ShootingNova's forum posts

#1 Posted by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Edited by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

So surely she has even better speed feats in other sources?

No, she's just more powerful and a better fighter and a better everything in K2, so I would presume speed works as well.

I'm honestly past caring about inferences for characters. Maul inferrably mastering Ataru, Nihilus inferrably being good at Force augmentation, ect, ect. Unless there are sufficient, tanglible, feats, which can be brought to the table, I'm not interested.

You don't need to be "good" at Force augmentation. It just works. There's no "being good" at it. Vitiate hardly ever fights, and in his first fight ever he was wrecking Revan.

Also, ignoring inferences even if they are reasonable is basically you saying that Plagueis would get stomped by Maul in a skill-only contest. Or that Tenebrous loses to TPM Kenobi in a rout in a skill-contest.

And how exactly does this counter my point about Jango being a far better marksman than a featless grunt? Obviously Jango wouldn't be able to keep Kenobi in a permanent state of desperation, and obviously Kenobi wouldn't be able to effortlessly deflect bolts from him all the time. But the fact that they are capable causing each other difficulty is impressive for both parties.

No, it doesn't, because I wasn't responding to that.

Obi-Wan was never in a state of desperation against Jango's blasters.

Collectively it was dozens of blaster bolts, which were coming at her in pairs. It's physically and mentally taxing to deflect pairs of blaster bolts from a master marksman for that long, yet she kept it up. This is better than Meetra deflecting an inferior number from an inferior marksman.

Not really. He fired about four, she deflected two, and then another two, and then he fired another four, and then she deflected another two, and then another two, etc.

Proof?

Proof of what?

No it doesn't. Speed feats translate to speed.

In case you don't know, there is something called Force speed. Physical speed is not the only speed there is.

Nihilus was fighting a party of three beings while kneeling on the floor? Impressive.

lol

Nihilus got back up because Jedi don't execute helpless opponents. He was still weakened anyway.

Not just physical attributes, but also the individual ability to augment Force speed. Maul is better at doing so than Nihilus.

You mean augmenting physical speed. Augmenting Force speed is only done by having power.

Yes, it is a Force power. Meaning it requires active application of technique - something that you can be good or bad at. Maul is good at it, Nihilus isn't good enough with it to react to Maul.

No, it isn't. Proof that you can be "bad" at Force Speed? Again, Vitiate was using Force Speed well on his first try. That, and Force Speed is also passive, and is also determined by power. There's two fronts to it.

It not sounding right doesn't matter, that's how it is.

Actually, it does matter, because we're having this debate right now.

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#3 Edited by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Right. Because being in a cloned body of yourself is the same as going into a body of a completely different build, age, gender ect.

These are replicas of Palpatine's body, aren't they? And not completely different build, age, etc:

You also ignored Vitiate's case, because you knew it went against your claims.

What relevance does this have?

Unless we submit that catching your opponents off-guard is not relevant to a fight, then yes, it is relevant.

You're severely underrating Talzin. Let's see Vader hold up the full might of Sidious' Force Lightning for numerous comic panels. Talzin is exponentially more powerful than Vader.

Talzin held up to Palpatine's Lightning but was still losing, as compared to Yoda, who stalemated Sidious's Lightning until neither of them could control it. And Yoda's power feats are not exponentially greater than Vader's. Vader has collapsed cathedrals whilst injured and decades before his prime, whereas Yoda has manipulated two several-hundred-meter-vessels and pushed them against each other with strain. And Vader is amped here as well.

Talzin is fast approaching Sidious in power, as per her fight with him, which was very even for a long time. In contrast, Sidious has casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, and casually ragdolled Dooku from across the galaxy - Maul and Savage combined being more powerful than Vader, Dooku approaching him in power. Talzin is several tiers more powerful than Vader.

No, it doesn't make her "fast approaching". None of her power showings are approaching, and just because she lasted against Sidious for however long it was (and IIRC, Maul gave her his strength for some of the fight) doesn't make her several tiers above Vader in power. Galen Marek was able to hold back Sidious's Lightning for some time, but that hardly means he was several tiers more powerful than Vader, who has TKed him and even briefly Choked him. Even Luke held back Palpatine's Lightning very briefly before being overwhelmed, and he didn't even compare to Vader at this point, let alone a considerably amped Vader.

