I remembered someone else who can. Dark Schneider and a number of other characters from the manga Bastard. They are supposed to be able to utterly destroy you on the physical, mental, and spiritual levels and have attacks that can destroy galaxies.
seekquaze's forum posts
@seekquaze: Regardless, just because this one encountered ended badly for Hulk doesn't mean that, if or when, we see them collide again that it'll be the same outcome. We might get a very angry, determined Hulk going up against Zeus, possibly with a weapon and/or an enchantment that enables him to shrug off Zeus' high-end mystical might (possible if a certain Sorcerer Supreme or Elder Goddess is involved). It all depends on the writer and the circumstances.
That and anything can happen in comics. Just as long as it's written well, I won't have a qualm with it. Likewise, if Hulk wins or stalemates a Sky-Father, I won't be bothered as long as it's written properly.
I have already stated that I agree with this part. I just don't like it when a character spontaneously develops a new power only vaguely related to their own. Storm suddenly able to manipulate any molecules turning lead into gold type for the sole reason that she manipulates molecules to control the weather would be one example. If Hulk were to go up against Zeus with the God-Killing Blade forged by the Celestials at the dawn of time meant to empower someone to take down skyfathers then I would not have a problem with that. Hulk to suddenly "get angry" and defeat Zeus with the latter using all of his power. Yeah, I would have a problem with that. Given the vast differences in their average showings and power variety I do not see how that can be written well.Why does Marvel always cancel or ruin their best works?
Speaking of Hercules, isn't it a bit odd that he have yet to see him in Jason Aaron's Thor yet? I must admit, I was a fan of Incredible Hercules and hope that Herc gets some spotlight in the near future. He recently appeared in Fearless Defenders... which is sadly ending. :(
Why does Marvel always cancel or ruin their best works?
For economic reasons I haven't been keeping up with Aaron's run recently. I would guess because Hercules as a street leveler is too low to survive in stories with the higher power and danger levels Aaron has been writing. Also, haven't most of Hercules appearances in Thor been tied to either needing extra muscle or Thor venturing to Olympus. Thor has the Warriors Three and Sif for muscle and Olympus stories have been kind of played out.Speaking of Olympus, is it still supposed to be on Earth? One wonders what Zeus has been up to with all these attacks? That is the trouble with having a character that powerful on Earth. On Olympus, you can right him off as ignoring things. On Earth sooner or later the Olympians would be attacked and have to get involved.
Aside from some of the abstract gods like Lord of Nightmares I think quite a few characters could:
1. Any of the higher DBZ characters as Super-Saiyan 1 or higher. They can blow up planets much lower and by this point can destroy solar systems or galaxies.
2. The S-class fighters from Yu Yu Hakusho. They are too powerful for the physics of Earth to contain and combination of strength, speed, and energy would be too much of the Hulk.
3. The Death Note would instantly kill the Hulk.
4. The three goddesses from Tenchi Muyo and Tenchi at his highest. They are supposed to be multidimensional/universe creating powers.
I'm sure there are others but these are the ones that come to mind.
You have to remember that to beat someone does not mean you have to kill them though I am sure there are many beings that can. Also, the Hulk even in his strongest forms is still a physical power which is useless against beings that transcend the physical.
@seekquaze: I wouldn't say it'd have to be extreme for Hulk to defeat Zeus. If it was purely physical, Hulk can definitely do it. If Hulk were to have some kind of weapon, one that can be used to slay gods (Annihi-Blade or Odinsword, for example), that could also work. Or if the writer decides to have Hulk evolve power beyond that of we ever seen before, beyond World-Breaker/Dark Dimension-Breaker, then that's also a possible explanation.
But, like I said, anything is possible in comics. If Hulk ever gets into a conflict with Zeus and either stalemates or even wins, I won't see a problem with it as long as it is well written and fun.
But I'd like to also quote Pak from one of the interviews in regards to the Hulk/Zeus confrontation.
