@NlGHTCRAWLER: @lykopis: I hate to say it, but i just think the way Marvel is going now, that is the way it's going to pan out. I think either current Cyclops will make the ultimate sacrifice and die, leaving a strange legacy for young Cyclops to step into, or young Cyclops is going to kill his former self. I think it will be the latter as Marvel will want these younger X Men to make their mark in returning to the current universe. Having said all that, i am now going to take an aspirin and have a lie down as the whole concept makes me feel like i'm going to have an ANEURYSM!

Damned Marvel and their refusal to just rely on good stories with great characters....

@John Valentine said:

@antemiusenteri said:

@John Valentine:

that is arguable , Jean and Angel never had a choice as to what happened to them but cyclops knew what the phoenix was capable of and he still sought it out , he was going to force hope into accepting it , and when he got possessed ,while he was still in control choose to keep the phoenix ,

Yeah, it's the Avengers' fault he got possessed, namely Stark's. Second to that, I'm not sure one can just give up the Phoenix.

If Stark didn't do what he did, the Phoenix Force as a whole would have entered one of the five X-Men. If that would have happened, they all would have died.

@feebadger said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER: @lykopis: I hate to say it, but i just think the way Marvel is going now, that is the way it's going to pan out. I think either current Cyclops will make the ultimate sacrifice and die, leaving a strange legacy for young Cyclops to step into, or young Cyclops is going to kill his former self. I think it will be the latter as Marvel will want these younger X Men to make their mark in returning to the current universe. Having said all that, i am now going to take an aspirin and have a lie down as the whole concept makes me feel like i'm going to have an ANEURYSM!

Damned Marvel and their refusal to just rely on good stories with great characters....

How could you do this to me. I needed you both to declare me insane. Then you bring up the whole AoA Nightcrawler to shore it up and I...and I....

o-o

Now I will go hug my old issues and rock back and forth slowly in a dark corner....

@lykopis said:

@feebadger said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER: @lykopis: I hate to say it, but i just think the way Marvel is going now, that is the way it's going to pan out. I think either current Cyclops will make the ultimate sacrifice and die, leaving a strange legacy for young Cyclops to step into, or young Cyclops is going to kill his former self. I think it will be the latter as Marvel will want these younger X Men to make their mark in returning to the current universe. Having said all that, i am now going to take an aspirin and have a lie down as the whole concept makes me feel like i'm going to have an ANEURYSM!

Damned Marvel and their refusal to just rely on good stories with great characters....

How could you do this to me. I needed you both to declare me insane. Then you bring up the whole AoA Nightcrawler to shore it up and I...and I....

o-o

Now I will go hug my old issues and rock back and forth slowly in a dark corner....

I do it once a week

@Blood1991 said:

@lykopis said:

@feebadger said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER: @lykopis: I hate to say it, but i just think the way Marvel is going now, that is the way it's going to pan out. I think either current Cyclops will make the ultimate sacrifice and die, leaving a strange legacy for young Cyclops to step into, or young Cyclops is going to kill his former self. I think it will be the latter as Marvel will want these younger X Men to make their mark in returning to the current universe. Having said all that, i am now going to take an aspirin and have a lie down as the whole concept makes me feel like i'm going to have an ANEURYSM!

Damned Marvel and their refusal to just rely on good stories with great characters....

How could you do this to me. I needed you both to declare me insane. Then you bring up the whole AoA Nightcrawler to shore it up and I...and I....

o-o

Now I will go hug my old issues and rock back and forth slowly in a dark corner....

I do it once a week

I'm sorry, lykopis and Blood1991, but i think it's for the best. You can rely on hugging back issues and rocking back and forth slowly in a corner... you can't rely on Marvel (well, you can, but only to screw things up and disrespect characters upon which they have built their empire from our hard earned cash following the characters they now treat like dirt which simultaneously means their treating their readers like dirt and completely disregarding the people who made them in the first place! YEEEARRRGHHHH! puff... puff... puff... Is there room in that corner for one more?)

@feebadger: @Blood1991:

**lifts arm to accommodate third sufferer although Blood1991 is refusing to share his blanket -_-**

@feebadger said:

@Blood1991 said:

@lykopis said:

@feebadger said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER: @lykopis: I hate to say it, but i just think the way Marvel is going now, that is the way it's going to pan out. I think either current Cyclops will make the ultimate sacrifice and die, leaving a strange legacy for young Cyclops to step into, or young Cyclops is going to kill his former self. I think it will be the latter as Marvel will want these younger X Men to make their mark in returning to the current universe. Having said all that, i am now going to take an aspirin and have a lie down as the whole concept makes me feel like i'm going to have an ANEURYSM!

