seekquaze

How powerful do you rate Mjolnir?  Is it just a well-made hammer that can do some neat light tricks?  If Thor were to ever fully unleash it could it match or exceed the power the Sentry demonstrated in World War Hulk #5?

thoughts?

Ymir is roughly on Odin/Surtur level.  He is generally portrayed as someone even Thor under normal circumstances cannot stop.  I think overall you might say he is a bit weaker than Odin or Surtur, but it is hard to tell.   The problem he has is unlike the other two for all his power he is failry stupid and doesn't really think things through or any strategy but brute force.

Overall Ares has for most of Marvel history been a b-list villain you pull out every once in a while to annoy Hercules.  DC adopted Ares from a Roman standpoint.  Marvel adopted him from  a Greek standpoint where he is at heart a bloodthirty coward.  He has always been portrayed that.  To suddenly have him kicking Hercules' butt after so long of being a mid-level threat would be too weird. 

The problem partly is that over the last few years Marvel writers have kept bragging about how great a war god Ares is at tactics and everything else, but he was never good at things like that.  His fighting styles and strategies revolve around scaring his enemy into submission, but the things he is fighting now do not scare. 

I think he should be a bit more of a direct challenge if they keep promoting him like he is.  On the other hand it would be weird if he was suddenly a lot better.  He is the type of bad ass that brags alot and bullies others when he is more powerful then you, but when someone as big or bigger then him comes up he tends to loose. 

In Mortal Kombat Elder gods were the beings who existed before the creation of the realms and whose powers work in any realm.   Raiden was upgraded to Elder god status by begin given the ability for his powers to work in any realm.  Once he lost it his powers would only work in Earth realm again. 

In Marvel and otherr series it is different.  Sometimes it refers to just a really old god.  Other times it is a specific type of being.  When I posted this on comicbookresources most people agreed Thor could never be one because Elder gods sprang forth from the lifeforceo of Earth itself and had no real parents.

I know the traditional definition in Marvel is an elder god was one of the first lifeforms on Earth. Their ranks include Atum, Gaea, etc., but is the status limited solely to them? I've been thinking on this for a while and came up with some possible critiera:

Note: During this I assume both Marvel's Hyborian Age occurred AND I used the term fairly loosely for any number of mythological creatures since gods, demons, and giants all kind of intermingle with one being a god one time and later a giant or a demon. Ymir during the Hyborian age was worshiped as a god, but later became just a frost giant. Gods often refers to those in power who won a war and those who lost become either giants or demons.

1. Age-The elder gods are some of the oldest living things in the universe being billions of years old. The problem with this critiera is when dealing with immortal beings who tend to stop aging once they reach a certain age how do you define "old age?" Kly'bn was millions of years old, but not called an elder god. Most Earth gods would only be tends of thousands of years old at most.

2. Generation-A god is of a sufficiently old generation. Essentially, a god is a grandparent, great-grandparent, etc. This might work in some cases such as Buri, Gaea, Atum or Ouranos, but I don't thinks it works out totally because a god could only be a thousand years old and be a grandfather or great-grandfather, but what is a thousand years to a god? Thor and Hercules are both between 2000-5000 and not considered that old. Also, Thor is technically Atum's half-brother and Zeus half-uncle or something like that, but I don't think anyone would consider Thor Zeus' elder. (Could anyone even figure out that family tree?

3. Formerly supreme-In material outside comics the Titans are sometimes referred to as a race of "elder gods" because they were the old gods who were replaced by the "new gods" in this case the Olympians. This would also explain how the likes of Ymir and maybe Surtur could be considered elder gods. I think this criteria would help some because there is a clear distinction between old and new, but if the old gods come back into power are they still "elder gods?" Does that mean a god who is worshiped is no longer considered one? You can see the problems with this.

4. Retirement-A god has entered retirement or semi-retirement. They have done whatever task they set out to do, overseen the growth of a civilization, etc. and now they just want to kick back and retire. The best cases for this would be Atum and Buri. Atum fathered the Egyptian gods and retired to the sun. Buri ruled the Aesir for a while and has sense retired. The problem of course is what if a god decides to come out of retirement or is only a few thousand years old before they decide to retire.

5. Power-I just wanted to throw this in because most of the beings called Elder gods are very powerful, but I don't think this should count. The reason most of them are powerful and cunning is generally to live as long as they have takes power and cunning.

Conclusion:
Ultimately, I think what defines and elder gods is a matter of perception. Unlike gods which can be somewhat defined an elder god is a special club if you will that is only bestowed when other gods recognize you as such. It is a combination of all the above because you have to appear old.

Gaea, Atum, Cthon, and Set have all lived for billions of years, some of them are grandparents or great-grandparents, the ages of when they were worshiped on a wide scale have long since passed, and some of them have at least entered semi-retirment after parenting dynasties. So everything about them screams old.

