sgcomicguy

@arnoldoaad: I got that I was agreeing with you buddy.

Personally I see the new JLA line up (different from JL in case anyone else is wondering), is kinda like the farm team. They're all kinda B-listers. If JL has a spot open on they're roster they may call someone up from the minor leagues. Now with that said each one of the JLA is interesting (or can be) in their own respect. With Johns writing for JLA's Green Lantern and now Vibe I see this sereis being pretty good, but lets face it this will not be DC's 'go-to team'.

@arnoldoaad: I'm not claiming its 'good' or 'bad' either. But it is in the past- possibly in a different universe. The New52 Captain Atom does not have to act like the old one. He did not have a huge following so DC wanted to go in another direction with him. It is NOT a rip-off. That being said I am not going to claim that the New52's Captain Atom is better than the old one, that is another debate altogether.

In a way Johns did reinvent the mythos. Prior to him there was only Green and Yellow and sometimes pink. Furthermore Green Lanterns couldn't effect yellow, but with in a few issue Johns changed all of that. He had to go back and explain why Hal Jordan, one of the bravest men on earth, could succumb to the effects of Parallax. He had to look at the work of Marz from almost a decade ago and pretty much write it with all his additions. He was under the influence of Parallax for months and it caused his hair to turn white on the sides, rather than Hal getting old and succumbing to his own fears. Rewrites are not a bad thing all the time. In this case John's edits fixed a lot of problems with previous stories and made the character and his history much more rich exciting.

As for your Green Arrow example I agree entirely, they tried something new and it failed miserably.

PS- where did you here "Atrosious was a character created by Alan Moore"? I know Sodam Yat is by Alan Moore (even though I havn't read that issue), but I have never heard about 'Atrosious', also being his design by Moore.,BothComic and Wiki says there made by Geoff Johns. Could you let me know where you heard this, because it sounds really cool :)

@arnoldoaad: I forgot to say- yes I agree with you in regards to Mr.Terrific which you also talked about initially ion your first post. They didn't want the character to be good, they just wanted him to be black. Which sad. As far as Cyborg being the most popular, yes that is true if we don't count John Stewart (who gained fame with the Justice League cartoon), but like you said we know him more as a Titan than his own character and now they've gotten rid of the Titans. I feel the real problem is that these characters haven't been taken seriously until now. All the other members on the team have at least 50 years of being heroes with their own titles and being in the Justice League (made 1960). Had these characters received a pushwhen they were first made this wouldn't be an issue. No new character black, white or any ethnicity, will have an easy time breaking into that world. Characters like John Stewart and Wally West had it a bot easier because they could just piggy-back off an established name along with it's credibility. I don't feel there is any quick fix solution. I like new characters moving up in the ranks of recognition but they have to earn it.If they had some like Johns writing Cyborg and he got attention and then he got the pushthen that would be better. but the closest we got was a 4-issue flashpoint.It's why I'm looking forward to 'Vibe'.

What I mean it is you shouldn't become popular because your on the Justice League, you should be on the Justice League because you're popular.

@colonyofcells I hope they do give him his own series that would be interesting. Perhaps another sidepiece for Johns (although that may be too many projects for him). Who would you like writing/ drawing?

@colonyofcells: I realize the reboots have erased most if not all of the old continuity. That is why the images and all my references (unless otherwise stated) are from after Flashpoint and the 'New 52'. I don't think it could erase everything, basic concepts like Superman being from space still hold true, but until confirmed I presume that it hasn't happened- so you are correct.

LOL- I find your Stephanie Brown idea very intersting, and so far its better than anything DC's giving out :P

@arnoldoaad: You do make a good point here, they are NOT the same, but the whole point of a reboot is for writers to change aspects of less successful characters (relative to Superman and Batman) and try to make them more interesting. All of the things you've referenced are (weather good or bad) 'old' continuity now, so now is the opportunity to rewrite them. This doesn't always have to be a bad thing. When Geoff Johns started to change Green Lantern when he first came on and gave the character a rebirth- both figuratively and literally :P To be honest the part I was really taking issue with was when you called Captain Atom a Doctor Manhattan rip-off. I feel it is an odd to say considering the conception of these characters.