Damned Marvel and their refusal to just rely on good stories with great characters....

How could you do this to me. I needed you both to declare me insane. Then you bring up the whole AoA Nightcrawler to shore it up and I...and I....

o-o

Now I will go hug my old issues and rock back and forth slowly in a dark corner....

I do it once a week

I'm sorry, lykopis and Blood1991, but i think it's for the best. You can rely on hugging back issues and rocking back and forth slowly in a corner... you can't rely on Marvel (well, you can, but only to screw things up and disrespect characters upon which they have built their empire from our hard earned cash following the characters they now treat like dirt which simultaneously means their treating their readers like dirt and completely disregarding the people who made them in the first place! YEEEARRRGHHHH! puff... puff... puff... Is there room in that corner for one more?)

Please join in our misery; I mean every room has at least four corners.

@lykopis: It hides my issues of Hawkeye that go against my corner sulking lol

@Blood1991: LMAO!

I guess the real questions is "What do I think will happen?" and "What do I want to happen?" Think will happen: Cyclops will get squeaky clean just like Jean after Dark Phoenix and Tony Stark after Civil War. However, what I want is for him to go away for a while, and let the First Class Cyclops from Bendis' All New X-Men see what a f'ing mess he made of the world and himself.

@Blood1991: @lykopis: That's okay. I've got my own blanket (~he says , wrapping it round himself whislt simultaneously hiding his 'Brian Michael Bendis Fan Club' t-shirt~)

@feebadger said:

@Blood1991: @lykopis: That's okay. I've got my own blanket (~he says , wrapping it round himself whislt simultaneously hiding his 'Brian Michael Bendis Fan Club' t-shirt~)

Imposter! Drench him in holy water if his skin doesn't melt off he can stay.

@feebadger@Blood1991:

**stares and clutches her Chris Claremont's issues tighter**

@lykopis: @Blood1991: BUT HIS WORK IS OF SUCH A CONSISTENTLY HIGH QUALITY AND HE HAS SUCH RESPECT FOR THE CHARACTER AND HISTORY OF THE CHARACTERS HE WRITES FOR! YOU KNOW... LIKE ROB LIEFELD!

@feebadger@Blood1991:

(this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening...)

@lykopis said:

@feebadger@Blood1991:

(this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening -this isn't happening -- this isn't happening - this isn't happening -- this isn't happening...)

Oh god she has gone into shock...

@feebadger said:

@lykopis: @Blood1991: BUT HIS WORK IS OF SUCH A CONSISTENTLY HIGH QUALITY AND HE HAS SUCH RESPECT FOR THE CHARACTER AND HISTORY OF THE CHARACTERS HE WRITES FOR! YOU KNOW... LIKE ROB LIEFELD!

And you are possessed by a demon...

@Blood1991: @lykopis: These Jason Aaron tweets are killing my love of Kitty Pryde. If this book didn't have Wolverine slapped on the title it'd of been canceled. I'm tired of this goofy chaotic book.

*Bends steel bars* I'm mad!

@lykopis: @Blood1991: Did i say Brian Michael Bendis? Sorry. I meant to say Matt Fraction. Oh, and isn't that Greg Land an original and unique artist? Can't wait for Marvels next epic crossover; Axel Alonso VS Readers Sense of BETRAYAL!!!!

@feebadger said:

@Blood1991 said:

@lykopis said:

@feebadger said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER: @lykopis: I hate to say it, but i just think the way Marvel is going now, that is the way it's going to pan out. I think either current Cyclops will make the ultimate sacrifice and die, leaving a strange legacy for young Cyclops to step into, or young Cyclops is going to kill his former self. I think it will be the latter as Marvel will want these younger X Men to make their mark in returning to the current universe. Having said all that, i am now going to take an aspirin and have a lie down as the whole concept makes me feel like i'm going to have an ANEURYSM!

Damned Marvel and their refusal to just rely on good stories with great characters....

How could you do this to me. I needed you both to declare me insane. Then you bring up the whole AoA Nightcrawler to shore it up and I...and I....

o-o

Now I will go hug my old issues and rock back and forth slowly in a dark corner....

