into the air in the first place.

I really apologize for the atrocious picture and sound quality in the above video, but it was all I could find.

Basically starting at 0:30 or so, Spider-Man's powers star to fitz out, and he plummets before landing on a pair of large metal pipes with enough force to bend them badly. He gets back up relatively quickly and looks to be no worse for wear in the end.

Swings by and grabs Harry Osborn before he can be hit, before then attempting to pull the plug on Otto's machine. He begins to rip to rip the large cables out at 3:03, and finally succeeds at 3:12, though it's worth mentioning he'd already started to rip the machinery out of the wall earlier at around 3:06.

Heck of a lot to go through here, so let's get started:

  • Dodges bags of money hurled at him by Doc Ock's tentacles (0:45-0:51)
  • More dodging, with Spider-Man only getting tagged because he was distracted by how his webbing was gone again (0:58-1:02)
  • Tanks a bag of metal coins being thrown right at his chest with enough force to destroy the bag and then the fall to the ground (1:06-1:09)
  • Head endures the attempts by Otto's mechanical arms to crush it (1:21-1:31). To explain why this is substantial, Otto's mechanical arms were throughout the film shown to be strong enough to: rip a metal bank vault door off it's hinges and then hurl it into the air (shown at 0:05-0:10), hurl fully grown men into the air with his arms (an example of which is shown at 0:29-0:32), rip a metal car door off and hurl it without effort (1:42-1:44), restrain Spider-Man's hands (who at this point has already been shown to be superhumanly strong), and other showings. Point is, the mechanical arms are clearly possessed of superhuman strength, and yet two of them working in concert could not crush Spider-Man's skull after 10 seconds of applying pressure. They didn't even leave a crack. That's good durability for Spider-Man's noggin.
  • Dodges the thrown taxi cab door (1:44). Takes having the taxi's ripped off trunk thrown right at him immediately after, with it also hitting him with enough force to send him flying back into the bank. And yet, he's fine in the end.
  • Beginning at around 2:36, starts taking multiple hits from Doc Ock's super strong mechanical arms (and also being slammed into the side of a building over and over), and yet is able to keep fighting.
  • From 3:20 to 3:23 he is smashed into book shelves and tanks the injuries.
  • From 3:40 to 3:43 he is smashed through one window and then sent flying through another one...and he's still able to fight. ultimately battling Doc Ock to a standstill before Otto baits Spider-Man into coming to him (while he discreetly activates a blade on one of his mechanical arms). Aunt May then intervenes, interrupting and ending the fight.

Not as much here, but Spider-Man's powers again fitz out on him due to his lack of faith in them, and he plummets again. This time, he slams into the side of a building during his fall before then landing on a garbage bin before then finally falling onto the pavement ground (0:21-0:25). And yet, despite all of this he remains conscious and relatively uninjured.

While an argument could be made that this is Spider-Man without his powers, I feel this should count anyway because here, Peter endures slamming into a wall followed by a fall onto the top of a car and then bumping into another car and then hitting the ground (0:55-0:58).

And yet after all of the above he's honestly in way better shape than any normal person in real life would be if they suffered injuries like that. For one thing he's still conscious and is not bruised or bleeding at all. Sure, he says "ow, my back", but come on. Any normal person would be dead, or at the very least in need of immediate medical attention. I choose, therefore, to interpret this as Peter's durability returning.

Not only does Peter endure being thrown backwards into a wall and then having a bunch of rubble fall on him (4:11-4:15), but he then shows sufficient strength to burst out of this pile of rubble and send it flying (4:46-4:48). He also, earlier sensed the car being thrown into the cafe via his Spider-Sense in time to push Mary Jane out of it's path (2:59-3:17).

As the usage of three videos shows, this is pretty much Spider-Man's finest hour combat wise, and as such there's a ton to go through, so let's get started:

  • Dodges, parries, or tanks hits from Doc Ock's mechanical arms throughout. And as already mentioned Otto's arms are superhuman strong going by feats. They also go as fast as he can think, sense Otto is directly controlling them with his mind (something he explicitly states earlier in the film).
  • Holds onto a large metal clock-handle attached to a web-line with one arm and then hurls it with enough force to send it rocketing up at Doc Ock and also smashing through stone and then embedding itself in metal. (First video, 0:55-1:01)
  • Kicks the broken pieces of the metal clock handle away from him (First video, 1:06-1:07)
  • Falls onto the metal top of a moving train and then goes tumbling along it for a few moments (also leaving depressions in the top)...and he's fine. (First video, 1:17-1:25)
  • Reacted in time to duck under the top of a tunnel/bridge. (First video, 1:37-1:38)
  • Kicks Doctor Octopus so hard he knocks him back a ways. It takes Otto's arms holding him to up to keep him from getting put on his back (First video, 1:41)
  • Took being smashed right through metal doors and then slamming into the ones on the opposite end with enough force to leave a depression in them. (First video, 1:59-2:01).
  • Smashes through a window and is fine (First video, 2:04)
  • Reacts in time to avoid a speeding train coming from the opposite direction (First video, 2:11-2:14)
  • Falls from a great height and then lands and tumbles along a road, and remains conscious and combat capable (First video, 2:25-2:27)
  • Mask endures close-range sparks, though Spider-Man then removes it due to it's being temporarily rendered ineffective. (First video, 3:34-3:36)
  • Takes having his foot smashed against multiple tracks at a high velocity for almost ten seconds before he's finally forced to stop. While he did endure harm from this, he is shown to still be able to stand upright, showing that his leg was neither fractured nor broken. (First video, 4:00-4:10)
  • In an incredible feat of strength and pain tolerance, Spider-Man (with assistance from multiple web-lines) manages to bring a speeding and out of control train to a halt. This takes everything he had strength wise, and he collapsed from fatigue (Second video, 0:00-0:47). One bit of shameless Jesus allegory later, and Spider-Man regains consciousness, though he remains weakened enough that Doc Ock is able to one-shot him. Later though, he effortlessly breaks free of his metal restraints at Harry Osborn's house (Second video, 4:49-4:50).
  • Now, in the extended cut, some additional scenes are added. More specifically, at 2:51-2:52 of the third video, Spider-Man plants Doc Ock into the top of the train, and at 2:59-3:08 takes being slammed into the metal top of the train by Doc Ock's arms and then a window with enough force to shatter it. He then, at 3:16-3:22 takes having his head slamming into metal objects lining the train track at a high velocity, before then, at roughly 3:24 getting hit by a train, and incredibly, tanking it. No seriously. He gets hit by a train and then swings back in for another go seemingly no worse for wear. That's pretty nuts.

And here's another major scene with a lot to it...

  • Manages to web Doc Ock's tentacles together (First video, 1:24)
  • Took being thrown right through the roof of the pier warehouse (First video, 1:28)
  • Smashed through a window feet-first and is fine (First video, 1:34-1:35)
  • Kicked Doc Ock so hard he sent him smashing through the wooden floor of the warehouse (First video, 1:37-1:38)
  • With one web-line, is able to hold onto Mary Jane as she's being sucked into what is pretty much a miniature sun that has an intense gravitational pull. He manages to keep her from getting sucked in before the metal chains around her legs get sucked in and she in turn becomes more light-weight, allowing Spider-Man to pull her to safety (First video, 2:02-2:08)
  • Took having a large wooden beam slammed onto his back by Doc Ock's tentacles (First video, 2:12-2:13). He then takes being thrown into something metal and then landing hard and getting rubble dumped on top of him. (First video, 2:17-2:19)
  • At 2:41 (First video), he manages to finally best Doc Ock by putting some large cables in-between him and Doc Ock's blade, which electrocutes Doc Ock into submission.
  • Rips large cables out of their sockets (First video, 2:43-2:48) and then taking being blasted backwards by the electrical explosion (First video, 2:48-2:52).
  • Beginning at 2:58 of the second video, Spider-Man manages to (with some strain on his part) hold up a large wall of a collapsing warehouse to keep it from crushing Mary Jane and himself. He manages to hold it up until 4:03 (over a minute) before then hurling it away. Whether he did this via his own strength or because the gravitational pull of the mini-sun made it easier to dispose of the partly metal wall is unclear, but given that said mini-sun had already been drowned in the river, it's possible Spider-Man did via his own strength. Impressive either way.

And now for the Spider-Man 3 feats. As I mentioned above, I didn't actually like this movie very much, but it did have some solid action scenes that make Raimi Spider-Man look all the more impressive, so I'm including the feats from this film anyway. To begin with, Peter's first fight against New Goblin:

To go over everything here:

  • Takes punches from New Goblin throughout. This is impressive because New Goblin possess superhuman strength sufficient to rip a huge chunk of a brick wall off (1:04-1:07), and then pulverize that wall chunk with a single hit (1:14). And yet despite all of that Peter took multiple punches from him. He also took being slashed with New Goblin's wrist blades and kept fighting, as well as being hit by New Goblin's glider, which as shown later in the video can sever metal pipes, and also hit Peter so hard he went flying into a brick wall with enough force to leave a crater in it (0:37-0:39). So taking hits from the glider is impressive also.
  • Swung fast enough to be able to evade/outpace New Goblin on his glider
  • At 1:26-1:32 he took having his body slammed against the side of a building repeatedly as New Goblin flew by said building holding onto Peter's leg, and then immediately after endured being thrown right through two windows.
  • Beginning at about 1:44 he engages New Goblin in a contest of strength and ultimately manages to force him off of his own sky-stick at 1:50, also throwing him a pretty far distance.
  • At 2:04 he tanks another hit from New Goblin, but then as he falls he manages to land on the building feet-first and then roll along it, rather than tumbling along gracelessly.
  • From 2:10-2:14 he manages to outrun New Goblin on his glider while on foot, also ducking in time to evade his charge (and New Goblin's glider is here shown to be strong enough to sever metal pipes).
  • Beginning at 3:06 he manages to outpace five razor-bats hurled at him by New Goblin for a while, and even when they catch up with him and cut him he's still able to keep swinging. Also worth noting that these same razor-bats were able to effortlessly go through a metal pipe (3:06-3:07) yet only deal him slight wounds.
  • At around the 3:30 mark Peter starts neutralizing the remaining four razorbats with his webbing. He then at around 3:35 hurls a razor-bat via webbing back at New Goblin, which distracts him enough for Peter to create a web-line that New Goblin flies into, launching him off his glider and into a metal pipe that he hits with enough force to get knocked out. This ends the fight in what is a clear win for Peter.

Moves fast enough to not only catch Gwen before she falls to her death, but also moves both her and himself past some nearby rubble right before it smashes together (2:35-2:37).

At 1:16, Spider-Man takes a punch from Sandman that sends him flying out of the back of the armored truck (and through metal doors) and then onto the road, and he's fine. Beginning at about 1:37 he takes additional hits from Sandman. Now, I feel I should stress that Sandman has shown himself to be strong enough to go right through the metal roof of a truck (shown earlier in the video at 0:39), and he did hit Spider-Man hard enough to send him through the metal doors of the truck. In the video below he's shown to hit so hard that he pulverizes stone with his blows. So Sandman is clearly possessed of superhuman strength, and yet Spider-Man takes multiple hits from him. At about 1:39 he goes swinging right into the front of a bus and hits it with enough force to badly crack the front...and he's fine. At 1:42 he's hit by Sandman so hard he goes through one of the metal sides of the truck, and still he's conscious and combat capable. Finally, at around 1:52 he gets caught in a car crash that sees the truck he's in go tumbling along the road...and he comes out no worse for wear.

Before we begin with the next few, I would like to preface by saying that I don't believe that the black costume actually enhanced Spider-Man at all in the movies. Spider-Man does mention how the "power" of the symbiote feels good, but I could argue that part of that is just the intoxicating and corrupting nature of the symbiote, and that the feeling was more psychological than factual. And besides that, none of Spider-Man's showings with the symbiote were things he did not already display the ability to do strength and durability wise, so therefore in the end I argue that the symbiote did not enhance him and thus have no problem showing symbiote Spider-Man showings here. With that out of the way, the second fight against Sandman:

Lot to go through here:

  • Moves out of Sandman's way before the villain can hit him (1:58 about), and then dodges a punch from him that pulverizes the part of stone that his fist strikes instead (1:59 about)
  • With a swinging double-kick he hits Sandman and then keeps up the swing so as to get him further down the tunnel and then over the edge, causing Sandman to land on a lower track.
  • Tanks a kick from Sandman followed by a back-hand from one of his sand-fists (2:29-2:30)
  • Moves out of the way of a speeding train in time (2:31-2:32)
  • Kicks Sandman so hard he sends him right into a nearby train. Sandman then lands on something metal. (2:38-2:40)
  • Takes a head-butt from Sandman (2:50-2:51), followed by hitting the sides of two moving trains in succession (2:52-2:54), and then a punch from Sandman that sends him flying backwards into the window of a moving train (2:54-2:56), and yet he still manages to keep fighting.
  • After taking another punch to the face from Sandman, Spider-Man and Sandman land on a metal pipe. Spider-Man punches Sandman so hard that the pipe splits in two and both Spider-Man and Sandman go plummeting (3:04-3:05).
  • With a swinging double-kick he impacts a large metal pipe so hard he leaves a large depression in it (3:28 roughly).
  • Spider-Man manages to rip apart the aforementioned large metal pipe, and in doing so unleash a large torrent of water (3:32-3:40). This takes Sandman down.

Lot to go through here, too:

  • Takes a stab to the side at around 0:49, and yet keeps fighting for almost two minutes after that without getting any medical attention whatsoever. And he doesn't even look all that inconvenienced by it either.
  • Dodges a sweeping attack from Harry's arm-blades (0:58)
  • Kicks the superhuman Harry so hard he sends him flying backwards and into a nearby wall (0:59-1:00).
  • Dodges another sweeping attack from the arm blades, and then another one after that. (1:02-1:03)
  • Catches Harry's arm and holds it at bay (1:06-1:10). And again, Harry is superhuman, so keeping his arm at bay is no small feat.
  • Ducks under a stab from Harry's arm blades (1:12) and then breaks them before Harry can pull them out of the pillar (1:13)
  • Takes a kick from Harry that sends him flying into the air, crashing onto a table, and then sliding along the table (1:16-1:18). As his taunt to Harry shows, he's unfazed by this.
  • Kicks Harry so hard he sends him flying through the air and smashing through a window (1:27-1:31).
  • Stops a charge from Harry and then throws him to the side (1:40-1:42)
  • Punches through and shatters windows without injury or inconvenience (1:42-1:44)
  • Throws Harry into the air (1:47-1:49)
  • Evades strikes from Harry's sword from 2:03-2:08 and then again from 2:13 to 2:15
  • Brings Harry down at 2:50
  • Evades a pumpkin bomb thrown at him from behind at 3:00 and then via web-line returns it to sender.

And now, at long last, the big finish. Disappointing as this movie was overall they still knew how to end it on a high note, and that's this epic battle royale:

So, for that first video...

  • Takes being hit by Venom so hard his body obliterates the top of the taxi cab (which includes a lot of broken glass), and he's fine (1:13-1:15).
  • Takes being whacked by Venom and then falling pretty far before landing in Venom's web-net (1:33-1:37).
  • Takes Venom dropping on top of him from a great height (1:43)
  • Breaks one hand free of Venom's webbing (2:36)
  • Managed to contend with Venom for a time before then getting hit by him repeatedly. Spider-Man takes these hits as he plummets before then ripping off some of Venom's goo/webbing. He then tries using webbing to swing to safety and keep from hitting the ground outright, but he still tumbles along it. He remains conscious and combat capable after this happens however (2:40-3:05).
  • Cart-wheels out of the way of a punch from Giant Sandman (3:53)

And for video #2:

  • Takes first a swing kick from Venom that then sends him flying into metal, then falling onto more metal, and then getting a double-kick from Venom that sent him falling and crashing onto yet more metal (0:21-0:27). He gets back up, and is still able to fight.
  • Beginning at 0:40 and ending at 1:28 (meaning this all went on for 48 seconds), Venom attempts to strangle him via his own webbing. While Spider-Man is resisting Venom's efforts to strangle him, giant Sandman repeatedly slams his fist down on Spider-Man, hitting him at least half a dozen times (possibly more while MJ was looking up at the car and while the anchorman was talking), and yet even after the fifth one Spider-Man was still conscious and reaching for Mary Jane. That he is up and talking (and fighting) again very shortly after New Goblin comes to his rescue is also noteworthy, showing he wasn't taken out for very long, even though he'd been hit with a giant sand fist at least six times while also being strangled for almost a minute. And remember: Sandman when human sized was able to pulverize stone with his blows and when bigger then that but still far, far smaller than he is here was able to go right through an armored car roof. Just imagine how much damage giant Sandman's fists could do going by that. And yet Spider-Man took six hits from him (while being strangled), and after getting just a few moments to regain his strength is back on his feet.
  • After being thrown by New Goblin he kicks Venom so hard he not only sends him upwards, but through a metal floor and then ultimately hitting a girder so hard he bends it a bit. (2:31-2:33)

But wait! One last video!