But they do.

You mean because you want them to and because you ignored context? Only in that case, yes, they do.

That he is, and he's already fast enough to blitz Talzin beyond her comprehension. By being better than her at augmenting his Force speed.

No, he's not, unless Talzin is caught off-guard.

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#4 Posted by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Processing opponents in under a second, and deflecting blaster, while hindered, still doesn't compare. You're failing to grasp just how much better Maul's feats are. If she was at full capacity.. she what? Would process a few more opponents in under a second? Would be able to deflect a few more blaster bolts?

It does, because Drew Karpyshyn writes Meetra in such a poor light that I have a huge list of complaints. I won't complain here, because that would go off-topic, but the point is just that she wasn't portrayed adequately (or anywhere near adequately), and she still displayed that.

The speed that the nigh-imperceptibly fast droids were throwing strikes would be under half a second, and Maul was seeing them in slow motion while fighting them, casually. So processing speed is certainly not up for grabs.

When did I say anything about Meetra's processing speed being around Maul's level or "up for grabs"? I said she can react.

Meetra has no combative speed to compare to being everywhere at once to a casual-blaster timer.

Yes, she does, from the inferred points I brought up which you didn't respond to.

Meetra deflecting blaster bolts from featless marksmen isn't as good as deflecting blaster bolts from Jango Fett, who is an incredibly capable marksman, capable of giving AotC Kenobi enough pause with his volleys to take a roll out the way, kill numerous Jedi ect. And through his inherited genetics, beings like Connor Freeman and Boba Fett have shot people without even looking casually, disarmed numerous opponents with sequential blaster shots, and more.

Obi-Wan has also deflected blaster fire from Jango effortlessly.

So Komari Vosa deflecting blaster bolts from him...

..is a better demonstration of reactive speed than Meetra has shown. You can argue that all blaster bolts travel at the same speed, but then Jango's were juiced up to the point that he needed a stronger metal alloy for his blasters not to overheat, and, due to the fact he's an accomplished marksman, his shots are harder to react to and defend from, than from, say, a droid. You're right that the Jedi Jango killed were overwhelmed by the quantity of his shots - in addition to his accuracy - but Vosa was targeted by dozens and continued to react to them.

No, it's not. How is that "dozens" of blaster bolts? They kept coming at her in pairs.

Not even superior to Drew Karpyshyn's Meetra, who deflected similar quantities of blaster fire on a dark side nexus, let alone K2 Meetra.

So Vosa has better speed feats than Meetra. Maul speedblitzed her, after being shot in the arm by a blaster at point blank.

Vosa does not have better speed feats than Meetra; not even close.

And again, Meetra is quite powerful in her own right. At least some of that translates to speed.

And if Nihilus' only claim to speed is reacting to two low-level superhumans/peak humans, and one Jedi who is slow enough to be speedblitzed by Maul, and then I fail to see how Maul can't clear 10 feet in under a second and lop his head off.

He was winning against them even after being weakened, and he had to be weakened again before losing.

How was Nihilus weakened?

He tried to Drain Meetra, who is a Wound in the Force, so it was repelled and he exhausted himself. He was kneeling on the floor in exhaustion after that, and then he was still fighting Meetra and the others.

Then he got weakened again when Visas attacked him via their Force Bond or whatever she did, which caused him to be kneeling on the floor again.

Not really. Malgus by comparison of strength feats is stronger than Maul. Strong enough to the point that armor is hardly going to slow him down. And Maul is faster, not based on training, but based on the way he augments his speed.

Strength feats don't stop armor from lowering your speed.

You're failing to grasp that augmenting Force speed isn't solely based on power. It requires power to do it, but it also requires the user to be able to do so himself. Maul has shown that he's capable of augmenting his speed far better than Nihilus can, therefore he can speedblitz him.

I never said augmenting Force Speed is solely due to power. I understand that there are obviously physical attributes related, but at least some of the power that is part of a character has to translate to Force speed, which is an undeniable fact based on the fact that it is called Force Speed and that it is a Force power alone. Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Maul, so for him to not be able to even react just doesn't sound right to me.