I do it once a week

I'm sorry, lykopis and Blood1991, but i think it's for the best. You can rely on hugging back issues and rocking back and forth slowly in a corner... you can't rely on Marvel (well, you can, but only to screw things up and disrespect characters upon which they have built their empire from our hard earned cash following the characters they now treat like dirt which simultaneously means their treating their readers like dirt and completely disregarding the people who made them in the first place! YEEEARRRGHHHH! puff... puff... puff... Is there room in that corner for one more?)

Wow. Just take my corner ALL OF YOU.

@NlGHTCRAWLER: Invasion on a massive scale. I apologize for us being such a gloomy bunch.

@feebadger: Hey me and Matt have an understanding. If he continues to write a kick ass Hawkeye and never touch the X-Men again we are on good terms. As for Greg Land well I think it is great he was able to get a job tracing models.

@Rickbarry said:

These Jason Aaron tweets are killing my love of Kitty Pryde. If this book didn't have Wolverine slapped on the title it'd of been canceled. I'm tired of this goofy chaotic book.

*Bends steel bars* I'm mad!

**pats shoulder**

@feebadger said:

Did i say Brian Michael Bendis? Sorry. I meant to say Matt Fraction. Oh, and isn't that Greg Land an original and unique artist? Can't wait for Marvels next epic crossover; Axel Alonso VS Readers Sense of BETRAYAL!!!!

Someone get this man some X-Force. Stat.

@NlGHTCRAWLER:

**blowtorches name across the walls of every corner.**

@smtsandi said:

Cyclops is going to go to prison....but will somehow breakout. Thats my prediction. He won't be leader anymore because...well...look what happened! He's killed and destroyed so many lives since gaining phoenix powers. How will the other X-Men trust him. I'm pretty sure some will think he isn't fit to lead them, because he just lead them straight into the ground.

I don't see how he could go to prison. What exactly would the charge be? Seriously.

As far as I know, he's killed only one person. That person was Professor X and it happened on Utopia. Scott was there on Utopia and everyone else came to attack him... He defended himself and ended up killing one person...

But, if you think Scott should go to prison, do you think Ben Grimm should go to prison? Ben Grimm killed thousands of people and did billions of dollars worth of property damage. Ben Grimm was literally a terrorist as he was literally attempting to instill fear by murdering... Now, we know Ben was never arrested or charged because he was possessed by a powerful evil entity... Well...So was Scott... Even if it APPEARED that Scott was in control, he was under the influence of the Phoenix and the Phoenix possessed Scott Summers because of Tony Stark...

But, getting back to the charges. Can you actually point out one single crime Scott Summers committed on the planet earth during the AvX thing. I can't... Unless, defending himself was a crime. But Xavier aside, what else did he do? Where? To whom? What would be the charge? Which court would try him?

@smtsandi said:

@John Valentine:

I know but I highly doubt they are just going to let him go with a slap on the wrist even if he was controlled with the Phoenix Force. I think it would be hard for the other X-Men to trust him because he basically ran the mutants straight into the ground. A lot of the mutants are probably going to be questioning his leadership. Thats just my realistic thinking...I probably shouldn't be thinking realistically when it comes to comics.

It's true that mutants might question his leadership now... But they will also remember that he is, by and large, one of the reasons that mutants still exist.... (and I'm not a fan of his).

Also, consider how mutants think of Jean Grey... Jean Grey was possessed by the Phoenix. She ate an ENTIRE GALAXY. Not just one world, but an entire galaxy. Jean Grey, under the influence of the Phoenix, ended MANY different races... But she is still well thought of and loved... Shouldn't Scott get the same benefit of the doubt? Especially since the Phoenix was forced on him by a mistake of Tony Stark?

I am really sorry to say this because Cyclops was my favorite X-Man, but I think he won't be with them anymore :(

Cyclops to me will always be the X-Man, no matter how much Marvel or anyone else says otherwise.

@Lukkosh said:

I am really sorry to say this because Cyclops was my favorite X-Man, but I think he won't be with them anymore :(

Jean Grey remained with the X-Men after she turned into Dark Phoenix.... Why should it be any different for Cyclops?

@lykopis said:

Here's my take.

Cyclops wanted to harness the Phoenix Force, willing to have a young girl he was so concerned about become infused with it. A force that has killed billions. Let alone his soon-to-be-divorced from wife (although I prefer to think Scott and Jean as best friends at the end).