  • Took a direct hit from giant Sandman that sent him flying into something metal that he then hit at what must have been some kind of velocity before then falling and landing hard onto a metal surface. (0:15-0:18)
  • Thrown right into a girder that he hits face-first (1:06) before then being punched by Venom (1:07) and then falling onto a wooden table before tumbling along the ground (1:08-1:11). He is still conscious even after all of this.
  • Smacked across the face three times by Venom with a large metal pipe. That Venom's superhuman means these strikes will be hitting even harder than if it were a normal person (1:15-1:25). He is still conscious, and his face isn't cut or bleeding at all, though it does look a bit bruised. However, considering everything he's taken at this point, it's unclear what specifically caused those.
  • At around 2:46-2:47 he breaks free of Venom's webbing at last. He breaks free of the other web-line at 2:54-2:55. From there he (with the metal pipe Venom used) hits him so hard he knocks him back a ways.
  • From 3:02/3:03-3:12, he plunges multiple metal pipes into a concrete floor, putting enough force forward to successfully put them in the ground. He was also during this able to hit Venom with a metal pipe so hard he knocked him back to the ground.
  • With a single web-line, Spider-Man manages to (with some difficulty) pull Eddie Brock out of the Venom symbiote (3:22-3:28).

Phew. That was a lot to go through. But, it's finally done!

So to sum everything up:


  • When younger, grabbed Flash Thompson's wrist and applied enough pressure to hurt him before then sending him flying down a hallway with one punch.
  • Also when still green, punched right through the metal roof of a car, before later punching through it's glass front with enough force to shatter it.
  • Dislocated, fractured, or broke a man's wrist and in so doing disarmed him of his gun
  • Repeatedly pulled people with enough force to send them flying backwards via his web-lines.
  • Punched right through the metal bottom of Green Goblin's glider and damaged it.
  • Repeatedly showed he could grab and swing with fully grown adults in his arms.
  • Destroyed metal razor-bats with his bare-hands.
  • Hit the Green Goblin hard enough to knock him into the air once, and then kicked him hard enough to send him flying back several feet.
  • Sent two thugs flying into the air and through nearby windows at the same time.
  • Held onto a cable attached to a cable-car full of people with one arm for first over a minute and then again for almost another minute, and both times he did not let go because he could not hold on any longer.
  • Kept the Green Goblin's polearm at bay while injured and then sent him flying through the air when he pushed him away.
  • Brought down a brick wall on the Green Goblin via webbing.
  • Ripped machinery panels out of the wall they were attached to by pulling on their cables.
  • Burst out of a pile of rubble and sent most of it flying as he did.
  • Held onto a large metal clock-hand attached to a web-line with one arm and then hurled it with enough force to send it rocketing up at Doctor Octopus and also smashing through stone and then embedding itself in metal.
  • Kicked the broken pieces of the aforementioned metal clock handle away from himself.
  • Smashed right through a window feet-first several times.
  • With assistance from his web-lines brought a speeding train to a halt (maximum of what he is capable of, as he fainted from exertion afterwards).
  • Effortlessly broke free of metal restraints
  • Kicked Doc Ock so hard he sent him smashing through the wooden floor of the warehouse.
  • With one web-line, was able to hold onto Mary Jane as she was being sucked into what was pretty much a miniature sun that had an intense gravitational pull.
  • Ripped large cables out of their sockets.
  • Managed to (with some strain on his part) hold up a large wall of a collapsing warehouse to keep it from crushing Mary Jane and himself. He managed to hold it up for over a minute before then hurling it away, the latter part possibly assisted by the mini-sun's gravitational pull sucking it in.
  • Engaged the superhuman New Goblin in a contest of strength and ultimately managed to force him off of his own sky-stick, also throwing him a pretty far distance.
  • Kicked Sandman so hard he sent him hurtling into a train.
  • Punched Sandman so hard the pipe he and Spider-Man were on, already possibly damaged from their landing on it, split in two and gave way.
  • With a swinging double-kick he busted metal
  • Ripped apart a large metal pipe and in doing so unleashing a huge torrent of water.
  • Kicked the superhuman New Goblin so hard he sent him flying backwards and into a nearby wall. In this same fight he also caught Harry's arm and held it at bay for a time, kicked Harry so hard he sent him flying through the air and smashing through a window, stopped a charge from him and then threw him to the side, punched and shattered windows with ease, and threw Harry into the air.
  • Broke free of Venom's restraining webbing after being held by it for a time. Did this twice.
  • With assistance from the momentum that would have been generated by New Goblin throwing him, he hit Venom so hard he sent him through a metal/concrete floor and then flying through that and onto a girder that Venom hit hard enough to bend it slightly.
  • Could (with assistance from metal pipes) hit Venom hard enough to knock him back a ways.
  • Plunged multiple metal pipes into a concrete ground, bringing to bear enough strength to be able to put them in the ground.

Agility (Melee)

  • Dodged every single one of Flash Thompson's punches when younger, along with an attack from behind by one of Flash's friends.
  • Dodged charges from Bone Saw the wrestler
  • Dodged knife strikes from Dennis Carradine
  • Repeatedly dodged or in some cases parried attacks from Doc Ock's mechanical arms, which go as fast as Otto can think (due to being controlled by his mind).
  • Dodged sword strikes from New Goblin repeatedly.
  • Reacted in time to duck under the top of a tunnel/bridge while fighting on top of a moving train.
  • Ducked in time to avoid New Goblin zooming towards him on his metal-pipe severing glider.
  • Evaded punches from Sandman
  • Dodged multiple hits from New Goblin's arm blades
  • Dodged multiple attacks from New Goblin's sword, both when on foot and when web-swinging.
  • Evaded a punch from Giant Sandman

Agility (Long Range)

  • Evades first two razor bats at once and then three at once, before then dodging the razor-bats as they make their return trips (showing he can dodge weapons with a boomerang/ricochet feature) and then two that were coming at him from different directions at once.
  • Evaded machine gun fire while web-swinging for roughly 10 seconds.
  • Dodged bags of money hurled at him by Doctor Octopus for roughly 6 seconds, and then again for four more seconds before his being distracted by his webbing disappearing causes him to get tagged.
  • Dodged a taxi cab door thrown at him by Doc Ock
  • Reacted in time to avoid a speeding train coming from the opposite direction.
  • Moved out of the way of a speeding train during his fight with Sandman
  • Dodged a pumpkin bomb thrown at him from behind by New Goblin


  • When younger took being hit in the head with a metal folding chair being chair twice followed by two more strikes to the back and then being slammed into the metal walls of a cage ring.
  • Took a hit from the superhuman Green Goblin that sent him flying several feet through the air and through multiple tables, glass, and finally crashing into a metal lamppost with enough force to bring it down.
  • Took being slammed into a glass window by the Green Goblin at a high velocity and then having his head slammed into what was left of the window (including metal) three times.
  • Took falling off Green Goblin's glider, onto the ground below.
  • Took a punch from the Green Goblin that sent him flying several feet and through a wooden door along with follow-up hits (and also a cut from a razor-bat).
  • Took (in order): two punches from Green Goblin, being sent through a brick wall, smashing through a glass window, a pumpkin bomb blowing up in his face, smashing through a brick wall from the force of said blast, slamming into something metal and then falling onto a pile of bricks, and getting the tar beaten out of him by Green Goblin. Was only temporarily downed by all of this and still remained conscious, also being able to keep fighting.
  • Plummeted before landing on a pair of large metal pipes with enough force to bend them badly. Walked it off/shrugged it off.
  • Tanked a bag of metal coins being thrown right at his chest with enough force to destroy the bag and then the fall to the ground.
  • Head endured the attempts by Otto's superhumanly strong mechanical arms to crush it for 10 seconds.
  • Took multiple hits from the aforementioned super strong mechanical arms on multiple occasions.
  • Took being hit by a thrown taxi's trunk door, the impact sending him flying back into the bank. And he was fine.
  • Took being smashed into a brick wall by Doc Ock's arms repeatedly
  • Took being smashed into book shelves by Doc Ock's arms
  • Took being smashed into windows by Dock Ock's arms, as well as being sent flying into them.
  • Took plummeting and then slamming into the side of a building during his fall before then landing on a garbage bin before then finally falling onto the pavement ground.
  • Endured being thrown backwards into a wall and then having a bunch of rubble fall on him.
  • During his train fight with Doc Ock endured all of the following in order: falling onto the metal top of a moving train and then going tumbling along it for a few moments (also leaving depressions in the top), being smashed right through metal doors and then slamming into the ones on the opposite end with enough force to leave a depression in them, smashed through a window, falling from a great height and then landing and tumbling along the road, being slammed into the metal top of the train repeatedly and then through a window (extended version), having his head slamming into metal objects lining the train tracks at a high velocity (extended version), getting hit by a train (extended version), putting his foot in front of train tracks (which causes it to smash through several at a high velocity), and finally the strength feat where he stops the train (this finally causes him to faint from exertion).
  • Took being thrown right through the roof of a warehouse
  • Took being blasted backwards by an electrical explosion caused by pulling large cables out of their sockets.
  • Took having a large wooden beam slammed onto his back by Doc Ock's tentacles. He then took being thrown into something metal and then landing hard and getting rubble dumped on top of him.
  • Took multiple punches on two different occasions fron New Goblin, who was strong enough to rip a huge chunk of a brick wall off, and then pulverize that wall chunk with a single hit.
  • Took being hit by New Goblin's glider (which itself can sever metal pipes just by flying through them and also bust/destroy other metal objects) so hard he went flying into a brick wall and hitting it so hard he left a man-sized crater in it.
  • In his first fight with New Goblin was able to keep fighting and swinging even after sustaining first a slash from New Goblin's arm blades and then cuts from the razor-bats, which themselves could effortlessly go through a metal pipe. He also took having his body slammed against the side of a building repeatedly as New Goblin flew by said building holding onto Peter's leg, and then immediately after endured being thrown right through two windows.
  • Took a punch from Sandman that sent him flying out of the back of an armored truck and through metal doors and then onto the road. Shortly after this he took additional hits from Sandman, who's sand-fists could pulverize stone. This was then followed by Spider-Man being hit so hard he went through one of the metal sides of the truck, and then this in turn was followed by Spider-Man going right into the front of a bus and hitting it with enough force to crack the windshield. And yet he shrugged all of this off.
  • Following all of the injuries described directly above, was caught in a car crash that saw the armored car he was in go tumbling along the road. And he came out no worse for wear.
  • Tanked a kick from Sandman followed by a back-hand from one of his stone-destroying sand fists.
  • Took a head-butt from Sandman followed by hitting the sides of two moving trains in succession, and then after that a punch from Sandman that sent him flying into a window on one of the moving trains that he then hit with enough force to shatter it. Pressed on.
  • Took a stab to the side from a knife and yet kept fighting for almost two minutes after that without getting any medical attention at all. Did not look the least bit inconvenienced by this.
  • Took a kick from Harry that sent him flying into the air, crashing onto a table, and then sliding along said table. Unfazed.
  • In his last fight in the trilogy took multiple hits from the superhuman Venom, as well as (in order): being hit by Venom so hard his body obliterated the top of the taxi he was on, falling from a great height onto a web-net after one of the hits from Venom, tumbling along the ground, a swing kick from Venom that sent him flying into metal before then falling onto more metal, another swinging double-kick from Venom that sent him falling and landing on a girder, and a 48 second long strangulation from Venom while simultaneously being hit by giant Sandman at least six times (possibly more), the latter of which only very briefly KOs him. He is soon standing and fighting again, not long after being bailed out by New Goblin.
  • All of what was just described was followed not long after by his taking a direct hit from giant Sandman that then sent him right into metal at a high velocity before then falling and landing hard onto a metal surface. This then in turn was soon followed by his being thrown into a girder face-first, being punched by Venom so hard he went flying through the air before then hitting a table and going tumbling along the ground, and being smacked across the face by Venom wielding a large piece of metal three times. And yet after all of this, he's still conscious and is only a bit bruised.


  • Said to have tensile strength proportionate to that of the cables used in bridge building.
  • Could blind the Green Goblin
  • Could hold up a police car and keep it from falling on top of a crowd
  • Web bullets could hurt criminals enough to wind them and give Spider-Man time to close the distance. Could also throw off their aim.
  • A single line of it could hold Spider-Man while he was holding onto a large cable attached to a cable car (albeit barely).
  • Multiple lines of it helped Spider-Man bring a speeding and out of control train to a halt.
  • Could neutralize razor-bats that could effortlessly go through a metal pipe

Fighting Skills

  • Soundly trounced Flash Thompson (when younger)
  • Also when younger, beat professional wrestler Bone Saw in a cage match in less than a minute, even when the latter resorted to blatant cheating to give himself an edge.
  • Stomped Dennis Carradine
  • Took out at least four (maybe six) thugs accosting Mary Jane in less than half a minute.
  • Fended off the Green Goblin twice, and in their third encounter managed to gain the upper hand to the point that Green Goblin cried uncle.
  • Fought evenly with Doctor Octopus twice, beating him with some environmental aid in Round 3.
  • Beat New Goblin twice
  • Beat Sandman while bloodlusted (albeit with assistance from water)
  • Contended with Venom before coming to be on the losing end before then finally beating him after exploiting his symbiote's weakness to sonic vibrations.

And that's everything. With all of that out of the way, I hope you come to respect the Sam Raimi Spider-Man as much as I do.

"Whatever life holds in store for me, I will never forget these words: With Great Power, comes Great Responsibility. This is my gift, my curse. Who am I? I'm Spider-Man."


Titans TV Show-What I'd like to see Part II

So with my last blog post having covered what I’d like to see out of the Titans show in respects to the Titans themselves, I think now it’s time to consider what villains could work for the show, and which ones would be desirable:

The Villains:


  • What I’d like to see: The beautiful thing with Deathstroke is that every adaptation is an excuse to give him another badass redesign of his costume. The Titans show should be no exception. However, I think that for this show a costume that really pays homage to his classic look is desirable. As in, armored, but not bulky armor (reflecting the classic chainmail look), and with some orange to balance out the blue. The mask being retained is of course a must, but that’s easy to do. Deathstroke’s superhuman physicality being retained is probably necessary (he IS fighting a bunch of superhumans after all), and what definitely needs to be kept is his fighting ability and cunning, which can allow him to both outthink the Titans as well as outfight them, making him a truly daunting adversary, just like in the comics. Obviously, I do kind of want to see at least one instance of Deathstroke taking Nightwing to school, and the fact that Batman will be appearing in this show gives me the faintest of hopes that Deathstroke showing up could give us the first live action take on a Batman Vs. Deathstroke battle…ever.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Deathstroke may have credibility as a Batman villain (and thanks to Arrow a Green Arrow villain), but he is generally considered the Teen Titan’s chief foe, and with good reason. The major Teen Titans story Judas Contract had him as the main villain, the third Ravager has been both an ally and an enemy to the Titans, and of course there’s Slade from the Teen Titans cartoon. So in all, Deathstroke is a perfectly logical choice, and especially since the presence of Nightwing and Batman in the show leaves open the possibility (however remote) of a live action Batman/Deathstroke or Batman and Nightwing Vs. Deathstroke fight. Who doesn’t want to see that? (Rhetorical question).
  • What are the odds?: Unfortunately not good. Not only has he already shown up on Arrow, but Manu Bennet’s doing such a fine job with the character makes his a tough act to follow. To make Deathstroke work on Titans, they’d have to give him an entirely different backstory, and also probably have him start out as Deathstroke from the beginning to distance themselves from Slade’s “hero turned to the Dark Side” backstory in Arrow. But again, his being such a major foe in that show makes his inclusion in a completely unrelated live action DC show highly unlikely. Only his being the Titan’s arch-enemy ensures that he still has any kind of chance at all.