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#5 Posted by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin being caught off guard by Obi-Wan's TK when Anakin wasn't even trying to resist him is not valid proof, and that was not "combative" either.

And he was hindered in the second. The end.

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#6 Edited by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Being in a brand new body which you aren't used to, using a weapon which you haven't trained with before, which has a curved hilt just for kicks, against one of the best duelists in the Star Wars mythos, is absolutely no slight against Talzin in terms of dueling Vader in her own body, with her own weapon. I'm going to leave it at that, because this isn't something I feel like debating further. To say that Talzin wasn't hindered to a particularly high degree that it would really matter in this duel, IMO, is completely unreasonable.

Being in a brand new body never mattered when Palpatine took over his clones, or when Vitiate possessed his hosts.

Who you're fighting against has nothing to do with whether you're hindered in another body or not.

Powerful Force users have wielded lightsabers without training before, including Nomi Sunrider, who isn't anywhere near as powerful as Talzin. That, and Talzin has basic knowledge of lightsabers and swordsmanship in general, so while the curved hilt could present problems, the lightsaber probably doesn't.

She only attacked him once, anyway, so why would any of this matter?

And then, when she was in her own body, and had the opportunity to summon a sword, she didn't, which tells us that she would've had no better luck.

Fair enough, but I do find it hard to believe that all they did off-screen was blade lock. Talzin is probably something like a tier 6 duelist.

Vader being a full two tiers ahead of her in skill gives him an easy win.

And I never said all they did was blade-lock. I just said most of it isn't much for Talzin to boast about.

But she's more powerful than Vader, so her Force speed should be equivalent or better. Right?

Probably comparable. But then, Ferus fought Vader in Reckoning and still couldn't properly react in Secret Weapon.

Vader has a knack for catching targets off-guard, and Talzin is only somewhat, if not only slightly, more powerful than Vader as of RotJ, not exponentially. Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Maul, so the examples don't compare. Also, I only said Nihilus was capable of reacting, not equivalent or better. Also, mind you, Vader is faster than his normal self here, as well, by a noticeable margin.

Here goes another failed attempt at making me look like a hypocrite. Clearly, you failed to grasp my intentions. I said that Nihilus being vastly more powerful than Maul meant he was probably capable of reacting. Talzin being only somewhat more powerful than Vader is likely a negligible difference, since the scaling between power and speed is quite high, and Vader is also amped here, as well, so both his power and speed increases.

By the way, what I noticed was that Talzin needed time to charge up her Lightning. Vader could strike her down in that time, given that he is also amped here.

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#7 Edited by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

What have their feats got to do with Nihilus? If they can demonstrate impressive levels of Force speed, more power to them.

It was in response to your "practical applications" argument.

No - I'm asking you for Meetra's speed feats. Stop undermining my argument by making out that I'm dealing in ideas as simple as "he's faster, speedblitz"

And I've given them to you.

Meetra has processed opponents in less than a second? Reacted faster than peak human opponents?

Maul has seen nigh-imperceptibly fast blows in slow motion, is capable of appearing everywhere at once in under a second to a casual blaster-timer, capable of killing five beings in an eyeflick, moving so fast that a recording needed to be put into slow motion just to see him ect, ect. You're aware of these speed feats, yet you believe what Meetra has to offer can compare?

You can ignore the context if you will, but it certainly does compare when this happened on a potent dark side nexus hindering her abilities and in a novel which already portrayed Meetra as lesser than what she was. That, and again, she has power showings to validate the claim of her Force Speed being comparable to Maul's.

I'm only interested in her power levels, I'm interested in her speed feats.

That doesn't make sense.

Since when has Nihilus ever reacted to someone as fast as Maul? Because reacting to Meetra certainly isn't proof of that.

Nihilus fighting off Meetra, Visas and Mandalore all at once whilst weakened is a good enough showing to react.