How anyone could blame Tony Stark for having the Phoenix split into five? These Five were welcoming it --- waiting for it --- were probably more than excited to accept its power for themselves. A lot of arrogance there. So you can't hold someone faultless for accepting something that everyone around them was screaming would possibly destroy the world.

Its like I offered you a pill and say "Hey, this is probably going to make you feel really powerful and do some really stupid stuff because of it," and you take it anyway because you feel you can handle it.

Or let's use gambling. So many of your friends' lives have been devastated by it -- but you go ahead and start gambling because nah --- it won't happen to you and besides, the mortgage is up on the farm. You gotta do it, right?

Right.

So -- I sound like I am bashing Cyclops but truly, I'm not. His tete a tete with Jean on the moon a ways back pretty much spelled out his fate. Having him kill Professor Xavier? Of course. The whole father/son student/mentor ridiculousness that makes for good angst. Cyclops' character has been constantly sacrificed to move the story along --- low blow insults to other mutants - Atlas complex and other martyr-like ridiculousness that is completely unnecessary.

As for other mutants who have killed millions/billions/gazillions -- they were not in control -- they were not themselves -- how much clearer do the writers need to be when they want to brush under the rug ridiculous plot-lines that ruined the characters? With Cyclops, its an excruciatingly long process, like fingernails on a chalkboard for the past year (and more) and frankly, I am sick of it. Put him out of his misery and make him a horrific and awesome villain. Make him go to town because I would rather see that than see him spend the next two years grovelling and trying to make up for what he's "done".

I'm pretty sure that's what's going to happen, however.

I probably sound like a broken record if you've read my past posts but Cyclops was against using the phoenix force in the first place, until Cable gave him the warning. I'm not sure how someone (especially a non-psionic) can resist the phoenix force after it's shot at/into them. Maybe the fantastic four should have resisted the cosmic radiation, Banner should have brushed off the gamma radiation, spider-man should have ignored the affects of the bite. Even when they first received the Phoenix force Cyclops acknowledged that it didn't belong in them. So no, the five were not waiting for or welcoming the phoenix force within them, that's bull. They just kept it because Hope wasn't ready (which she admitted, even wanting Wolverine to kill her) and they knew they could do some good in the meantime. I'm sure if anyone else was shot by the Phoenix buster they would have done the latter as well.

@Deranged Midget: Scott said it the best.

And they forget he masks everything.

Gallery

What I think will happen is he won't be seen as fit to lead for a good while. He was the leader so it all falls on him from Namor murderous rampage to Emmy making everyone bow to her.Cyclops becoming Magneto would be a great plot development I'd love to see but would they go that route? I see him rehabilitated but I'd love to see him defiant.

@soduh2: I get what you are saying, but to blame Iron Man for it splitting apart and entering them is just as subjective? I am sure his intent was to stop the Phoenix Force from destroying Earth. As for Cyclops -- he was pretty confident he would be able to handle the Phoenix Force -- he expressed that to Jean while on the moon when visiting the spot where she "died".

As for the past --- Cyclops was the strongest if not the most vocal opponent to the Phoenix Force, so I am not disagreeing with you. But -- Cyclops' character has been changing for quite some time now --- from his unapologetic attitude towards using kids on killer-teams (X-23 on the X-Force to which he told Emma he would do it again) to encouraging another to kill (Idie).

I am not saying I am against Cyclops -- but he was welcoming the Phoenix. He WANTED it to come. And when it did -- he used its power. If he was waiting for Hope to get "better", then why did the five of them go off and start changing the world? I am pretty sure I read your posts somewhere and there will always be two schools of thought when it comes to Cyclops but I hold firm on my opinion that Cyclops was the architect of this whole Phoenix fiasco. I didn't say I blamed him for trying, his race was on the brink of extinction so anything goes, but to claim he's completely blameless for what the Phoenix Power did while in possession of his X-Tinction Team is not true in my eyes. My eyes, lol -- and I respect your point of view as well.

Either way, I don't like what the writers did to Cyclops. There were other players in the game that would have made more sense in becoming the bad guy.

@lykopis said:

@soduh2: I get what you are saying, but to blame Iron Man for it splitting apart and entering them is just as subjective? I am sure his intent was to stop the Phoenix Force from destroying Earth. As for Cyclops -- he was pretty confident he would be able to handle the Phoenix Force -- he expressed that to Jean while on the moon when visiting the spot where she "died".