  • What I’d like to see: Basically go the route the cartoon did, namely by making him the “Bigger Bad”. The ultimate, satanic evil that is reserved for the tail end of the show or at least after the show’s established a solid foundation and following, say, by Season 3 (if the show lasts that long). So really a big thing with Trigon is saving him for just the right moment. And when he does show up, there can’t be any skimping with the special effects here. More than any other character, even the already-confirmed Raven and Starfire, with Trigon they need to either go big or go home. I think for inspiration, Moloch from Sleepy Hollow would be a good way of doing a live action Trigon (only bigger of course), and then cranking it up a notch or two.
  • Why he’s a good choice: His status as the Bigger Bad and Ultimate Evil make him a good choice for a looming threat that’s present throughout the series and finally comes into play later on. And with Raven confirmed, featuring her archnemesis father is kind of a no-brainer. And of course, Trigon’s inclusion makes the inclusion of other villains like Brother Blood even more likely.
  • What are the odds?: Good. While his powers and appearance could be a potential budgetary concern, I also feel like that’s the only thing keeping him back. He’s the arch-enemy to one of the confirmed cast members, he’s a major threat, and he’s one of the more well known Teen Titans villains. Really with all of that I think he’s liable to appear, if not right away. But again, that’s just as well.


  • What I’d like to see: Funny thing is, with this one I’m not sure what exactly I’d like to see. On the one hand, a team of supervillains to combat the heroic team has potential, and the HIVE could also serve as a good excuse for having the “Monster of the Week” formula that live action DC shows on CW have embraced every time. On the other hand, portraying them as a largely human terrorist organization in the vein of Hydra could also be possible, and the recurring menace of Hydra in the MCU means non-comic book audiences are already well-accustomed to megalomaniacal terrorist organizations with quirky names. Really, with HIVE there are many different ways it could go. They could even, conceivably, do a mix of the suggestions above.
  • Why they’re a good choice: Again, all of the different ways you could do them right means they’re worth using just to see what way works best. Their being an organization also makes them a good choice for recurring villains that can stand to lose a few individual members and keep on pushing. They more then many other villains could really challenge the Titan’s team dynamics and make them work harder on them so as to be better suited to deal with what could easily come off as a dark reflection of themselves.
  • What are the odds?: Good. Even granting that HIVE has been confirmed to exist in Arrow, I doubt that show has any strong hold on them, and especially since they’ve yet to feature strongly in any of that show’s stories. I think the Titans show can probably get away with including HIVE pretty easily.

Brother Blood

  • What I’d like to see: Whereas Arrow’s Brother Blood was pretty much an “in-name-only” take on the character, Titan’s Brother Blood should probably try to be more in line with what he was in the comics. Okay, so the Skeletor-esque appearance will likely have to be altered, but crazy cults and satanic fanatics are nothing new to live action, and Brother Blood can be pretty easily converted into a more down-to-earth one to appease the large number of people that are in to that sort of thing. Where Raven would be used for the creepy stuff on the good guy side, Brother Blood would be used for when the show really wants to give the audience nightmares.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Besides the above, Brother Blood has ties to both Raven and Trigon, and with the former confirmed and the latter’s presence as a Bigger Bad possible (and ideal), Brother Blood showing up as well is probably a good choice in the end. His Cult of Blood can also serve as another bad guy group for the Titan’s to face down in place of the HIVE, having a more supernatural/cult bent as opposed to HIVE’s terrorist and/or supervillain bent.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Again, Raven’s been confirmed, and Trigon doesn’t have the worst chance in the world of appearing also, so between the two of them I’d say Brother Blood’s got a good chance of his own. Yes, Arrow technically used him already, but again, it was an in-name-only interpretation. That shouldn’t prevent Titans from having their own, more faithful to the comics, version.

Ravager (Rose Wilson)

  • What I’d like to see: The Isabel Rochev Ravager from Arrow sucked. End of story. This Ravager should for starters actually be Rose Wilson, and have a similar kind of character development to what she got in the comics: as in, start as a villain in her father’s image, and then become a hero and member of the team she starts out as an enemy to. Should Kid Flash be a member of the team, maintaining the romance between them would also be nice. And lastly, her having a costume just as cool as daddy’s and some good martial arts and sword fighting choreography are musts.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Ravager can represent the “bad guy gone good” archetype, which is honestly something we haven’t seen all that much of in a live action superhero show, frankly almost never if memory is serving me right. This therefore could be a first, showing a supervillain who becomes a hero. And again, the presence of Kid Flash could also mean we get a B Couple to Nightwing and Starfire’s A Couple, so that’s also good. And who wouldn’t want to see a good Nightwing Vs. Ravager fight?
  • What are the odds?: Hard to say. A lot of it depends on whether or not Deathstroke will appear. If he does, then I don’t see Ravager’s inclusion as being all that out of left field, especially since it would be a Ravager different from the one in Arrow. So ultimately, if Deathstroke shows, then Ravager likely will too. Otherwise, probably not as likely.


  • What I’d like to see: From a special effects standpoint, Blackfire needs to be the Zod to Starfire’s Superman; as in having all of the same powers and capable of giving her sister a run for her money in a spectacular superhuman battle. Once again, budget cannot be skimped with this character. Giving Blackfire some alien minions (which she usually has in some form or another) would also probably be good, since it gives the Titans someone to fight other than standard Earth-bound foes. Whether Blackfire gets portrayed as an unsympathetic sociopath (like in the cartoons and pre-New 52 comics), or more sympathetic (like in the New 52) will depend, and there are benefits to both interpretations. A more tragic and sympathetic Blackfire may be better though just to have the tragedy (and drama) that comes from a conflict where two loving sisters turned on each-other. Basically, alien Cain and Abel.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Starfire’s already been confirmed for the show as it turns out, and who better a foe for her to face than her own chief nemesis from the comics? And again, Blackfire often has minions to enforce her desires, and these alien foes can help be a nice change of pace from all the human foes if done right. I’d also probably make a case for her being one of the more well-known Titans villains and thus an even more logical choice.
  • What are the odds?: Good. The only thing really holding her back is budgetary concerns, and that’s unlikely to stop her from being included when the CW Flash show has Zoom/Reverse Flash as well as Barry. I don’t see it as being that much of a stretch for them to be able to afford Blackfire if they can have Starfire. Honestly, I think this is one of the ones most likely to happen somewhere down the line, if not necessarily right away.

Doctor Light (Arthur Light)

  • What I’d like to see: A balance between extremes actually. It’s very unlikely they’re going to want to depict a rapist/pedophile onscreen in a superhero show, but I also doubt they’ll want to have a joke supervillain either, so probably with Doctor Light they should try to be more in-between those extremes, making him competent and dangerous, and likely also somewhat intelligent and cunning, but not as twisted and perverted as he is in the comics. I’d probably also like to see them explain his photokinetic powers as being a result of some kind of solar suit (which would also justify the continued presence of a costume), and much like with Starfire, Blackfire, and Cyborg, good special effects with him are a must.
  • Why he’s a good choice: He’s also one of the slightly more well known Teen Titans villains, and not just because of the infamy his being a rapist got him. Assuming they do go that route (unlikely) they’d have a legitimately disturbing and messed up supervillain in their ranks, but it would also probably alienate viewers. Conversely, portray him as competent and dangerous without going that far, and you could conceivably have a solid evil genius type supervillain in the rogue’s gallery, and let’s be honest here: what group of villains is complete without one?
  • What are the odds?: Half and half. Again, neither of the most common depictions of Doctor Light would be likely to be something the show would want to do, but altering him for the purposes of the show would be possible, and it’s definitely not the first time live action has altered a comic book character to suit their purposes. So it’s entirely possible it may happen with Doctor Light.


  • What I’d like to see: Basically, Kingpin with a different name. No seriously. Blockbuster did already sort of have that role in the comics to begin with, and a big scary crime boss is fairly grounded and thus easy to do, so I don’t see why we should break tradition now. His having screwed with Nightwing in the comics in the past means that Blockbuster could be Nightwing’s own personal big bad, and represent a personal foe for him that as the series progresses he gets better and better at combating, alone and with his team. If the show is set in Bludhaven (or else features it as a location) we can have Nightwing fight to take the city back from Blockbuster, and (hopefully) get a brutal showdown between them that puts Daredevil’s fight with Kingpin in the Ben Affleck movie to shame.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Nightwing has been confirmed in the show and it’s as much a coming-into-his-own story for him as it is anything else. So therefore having one of Nightwing’s chief enemies is a logical choice. Sure, it’s hard to imagine him being a threat to the whole Teen Titans, but having him as more of a personal villain that Nightwing feels the need to combat on his own could work. And again, his being a more down-to-earth villain makes using him pretty easy to pull off, and especially so if the show features Bludhaven to any degree. Really, I think he can work.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. His being a major Nightwing villain makes him showing up in a show that will feature Richard Grayson heavily a solid possibility, but his being so unthreatening to a whole team of superheroes means he may get passed up in favor of more powerful (and more exciting) baddies.


  • What I’d like to see: Basically, the tragic story of lies, manipulation, and betrayal that the cartoon actually adapted fairly well. Have Terra come in as the charming female hero who wins Beast Boy’s heart (assuming Garfield is in it of course), only to then cut it right open. Whether Terra “becomes the mask” and regrets her betrayal (like in the cartoon), or is just evil to the bitter end (like in the original story) depends, but I feel that the story can be effectively tragic no matter what. On the subject of powers, Terra’s abilities would definitely be cool to see in live action, and given that we’ve gotten a few earthquake movies already, I don't see her powers as being that hard to capture in live action.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Again, the tragic aspect. A lot of that is lost if Beast Boy’s not present in the show granted, but I’d argue that even without him the story of betrayal can still be effectively done, and besides that she’s a more well-known Teen Titans character and thus more recognizable. Her appearance in the cartoon especially got her quite the following, and thus her showing up would probably get at least some people’s attention.
  • What are the odds?: Depends. Beast Boy and/or Deathstroke’s inclusion makes an appearance by Terra very likely indeed. Conversely, if only one or neither of those characters show up, then the likelihood of Terra appearing (at least as a villain) will take a nose-dive. So basically, the likelihood of Terra showing up depends on whether or not Beast Boy and Deathstroke do.


  • What I’d like to see: A lot of what’s been done with China White in Arrow could easily be done for Cheshire. Essentially, Cheshire needs to be the hot, smug, and utterly sadistic and nasty femme fatale. The one who can match Nightwing blow for blow and who has enough ruthlessness to go around. While the inclusion of Roy Harper is highly unlikely due to his role in Arrow, if he were to appear maintaining the “complicated” romance between the two would be a good choice, though whether it would ultimately be Roy’s being led along, or something to make Cheshire more sympathetic (like in Young Justice) is hard to say. Probably the latter would work better than the former, but at the same time, I kind of feel like Cheshire here should be more the monster she is in the comics. Either way, I feel like Kelly Hu, who voiced the character in Young Justice and also plays her expy China White in Arrow would do great portraying Cheshire in live action.
  • Why she’s a good choice: It would be nice to have a villain that Nightwing can combat without it looking ridiculous (Nightwing Vs. Blackfire or Trigon’s not really a fair fight after all), and as Cheshire is one of the more well known Teen Titans villains, and also has a TV following due to her role in Young Justice, it makes her a logical choice.
  • What are the odds?: Good. Again, Cheshire is a more well known Teen Titans villain, due in large part I suspect to her role in Young Justice. And honestly, Nightwing will probably need at least one or two villains that are on his level rather than above it, and Cheshire’s as good a choice for that as any. Plus, she’s a ninja assassin. Everyone loves those.

Tarantula and/or Hella

  • What I’d like to see: Just as Blockbuster is kind of the Kingpin to Nightwing’s Daredevil, so too are Hella and Tarantula not dissimilar to the Punisher. And given that a killer vigilante with guns is pretty easy to swallow, I think they should probably just do with either or both of these characters what’s always been done with them in the comics and with killer vigilantes in general. Some good gunfights with either or both of them would be nice, but scuffles with Nightwing are also mandatory, showing that Tarantula and/or Hella are as good in a fist-fight as they are with their firearms. If Blockbuster is also present, then adapting the moment where Tarantula shoots him would also probably be a good move.
  • Why they're a good choice: Given that there never has actually been a good live action take on the Punisher, and also that the “Superman Vs. The Elite” type debate is pretty much a standard part of the superhero genre at this point, it’s probably only right that either Hella or Tarantula be included to give Nightwing and the Titans that same moral dilemma. Especially since Nightwing, being Batman’s protégé, would almost certainly be standing as the representative of the opposite viewpoint. And as was the case with Blockbuster, Tarantula and Hella being Nightwing villains makes them good choices as well simply by virtue of the fact that Nightwing’s the main Titan of the show.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Granted, they’re both pretty minor as far as villains go, but so are Brutale, Clock King, and Cupid, and that didn’t stop Arrow from using them. Minor or not, Tarantula and Hella are still Nightwing villains, and thusly one or both of them appearing in a show that will feature Nightwing as one of the main heroes is possible.


  • What I’d like to see: Fox may try to sue, but those pseudo-Wolverine claws would make for some wonderful action scenes with him, and his having tussled with Nightwing in the latter’s New 52 book makes him an ideal choice for some awesome martial arts battles with the grown up Boy Wonder. While the inclusion of the Court of Owls is unlikely, I would still like to see Saiko’s past with Richard Grayson be maintained in some capacity so as to make their conflict more personal and hopefully, tragic. And I also definitely would want to see more of him just because he’s too cool to kill off so quickly. Finally, in the unlikely but possible event that Deathstroke is not included in the show, I wouldn’t mind seeing Saiko fill Slade’s shoes as the vengeful, badass street-level villain.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Again, he’s a Nightwing villain, and one of the cooler ones at that. Really, that should be justification enough, but his tragic past and relationship with Nightwing could also be used to get some legitimate drama out of the proceedings and make him be a little bit more than just another face for Nightwing to punch.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Saiko is both a minor and fairly recent addition to DC, but so is Komodo, and Arrow used him. Much like with Tarantula, Hella, and Blockbuster, Saiko’s being a Nightwing villain is probably sufficient to give him some kind of chance at appearing, if not necessarily a great one.


  • What I’d like to see: Probably something akin to both what was done with him when Geoff Johns introduced him and also what’s being done with Ultron in the upcoming Avengers movie. That is to say, the renegade AI with a bad case of Pinnochio Syndrome. All of the special effects used for Cyborg (if he were to show up) need to be retained with Grid, and likely also cranked up a notch. One thing they may need to change, cool as it is, would be Grid’s skull face, because a live action version of that would probably be prompting whoever owns Terminator these days to ask for a royalty. Other than that though, Grid’s visuals would definitely be a real treat to see, as would a fight between him and Cyborg.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Should Cyborg appear, having a very personal nemesis for him would be good, and Grid stands as being the only really good choice. His envy of Cyborg’s humanity could make for a tragic villain, or alternatively they can go the route of pure evil machine. Either interpretation could work, and again, it gives Cyborg an arch-enemy, something that the character has always desperately needed.
  • What are the odds?: This one depends entirely on whether or not Cyborg shows up. No Cyborg means no Grid, but the presence of Cyborg does not automatically guarantee Grid showing up. It does make it possible though, so in the end with this one it’s really hard to say.

And that's everything. Hope everyone enjoyed my thoughts here.