"No one on Earth could have done as well as the Hulk did in that conflict.'
That alone is impressive. Even more so when one considers this wasn't Hulk at his most unleashed. I mean, how many beings can go one-on-one with Sky-Fathers like Odin & Zeus? Not many.
I personally dislike it when a character's power suddenly drastically "evolve" whether it be the Hulk, gods or mutants. Hulk getting the right weapon...sure that is possible. Gorr was a nobody from a dead planet before by either fate or luck he god an elder god's weapon.
Regarding Pak's quote...I am doubtful about that claim. If Hulk did not fight back like some people claim then anyone could have done as well as the Hulk did unless you are counting lasting as long. And then I think an argument could be made that a few characters like Juggernaut, Sentry or heck Wolverine could. Also, do Thor and Hercules count as "on Earth?" If the Hulk did try to fight back he lost big time. Your wording of the sentence "one-on-one" to me implies it was some sort of back and forth battle. Hulk was completely overwhelmed so again I think strong argument could be made that several other characters "on earth" could do that well.
I remember reading in a summary that in one Avengers story arc...I think the "Evolutionary Wars" Hercules fought the High Evolutionary and was evolved into something "beyond godhood." Was it ever elaborated as to what that was and how Hercules returned to his normal state?
@seekquaze: However, Pak also stated that 'But my thinking is that no, the Hulk can't beat an Allfather who's using all his power.' That seems to suggest that Pak intended for Zeus to be using his powers/mystical might to their fullest.
As for World-Breaker defeating Zeus, I could ask, unless you wish to. But one has to remember that it depends on not only writer, but the circumstances. But, as Stan Lee said in regards to Hulk vs. Galactus, 'This is comics. Anything can happen'.
One problem with the Hulk more so than almost any other character is so much has to be specified in a discussion like this. If I say Spider-Man, Thor, Superman, Batman, Darkseid, or most characters they have a fairly consistent status. The Hulk can vary widely not only on strength level, but intelligence level. Whenever someone in general says "Hulk" I assume it is the standard top-tier Thor level being.
Pak's wording of "using all his power" is rather ambiguous. Is it meant to be the way you state that Zeus was using his full might? Is it Pak thinks Hulk is no match for a skyfather who is going all out, but said skyfather only needs to use a fraction of their might? Is it instead referring to the total use of a skyfather's power? We don't know how far a skyfather can augment their own strength. Based on what we have seen in the past it is far higher than the standard top-tier level. If Zeus only augmented say 2-3 times and also negated the Hulk's healing factor that easily might not be his full might since Hulk wasn't healing. If "all his power" refers to all of his power that would include Zeus using lightning to easily kill the Hulk, transformation powers, enchanting objects, etc that Zeus did not use so Zeus drastically held back his power. Either way, to me it looks like Zeus only used a fraction of his might. Pak's statement is that Hulk cannot defeat Zeus or Odin when they are using all of their might the same way Thor, Silver Surfer, or Hercules cannot. Skyfathers exist on a level where even the highest heroes cannot defeat them on their own. They are there "limit" if you will.
Regarding WorldBreaker, that is a whole other can of worms that goes elsewhere. I agree that it depends on the writer and circumstances. Stan Lee is right, if a writer wanted Hulk to defeat Zeus they could arrange proper circumstances just like they could for Aunt May defeating the Hulk in a straight up slug fest. However, as much as suspension of disbelief is used in comics I think we can both agree that it would take a major break of internal universe rules and a lot of preposterous actions for either of the scenarios I mentioned to take place under standard circumstances.
Just to clarify, I regard skyfathers as sort of the border of where things transcend the physical. Yeah, they are still physical beings, but their vast array of powers makes physical battles almost meaningless. So to bring their full might into a battle would mean the fight itself has transcended the physical. A few more die-hard Hulk fans I have talked to who claim that while the Hulk truly is "the strongest one there is" in the physical department admit Hulk would still lose to skyfathers or other cosmic beings because he cannot compete with their reality warping powers. Of course then you have the Hulk fans who think he can.