As for the past --- Cyclops was the strongest if not the most vocal opponent to the Phoenix Force, so I am not disagreeing with you. But -- Cyclops' character has been changing for quite some time now --- from his unapologetic attitude towards using kids on killer-teams (X-23 on the X-Force to which he told Emma he would do it again) to encouraging another to kill (Idie).

I am not saying I am against Cyclops -- but he was welcoming the Phoenix. He WANTED it to come. And when it did -- he used its power. If he was waiting for Hope to get "better", then why did the five of them go off and start changing the world? I am pretty sure I read your posts somewhere and there will always be two schools of thought when it comes to Cyclops but I hold firm on my opinion that Cyclops was the architect of this whole Phoenix fiasco. I didn't say I blamed him for trying, his race was on the brink of extinction so anything goes, but to claim he's completely blameless for what the Phoenix Power did while in possession of his X-Tinction Team is not true in my eyes. My eyes, lol -- and I respect your point of view as well.

Either way, I don't like what the writers did to Cyclops. There were other players in the game that would have made more sense in becoming the bad guy.

"As for the past..." X-sanction didn't happen that much earlier than Avengers vs. X-men (in story timeline).

"If he was waiting for Hope to get "better", then why did the five of them go off and start changing the world?" Because Hope admitted that she couldn't handle it. She even wanted Logan to kill her. If they were content with using the force for themselves they (or at least Cyclops) wouldn't be deadset on retieving her from the Avengers.

"As for Cyclops -- he was pretty confident he would be able to handle the Phoenix Force -- he expressed that to Jean while on the moon when visiting the spot where she "died"." He actually was very unconfident until AFTER his conversation with Jean. He was complaining about how he was feeling disconnected from humanity and how he was hearing voices in his mind, back on Earth.

"but to claim he's completely blameless for what the Phoenix Power did while in possession of his X-Tinction Team is not true in my eyes." He's the leader, so politically he needs to take responsibility (here we agree). Though I'm not sure how he'd take responsibility over Namor's actions (a mutant ally, non-citizen of utopia).

@soduh2:

1) I am not referring to only X-Sanction when it comes to Cyclops being a strong opponent of the Phoenix. He and 'It" go way back.

2) Sorry --- I don't follow your logic here (sincerely). You are bringing up Wolverine as proof that that? Hope expressed to Logan a while ago that he would need to kill her should the Phoenix Force come her way. Because it was a destructive force. She knew (rightly) that she would not be able to stop it's true purpose -- not that she couldn't handle it? (Although Rachel did pretty good for a while --- why she wasn't used is an entirely different matter). As for Hope declaring she wasn't strong enough -- what does that have to do with the five of them utilizing the Phoenix Force for themselves? Cyclops -- once taken over by the Phoenix, declared he would wait for Hope to be ready to receive it in it's entirety. They could have went back to Utopia and played cards until she was -- under their protection and safe from the Avengers.

3) Nope. He was confident throughout -- just wanted to talk to someone he trusted about how he was feeling -- someone who would understand. He became more confident afterwards. But this is subjective. This is my take on how he walked away from the conversation and I can see how someone else would see it different. Could be because when I read anything to do with Cyclops, I keep the character in mind as he was introduced --- especially since the Claremont days.

4) A leader is a leader. Namor was on his team.

@lykopis:

1. X-sanction was the most recent event which ties into A vs. X. It's more relevant than anyother event in the past. Scott said using the Phoenix was dangerous, and cable asked him to promise "as a father would promise to a son".

2. I'm arguing that they were not welcoming the phoenix force to use for themselves. Everything they did using the Phoenix force (prior to Scott's announcement 'no more avengers') were things they wanted Hope to do. When the Avengers and the X-stinction team were on the moon and Hope was starting to absorb the Phoenix force she found that she couldn't handle it and she asked Logan to kill her. Logan responded "I'll try" and as he lunged toward her Cyclops blasted logan out of the way yelling "No!!"

3. No he wasn't, he said his conversation was "a wake up call" it helped him "remember what's important", ergo he became confident afterwards. While much of this debate is subjective, I'd argue that this point is pretty clear.

4. So Captain America was responsible for Stark's actions during (not in the heroic age when Cap pardoned him) the Civil War becuase they were both Avengers? Heck the US government didn't even blame the Pro-reg side for the anti-reg's actions. I'll say scott's responsible for Emma's actions, but not Namor's. Especially after their disagreement with Hawkeye's body.