Titans TV Show-What I'd like to see

With it being confirmed that there’s going to be a live action Teen Titans TV show in production, I thought it only fair to run down who I’d want to see in the show, how I think they could be done, what I’d want to see, and what I think the odds of it happening are. Note that if it’s already been confirmed who’s showing up and who’s not, then I apologize for wasting the time of anyone who reads this.

Here goes nothing:

The Titans:


  • What I’d like to see: With Nightwing, I want him to be simultaneously both the cool-headed and rational leader in the vein of his mentor, but also one of the more easygoing, down-to-earth, and empathetic members who really helps keep the team together, almost like the big brother of the bunch. And of course, hi-tech gadgets, the retaining of his escrima sticks, and above all awesome martial arts choreography not unlike what Arrow gives us are musts.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Richard Grayson is a founding member of the Teen Titans, and it was in Teen Titans that he first became Nightwing. Furthermore, he’s one of the more well-known members of the team, and thus his presence will make more people likely to tune in, attracting more casual fans as well as devoted ones. His being Batman’s protégé will also give the show an excuse to use Batman villains alongside Teen Titans villains, much the way Arrow uses Batman villains along with Green Arrow ones. And of course, the additional presence of Starfire and Raven means a love triangle is possible too for those who like the romance stuff.
  • What are the odds?: Half-and-half. On one hand, the presence of both Batman in the DCCU and the fact that current DC shows Arrow and Flash can’t mention Gotham, much less show Batman, makes the inclusion of Batman’s protégé in another DC show perhaps a bit of a longshot. But on the other side of the coin, many major Batman characters have featured in Arrow, and Gotham is kind of sort of a Batman show that includes most of the members of Batman’s main cast, so a TV appearance for Nightwing is not necessarily out of the question I feel. Fingers crossed.

I'm also going to note that if not Nightwing, Red Robin (Tim Drake) would be a solid alternative, and much of what could/would be done with Nightwing could be done with Tim.


  • What I’d like to see: Cyborg is both the brains of the bunch and also the bruiser, and I think that maintaining that right balance of brain and brawn is key for him. This is one of those characters where good special effects will be key, but also very rewarding if pulled off successfully. Really, Cyborg will need to feel like both a true genius and also a walking hi-tech armory.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Doing this character right would be especially important I feel, because if Cyborg appears in Titans and is well received, it will increase interest in the Cyborg movie that is coming out in a few years, years that Titan’s Cyborg can really establish credibility and a greater fanbase with. Cyborg’s mechanical nature coupled with his inventive prowess could give the writers an excuse to show off all sorts of cool hi-tech gizmos and weapons, and his high intellect could also make possible some more sci-fi esque plots. And of course, with Cyborg comes the chance of Grid, which I’ll discuss in my covering of possible villains for the show.
  • What are the odds?: Pretty good. Cyborg may be a member of the Justice League now but he is also a major member of the Teen Titans, and his appearance in the Teen Titans cartoons that came previously means that more casual audiences will be more likely to recognize him than say, Phantasm (no, not the Batman villain, the other Phantasm). Thus, he’d be a logical choice for the Titans show.


  • What I’d like to see: Raven is where the show can do most of it’s darkest and most trippy stuff, which was also the case in the animated Teen Titans cartoon. Live action magic users have been shown before, and Raven should probably in many respects echo a lot of the creepiness and dark magic that’s seen on among other shows Supernatural and Constantine. It’s already been established that live action TV can make black magic and witches work. Raven should probably just continue the tradition, but with a clear otherworldly bent thrown in due to the fact that Raven is of course not from around. How far they’re willing to go will of course depend on target audience, but as it’s live action I’d imagine they’d probably be willing to do some fairly twisted stuff, especially if Brother Blood and/or Trigon feature.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Again, shows like Supernatural, Buffy and Angel, Vampire Diaries, and all of the different witch shows have proven pretty clearly that live action wielders of dark magic are popular and sell, so Raven’s presence could really appeal to that kind of audience. And like Cyborg, she’s a major Titan and was also in the cartoon, so she’ll be more instantly recognizable then more minor characters they could use instead.
  • What are the odds?: Pretty good I’d say. I may even argue that Raven has the best chance of any of the names here of showing up, and mostly for the reasons I’ve already elucidated on.

Beast Boy

  • What I’d like to see: His being green might be hard for secular, non-comic book audiences to take seriously, but this can be easily averted by just taking away the green. Beast Boy’s power I feel can be accepted by a live action TV audience without the green, because shapeshifters have shown up elsewhere (such as, say, Harry Potter) and it would make for a very fun and versatile character. And of course, Beast Boy can also provide some good comic relief, assisted in this respect by Nightwing and Kid Flash if they make it as well. Really make sure the team knows how to laugh at themselves once in a while.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Again, comic relief, which is good to have when done right. But more than just laughs and the fun his powers could offer, there is also some room for legitimate drama as well in respects to both his tragic backstory, and also possible romance with Raven (assuming they wish to go down that route of course). So between it all, I think Beast Boy could make for an endearing and versatile character if done right. And as is the case with Cyborg and Raven above and Starfire below, he’s one of the more well-known and recognizable Titans.
  • What are the odds?: Not great. Again, the green skin color will likely be hard to pull off in live action. Hulk can get away with it because it’s a transformation thing rather than the skin color he always has, and Gamora and Drax had the excuse of being aliens. And while they could again, do Beast Boy without the green, his more over-the-top background may just cause the makers of the show to shy away from him altogether.


  • What I’d like to see: Considering the largely reviled reception to New 52 Starfire (I’ll refrain from giving my own thoughts on it), it will probably be in the show’s best interests to do a Starfire more in line with the way she was in the cartoon, namely sweet, innocent, pleasant, fun-loving, needing to acclimate to human culture, and above all conservatively dressed. Thing is, that wouldn’t be a bad character premise at all, and so long as they get to show off Starfire’s immense power, I’ll be content. While action on the level of say, Man of Steel, is unlikely, I would not be averse to it if we were to get it. A few good scenes of Starfire zipping through the air here, and a few good moments of her unleashing her star-bolts there, and I’ll probably be happy.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Again, if they go the route that was taken in the cartoon, they’ll probably have a pretty accessible and easy-to-like character who along with Nightwing, Beast Boy, and Kid Flash can help bring some levity to the team. If she and Nightwing are both present they can definitely retain that love story, and if Raven is included as well the love triangle. Starfire’s presence also allows for the inclusion of alien villains in the event that human ones lose their luster.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Besides her being a major and well-known Teen Titan, Starfire can also add an additional female presence on the show, which is good. Her powers might be a budgetary concern though, but in view of what the Flash show is able to do (on a CW budget no less), that hopefully won’t hurt her chances of showing up too much. And Smallville before that wound up giving Clark some good feats of his own, so doing Starfire right shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

Kid Flash

  • What I’d like to see: Basically, everything they’re doing right with the Flash in his show done here, but with the spin of it being that Kid Flash is a protégé trying to come into his own, and also having to be more of a team player rather than a solo hero.
  • Why he’s a good choice: The original Kid Flash was a founding member of the Titans, and while they probably won’t be able to use Wally West, Bart Allan is a Titan in the New 52 and has been for a while before that. If Ravager is one of the villains they could maintain the attraction Bart has for her, and also retain Kid Flash’s friendship with Nightwing, which TV-goers should be familiar with already thanks to Young Justice, which would also give Kid Flash more credibility with a TV audience and thus make him an even more viable choice.
  • What are the odds?: Very low if not non-existent. Flash having his own ongoing show means the presence of Kid Flash elsewhere is very unlikely indeed. Again, Arrow can’t even mention Gotham or Metropolis just because there’s a Superman/Batman movie coming out very soon. I don't think Kid Flash showing up on a show separate from the one Flash is in is too likely.

Besides the above six, other valid candidates would likely be members of the Titans in the comic books currently, such as Skitter, Bunker, and Solstice. I'm not going to give detailed run-downs of those three mostly because I'm not as familiar with them. But they're being in a live action show could really help make them bigger names and make them more popular with non-comic book audiences.

And that’s everything for now! I’ll do a separate post for the villains and which ones I’d want to see in the show. Hope you liked my thoughts here at least.


Who do you want as the Big Bad for Arrow's next season?

After my last thread, which was mocking in nature, this one's serious. Who do you think should be the main villain in Arrow's fourth season, if ever it should get one?

SPOILERS for anyone not caught up with the show. Read at your own risk.

Me personally, I'd rather they not use Merlyn again, since he's already been the Big Bad for Seasons 1 and 3 (sharing the latter with Ras) and featured in Season 2 as well, so I think we could stand to have someone else. Deathstroke's role in Season 2 had a lot to it, and I think after all of the emotion in that season (including the death of Ollie's mother), it would be rather anti-climactic to use him again.

So who would I like to see? I'm thinking one of three candidates:

Like Father, like Daughter


A sort of successor/revenge story. Nyssa's not really known for her ability to be reasonable, and when (or if) she learns that Thea killed Sarah, that the former was not in control will be of no consequence to her. She'll probably seek vengeance, and especially if by that point Ras al Ghul has met his end, and even more especially if Merlyn (who Arrow is/was protecting) has a role to play in it. Between it all, the likelihood of Nyssa getting more reason to hate Arrow is high, and there is always the possibility she could succeed her father as the League's leader. This would allow her to become a major player, and also keep the League in the show after the third season. Another possibility (if not also a longshot) is Nyssa trying to corrupt Laurel and get her to replace Sarah in the League, also perhaps becoming attracted to her as she was to Sarah. Basically, Laurel would be caught between the two sides of the conflict, which would also facilitate her transition from brutal anti-hero to more traditional hero (assuming that doesn't happen in Season 3 of course).

This city's mine now little man.


Brick's been confirmed to appear in Season 3, but so long as he doesn't get offed during the course of that season (or else indisposed in some way), I could see him stepping up to become the main foe of Season 4. If so, I could see Brick becoming an almost Kingpin like antagonist, as in an untouchable and physically imposing crime boss who gets Starling City firmly in his pocket, and then Arrow has to fight to get his city back. This would also hopefully mean that the Season 4 finale is not another terrorist attack on Starling City, which we've already gotten two of and likely soon to be three. So if the main villain is more of an "at home" threat who wouldn't want the city destroyed (because then he can't make a profit), it would hopefully keep the finale from feeling like a re-hash of the earlier ones. Best of all, Brick is strictly a Green Arrow villain, which would make his being the main villain make Arrow feel more like...well, a Green Arrow show.

You should know better than to stand in my way Oliver.

Amanda Waller

I actually think this one is the one most likely to happen. We've already seen plenty of examples of Waller's very loose moral compass and definitions of right and wrong, and her clashes with Oliver in the past, so having a situation where Arrow's very presence gets in the way of her plans would not necessarily be out of the question. Having Waller as a Big Bad could also really shake things up for several reasons:

  • Waller knows who Oliver is, and could blow the whistle on him and thus expose his secret identity for good. This could be a good way to change up the status quo of the show, and really make things more of an uphill battle for Ollie.
  • Diggle's wife being loyal to ARGUS (to a point) will likely prompt some...problems, between her and Diggle, and also put their child at risk (and I wouldn't put it past Waller to threaten Lyla's daughter to force her cooperation).
  • It would make a return appearance by the Suicide Squad very likely, with Deathstroke and Captain Boomerang possibly returning as Squad members. In fact, Waller's letting Slade loose might be one of the main catalysts behind her and Ollie's coming to blows.

So what do you guys think? Which villain (or villainess) do you think is most likely to be Season 4's big bad? Do you think I missed any other viable candidates? If so, share your thoughts below. I still think these three are the most likely candidates, but who do you think will be Season 4's main villain?


My Predictions for Season 4 of Arrow

Disclaimer: Before anyone prepares to go at me with a knife or a verbal onslaught, this post is not meant to be malicious or bitter in tone or intent, but rather more playful mockery. I actually do like the Arrow show, this is simply my own special way of making clear my main criticism of the show, nothing more, nothing less.

So, with Season 3 already halfway done, I thought I’d take the time to predict what will happen in the fourth season of CW’s superhero show, assuming it gets renewed of course:

  • Arrow will get his own spiff car with built-in weapons that he will drive recklessly and cause a lot of collateral damage with.
  • The main villain of Season 4 will be Bane, who’s fight with Arrow will be a scene-for-scene cut-and-paste copy of Batman’s fight with Bane in TDKR that will end with Bane breaking Arrow’s back over his knee. Arrow will then have to get a person of questionable mental stability to replace him and defeat Bane before then having to defeat his psychotic would-be successor. This temporary successor will be Azrael Connor Hawke.
  • Roy will get the crap beaten out of him by Deathstroke with a crowbar and then killed in an explosion. Arrow will keep his costume framed in his hideout and refuse to take on a new sidekick until Mia Dearden gets introduced. Roy will later come back via Lazarus Pit as the violent vigilante Red Hood Arrow.
  • Mia will discover Ollie’s secret identity and then become his new protégé after saving his life from Two-Face Brick. Her father and Captain Boomerang will later kill each-other.
  • Count Vertigo will return, and try and douse Starling City’s entire population with his drug with help from the League of Assassins (may happen in Season 3, in which case Ollie will fight Ras al Ghul on a train).
  • Felicity will get shot by Slade and be confined to a wheelchair forever after. She will then form the Birds of Prey with Laurel and Huntress. Slade will also try to psychologically break Quentin Lance to prove that all it takes is "one bad day" to make someone go evil like him.
  • Arrow will be trapped in a labyrinth by a secret society that has been running Starling City from the shadows since it’s inception, temporarily goes crazy, and then has to fend off this secret society’s seemingly unkillable assassins.
  • New villains introduced in Season 4 besides Bane will include Copperhead, Maxie Zeus, Killer Croc, Black Spider, Zsaz, and Clayface. Arrow will also face a new villain who is psychotic, homicidal, obsessed with chaos, and tries to goad Arrow into killing him as a means of compromising his morality.
  • Arrow will develop contingency plans to neutralize Flash, Atom, and Firestorm, in the event that they ever become evil. These plans will then be acquired by Ras al Ghul and used against the heroes, turning them against Arrow (may happen in Season 3).
  • Arrow will learn that he has a psychotic, spoiled, and belligerent son with Nyssa after being drugged by her and takes this son as a protégé to keep him away from his crazy and villainous mother. His son will become his new Arsenal.
  • Arrow will get cloned by Amanda Waller. The clone will come to have a sleek black and red costume and will be mentored by an older, retired, and bitter Oliver Queen, which will transition into a sequel show called “Arrow Beyond”.

What do you guys think? Do you think my (sardonic) predictions will come to pass? Anyone have any else they want to add?

Oh, and on an unrelated note: Happy New Year everyone!


My Thoughts on the Fantastic Four Reboot

I doubt I'm the only person who's done a blog post to this effect, but nevertheless here it is:

Now, with some new information on the upcoming Fantastic Four reboot being released, most people have gone up in arms over the supposed ludicrous changes. Now, before I go on and give my own personal thoughts on the recently revealed developments, I feel I should stress that some of the information released concerning the film was actually taken out of context. For instance, when they said that the movie would be more "down to Earth", by that they meant more down to Earth in relation to the movies made by Fox, which were garbage anyway. So that's not necessarily anything to get worked up over. And besides that, the MCU films try to lean more towards realism than the comics, and they're still good are they not? Just something to remember.