@greenscar1990: Thanks for the responses. It is about what I expected. Like a good writer his answers are vague and do not commit to anything. A few things I do find surprising:
-Pak does not say Hulk can beat Zeus given the right circumstances. I wonder if he thinks the same about Worldbreaker. Can that version overcomes the full magical might of of a skyfather? A question that has been asked on various vs. boards, but it makes me wonder what Pak thinks aside from "what is needed for the story." Is this something Pak would never writer? And him saying that "Hulk got beat" implies Hulk did try to fight back and lost.
-As to whether Zeus used his other powers, he states it is his opinion that Zeus did, but again this is vague. Zeus increasing his physical strength can be considered drawing upon his godly might and still within the terms of the agreement.
@seekquaze: I hardly see it the way you do. Zeus sending powerful gods (Poseidon, Apollo, Artemis, Boreas) and monsters (Centaurs, Titan-Cyclopes, Gorgons and various formidable mystical beasts) in order to stop the Hulk as hardly servants. And Pak stated in a interview that Zeus didn't keep his word and that the Sky-Father didn't merely use physical strength to overwhelm the Hulk in their confrontation, having used vast powerful mystical energies, his signature mystical lightning and mystically amping his strength to the utmost levels in order to inflict harm on the Hulk, who even told his family to leave before they would ruin everything.
It was also made clear by Pak that Hulk wasn't there to fight nor win, but that's not to say he couldn't win, for this is comics after all. I mean, if Thanos can become Omniverse Supreme in Marvel: The End, then anything is possible. It all depends on the writer and the circumstances, but when it comes to comics anything is possible. But it was made clear several instances that Hulk wasn't fighting back and was allowing himself to get pummeled in a attempt to sacrifice himself. This was something that both Hera & Zeus acknowledged.
I even got the link to one of these interviews if you want it.
Whomever they are they are his servants. Poseidon at least hardly tried to stop the Hulk. The Hulk being on Olympus was implied by the Hulk himself to limit Apollo's might. The monsters you name amount to pets or guards for the Olympians. They are Zeus's servants so it is still the same. Hulk broke into Zeus' house and started making demands. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Greek myth knows this would only rile Zeus.
As for the interview, I take interviews with a grain of salt. I have seen writers say one thing in an interview that is completely contradicted in the comic. Sometimes it is a case of an artist drawing a scene wrong. Sometimes the writers had to cut something. Other times the writer will say something to placate angry fans. Interviews are not canon. At best they can be used to sometimes clarify muddy issues. I don't see that being the case here. In the interview itself, Pak admits he used Zeus as a general stand in for God and has a limit for the Hulk which interestingly contradicts what some people claim about the Hulk being limitless and able to beat the crap out Zeus.
And Pak does not say Zeus broke his word. He states that it is questionable. He commits about Zeus throwing a lighting bolt at the end an in the issue there is no lighting bolt that hits the Hulk after the agreement is made. It sounds like he is trying to appease Hulk fans who were mad at Hulk getting so thoroughly throttled. And again, Zeus increasing his physical strength is little different than Hulk's own ability to going by the wording of the agreement. Both can increase their physical strength and Hulk was free to do so. The main difference is Zeus can do so at will while Hulk usually needs some sort of external motivation. The rest of Zeus' power was channeled through his fists which matched the vague agreement. Nothing was ever said about no other powers being used if that was a capability. If so Hulk should have turned off his healing factor and own dynamic strength.