@soduh2: I disagree with you about an event being more relevant because of time-frame. The X-Men have come up against the Phoenix many times in the past == each time is relevant. And each time it proved to be a destructive force -- as it did once again. Using the Phoenix isn't "dangerous" its wrong. I don't understand the relevancy about the promise between Cable and Cyclops? People have been proven wrong in the past in the comics world. But I do understand your point of view, absolutely.

So you are saying they intended for Hope to do what they wanted her to do. Like a puppet. So --- being in control of the Phoenix actually worked out better for them because they could do what they intended without using a young girl to do it. Again, Logan willing to kill her was because he promised a long time ago he would because Hope knew it might corrupt her. It wasn't that she couldn't "handle" the Phoenix on the moon, it was because she became completely aware that what she feared about it was true. It was a destructive force. Logan lunged at her because he knew, she knew and even Cyclops knew. So he stopped Logan -- not caring about Hope, only caring about the potential loss of a Phoenix Host. See? This is all opinion. I am not trying to convince you to change yours, just showing you what I walked away with. I do see your points.

Well --- its strange because I feel just as strongly as you do about the conversation on the moon with Jean. "A wake up call" and "remember what's important" were words he used along with commenting how small and incredibly unimportant everything now that he was suffused with the Phoenix. Scary words. So -- again, I am with you about the subjectivity but what is clear to me is that this was a person in danger of losing his humanity. And yet -- he still went ahead with the belief he could control the Phoenix.

Captain America and Tony Stark were on opposite ends of the Civil War? There were no more "Avengers" in the sense of how they were prior to Civil War -- Captain America pretty much gave up his leadership when he went underground. I can't see how he would be held liable for all of Stark's decisions outside of those he was aware of and condoned.

If you are saying that Namor pretty much abandoned the team with his actions then I am with you there and apologize for misunderstanding you. I am saying as leader, Cyclops' is responsible for everything he instructed his team to do ---as for those who did what they wanted outside of that? They should be held accountable. They ALL should be. And -- the intention of them receiving the Phoenix was in good faith -- and that needs to be accounted for as well. I see the hypocrisy with how Cyclops is being treated -- that's why the writer's had him kill Xavier, to really drive the point home which to me is utter CRAP.

There is a lot wrong with AvX and how its being ended. And I suspect there is more to come.

@lykopis: Hang on, this is going to be a long one :p

I'm in between classes so I have some free time. No disrespect to you in any of my posts. I may not respond after this though I will read what you have to say.

Well --- its strange because I feel just as strongly as you do about the conversation on the moon with Jean. "A wake up call" and "remember what's important" were words he used along with commenting how small and incredibly unimportant everything now that he was suffused with the Phoenix. Scary words. So -- again, I am with you about the subjectivity but what is clear to me is that this was a person in danger of losing his humanity. And yet -- he still went ahead with the belief he could control the Phoenix.

You got to look at the dialogue in order, he said everything was unimportant BEFORE he said the discussion was a wake up call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdyT3C_o95g

1. Cyclops states everything he's accomplshed but then asks himself "what's bothering me"?

2. As he tries to think about it he's assaulted by telepathic thoughts.

3. Leaves for the moon.

4. Started thinking about Jean's sacrifice and asks why doesn't he "feel anything"

5. He needed to talk to Jean because he couldn't tackle that issue on his own.

6. Jean tells him that he's done a good and logical job with the Phoenix force "so far", it amplifies what's inside of him, and that she started to think that everything around her was tiny.

7. He tells her that he believes he's capable of keeping control but she tells him there's more to it than that. Losing perspective and losing one's self. She says he came to the moon to see if he could emotionally connect to an important place. And he couldn't.

8. He agreed that it was a problem for him. Then asked "does he still have his humanity?" To which jean responded that he wouldn't have constructed an echo of her out of moon dust if he did.

9. He says that his conversation was a wake up call, and that he will not let go of his humanity because he'll lose sight to whats important. Which connects to a conversation he had with Professor X in another issue about why he still wears his protective glasses and his visor. Even though he doesn't need it anymore.

He was unconfident, knowing that while the phoenix force is a powerful tool for change, something deeper about him changed when he had it. His conversation with Jean made him acknowledge what the issue was and from there he promised to hold on to his humanity. Ergo, he became confident. I honestly can't see how anyone can look at it any other way. No disrespect to you, I might have missed something in my analysis.