However, that being said, I do definitely still have some problems with the movie based on what's already been released, and I just thought it best to put my thoughts into words here. So ultimately, having looked at what both sides of the argument have to say, my opinions on it are thus:

Yes, a direct page-to-screen translation has never happened in a Marvel movie before, and would probably be impossible for a couple different reasons, but that being said, there is a difference between taking some creative liberties while still staying true to the fundamental aspects of the characters and their stories, and having something that is "in name only". And honestly, this seems like more of the latter. Besides the Doctor Doom as a computer programmer (which I'll talk more about later), you also have:

  • Problem #1-Reed Richards and Ben Grimm as convenience store clerks: This is not as much of a problem for Ben, since his career is not a defining part of his character, but for Reed I think this is. Let's all be honest here: what Mr. Fantastic is most well known for is not his stretchy powers but his immense intellect, which is frankly a superpower unto itself for him. Reed is the ultimate scientist pretty much, and so to have him be a convenience store clerk, a profession that has absolutely nothing to do with science and doesn't do much to foster a sharp intellect, feels like something that badly undermines one of the core aspects of who Reed Richards is. His being younger I don't mind as much, but his not being in a profession that speaks to one of his defining character traits is something I really do mind. The only way I think this will work is if they make it a sort of "Good Will Hunting" kind of thing, where Reed has this job because he wants to avoid doing something fit for his high intelligence, which would be valid. Otherwise though, this is a problem.
  • Problem #2-Lack of interest in source material: With both one of the main actors and the director both admitting to have never read any Fantastic Four comics and also going out of their way to avoid doing so, I can't help but feel nervous. Do we really want to trust the success of the movie on people who don't care about the source material at all? Look at Joss Whedon's Avengers and Brian Singer's X-Men films: with those movies the directors actually are comic book fans and care about the mythos. Yes, creative liberties were still taken, but the fundamentals were also maintained and the characters treated with respect (mostly). While that could still happen with people who essentially "go in blind" (IE: Warren Ellis and GI Joe Resolute), I think it's a lot less likely to happen, and I feel that once the director makes clear their apathy for the source material and by extension their unwillingness to do their homework on the characters they're doing a movie of, I think it really does hurt the film's chances of doing well with the fan-base, and honestly I think that's the most important thing. While ideally a movie can appeal to everyone, some films still have a target audience, and a comic book movie's target audience should be people who actually care about the characters and their world. If we feel like the film failed to do that, then that is a problem. And let's be honest: that's why the last couple Fantastic Four movies failed, precisely because they just did not do an adequate enough job respecting the mythos. And of course the acting wasn't all that great either.
  • Problem #3-Human Torch's "race lift" and being adopted: This I don't actually have a problem with. After all, Nick Fury got a race-lift in the MCU, and the Ultimate Marvel Universe before that. What I do have a bit of a problem with is the fact that he's adopted rather than being Susan's biological brother, which to me comes off as cheap, and even a little cowardly on the part of the writers. Why can't they have it so that Johnny and Sue come from a mixed-race family, which do exist? Why does he have to be adopted, and thus introduce a whole sub-plot that really isn't necessary and probably won't be very interesting? Why can't it just be that one of their parents was Caucasian and the other was African American? This isn't the 1950s and 60s. That should be possible to show in a movie, especially since the most likely reason Human Torch got a race-lift was to be more progressive. Is a mixed-race family not being progressive?
  • Problem #4-Doctor Doom as a computer programmer/blogger: this obviously is the one everyone's up in arms over, myself included. Now, before I go into anything on this, I feel I should point out that there was an earlier rumor about Doctor Doom being a woman, and that was proven false. Of course, with the actor himself saying this I suppose that pretty much confirms it. In which case, on to the rant. First off, as I made clear in an earlier comment, this aversion to Doctor Doom that Hollywood seems to have really puzzles me. What is it about Doctor Doom that makes his character so unacceptable for the silver screen? Is it because of his armor? Iron Man wears hi-tech armor, so I don't see how that's an issue. His cape perhaps? Not really seeing that either. Thor in the MCU, Magneto in the X-Men movies, Batman in the Nolan films, and Superman, Zod, and Faora in Man of Steel all had capes. And Zod and Faora had both capes and armor, so I don't see how Doctor Doom's appearance is any kind of issue. Is it his personality? There have been grandiose and over-the-top villains in superhero movies before (MCU Loki, Nicholson Joker, etc.) so once again I fail to see the problem. Doom's intellect and backstory are also interesting facets to his character, and I fail to see how either of those should keep him out of a movie. The more mystical and dated elements of the origin can easily be altered without throwing out the whole origin story altogether. In all, I just cannot understand why they felt so compelled to turn Doctor Doom into a computer programmer, which just isn't interesting. Yes, an earlier comment pointed out that Doom does have some similarities to a blogger, but I know I (and clearly many others) don't want to see a team of superheroes be forced to do battle against a...blogger. What's he going to do? Troll them to death? And the fact that this hasn't been done to numerous other movie versions of Marvel villains, many of whom have actually had their basic natures and premises retained, makes the decision to do this to Doom disingenuous and absurd. The only way I see this working, is if this is merely how Doom starts out, and then he becomes the supervillain we all know and love during the course of the film, which I would be willing to accept. Otherwise, this is for me pretty much torpedoes the film, And so, with all of that out of the way, I now go to the last problem I see, which is...
  • Problem #5-In Name Only: Really, this just kind of sums up everything I've already said, and what others have also already said. Again, creative liberties are not wrong, and actually to an extent kind of necessary, but something as extreme and drastic as this is definitely off-putting. And especially when this is one of the most radical examples of it I've seen from Marvel to date, the other big offenders being the 1989 Punisher movie (where he didn't have the skull logo) and the 1990s Captain America movie. While I doubt (and hope) that this film won't fail as hard as those two did, I can't help but fear that it is still going in that direction. And really, what's the point of even doing the movie when it bears next to no resemblance to the source material, including in fundamental ways? You could argue that it's to attract audiences who aren't already fans of the comics, but what happens then? Those people aren't going to become any more likely to get into FF comics precisely because those comics won't resemble this movie. So I don't see much of a long-term gain here. Any sequels that get made I doubt too many hardcore comic fans will see if the first film turns us off so much, and in the end the film loses as many fans as it gains. And the comics probably won't get any. So ultimately, I disagree with the "in name only" approach.

So ultimately, having gone through all of that, I think my views on the film should be pretty clear at this point. Obviously there will be people who will tell me that I should wait until I see the film and then form my own opinion, and to that I will say this: if something new comes along to suggest that the film will be good and worth seeing, then I will change my views accordingly and maybe, just maybe, go see the film. But as of right now this is my stance on the matter, and I do not consider it to be a wrong one since I have looked at the information given about the film and from that information come to a conclusion. I don't see that as being all that unreasonable.

Not demanding that people agree with me though. If anyone wants to see this movie, that's their right. I won't judge. I'm just putting in my own two cents on the matter and seeing what other people think.


My thoughts on the proposed Star Wars matchups posted by Jensaarai1

There is a user on Youtube by the name of Jensaarai1 who has posted a couple different Star Wars matches. I thought I’d give my thoughts on them and see what people think.

Darth Vader Vs. Qui-Gon Jinn

Vader should win this just as soundly as Darth Maul did, if not moreso. First off, Vader is at worst as good a lightsaber duelist as Darth Maul but is actually probably better, given that he fought evenly with an amped up version of Darth Maul, fought evenly with RotJ Luke, who is comparable to both Mace Windu and Count Dooku, and also fought evenly with a version of Obi-Wan comparable to the one Darth Maul fought evenly with. But even if he’s Maul’s equal, that still makes Vader more than capable of besting Qui-Gon in a saber duel for obvious reasons. In terms of the Force there is no contest. Vader has uprooted trees and destroyed cathedrals. Qui-Gon never accomplished anything to that effect with the Force. Strength also goes to Vader, who has supported the weight of a dozen stormtroopers. Once again, Qui-Gon has done nothing to compare and even worse is prone to fatigue as of TPM, which would work against him. In terms of speed however, the two are even. Qui-Gon's physical power was sufficient to repeatedly run invisibly fast, fight fast enough to form shields out of his lightsaber blade, deflect torrents of blaster fire, and strike with enough force to stagger Maul. Vader meanwhile has moved faster than thought, produced afterimages from the movements of his lightsaber, and like Qui-Gon has formed shields out of the movements of his blade and deflected torrents of blaster fire.

So in all, while the two are comparable in speed, Vader outclasses Qui-Gon in strength, force ability, and saber dueling. Really I see Vader only having a ton of trouble here in a straight-up saber duel and even there he wins. If Vader makes good use of his Force ability the fight ends all the more quickly, though I wouldn’t quite say its a stomp given how Vader usually struggles with his opponents even when he wins.

Darth Tyranus Vs. Darth Maul

People almost invariably say that Tyranus/Dooku wins, and looking at the evidence its true. In terms of saber skill, Maul is marginally below Mace Windu by virtue of being equal to a version of Obi-Wan who is marginally below Mace Windu and killing someone who once stalemated Mace Windu. Dooku meanwhile has stalemated Mace in the past and the two have also beaten each other before, showing that they are equals. Dooku has also beaten both General Grievous and Sora Bulq, two lightsaber duelists with comparable skills to Maul (both have stalemated Mace Windu twice each).

In terms of the Force, Tyranus is at least as powerful as the Clone Wars iteration of Darth Maul (the TPM version of Maul lacks Force feats) but is likely even more powerful. Tyranus collapsed a ceiling, Maul collapsed a small cave. Tyranus used Force Choke to kill Weequay Pirates, and while Maul has yet to use Force Choke to kill anyone, his usage of it on Satine, Bo-Katan, and others shows that he would have been more than capable of doing so if he desired. He has also force-choked Obi-Wan, something Tyranus has also accomplished. But while their telekinesis and force choke are comparable to even, Tyranus has something Maul does not: Force Lightning. While Tyranus is not among the most powerful practitioners of Force Lightning, his usage of the ability is still solid, as he has used it to beat Anakin Skywalker and Asajj Ventress among others.

Strength does pass to Maul, and this might give him the edge in a saber duel, but it is unlikely that this would be enough to guarantee Maul an outright victory, especially since General Grievous has also demonstrated better strength feats than Dooku and yet he has still lost to him. In the end, Tyranus does indeed win, though the fight itself is a lot closer than some people might think.

Yoda Vs. Darth Plagueis

This is a close one. Plagueis has demonstrated some truly incredible force feats, not the least of which would be force lightning capable of turning people to dust. Yoda struggled to hold off Palpatine’s lightning and in one instance failed to stop it, and while Plaugueis’ lightning isn’t quite as powerful, its not too far below based on what has been shown, as Palpatine too has used lightning to turn people to dust. Yoda for his part has demonstrated decent telekinesis feats, namely redirecting a senate pod tossed at him by Sidious, stopping and moving a collapsing pillar, and (my personal favorite) lifting up an army of droideaks.

Speed-wise Plagueis has run so fast that his lightsaber appeared as a blur, and also fought off an army of Kursid Warriors without being touched. Yoda however, was able to fight Palpatine as a perfect equal, whose speed feats transcend those demonstrated by Plagueis at best and equal them at worst. So Yoda can keep up here. Strength-wise, Yoda is deceptively strong, among other things having bested Depa Billaba, Saesee Tiin, and Ki-Adi-Mundi simultaneously without any weapons. Plagueis to compare has kicked armored individuals so hard their torsos went flying. Those three Jedi Masters Yoda bested are certainly more impressive than generic non-Force Sensitives, but Plagueis’ strength feats are still noteworthy.

In terms of saber dueling this is where Yoda shines. He has Plagueis completely outclassed in this arena. Plagueis has never beaten a notable lightaber duelist, merely sparred with a version of Palpatine who had not yet displayed any feats and beaten Darth Venamis, who is as featless as they come in terms of saber dueling and is only impressive in terms of speed. Yoda meanwhile has fought a vastly superior version of Palpatine as a perfect equal, beaten/overwhelmed Dooku multiple times, beaten Mace Windu, beaten those three aforementioned Jedi Masters, two of whom are only marginally below Mace in saber dueling, etc. There is no comparison between the two whatsoever here.

In all while Plagueis can easily match and possibly surpass Yoda in the Force department, and the two are comparable in strength and speed, Yoda’s vastly superior dueling skills and the fact that he’s at least approachable to Plagueis in the Force and raw strength both give him the edge needed to win in my opinion.

Darth Vader Vs. Exar Kun

The thing with Exar Kun is that he is one of those Star Wars characters who should be way better than he is. But alas, his feats just don’t reflect his lofty reputation and as such Vader wins handily against him.

In terms of lightsabers, the disparity between the two is not as great as it is in other arenas. Exar Kun killed Vodo-Siossk Baas, who was good only by reputation. Vader killed The Dark Woman and Roan Shyre, both of whom were only good by reputation. So there’s no real disparity there. Where Exar Kun has stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma, Vader has stalemated an amped TPM Darth Maul, a version of Obi-Wan that is technically inferior to his RotS incarnation but still capable, and a version of Luke comparable to Mace Windu and Darth Tyranus that would go on to stalemate Flint while holding back and hold his own against Lumiya while holding back (and being unfamiliar with her Light Whip weapon). This is what tips the scale in Vader’s favor and makes him Kun’s superior in terms of dueling. But Exar can at least give Vader a fight here.

Regarding the Force though, its not even a contest. As has already been stated, Darth Vader has uprooted trees and destroyed cathedrals, not to mention he has utilized other Force Powers as well such as Force Scream, Dun Moch, Alter Environment, and of course Force Choke. Exar Kun meanwhile, has only manifested Force Drain within the confines of his Temples which radiate with a dark side aura that bolsters his powers, rendering it ineffective in a duel on neutral ground. Exar Kun’s Force Blast when not amped by his temple’s energies was unable to kill Aleema Keto (a featless being), and he has shown no proficiency in either Dun Moch or Alter Environment, and his Force Lightning is sub-par. What makes Exar Kun’s mediocre Force showings here especially pathetic is the fact that all of them were done when wearing a Sith Amulet that supposedly boosted his Force ability. When the above was all he could accomplish with it, that’s pretty damning ability wise. Vader wins a Force fight in a stomp or near-stomp.

The advantage in both Strength and Durability goes squarely to Vader. Kun has few if any showings in either arena, whereas Vader has dented bulkheads, supported the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, and continued fighting after losing an arm and suffering other injuries. I'd even argue Vader is better in terms of agility considering he was able to make his way through a ruined Star Destroyer floating in space. Really Exar Kun is pretty badly outmatched. While a lightsaber duel will at least be a solid fight, in an all-out fight or force fight Vader wins with much less trouble.

Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs. Vodo-Siossk Baas

This is the kind of mismatch that is pitting one of the best lightsaber duelists the Jedi Order ever produced against a featless (or near featless) individual. To sum it up: Vodo-Siossk Baas lost to Exar Kun and has no other dueling showings outside of this. Not a one. Obi-Wan meanwhile has beaten/stalemated Asajj Ventress, beaten Savage Opress, and stalemated Darth Maul. He also has Force feats, which Vodo is lacking in. So in the end Obi-Wan beats him just as easily as Exar Kun did, it not moreso.

Kit Fisto Vs. Ulic Qel-Droma

For Kit Vs. Ulic, while Kit Fisto’s lightsaber form Shii-Cho is less useful against a single individual with a single lightsaber, his objective showings (such as doing well against General Grievous and also elite Mangaguards, ones that gave Obi-Wan a challenge) are still such that he is more than capable of holding his own. Qel-Droma's main claim to fame is stalemating Exar Kun, which is pretty good, but not enough on it's own considering Kit would beat Kun more often than not (Shii-Cho advantage among other things). And as with Obi-Wan Vs. Vodo-Siossk Baas, Kit Fisto has decent Force showings that Qel-Droma is lacking in. Even granting that Kit's best Force showings are probably not something he could do on dry land, he has still (alongside Plo Koon) shielded him and his men from an avalanche caused by Asajj Ventress and also moved large machinery with his TK. The one thing I will say to this effect though is that it doesn't seem to be Kit's style to rely heavily on Force attacks, and thus it may not make much of a difference in the end anyway. One thing that might make a difference though is speed, Kit's being such that it astounded Obi-Wan, who has speed showings of his own (such as running in a blur). In all, I think this is a closer, better fight than the above one, but as of right now I think I'll favor Kit Fisto for a majority.