@arnoldoaad: Thanks :)

@colonyofcells:

"4. In the Batman timeline, 1 year is like a thousand years." what ARE you talking about? o.O

So exactly do you feel about Cyborg being in theJustice League?

I ask because when I saw it looked like such a blatant sales grab for minority readers it was almost insulting. Cyborg is an interesting characrater with years of comic book history, but DC through all of that away by putting him on the Justice League and forgetting the Teen Titans ever happened. Every time I read JL he just feels out of place, maybe because of past associations but also his age and the level of respect he holds. Every other member of the JL has their own separate title (if not more). This, to me, has always made the Justice League special, it's a collection heroes/characters who are interesting/popular enough to hold up a series by themselves, and when they come together it is all the more interesting. But DC didn't give Cyborg his own series, because they don't respect his character enough. It is sad to say be I feel like he is just filling some sort of imaginary quota made by DC that says "we need at least one minority and one female character on the flagship team".

Now lets say this works. Lets say people love the new Cyborg and DC begins to have more of a diversity in their readers. Then what? If I like Batman or Superman I can pick up a Batman or Superman comic (or Detective Comics or Action Comics) and read more about my favorite character. But that's not the case here. There's no Cyborg comic for anyone to sign on to if they like him. This is not a push for Cyborg, he is merely filling a quota. In JL#12 we find out that Cyborg never really leaves the watchtower he just stays there by himself. He has not personal life In the way Clark has Lois and any really depth to his character- and I can see why. The only comic book he's in he has to share with 6 other members- each much more popular and iconic than he is. Right now he's just the team's sidekick, he's younger and he doesn't exist outside this comic and he's there but he's not why you bought the comic .

Now if they had put Mr.Terrific on the team, with his own ongoing series at the same time (for arguments sake lets pretend his series didn't suck) then I could believe it was a push. Because I could read his comic outside of the Justice League and enjoy the character in more depth. I could get a sense of his personality and it could even lead to a crossover somewhere down the line (like Aquaman is getting starting in JL#15) and that could boost sales for the solo title. But DC did not take this route, they just did the minimum so they can say 'oh look at how diverse we are'- and I'm not buying it!

With regards to Damian Wayne. Is it possible that he was conceived by Bruce and Talia while Bruce trained with the 'League of Shadows', right before he left for his final lesson? Since 'Final Lesson' happened 10 years ago this would make Damian 10yers old in present time during 'Batman and Robin'. Anytime between Damian being 3-5 years old, his mother/grandfather may have encountered Batman again and taken his cowl, which is why he is wearing it when he is 5 years old. I say 3-5 because Bruce didn't return home until 7 years ago, so that is the soonest he could have become Batman and had a cowl to take. Damian just turned 10 years old 1.5years ago, which is March 2012, just before Batman and Robin #1 and the rest of the 'New 52'. At any rate these are just some ideas in rolling around in my while we all desperately try to make sense of the new DC universe.

I tried to work this out myself here: http://www.comicvine.com/dc-comics/57-10/new-52-robins-my-thoughts-and-questions-please-help/92-730932/

but I did not think of some of the stuff you did. This was a really great post! :)

Hey sorry its wordy but its mostly hyperlinks to pictures for and easier read :P

(sorry in advance for typos)

Dick Grayson:

According to Nightwing (NW) #0 it had been 5 years it and the events of NW#1. In NW#0 it does not specify is this means 5 years since his parents’ death, OR 5 years since he becomes (which is after months of training). In that time the only things we know for sure are that he was Batman at one point (NW#1: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/120358/2576990-nightwing_1_thegroup_002.jpg), he has a Romantic history Barbara Gordan (Batgirl (BG)#3 / NW#4) and Starfire (Starfire Red Hood and the Outlaws (RH&O) #6: http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Red-Hoods-and-the-Outlaws-6-Nightwing-+-Starfire-flashback.jpg), and he has been replaced as Robin 3 times (Batman and Robin (B&R)#12: http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Batmans-Robins-DC-New-52.jpg). Becoming Batman could be in reference to the events after ‘Battle for Cowl’ or the events after ‘Knightfall’- or something else entirely.