Could Hulk defeat Zeus under the right circumstances? Yes, but then Aunt May could defeat an enraged Hulk in an arm wrestling contest under the right circumstances. So we don't know if Hulk was not trying to fight back at all or was too overwhelmed. All we know is he went their with the intent to sacrifice himself, but there were several possible ways of doing so. If he was not going to fight back at all he might as well have let Zeus incinerate him with lighting or not thrown a punch at all. Yet Hulk got Zeus to lower himself to a physical fight and deliberate provoked Zeus. Since angering people let alone a notorious fickle god is generally not the best way to get them to help you the idea that Hulk was trying to fight back to impress Zeus with his own valor to me makes more sense than Hulk just standing there. Otherwise, what was Hulk trying to accomplish?
@seekquaze: Hulk can beat gods and vice versa. He can't beat Sky father level but he can beat guys like Thor and Hercules and has done so before. I know some people are tired of the madder Hulk get's the stronger he is but that it is a given fact and in Hulks and Hercs many slugfests, Hulk is usually the one to come on top even when fighting Herc together with other heroes.
Hulk can't win against Zeus, but it is obvious he didn't fight Zeus back even Zeus acknowledges that he came here to sacrifice himself so he would bring his family which was a mistake on Hulks part as Zeus notes because he got the wrong religion and Zeus respects strength. However on top of that Zeus cheated because the fight was suppose to be a straight up slugfest but Zeus clearly used magic and lightning to amp his strength/blows and hinder Hulks healing factor.
The Hulk is odd and in a way kind of like Thor. How effective he is depends on the circumstances. Thor can face the same powerful opponent with and without teammates. If he does not have teammates he can defeat it on his own. If he has them suddenly he cannot defeat the same guy. Hulk is a bit of the opposite. If he faces a top-tier like Hercules the two can have a long, drawn out battle with no victor even if the Hulk's strength is supposed to be increasing throughout. If Hercules is fighting the Hulk with other guys the same thing happens.
And I am still not sold on Hulk did not try at all to fight back. There are several ways one can "sacrifice oneself." If a hero were to enter a fight to delay the enemy in a hopeless battle they can still fight back, but sacrifice themselves since it is a battle they cannot win. Hulk and Banner would know at least the basics of Zeus from mythology and past dealings with Hercules. The idea that the Hulk would stand there while Zeus pounds on him would not impress the skyfather. If Hulk were trying to fight back, but ultimately outmatched Zeus might be impressed by the Hulk's courage. Either way Hulk was not going to get what he wanted because the way he approached Zeus and everything Hulk only served to piss Zeus off.
And I don't think Zeus cheated either. The vague agreement was that the two would engage in a fight fight. That is exactly what Zeus gave him. There was no agreement to not use any other powers. Hulk was free to still use his dynamic strength to "amp his strength/blows" and to heal. Those are Hulk's advantages in a physical fight. Zeus used his own innate powers. If Hulk is free to amp his strength why not Zeus? And since the agreement was only a fist fight and Zeus channeled his powers through his fists then he kept his word.
From Zeus' point of view I am sure he considered himself very generous. The Hulk breaks into his house, beats up his servants, and starts issuing demands. Zeus would have been well withing his rights to incinerate Hulk then and there for the intrusion and disrespect. Instead, Zeus honors the Hulk by lowering himself to fight on a physical level despite the Hulk sucker punching him.
Of course, you are also left with the rarer idea that Zeus did not hinder the Hulk's healing factor with magic. He simply hit the Hulk so hard he overwhelmed it and it took a while for it to get going at full strength again.
The Olympians on the other hand (to the best of my knowledge), didn't receive this treatment and as such is supposed to be 'genuine' mythological characters, as in mankind believed they were gods and they really were (instead of powerful space aliens that looked human).
The Olympians have from time to time had a sort of sci-fi feel to them or at least Pluto has. He has been shown with tanks, televisions and other technological devices. The rest of the Olympians to my knowledge have always been shown relying on magic. Of course, then you have the problem where the Olympians forget their powers when it would make sense to use the. Ares may be the worst example. For the "God of War" he only has been shown with physical abilities.