Darth Tyranus Vs. Darth Malgus

While this is not as much of a mismatch as I initially thought it to be, Tyranus still wins a solid majority against Malgus. For starters he destroys Malgus in a saber duel. While Malgus is objectively stronger than Tyranus, so is Anakin, and that didn’t stop him from losing to the Count on Geonosis. Tyranus’ actual dueling feats are also objectively better. Beating the likes of Obi-Wan, General Grievous, and in one case Mace Windu, far exceed beating Kao Cen Darach, Ven Zallow, and Padawan Satele Shan, not to mention losing to the Emperor’s Wrath and Kallig (or alternatively the Hero of Tython and Barsen’thor).

In terms of the Force the two are more comparable, but there is still a clear gap in Dooku’s favor. Malgus’ Force Lightning took down three Jedi Masters who had their lightsabers up, but Dooku’s took down Asajj Ventress backed up by two Nightsisters, all three of whom had lightsabers. There’s no great disparity there. Force telekinesis though Malgus never showed much, certainly not enough to match Tyranus’ collapsing a ceiling or causing a large metal pillar to fall. So while the two are at least comparable in the Force, Dooku is still the superior here, and coupled with his being a vastly superior lightsaber duelist ensures that he wins handily against Malgus. As has already been stated, the only realm Malgus surpasses Dooku in is in strength, and this by itself is not enough to get him a win.

Kit Fisto vs. Darth Maul

With this one it depends largely on which version of Maul we’re talking about. TPM Darth Maul is lacking in Force feats, whereas CW Darth Maul has collapsed a tunnel and made liberal use of Force Choke. Kit Fisto’s best Force feats were mostly accomplished when underwater and thus may not be applicable to a fight on dry land. Having said that, the two are still comparable in the Force arena if we use CW Maul. It not, Kit comfortably surpasses him in this arena.

Speed-wise, Kit has run in a blur, deflected blaster bolts, shaped fans out of his lightsaber blows, and moved fast enough to astound Obi-Wan with his speed. Maul, to compare has disappeared in a blur, sprints five times faster than a human being can run, and travels by leaping distances so quickly that footage from recording devices would have to be slowed down to display him.

But where the two are comparable in both speed and the force, strength passes soundly to Maul, who has broken durasteel binders and thrown spydrs, among other showings. In terms of dueling, the two are comparable. Kit was overwhelming Grievous and also fought Ventress, and Maul is only a marginally better duelist then them if at all. Also of note is that Shii-Cho is useful against multiple blades and multiple opponents both, though the latter is not present and Maul can circumvent the former by simply not having both of his lightsaber blades ignited, though it might take him a few moments to realize that his opponent’s style is Shii-Cho, which could give Kit all the time he needs.

In the end I say Kit beats TPM Maul more often than not due to 1: Shii-Cho (even though again, Maul can circumvent this obstacle) and 2: having Force feats that Maul is lacking in. CW Maul however beats Kit more often than not due to having superior strength feats and being able to match Kit in every other arena. Not to mention that CW Maul's dueling feats are also arguably better than Kits.

Darth Vader Vs. Yoda

Even moreso than some of the TotJ Characters Vs. RoE Characters fights this is to put it simply, silly. Because I’m too lazy to elaborate on this one, and honestly I think most people are intelligent enough to guess why this is one-sided on their own, I’ll just have a bit of irrefutable ABC logic and be done with it: Vader knew he was not strong enough to beat Palpatine by himself and therefore never bothered to challenge him alone. Yoda fought Palpatine as an equal in saber dueling and though he still lost to him at least put up a fight. With this in mind, who do you think wins?

Darth Malgus Vs. Sora Bulq

Changed my verdict with this one. While Sora has fought evenly with Mace Windu, who is a far better lightsaber duelist than Ven Zallow and Kao Cen Darach, the reason for this was Sora's knowing the fighting style Mace uses very well because it was his own. Outside of that fight, Sora has beaten Quinlan Vos, was beating Quinlan Vos when he was in a Force-Rage, and only lost due to assuming him defeated and lowering his guard, which allowed Vos to kill him, and beat Master Tholme. So in all, I see little disparity in skill here. Malgus does have better strength and force feats though, which should probably be the scale-tipper he needs to win. His pain tolerance is also substantial, though I would actually argue that won't mean as much in the end, since lightsabers tend to do their job as far as putting people down goes. Still, with comparable dueling skill and superior strength and force ability Malgus can probably win this.

Qui-Gon Jinn Vs. Asajj Ventress

Ventress should win this almost as soundly as Darth Maul did, if not just as soundly. Ventress is pretty comparable to Maul in saber dueling, and if either one is better than the other, its not by a wide margin, assuming we’re using Ventress later in the Clone Wars that is. The version of Ventress that lost to Dooku, Padawan Anakin, and General Grievous in that order loses to Qui-Gon, but even this iteration of the character still puts up a fight. But the Ventress who has consistently given mid to late CW Obi-Wan and Anakin trouble and was only barely bested by Mace Windu wins handily.

Regarding the Force, Ventress has Qui-Gon beat here no matter which version it is, as Qui-Gon has never done anything close to collapsing a ceiling or causing an avalanche. That said, Ventress rarely uses the Force to any substantial degree in fights, as its not in her character. Its still noteworthy though, as in the event that Force Powers do enter the equation, Qui-Gon is outclassed. So really between that and superior dueling ability, Ventress’ fight with Qui-Gon ends the same way his fight with Darth Maul did unless its Ventress at the very beginning of the Clone Wars, who loses to Qui-Gon after a fierce duel.

Qui-Gon Jinn Vs. Sora Bulq

Another close fight for Sora. Granted, both have stalemated Mace Windu before, but the time at which Qui-Gon did this is ambiguous and it is likely that Mace was not yet in his prime. Bulq conversely has fought evenly with Mace Windu both before and during the Clone Wars and in the second duel while Mace did beat him it was by using the Force, not by virtue of being more skilled (though Mace is in fact more skilled, just not by a large margin). Outside of this, Sora's feats are decent, but Qui-Gon's got showings to rival them (beating the Dark Jedi Xanatos and giving TPM Maul a fight namely). So they're probably pretty close in respects to dueling skill. As of now I'm seeing little if any disparity.

Neither opponent has any force feats of note that I know of, but Qui-Gon does have some pretty good speed feats. Now the one thing to note is that Qui-Gon is quite prone to fatigue as of TPM, but this is largely due to the physically demanding nature of the form Qui-Gon specializes in, namely Ataru. Nowhere does it say that Qui-Gon's skills decreased at all. Nevertheless, lower stamina could conceivably cost him in a duel against an opponent who is roughly his equal as a duelist. Ultimately, I'd say this could go either way. If either one is better than the other in dueling, it's not by that large a margin. Qui-Gon seems to surpass Sora in speed but fails in terms of stamina. So in all, a pretty even match-up. Not sure who wins this one.

Darth Malgus Vs. Darth Vader

Despite Malgus being in many respects a shameless nod to Vader and seemingly being a lot more flashy, in the end Vader outclasses Malgus in literally every single arena. In dueling, Malgus has not ever defeated terribly noteworthy opponents. Vader for his part has again, stalemated his son as of RotJ, Obi-Wan as of ANH, and an amped TPM Darth Maul, all of whom surpass Kao Cen Darach, Ven Zallow, and a featless iteration of Satele Shan (and frankly probably Grandmaster Satele too if we're only talking about lightsaber skill). In the Force Malgus has never accomplished anything on the level of Vader's uprooting trees, destroying walkways, throwing massive droids around, and destroying a cathedral. Many of Malgus' best feats, such as breaking a person's bones with Force Push and using Force Choke to kill someone have either been replicated by Vader (Choke) or just straight up exceeded.

Strength, speed, and even knowledge all also pass to Vader. Malgus' strength is decent, but Vader has supported the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, a feat Malgus has never surpassed or replicated. In terms of speed Vader has moved faster than thought, produced afterimages from the movements of his lightsaber, and has formed shields out of the movements of his blade and deflected torrents of blaster fire. Malgus has replicated some of these feats, so this is one arena where Malgus is more approachable to Vader, but all this means is that Vader will not blitz Malgus. But when Vader's demonstrated TK and dueling are both superior there will be little Malgus can do to challenge him. Furthermore, Vader has demonstrated numerous Force powers that Malgus to my knowledge has never displayed, such as Dun Moch, Alter Environment, and others. Malgus has not even displayed Force Deflection, which Vader has frequently employed.

Honestly aside from speed the only arena Malgus is approachable to Vader in is durability. Vader has continued to keep fighting even after losing limbs and has withstood assault from all manner of heavy weaponry. Malgus to compare survived a close-range grande blast followed by a massive force push (though this was able to put him down and he needed to have a breather mask akin to Vader's own afterwards). So honestly Vader likely surpasses him here too.

So in the end Vader wins this one handily, though not quite effortlessly. Malgus is decent enough, but he simply cannot compare to Vader where it counts.

Vodo-Siossk Baas Vs. Darth Plagueis

Not even close. I've already listed Plagueis' feats above. Vodo-Siossk Baas is literally feat-less. This is a horrific mismatch. Moving on.

Darth Zannah Vs. Shaak Ti

While both are largely pathetic lightsaber duelists, Zannah has demonstrably better Force power. And while her telepathy will not be able to effortlessly overwhelm Shaak Ti due to the fact that like most Jedi Shaak Ti has some TP resistance, I would not put it past Zannah's Sith Sorcery to be able to overwhelm Shaak in the end.

Saber-wise the two are equally abysmal. Neither Zannah nor Shaak Ti has ever defeated a noteworthy lightsaber duelist (and no, Galen Marek, who Shaak was overwhelming in their duel is not noteworthy, quite the opposite). The only half-decent feat of Zannah's is stalemating a bloodlusted Darth Bane twice and for Shaak Ti soloing an army of Magnaguards, whose skill levels are so inconsistent it's kind of ridiculous. Honestly, between that and Zannah's using the defensive style Soresu, I'd actually favor Zannah in a duel, but not by a large margin.

So in the end, between slightly superior saber skill and her Sith Sorcery (considered by Darth Plagueis to be some of the best there ever was) I see Zannah ultimately prevailing. Shaak Ti, cool as she is is simply not among the better duelists or Force users of the RoE Jedi Order.

Kit Fisto Vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

This is a very close one, in fact I'd say it's the closest fight out of all of these. Dueling-wise, the two have both done well against Grievous, though in both cases they had their specific lightsaber forms (Shii-Cho and Soresu respectively) giving them an edge (in fact, Obi-Wan was sent after Grievous precisely because his Soresu would be a good counter to GG’s insane attacks).

Outside of that, the two have also both fought Ventress before. But whereas Kit has never defeated Ventress to my knowledge, Obi-Wan has beaten her, though at the same time he has also lost to her before, and stalemated her other times, which basically means they’re about even. Kit for his part lost to Ventress, but his Shii-Cho is ill-suited to Makashki, which did give Ventress an edge that she would not have had against Obi-Wan. Ultimately, looking at their saber skills, I’d say there’s little if any disparity to be had, though since Kit’s form is less useful against a single opponent with a single lightsaber blade, he is at a bit of a disadvantage, and therefore I might favor Obi-Wan in terms of who is the superior duelist.

In terms of the Force, Obi-Wan's power levels that I am most familiar with are Obi-Wan c. End of Clone Wars to Revenge of the Sith. At this point in time Obi-Wan has moved Durge's ship and used lightsaber throw. To compare Kit Fisto has lifted and moved a massive cylindrical tank and helped Plo Koon shield themselves and clone troopers from an avalanche. So looking at that I'd say their TK is about even to very slight edge in favor of Obi-Wan.

Physically, Kit has run in a blur, deflected blaster bolts, shaped fans out of his lightsaber blows, and moved fast enough to astound Obi-Wan with his speed. As for Obi-Wan himself, he has run in a blur, moved his lightsaber fast enough to create a shield out of the movements of his blade, and flown straight at Anakin while their ships moved at sublight speeds and yet reacted fast enough to veer away from one another. Obi-Wan has also deflected blaster fire from entire armies at once (to be fair though, he did utilize the terrain for cover also). Once again, I'd say it's close, as the two have accomplished many of the same speed feats (such as both running in a blur and making fans out of the movements of their lightsabers). And yet once again I'd say Obi-Wan is the superior by the slimmest of margins on the account of his reaction feat that Kit to my knowledge has not matched. Though at the same time Kit's speed has astounded Obi-Wan...

All in all, this will likely end in a stalemate, but if I had to pick a single winner, I'd go with Obi-Wan simply because while he is only marginally better than Kit in pretty much all arenas that still means he is better, if again, only by a slim margin. So therefore I judge this to be either a perfect split or slim majority for Obi-Wan.

Exar Kun Vs. Starkiller

Ah yes, these two. Exar Kun and Starkiller are two excellent examples of Star Wars characters who everyone THINKS are good but in fact really aren't anywhere close to top-tier.

In saber dueling at least there is no contest. Exar Kun has actually defeated opponents in a lightsaber duel by virtue of being better, which is something Starkiller has NEVER done in the Canon Novel (the video game is largely N-Canon, including the alternate ending). Starkiller was losing to Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus, and especially Shaak Ti and Maris Brood. He did not beat a single one of them by virtue of being a better duelist, and even worse, none of them have any feats except for Shaak, who is little better. Granted, no one Kun beat has any feats either, but at least he actually won. Kun was also able to produce after-images from the movements of his lightsaber, which to my knowledge Starkiller has never done. And no, he did not defeat Darth Vader in a lightsaber duel either, rather he bested him via the Force. Before that he held his own against him courtesy of being intimately familiar with his master's unique fighting style. But he did not beat him in a duel and frankly his victory as was is pretty much PIS/CIS.

Now in terms of the Force both of them are frankly rather pathetic. Contrary to popular belief Starkiller did not bring down a Star Destroyer. What he did accomplish was redirect a Star Destroyer that was already falling. And moving this Star Destroyer just a small amount took everything he had and he fainted from exertion afterwards. This does nothing to prove Galen's strength in the Force and in fact actually shows how weak he is more than it does his "strength". And no, he didn't beat Palpatine either. The novel makes it clear that Palpatine allowed Galen to win in the hopes of goading him to the Dark Side as he had Anakin. Having said that Starkiller was able to hold Palpatine's lightning at bay for a time with his bare hands, which is a good feat, especially since RotJ Luke was only able to do that for a short time before being overwhelmed (though it is worth mentioning of course that Galen would have ultimately been overwhelmed too had he not chosen to sacrifice himself).

Having said all of that, Kun's own Force feats are pretty pitiful, especially considering that his Force strength was supposedly being enhanced by a Sith Amulet the entire time. His Force Blast when not enhanced by his Massassi Temple's DS energy was not able to kill a featless individual, and his other Force feats are little better, and to my knowledge he could not ever kill anyone with his Force powers. While Starkiller's feats are nowhere near as good as the title of his story would lead you to believe, he has at least caused far more damage with his Force powers, so I would put him above Kun in this arena, but honestly not by much. Kun can keep up with him here.

Speed-wise, Starkiller is decent, but not the best. Kun was, again able to create after-images from the movements of his lightsaber, so he has that to his name. Neither one has any noteworthy strength feats that I can recall. Ultimately, this could go either way, but I still favor Kun simply because Galen is so abysmal in saber dueling and while he is better in Force ability, Kun can at least keep up with him to a degree. He can also match him in physical arenas.

Qui-Gon Vs. Ben Kenobi

Giving it to old Ben here. His dueling skill may have deteriorated by this point in time due to age and lack of practice, but he was still good enough to fight evenly with Vader, who though not yet in his prime (which was c. RotJ) had still stalemated/defeated an amped TPM Darth Maul...who had killed Qui-Gon when NOT amped. With that bit of ABC logic in mind, I see Ben still being the superior swordsman by a fair margin, not to mention that his excellent defensive skills (Soresu is a defensive form) could allow him to hold firm while Qui-Gon tires himself out due to using a much more physically taxing form (and indeed Qui-Gon is much more prone to fatigue as of TPM).

Force-wise neither one has too many feats to their name that I can recall, and I don't see either one having much to give them any kind of edge over one another, though I do think that Qui-Gon may still take it here.