As far as costume goes: He never wore shorts, his first appearance was- http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/nightwing-000-18.jpg (NW#0); he did wear his blue 80s costume- http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Red-Hoods-and-the-Outlaws-6-Nightwing-+-Starfire-flashback.jpg (RH&O#6). However there is nothing to support that he wore his black costume with the blue stripe (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090225203242/marvel_dc/images/f/fe/Nightwing_0002.jpg). Prior to becoming Batmen he had the same black and red costume that he is currently wearing (RH&O #6: http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Red-Hoods-and-the-Outlaws-6-Jason-Todd-+-Batman-+-Nightwing-flashback.jpg). In RH&O #6 we see that Jason got his suit with the red batlogo from Kori, who kept it from her relationship with Dick - http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Red-Hoods-and-the-Outlaws-6-Jason-Todd-+-Batman-+-Nightwing-flashback.jpg. My Theory is that this is what Dick Grayson wore under the cowl while he was Batman- thus explaining the batlogo (http://www.francescofrancavilla.com/gallery/images/batman_2009_01_low.jpg).

Did Dick Grayson ever lead the Teen Titans? There is nothing in the New 52 so suggest he lead a group by that name, however there is evidence to suggest something similar happened. In RH&O#6 Dick looks like he is leading a team with Starfire and Arsenal (http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Red-Hoods-and-the-Outlaws-6-Nightwing-+-Starfire-flashback.jpg). In RH&O#1 Roy mentions to Kori about former Titan teammates (http://tansyrr.com/tansywp/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/starfire.jpg), but she cannot recall do to some unexplained memory loss. It is my theory that Dick Grayson lead a team of young heroes as Nightwing, but they were not called the ‘Teen Titans’.

CONTINUITY PROBLEM- Roy mentions Garth and Gar presumably reefing to Beast Boy and Aqualad (RH&O: http://tansyrr.com/tansywp/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/starfire.jpg). Beast Boy is still only a kid in by Teen Titans (TT) #8 with no prior superhero experience and this runs at the same time line as NW and RH&O (according to ‘Night of Owls’). Meanwhile Aqualad ‘Garth’ has just recently been mentioned in passing Aquaman (AM) 14 (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/13/134757/2715855-aquaman.jpg) as a boy. Justice League (JL) #7 also happened at the same time as the ‘Night of Owls’ (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-K4SeBYU-cdM/T9Yp21Lw3FI/AAAAAAAAA6g/5ADtAAWAQjI/s1600/owls2.png), and given the upcoming crossover AM also happen at the same time. Meaning that RH&O made reference to 2 characters who didn’t even exist- let alone have history with them [Somewhat troubling considering Scott Lobdell wrote RH&O#1 and introduce Beast Boy in TT#8]. If someone else can find a solution to this, that would be great...

Jason Todd:

So to some up so far Dick’s parents have died, and he has become Robin. Then he is fired/quits being Robin and leads his own super team, while Batman replaces him with Jason Todd. When Jason and Dick do meet they do NOT get along at all (http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Red-Hoods-and-the-Outlaws-6-Jason-Todd-+-Nightwing-flashback.jpg). Given the previous picture it looks like Dick was just about grown up when Jason took over. According to RH&O#0 the Joker played a hand in having Jason become Robin (http://cdn.ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Red-Hood-and-the-Outlaws-0-2012.jpg ). After becoming Robin he was killed by the Joker (‘A Death in the Family’), and resurrected by Ra's al Ghul, and his Daughter Talia brought him to the Temple of All to train. Next he returned to Gotham to seek vengeance on the Joker and Batman, after what I can only presume was a huge growth-spurt. It is also implied in RH&O#1 that he had fought with Nightwing often after this point (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bV1xktCrbLU/TojULUdyukI/AAAAAAAABao/cVS6ghdUYew/s1600/Starfire+in+a+bikini+red+hood.jpg). This sounds similar to what happened in ‘Battle for Cowl’ (http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/1/14/Dick_beats_jason_BTFC.jpg ) and the events of Grant Morrison’s ‘Batman and Robin’ from before ‘the new 52’ (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llcfsyrdWy1qbujox.jpg ). However this does not confirm that ‘Battle for Cowl’ happened, it could refer to other encounters with Nightwing. This is all supposed to happed in a five year period, and Jason’s half of the story doesn’t even start until Dick is fired/quits- which is at least a year.