To answer your question, though - Komari Vosa, who was able to deflect about a dozen blaster bolts from a marksman who has been cited and seen as killing several Jedi with his blasters. I see that as better reaction speed than processing information in a second or reacting faster than peak humans. Processing the erratic placement of those blaster bolts where other Force Users haven't been able to is just better. And Maul blitzed her by appearing to be everywhere at once in her view. Therefore, he can do the same to Meetra, and by extension, Nihilus, who's only speed feat is reacting Meetra and two other people - all of whom Maul is fast enough to blitz.

Again, you decided to just ignore that Meetra was on a dark side nexus, and that the novel underplayed Meetra as is.

As for deflecting blaster fire, how is that a better feat than Meetra? Meetra has deflected and dodged blaster fire from multiple sources on a potent dark side nexus hindering her powers. Also, killing Jedi doesn't mean other Jedi couldn't react. They were probably just overwhelmed by a number of bolts or something. Blasters are just the same. I don't care if he killed some featless Jedi with a blaster. Even Canderous managed that, and Nihilus fought him, Meetra and Visas all at once whilst Nihilus was already weakened, and then he was weakened again and still reacted to them.

Power =/= Speed. Maul is faster than Darth Malgus and Malgus is stronger than Maul. Yet, their power levels are comparable. Point being - everyone augments their physicals in different ways, so simply being powerful isn't a suitable argument for Force speed.

Malgus being stronger is questionable, and his entire focus is on strength whereas his armor would seem more of the encumbering type in regards to speed and agility. Maul is just faster based on his own training alone.

Power =/= physical speed. Power does, however, have a relation to Force speed, which is what I'm bringing up. That's precisely why it's called Force Speed.

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#8 Posted by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku might have tried to resist Talzin, but I doubt it would matter once Talzin already had control over his body.

None of this really matters. The decision should simply be this: if Vader can speedblitz, he wins. If Talzin lands a hit via Emerald Lightning, she wins.

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#9 Posted by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Anakin is definitely faster, not just potentially faster.

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#10 Edited by ShootingNova (17133 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Would you care to address the instances with the characters such as Vitiate and Joruus C'baoth, which I brought up but never got a response to?

Nope - I just need to prove that Maul has better speed feats than them, by such a margin, that a speedblitz could be justified. What Maul has done to characters of a certain "class" has nothing to do with anything.

So because Maul is faster than somebody and has better speed feats, he can speedblitz them?

Just because Maul is faster than somebody doesn't allow him to simply speedblitz.

So, Meetra has reacted to someone as fast as Maul? Because if someone reacts to Maul, that is their feat. The only way Meetra could replicate such a feat, is if she is in Maul's range of speed, or she has reacted to someone around that level.

No, but Meetra has displayed enough to react to Maul.

If your only argument is "this character reacted to Maul, and they had no speed feats prior to this that surpass Meetra's, therefore Meetra can react" - then we have nowhere else to go. I again stress - if you react to Maul, that's your own speed feat. It's not a case of what they did before that, and how that compares with Meetra - it's a case of, has Meetra got feats to compare to Maul, to suggest she can react to him.

No, I said Meetra has better showings, and therefore she can react, which is not what you're making out my comment to be.

If Meetra doesn't have speed feats around Maul's level, your argument is essentially bust.

And if Maul isn't fast enough to speedblitz Meetra, then he isn't fast enough to speedblitz Nihilus.

No. It's up to you to prove that Meetra is fast enough to react to Maul, by comparing their feats - not what X, Y and Jim have done. Because what X, Y and Jim do is their accomplishment alone. They aren't in a designated class.

Meetra processing her opponents in less than a second and reacting faster than peak-human mercenaries (they did occur on a powerful dark side nexus, though) are her only showings from a novel which severely underplayed her.

That, combined with her own power showings, should give her Force Speed levels sufficient to react to Maul. And before you say it, yes, Meetra does practice active augmentations, because she has fought in countless battles against Sith, Dark Jedi, mercenaries, etc.

You can't just say Maul speedblitzes Nihilus because he's faster. Since when has Maul ever speedblitzed anybody of Nihilus's speed class? Nihilus >>>>>>> Maul in power, therefore, his Force Speed showings are just higher or at least comparable to Maul's. Your idea of them having to practice active Force speed is unsubstantiated and Nihilus contending with Visas, Meetra and Canderous all at once while weakened is enough of a feat to react to Maul.

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