Speed-wise they're about even, as Ben's being able to hold his own against Vader can match any of Qui-Gon's speed feats. That said, I still feel Obi-Wan ultimately takes this just by virtue of being a better swordsman and being able to outlast Qui-Gon. Beyond that though I have to admit that the two mavericks seem evenly matched in most other respects. Of course given that Qui-Gon's kind of based off of ANH Obi-Wan I suppose that's kind of fitting.

Darth Vader Vs. Plo Koon

This one's a pretty solid win for Vader. For one there's superior dueling feats. Plo's only showing here is doing a decent job against Ventress while having a broken arm, but Vader has stalemated duelists of comparable to greater skill (Amped TPM Darth Maul, ANH Obi-Wan and RotJ Luke). Plo simply hasn't done anything to compare to these showings and in fact lost to Savage Opress. Furthermore, Plo does not have the physical strength to match Vader either, as the Sith Lord's strength showings are far better. And given that Savage beat Plo because he was stronger than him and thus ripped off his breather mask, that doesn't portend favorably to Plo in a fight against another physically stronger opponent.

Speed and TK are more comparable, but the latter still goes to Vader, whose best known feat (destroying a cathedral) surpasses Plo's best feat (collapsing a cave). In all there's just not much else to say about this one. Vader wins by virtue of surpassing Plo in just about everything of note.

And that's all of the fights I saw him post that I feel I can effectively answer. I may do more later if he ever posts more fight ideas. In the meantime I hope you enjoyed my analysis of the various duels.


Did the CG Clone Wars show really make General Grievous weaker?

This is a truly, truly heated topic, and one that I got tired of debating again and again on the Battle Forums, to the point that I now straight up refuse to use Grievous in a battle ever again.

I am of the opinion that the CG Clone Wars show did not make General Grievous “weaker”, but nobody else has ever agreed with me. However at the same time, no one ever bothered to give me much of an argument for why. So I decided to take matters into my own hands and explain why I personally do not believe that the CG Clone Wars show made Grievous “weaker”. Now I understand if people still don’t agree with me, but at least see what I have to say.

Let’s start with General Grievous’ big feat in the original CW show, which was his duel with five Jedi on Hypori:

Now, a common misconception is that GG defeated five Jedi Masters here. He did not. The only two masters here were Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti. K’kruk, Aayala Secura, and Tarr Seirr were Jedi Knights, not Masters. And in any event, rank means less than actual feats. AotC Anakin is a better lightsaber duelist than Mundi and Shaak because he did better against Count Dooku (who has trained and beaten Grievous) than Mundi and Shaak did against the not so good general (Anakin’s pressing Dooku was stated in both Most Precious Weapon and the Attack of the Clones novelization.) And yet in spite of not being a master, Anakin is already their better.

And the thing is, none of these Jedi Grievous bested are terribly impressive. Tarr Seirr is as featless and bottom-tier as you can get, and the other four’s lightsaber feats are few and far between. Aayala’s best feat would be beating Aurra Sing, and Shaak Ti’s single-handedly facing down an army of Magnaguards. But beyond that, the Jedi GG beat on Hypori have few showings other than their collective loss here.

Finally, it is worth noting that GG’s entire showing on Hypori has been judged by Silver (a leading SW expert on this site) to be inconsistent with his other showings, which hurts the credibility of the “he got weaker” argument even more, since the piece of evidence that is always used is not even consistent with his actual showings. But let’s just assume for one moment that the showing is valid, even though it is not. It still fails to prove anything for reasons that will be described below. First though, let's look at GG's track-record with Asajj Ventress. Now, pre-CG Grievous beat Ventress (alas, I have no scans to show). In the CG clone wars show on the other hand, Grievous lost to Ventress on Dathomir:

Most people use this as proof that Grievous got weaker. But there’s a counterargument to be made. Namely that Ventress got better.

Think of it this way: Ventress lost to what was for all intents and purposes AotC Anakin. Barely, yes, but she still lost to him all the same:

And yet later in the Clone Wars she was able to repeatedly keep up with a better version of Anakin, as well as Obi-Wan.

How then can we say Ventress didn’t get better? She’s fighting against a better version of Anakin than the one she lost to on Yavin. If her skill levels had remained static then Anakin would have never struggled with her in any of his post-Knighting encounters and just beaten her more and more easily. Granted, Anakin post-Knighting did beat Ventress several times, but Ventress was usually able to keep up with him all the same and in one of their duels in the comics gave Anakin the scar he had up until his immolation on Mustafar:

The version of Ventress Grievous beat was the same as the one who lost to Anakin on Yavin. The one he lost to has lost to a better version of Anakin and stalemated him other times. Why do we automatically assume Grievous got weaker when instead we can say that his opponent got better? Besides that there is also the fact that the duel Grievous lost took place on Dathomir, a planet strong in the Dark Side. Ventress could have easily been drawing on the planet's Dark Side energy to improve her own performance, though this at least is more speculative.

But either way from where I’m standing there is no inconsistency here. Grievous beat a version of Ventress inferior to the one he lost to later.

Now for Kit Fisto. He dueled with Grievous once in the CG Clone Wars show, yet Grievous has also dueled with Mace Windu. Now because Mace is better than Kit, people jump on this and say that it proves Grievous got weaker. But let’s first look at the fight between Kit and Grievous...

Kit definitely does well here, but he did not “beat” Grievous. He disarmed him of one of his sabers true, but Grievous had three more to spare. Kit knocked Grievous down, but he just got back up and kept fighting. How does that constitute a win for Kit?

Furthermore, Kit Fisto is not exponentially below Mace Windu, only marginally. Kit was struggling against Ventress, but so was Windu. He was able to drive Ventress off, but only barely. So he’s better, but not by a huge margin.

And one last point: Shii-Cho is particularly potent against both multiple lightsaber blades and multiple opponents. Grievous had four lightsabers, and then three when Kit disarmed him of one. Either way though, its multiple lightsaber blades, which gave Kit an edge. So considering this, and the fact that he did not in fact beat Grievous whereas Mace did (albeit via a BFR), I see no great inconsistency in skill here. He fought evenly with Grievous due to his form giving him an advantage and also how he’s only marginally below Mace anyway. And for completeness’ sake, here’s Mace’s fight with Grievous:

Kit's bulging black eyes indicated Palpatine. "They want to take him alive."

The words had scarcely left his mouth when something hit the train with sufficient force to whip everyone from one side of the car to the other, then back again. The Red Guards were just regaining their balance when the roof began to resound with the cadence of heavy, clanging footfalls, advancing from the rear of the train.

"Grievous," Mace grumbled.

Kit glanced at him. "Here we go again."

Hurrying into the vestibule between the two lead cars, they launched themselves to the roof. Three cars distant marched General Grievous and two of his elite droids, their capes snapping behind them in the wind, pulse-tipped batons angled across their barrel chests. Farther back, clamped by animal-like claws to the roof of the train, was the gunboat from which the frightful trio had been released.

Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.

Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...

The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.

The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary.

Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos. Clearly, Grievous—onetime courageous commander of sentient troops—realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous—current commander of droids and other war machines—wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades.

Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed. Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep.

Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself?

Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out. One hundred meters away, the gunboat retracted its landing gear and rose from the roof on repulsorlift power. Reckless shots from one of the pursuing gunships obliged the Separatist craft to skew, then dive, with the gunship following close behind.

-Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

Now that we’ve gone through these different character showings, let’s compare: Kit has fought evenly with Grievous and is one of the best lightsaber duelists in the order. Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi-Mundi both lost badly to Grievous and while all three have few other showings besides their fights with Grievous and his Magnaguards, Shaak herself has more or less acknowledged that Kit Fisto is her superior:

Shaak Ti felt him coming before she could see him. The infra-and ultrasound-sensitive cavities in the tall, curving montrals to either side of her head gave her a sense analogous to touch: the texture of his approaching footsteps was ragged as old sacking. As he rounded the corner to the landing deck door, his breathing felt like a pile of gravel and his heartbeat was spiking like a Zabrak's head. He didn't look good, either; he was deathly pale, even for a human, and his eyes were raw.

"Anakin," she said warmly. Perhaps a friendly word was what he needed; she doubted he'd gotten many from Mace Windu. "Thank you for what you have done. The Jedi Order is in your debt—the whole galaxy, as well."

"Shaak Ti. Get out of my way."

Shaky as he looked, there was nothing unsteady in his voice: it was deeper than she remembered, more mature, and it carried undertones of authority that she had never heard before. And she was not blind to the fact he had neglected to call her Master.

She put forth a hand, offering calming energies through the Force. "The Temple is sealed, Anakin. The door is code-locked."

"And you're in the way of the pad."

She stepped aside, allowing him to the pad; she had no reason to keep him here against his will. He punched the code hungrily. "If Palpatine retaliates," she said reasonably, "is not your place here, to help with our defense?"

"I'm the chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—"

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

-Taken from Revenge of the Sith.

Mundi didn’t really do much better against Grievous than Shaak Ti did, so I have no reason to believe that Kit is not superior to him as well, and in fact after posting a battle between the two on this very site, the universal consensus was that Kit would indeed beat Mundi. And again, why does one showing where Grievous did less well prove he got weaker? This is like saying because Maul can’t definitively beat Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel during the Clone Wars (as he did not defeat him in a saber duel on either Maul's ship or Florum) but beat him in TPM it means Maul got weaker. But CW Obi-Wan is better than TPM Obi-Wan the same way Kit is better than Shaak Ti and Ki-Adi-Mundi and the Ventress Grievous fought on Dathomir is better than the one he fought previously.

So I see no inconsistency here. Kit Fisto is better than the Jedi Grievous beat on Hypori. And given that a fight against those same Jedi on Hypori would mean both multiple lightsaber blades and multiple opponents, no, I do not find it unreasonable to believe that Kit could beat those Jedi on Hypori almost as soundly as Grievous did.

Granted, as Mace is above Ventress, there is a seeming inconsistency there. However it should be noted that Mace fought Grievous on Coruscant near the tail-end of the Clone Wars. That is chronologically AFTER the CG Clone Wars show, suggesting less that Grievous got “weaker” in the CG Clone Wars show but rather got BETTER by the time he fought Mace on Coruscant. Again, one happens after the other.

And now with all of that out of the way we come to the elephant in the room. Ahsoka Tano. Grievous has fought the polarizing padawan twice now, and once again people use this as proof that Grievous got weaker. It doesn’t work. To start, let’s look at GG’s fight with Ahsoka in Season 1:

Ahsoka got stomped in mere seconds, with GG knocking her back and temporarily knocking her out. She recovers in time to save Captain Rex and then duels him again. They fight evenly. Ahsoka is not beating him and then retreats. What follows isn’t even a duel. How does any of this translate to Ahsoka beating Grievous? It does not, and in fact in the opening parts of the duel he beat her as swiftly as he did K’kruhk. Yes, Ahsoka disarmed him...when he was distracted. Before that GG had her dead to rights. So that proves nothing as far as saying Ahsoka beat Grievous. She did not. And in fact, I could say that her choosing to retreat and then play hide-and-seek was a silent acknowledgement that she couldn’t beat him in a saber duel. If she could, why did she run? Especially considering that Ahsoka, especially at this stage, is cocky, aggressive, belligerent, and relishes fighting. And yet for all of that she ran from Grievous. Hmmm…

Also, is Ahsoka’s disarming someone who had her dead to rights makes her better, than by that logic Obi-Wan beating Maul via a lucky blow when Maul had him dead to rights on Naboo proves Obi-Wan’s superiority when in fact it does not.

Now let’s look at round 2.

Once again, Ahsoka does not beat Grievous. She holds her own, true, but there are several points where she’s clearly struggling against him, such as when Grievous broke the saber lock and downed Ahsoka pretty brutally. And though she did recover from this, she was still unable to beat, disarm, or even overwhelm Grievous and was ultimately forced to retreat. I don’t see how this makes Ahsoka GG’s better.

Now granted, Ahsoka did better against Grievous on Florum than Shaak Ti did on Hypori or Coruscant, but I fail to see how this proves Grievous got weaker. Ahsoka is just better than Shaak. The only reason people can’t accept that is because people hate Ahsoka. But I’m afraid that feelings on a character are irrelevant when discussing feats and power levels. To give an example of that I hate the story Dark Empire but that does absolutely nothing to undermine Palpatine’s excellent showings in that comic or for that matter Luke Skywalkers. When discussing who wins we need to put personal hatreds aside. Ahsoka is better than Shaak Ti based on objective feats. She also, when fighting alongside Luminara, stalemated Asajj Ventress, and this was very shortly after her first fight with Grievous (You'll want to skip ahead to near the end of the video, as most of it is Luminara by herself against Ventress)

So no, those fights with Ahsoka do not prove that Grievous got weaker, because neither one suggests that he would be incapable of besting her. She ran both times and was getting overwhelmed in their second duel. In the one before that she got temporarily knocked out in seconds. How is he incapable of besting her? Granted, I do wonder why on Florum he didn’t do to Ahsoka what he did to Tarr Seirr, since he had her head in his foot, but I’d chalk that up more to PIS or CIS than Grievous getting weaker.

CG Clone Wars’ Grievous’ only other fights are against Eeth Koth and a Gungan Army (yes you read that correctly). Let’s look at the first one:

Now while it’s true that Eeth Koth lost due to the Magnaguard’s intervention, before that he was not winning. He was fighting evenly with Grievous. He knocked him back true, but then GG just got back up and kept fighting. Grievous did not lose to Eeth Koth, nor was Eeth Koth overwhelming him. They were fighting evenly. Eeth Koth has no feats besides this, but is this not a good feat for him? Why is it proof that Grievous got weaker and not instead proof that Eeth Koth is better than the Jedi Grievous beat on Hypori? Admittedly this is more a matter of opinion and definition, but it is still worth mentioning. And again, the whole thing becomes moot anyway given that Grievous’ Hypori showing is inconsistent with his other pre-CG Clone Wars showings, but...

Now one area where I will say Grievous did noticeably get weaker was in his ability to fight off multiple opponents at once. As we saw with his duel on Hypori, he did quite well against five Jedi simultaneously. Other pre-CG Clone Wars showings have him doing well against large numbers of opponents also, but usually more clones or other blaster-toting foes.

By contrast, in the CG Clone Wars show he struggled more against Gungans.

This is yet one more encounter that people use to “prove” that Grievous got weaker. But let’s consider a few things. First off, GG beat all of the Gungans that attacked him, including Captain Tarpals. The Gungans dogpiled him at the end after Grievous was stabbed and electrocuted (which was shown to short-circuit him) after being distracted by his own gloating. This is the same as when Obi-Wan bested Maul in TPM even though Maul had him dead to rights in that the victor won via a lucky blow and an opportunity to land it that was presented to them as a result of the winner’s own stupidity. Those Gungans did not beat Grievous by virtue of being more skilled, rather they beat him when Tarpals electrocuted Grievous while he was distracted and then dog-piled him when he’d been weakened and disarmed. Having said all that, Grievous is indeed still struggling more here than he did against the Jedi on Hypori and that is sufficient to show that his ability to fight off multiple opponents at once got worse, but by the same token I wouldn’t say its by that large a margin. Again, Grievous beat all of the Gungans that attacked him, including Captain Tarpals, and his Hypori showing is inconsistent anyway.

Concerning speed, Grievous is notably less impressive here than in the original CW show, but that is also true of everyone in the CG Clone Wars show due to its having a very different animation style than the original and also not wanting to have the same over-the-top theatrics that the original show had. Anakin and Ventress are also less fast and flashy in the new Clone Wars show, that doesn’t mean they got weaker or even slower. Vader doesn’t move faster than thought or produce afterimages of his blade in the movies but that’s because its a human actor in a live action movie, where you simply can’t do the same things you can do in animation or a comic. It doesn’t change the fact that Vader can canonically move faster than thought.