Hair: Prior to ‘Crisis on Infinite Earths’ he was a redhead (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100611133952/marvel_dc/images/2/21/Precrisis_jay.jpg ). After this he was a brunette as soon as he met Batman (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Zgdcd7oA5OY/SeY-C8_EX-I/AAAAAAAAAiU/yBbjPD0NbSw/s400/peru21-jason-todd.jpg ). After ‘Final Crisis’ he claims he was a redhead but Batman always made him dye his hair to be more like Dick (http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/per1etwo/comics/p2_bnr05_p15.jpg ). Now in the ‘New 52’ he’s a brunette again- unless he’s still dyeing his hair for no reason at all. He no longer has a white strip of hair from being resurrected by the Lazareth, but could that just be dye? I don’t think it is.

Tim Drake:

In TT#1 I see that Tim had been Batman’s sidekick at some point. It is implied that he is the one in hte picture with batman. (bottom right: http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Teen-Titans-New-52-Splash-Page.jpg) . However based off of his look what you started comment, it is unclear if he means himself, Bruce or Dick. Is it possible that this is Dick Grayson in the picture and he is wondering what Dick Grayson- the first Robin and presumably the first teen hero – was thinking? I feel this is unlikely

In TT#0 we find out that Tim was never Robin. Does this mean he was never batman’s sidekick either? My theory is that he was never called ‘Robin’ (out of respect for Jason) and always referred to as ‘Red Robin’. This explains why his costume in this photo is all red while his predecessors wore almost the same costume (Dick: http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/nightwing-000-18.jpg; Jason: http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Red-Hood-and-the-Outlaws-0-Jason-Robin-2.jpg).

In RH&O#8 it looks as though Tim and Jason are on good terms (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a188/aubreys_master/Other%20pics/rho82.jpg). Tim also makes reference here to events similar to what happened prior to Flashpoint and the New 52 (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060207211460/marvel_dc/images/6/65/Teen_Titans_v.3_29.jpg)

Damian Wayne

In B&R#1 Damian Wayne is approximately 8 -10 years old, which is the age Dick Grayson was when he was first brought into comics as Robin in 1940. Many people have taken issue with DC’s 5 year later idea. They mentions that if Talia and Bruce conceived him while Bruce was Batman, then Damiann should only be 5 years old since Bruce has only been Batman for 5 years. This is a valid point and a problem. As @leokearon points out Damien was/could be a test-tube baby and his aging could have been accelerated. This is not a bad idea, and frankly resolves a lot of issues for me. However, mytheory is that Batman has been around for more than 5 years. He would have to. Otherwise Bruce returns home after years of being missing, becomes batman and meets Dick Grayson all in the same month. This is possible, but highly unlikely so I will dismiss any claim that Detective Comics #0 happened only 5 years prior to current events such as ‘Night of Owls’. JL, after #7, and B&R take place at the same time. Thus JL#1 is 5 years prior to B&R#1 and Damian (had he aged naturally) would have been 3-5 years old. Assuming B&R#0 is part of DC’s ‘5 years ago’ plan then Damien would have been 3-5 years old at this point- http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma58tovVG41qhmpzqo1_500.jpg . By JL#1 Batman has become a myth/legend and humors of him have spread to Coast City (JL#1: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/40/2075187-jlbatgl.jpg ). It is not unreasonable to think that Bruce may have been roaming the streets of Gotham as Batman for 3-5 years prior to JL#1 in order for rumors of him to spread around the nation. If his affair with Talia happened at the beginning of his career (let us assume it does) then we can say that it happened 3-5 years before JL#1 and thus 8-10 years before B&R#1, making Damian 8-10 years old.

Stephanie Brown

So... are we pretending this didn't happen? Does this mean Tim's never had a girlfriend?

Darkseid- 77

Brainiac- 88