Buri-He has not lived as long as the above, but everything about him screams "old" so he could easily be considered an elder god to the younger generations of gods.

Zeus and Odin-I think both of them would be close to achieving Elder god status, but fall short because even though they are considered older gods neither one really says "old" the same way the others. Zeus is a least a grandfather, but his children or grandchildren have not really established themselves beyond him. Zeus himself often behaves like a college kid and does not plan on retiring any time soon. Odin looks older, but is/was still highly active and part of what is though of still as a modern age of Asgard (modern being a long time for gods). Odin's children have yet to have grandchildren of their own. Given another few thousand years and Odin and Zeus might be up to this.

Kly'bn-Technically older than any Earth god save the Elder gods I don't think he would be considered an elder gods. He has the age bit, but again nothing about him really screams "old" in the same way it does for the elder gods. There were no younger generations of Skrull gods, he was still highly active, he did not look old, etc. He is an old god, but not an "elder god" if that makes an sense.

Zuras and Ikaris-I just wanted ot include the Eternals briefly to make a point. Eternals are not gods and do not consider themselves to be gods, but recent retcons have implied most if not all of them are a million years old. If that is true and assuming for a moment they were gods I would say Zuras is the only elder god among them. He has entered semi-retirment, had children and grandchildren, and is more of a philsopher now then warrior. He just comes across as older then the other still highly active Eternals like Sersi.


I am not saying all the criteria above have to be true. If Gaea was to be widely worshiped you would still be an elder god, but to me the only real difference is to be an elder god you just have to seem "old" to not only mortals, but the current gods. Age is perhaps the least defining factor due to their immortality.

Thoughts?

(I hope this makes sense, due to time constraints and not wanting to be long-winded this is a shortened version of a longer item I have had in my mind.

I admit I have always been traditionally neutral on the character.  I have never really liked or disliked him, but what I find frusturating about him are some of his more unreasonable fans. 

Put the Hulk in nearly any combat situation and no matter who he is facing or what powers it is: "The Hulk will just get stronger and heal and beat the crap out of him even if he is fighting Galactus, dropped into the sun, facing Thor's godblast, etc. etc. etc."

I dislike characters that are treated as invincible rather due to invulnerability, healing factor or what not.

Also, when the Hulk fights other power characters they tend not to use their other powers or even they do it is another "Hulks just gets madder and wins."

Interesting discussion.  I think part of the problem is some people are leaving out important details of circumstances in these discussions.

1.  When She-Hulk arm wrestled Hercules he was mortal.

2. Mortal Hercules is not as powerful as immortal Hercules.  Some writers interpret it as Herc merely losing a large amount of his durability.  Others interpreted it as both his strength and durability being cut in half if not more.  Zeus stripped Hercules of his immortality for a while in the nineties as a form of punishment for some percieved slight.

3.  Mortal Hercules is usually clean-shaven.  Probable to play off the Kevin Sorbo series at the time.  This was the Hercules that fought Hulk in Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed.  Herc's durability was gone and it is possible the writer decreased Herc's strength as well which is why the Hulk beat him so badly.

4.  Hercules is a god.  He was born a demi-god, but Zeus made him a full immortal upon his death.  Ares recently admitted as much.

5.  Hercules cannot increase his strength.  I do not know where this idea came from.  The thing is Hercules is just so dang strong.

6.  Hercules and Thor are equal strength wise.  Every contest of strength from arm wrestling to outright battles as established this as far as I know.  As warriors go there are about equal.  Hercules is  bit better wrestler due to having to use those moves more and lacking Thor's other powers.

7.  The Hulk 9/10 maxes out around Herc/Thor level of strength so they are all about equal.  The Hulk's strength rarely demonstrates getting substantially higher even in his mindless incarnations.  All three have their own massive strength feats.  The Hulk is better known for his because he has a long running series and strength is his niche.    Thor has his share of massive strength feats, but is less known for them due to his other powers.  Hercules has often only been a guest-star in either Thor or the Avengers so his strength has been displayed less, but the few strength feats he has are massive and comparable to the likes of Thor and Hulk.

8.  The twelve labors did happen.  Hercules confirmed then in the "New Labors of Hercules" series and Ares confirmed them recently.  The sixth or seventh labor is one reason for Ares' hatred of Herc.  The only one Herc possible didn't due was the cleaing of the Aegean stables which Gilgamesh probable did.

9.  Holding up the sky is a questionable feat.  When dealing with gods symbolism is often important.  Myths are not always meant to be taken literally, but in this case I think it would still count as a major strength feat.  The symbolism of the story and situation is Atlas has to carry the weight of the heavens (or world) on his shoulders.  That would be a huge load to bear for anyone.