Having gone through all of this I think my opinion on this is obvious. Grievous did not become less skilled in the CG Clone Wars show for all of the reasons I have listed above. He is inferior to the version of Ventress that bested him on Dathomir (obviously) but superior to the version that fought Anakin on Yavin (who at the time was less skilled than when Ventress fought him later on). He was struggling against (but did not lose to) a Jedi Master who is a highly reputed swordsman and also possessed the advantage of Shii-Cho. Now granted there is a disparity in skill between losing to Ventress but then fighting evenly with Mace, but given that the latter happened after the former, I see no reason to not just assume that Grievous as of LoE was simply better than he had been during the events prior to that, which by the way includes both the CG show AND his battle on Hypori, which, as I’ve now stressed several times but will again, is not even consistent with his other pre-CG Clone Wars showings.

Now again, if people disagree with me, that's fine. But if so do give some kind of counterargument supported by evidence. Merely saying I'm wrong, stupid, an idiot, or some other demeaning claim will tell me nothing. As it stands, this is my view on the matter for now, but that could change if I am presented with a worthwhile counterargument.


DC Reboot-The Time has come

OK.  With the summer having reached its close and DC's reboot kicking in, I guess I'll be deciding which titles I'm definitely going to be checking out, the ones I won't, and finally, the maybes.
Let's start with the "Justice League" Titles...
Justice League: A part of me just really does not want to see the Justice League's origins AGAIN, but, it is Geoff Johns, one of my top 3 DC writers, and Jim Lee, my favorite comic book artist of all, and not to mention its more or less required reading for the DCnU, so...I'll be looking into it.  I can probably stomach whatever changes Johns sees fit to give the JLA's backstories.  DC sure lied through their teeth about a more diverse DCU though.   Verdict: Yes
Justice League International: My hopes for this one are not as high considering how, 1: this book does not seem to be trying to capitalize off Justice League Generation Lost at all (where's Captain Atom and Blue Beetle?) and 2: None of the redesigns are really doing much for me.  I mean in the case of Booster Gold and Vixens, they're OK, but the outfits they had previously were fine.  So it seems unnecessary to me.  Still, I want to like this book, I do, so I'll see what other people think.  Verdict: Maybe
Aquaman: Oh yeah.  Again, Geoff Johns.  Not to mention Ivan Reis, who is rapidly becoming my second favorite comic book artist of all time.  That and how these two have already worked on Aquaman together in Brightest Day, and his was the strongest of the Brightest Day stories.  Admittedly, the "Trench" don't sound like the most impressive of villains, but Johns has earned my trust, so we'll see.  I hope we'll see more of the new Aqualad too.  Verdict: Yes
Wonder Woman: I like JMS when it comes to Spider-Man and Thor, but his turn with Wonder Woman was a disaster.  This has nothing to do with the costume either.  It was just such a convoluted mess and it didn't help that this Wonder Woman was being forced into other books where she had no place.  Since Diana has not been doing well lately, I definitely hope that the reboot gets her back to her old glory.  I wouldn't mind seeing a Diana that has more emphasis on the pragmatic warrior and less of the super-loving and compassionate person, but by this point, I'll take what I can get.  Verdict: Yes
The Flash: Unfortunately while I like Barry, he just isn't interesting enough to carry his own series.  At least that's just from what I've seen and heard.  I gotta say its pretty pathetic what they've done to Wally West these last few years, first sweeping him under the rug and then Didio blatantly admitting that Wally won't have a place in the DCnU.  Sad.  Verdict: No
Fury of Firestorm: And now we come the second of my three favorite DC writers: Gail Simone!  I love Gail's work, and Fury of Firestorm looks like it could be something interesting.  Hopefully Gail will treat Jason Rusch better then Brightest Day and Flashpoint did.  Not much else to say.  Verdict: Yes
Captain Atom: I'm sorry, but that flaming hair is just ridiculous.  The cover art looks quite awesome beyond that, and I do like Captain Atom...I'll will myself to like this, but only if I hear that its good.  Too bad they couldn't get Greg Weisman to write Captain Atom again... Verdict: Maybe
Green Arrow: OK, so J.T. Krul's Brightest Day run on Green Arrow was terrible, but that's more Brightest Day's fault.  I'm willing to give Krul a second chance, especially since the idea of a more "Punisher-esque" Green Arrow could be good...its just that those covers for issues 2 and 3 are pretty painful to look at.  Verdict: Maybe
Savage Hawkman: Hawkman's not my favorite, and I don't think I'd be able to invest myself in an ongoing series for him.  And then there's the fact that Tony Daniel is writing it.  Verdict: No
DC Universe Presents: I simply don't have any interest in this.  Even with Deadman in it.  Moving along.  Verdict: No
Mr. Terrific: I do like Mr. Terrific, but that new white costume of his is lame.  I miss his old look.  The premise sounds OK, and it would be interesting to see how Mr. Terrific fares as a solo hero, but...I just don't know.  I might give it a look.  Verdict: Maybe
Well, that's all the Justice League titles.  Current Score: Yes: 4 Maybe: 4 No: 3.  Pretty Evened out so far.
On to the Superman titles.  Well, if there is any one justification for the DC reboot, I'd say the Superman franchise is it. It has been an awful mess for the last year or so at least.  What with Grounded, Reign of Doomsday, and a few other stories I could otherwise mention.  I'm really, really hoping that at least Action Comics is worth something again.  Its Grant Morrison, and he's a wild card as far as I'm concerned.  It could be awesome, or it could be another one of his "failed experiments"  Between the fact that Superman is having a terrible casual redesign of his classic look, he and Lois's marriage is being undone (sigh, do any couples ever stay together in comics?) and the fact that this could easily just be Grant trying to repeat his success with All Star Superman, its hard not to expect the latter. Still, I'm playing the optimist here.  Superman has to be cool again...he just has to.
Verdict: Yes
Superman: This seems to be another case of DC having an artist be a writer, and we all know how well that's worked with Tony Daniel and Scott Kollins.  Still, its hard to say how this might go besides that, and again, Superman is in dire need of some good stories, so I'll think about this one.  Verdict: Maybe
Supergirl: With that outfit?  Sigh.  And she'd been doing so well lately too...Verdict: No
Superboy: Unfortunately that art just does not look appealing, and the premise doesn't sound too good either.  That and I'm just not sure a Superboy series is for me.  Verdict: No
OK, before we move on to the Batman stuff, lets bring up the score again: Yes: 5 Maybe: 5 No: 5.  Wow!  Now its completely evened out.
And now to Batman.  Well, Batman is being written by Scott Snyder, who has really proven himself lately as a fantastic Batman writer.  And he's writing Batman's book. And there's going to be a villain who looks like Owlman, who I'm a fan of.  Yeah, this one's a no-brainer.  Verdict: Yes
Unfortunately though, Detective Comics gets Tony Daniel, which is a really poor choice for relaunching the original Batman title.  This would have been a yes if it had been anyone else, but alas...Verdict: No
Batman, the Dark Knight: I was going to give this a look because of David Finch, a rare example of an artist being turned into a writer who isn't completely terrible, but now that they're replacing him with a writer who really IS interest has disappeared  Verdict: No 
Batman and Robin: Father and son as a dynamic duo together is interesting, and a good premise, but, the solicitations make it sound almost like Jason Todd robin all over again.  And now I quote: "...Batman’s fears about Robin’s tendency to dish out more pain than necessary are growing!" Sound familiar?  Verdict: Maybe
Batwoman: I think a lot of people have been looking forward to this one.  And it's been in the works for a while now too.  I'll definitely be looking at this myself, though it is a bit disappointing that Kathy is going to be seeing someone other then Renee...Verdict: Yes
Batgirl: I don't get it.  I love Gail Simone, and the art looks amazing.  So why am I flatly refusing to read this book?  Oh right, I do know: Barbara as Batgirl again is stupid.  There is no justification for it.  DiDio claims its for accessibility, but if that were the case, Damien would not be Robin, and Flash would not be Barry.  Robin and Flash would be Dick Grayson and Wally West.  So that's a lie.  No, its because DiDio is likes Barbara the best as Batgirl.  Ugh.  Barbara is going from where she was at her most interesting to a time when she was one of the dullest of heroines.  Honestly, I can not think of a single story of her as Batgirl outside of Batgirl: Year One that interests me.  Cassandra Cain is the best Batgirl, with Stephanie as an instant second.  Barbara as Batgirl is not interesting, and unless Gail Simone does something really good (which she just might) I'm not touching this one.  Verdict: No
Batwing: Now this is the complete opposite.  More then even Batman, this is the one DC title I will definitely be buying.  For one, its Judd Winick, the final of my top three DC writers, (the others being Johns and Gail), who has done some of his best work with Batman and his supporting cast (like say, Jason Todd).  Second, its one of the more interesting characters to come out of Batman Inc.  This character is finally getting development.  Between all of these things, its a must.  Here's hoping we get an issue of Batwing kicking Quaddif's ass.  Verdict: Yes
Nightwing: Where to begin?  Where to begin...?  First of all, Nightwing's new look is awesome, but completely unnecessary.  Nightwing's black and blue was a perfect costume.  It did not need changing.  And honestly, the new look makes him look like a villain.  What with the red pupil-less eyes and stuff.  If this was an outfit for a "Nega-Nightwing" or what have you, then it would make perfect sense.  But this is Dick Grayson.  This outfit is not necessary for him.  And then there's the fact that one of his enemies has Wolverine claws.  And yet, the premise is good, and I do love Dick Grayson, so I haven't completely sworn this one off yet. Verdict: Maybe
Catwoman: As I said previously, Judd Winick is one of my favorites, and the art looks fine.  But seeing Catwoman be catapulted back to square one is just a little disappointing.  I get that that's the whole point of the reboot, but I always liked Catwoman better as an anti-hero then as a villain.  She is fun as that too, and I trust Judd to do something good.  I'll be reading this, and I will likely be enjoying it, its just that its not quite the Catwoman I would have wanted you know?  Ah well.  Lets just hope her becoming a hero again doesn't take 60 years this time.  Verdict: Yes
Red Hood and the Outlaws: I really, really, want this to be good. hopes are not high.  One, no non-Judd Winick writer has been able to do anything good with Jason Todd since Judd brought him back.  Two: The risk of JasonxStarfire, and three: Roy's hat.  You know, Jason falling in with two other people and the three of them having to work together was already explored in Countdown to Final Crisis, and honestly, theirs was a much more interesting premise.  And Kyle and Donna were a better two characters to pair Jason with.  And they completely mishandled it.  Now we're trying again, with a weaker premise and two supporting characters who are not the best choices in the world.  And then there's the hat.  And spite of all of that, I'm checking this book out anyway.  Yeah, I'm that desperate for a Red Hood series.  I'm just gonna have to keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.  Verdict: Yes
Birds of Prey: I'm not looking at this one because it is not the Birds of Prey.  Oh yeah, that's the title but it ain't the Birds of Prey.  Not when the only members on the team that I am even remotely familiar with are not bird-themed at all.  Thus, they are not the Birds of Prey.  No Barbara, no Huntress, no Black Canary, no BoP.  Its as simple as that.  
Verdict: No
Phew!  That's all the Batman titles.  Lets see the current score now: Yes: 10 Maybe: 7 No: 9.  Wow, the "Yes" has doubled.  
On to Green Lantern!
Green Lantern: This is the same book Johns has been writing for years now.  Sinestro has always been the real star of John's run.  Him being a Green Lantern in place of Hal does not change a thing.  Verdict: Yes
Green Lantern Corps: Between Guy being the star, and Peter Tomasi writing it, this just seems like the same as "Green Lantern: Emerald Warriors" which I didn't care for.  I'm going to have to call this one a pass, unless Pete Tomasi really steps up his game.  I haven't ruled that out.  Verdict: Maybe
Green Lantern New Guardians: And this just seems more like Tony Bedard's run on GLC.  Anyone but me notice a pattern?  These GL titles really aren't changing much.  I've enjoyed Tony Bedard's work, and I do like Kyle Rayner and the New Guardians, so this is another no-brainer.  Verdict: Yes
Red Lanterns: I love the Red Lanterns.  Atrocittus is one of the most interesting (if not the most interesting) of all of the new characters Geoff Johns has introduced into the Green Lantern mythos.  Those covers are pretty messed up though.  Hope this doesn't get too gore-porn.  I really want this to be good.  Verdict: Yes
Well, that was quick.  Yes: 13 Maybe: 8 No: 9 I think I'll save the Dark and Edge stuff for last and go straight to the Young Justice offerings...  
Teen Titans: You know, i actually don't mind Red Robin's redesign.  Kind of reminds me of Batman Beyond's look.  Kid Flash's isn't terrible either.  But the other outfits, Superboy and Wonder Girl's especially, are truly awful.  I'm not going to be looking at this one anytime soon.  Shame.  Teen Titans was doing so well...Verdict: No
Static Shock: The brainchild of the late and great Dwayne McDuffie.  He probably should have gotten his own series sooner.  They had better do this one right.  Verdict: Yes
Hawk and Dove: The only reason I'm checking this one out is to see what they do with Dove and Deadman's relationship, one of the only interesting things that happened to Boston in Brightest Day.  If they don't do anything interesting with what could be a potentially good, tragic romance, then I'll be dropping this one quickly.  Verdict: Yes...for now
Blue Beetle: Everyone loves Jamie.  I do too.  And I like Tony Bedard as I mentioned earlier.  This one's obvious.  Verdict: Yes
Legion Lost and LoSH: I'm grouping these two together because I already know the answer to both: No.  I don't like the LoSH.  They simply have never really done anything for me beyond their appearances in Superman: TAS and JLU.  Verdict: No for both
OK, one last check before we finish up with The Dark and the Edge: Yes: 16 Maybe: 8 No: 12
And finally, we come to The Dark and The Edge.  Now, I have to admit, most of these are just not my thing, and I'm writing them off simply because of that.  So I think I'll just mention the ones that do interest me:
Justice League Dark: This looks like an interesting group, and I wouldn't mind the idea of a Justice League meant to deal with supernatural threats.  I am disappointed that they gave Zatanna a much more boring outfit then the outfit she had in her ongoing series, but the art itself looks pretty good, and I do like Deadman and Zatanna, so,  I'll give this a look.  Verdict: Yes
Demon Knights: I like Etrigan, and I'm also a history nut who happens to know a thing or two about the Dark Ages, so done right, this could be a real winner for me.  Or they could give me a completely boring and generic fictional take on the Dark Ages. I'm hoping its the former.  Verdict: Yes
Stormwatch: I have never been into Wildstorm Comics before, so this will be something new for me.  And I do like Martian Manhunter.  They may mishandle the integration of Wildstorm into mainstream DC, and Apollo and Midnighter don't look as cool as they used to (I haven't read their stories but I have seen their actual costumes and they're way more impressive!) but if DC is serious about this, they might just make it work.  If nothing else, I'm curious to see how Stormwatch and the Justice League will interact with one another. Verdict: Maybe
Grifter: The guy with Deadpool mask!  Well, I'm all for DC having its own Deadpool, and I'm curious to see what they do with Grifter.  I know absolutely nothing about the character though, so I won't be able to tell how badly or severely DC is changing him.  And that in of itself may hurt my ability to review it...ah well.  I'll still give it a try.  Verdict: Maybe
All-Star Western: I like Jonah Hex, and he's definitely in dire need of something good after that s***t-stain of a movie, so I'm really hoping that this will be good.  It does have a very interesting premise, and so long as they don't write it like the movie, it should be fine.  Verdict: Yes
Blackhawks: I chose not to look at Men of War because it seemed too "Call of Duty" to me.  This, on the other hand, intrigues me.  Definitely an interesting re-imagining of the Blackhawks, but in making them some hi-tech soldiers instead of pilots, DC does run the risk of stripping them of their distinctive qualities. So there is that.  It still might make for some good mindless fun though.  Verdict: Maybe
And that's everything!  Praise to anyone who actually stuck with me this long!  Lets see what the final tally is:
Yes: 19
No: 22 
Maybe: 11
Well, that evens out nicely!  And obviously this list is subject to change.  I'm not ruling out the possibility that some of my "Yeses" and "Maybes" might disappoint me and become "Nos" or even a few of the "Nos" defying my low expectations, but for now at least, here's where I stand on the DCnU's new 52.