I disagree with you about an event being more relevant because of time-frame. The X-Men have come up against the Phoenix many times in the past == each time is relevant. And each time it proved to be a destructive force -- as it did once again. Using the Phoenix isn't "dangerous" its wrong. I don't understand the relevancy about the promise between Cable and Cyclops? People have been proven wrong in the past in the comics world. But I do understand your point of view, absolutely.

Cable went back through time to attack the Avengers because he knew they would prevent Hope from using the Phoenix leading to another bad future. It's not just about the promise, it's about helping the future inconjunction with that (as well as mutant kind).

I disagree with using the phoenix being "wrong". Mr. Fantastic said to the illuminati he doesn't know what is really "natural" in the progression of the world. His future son healed Galactus and saved the world from evil Celestials. So he doesn't know if the phoenix 5's actions were really wrong. He challenges the Avengers if they are just jealous that they didn't have a part in the Phoenix 5's positive actions, and that the negative reprecussions were from them poking at the situation with a stick. And they were speechless. From an outside (reader's) perspective, I would argue that what the phoenix 5 has done with the phoenix force is actions that should have been accomplished with the preexisting scientific advancements in the Marvel Universe. The fact that it took this long to solve world hunger and end war is unforgivable in my opinion. You have cosmic forces, super geniuses, and mystic warriors and literal deities on Earth and yet the Marvel earth still faces problems we face in the "real world" because humanity hasn't "advanced enough yet?" Get real.

So you are saying they intended for Hope to do what they wanted her to do. Like a puppet. So --- being in control of the Phoenix actually worked out better for them because they could do what they intended without using a young girl to do it. Again, Logan willing to kill her was because he promised a long time ago he would because Hope knew it might corrupt her. It wasn't that she couldn't "handle" the Phoenix on the moon, it was because she became completely aware that what she feared about it was true. It was a destructive force. Logan lunged at her because he knew, she knew and even Cyclops knew. So he stopped Logan -- not caring about Hope, only caring about the potential loss of a Phoenix Host. See? This is all opinion. I am not trying to convince you to change yours, just showing you what I walked away with. I do see your points.

See previous point about Cable.

Based on her conversation with Scarlet Witch in the preview, as well as her previous belief that she could handle the Phoenix within her, they weren't hoping to use her as a puppet. They were more or less on the same page about what they'd do with the Phoenix force. I'm more surprised that Magick and Namor were in sync with Cyclops than any one else. I agree that they knew the risk but I'm not sure if the risks really outweighed the benefits here.

I see the hypocrisy with how Cyclops is being treated -- that's why the writer's had him kill Xavier, to really drive the point home which to me is utter CRAP.

While I understand WHY Xavier was killed, to make it look like Scott crossed the line, I still believe his actions were justified in killing him. He had the complete Phoenix force within him and everyone around him was trying to kill him. Granted Xavier was doing what he believed was best, Cyclops has a defense there too. Whether the writers acknowledge that is a different story.

@ApatheticAvenger: Ageed!

@soduh2:

Fair enough --- I read through your points a few times to ensure I understood them, and following the logic of what was presented during AvX I can see where some of your points can be applied correctly. Maybe I am guilty of approaching this event with the knowledge I have gained through previous stories where the Phoenix was front and centre in the Marvel Universe. Add to that lovely panels of worlds being consumed while the Phoenix made its way to Earth, I think its safe to say it would be understandable. I could pull up scan after scan of the Phoenix being a malevolent force in the past but they mean nothing now I suppose since the most recent story is what is now canon, whether I like it or not. I suppose the editorial staff wants us to forget about the galaxies consumed by the Phoenix -- perhaps for some purpose outside of utter destruction as suggested by Mr. Reed. Forgive me, I think that's going to take me a while to swallow as a long-time fan.

So -- having said that, (and re-reading the conversation Cyclops had with "Jean" on the moon), I still have the same mind-set I had before but I do recognize I am perhaps biased by my disappointment in how characters have been depicted. I believe Scott already lost a part of his humanity before that moment, but whatever remained was being lost as well. Using the Phoenix was wrong -- I get that it was used to cure the ills of the world (which yes, shame on all the superheroes of the world for not focusing on that earlier - another issue I have) but this is an entity that has killed BILLIONS. That is still canon. So let's ignore that history because it was used to cure the ills of one little planet in the universe? It does not make a lick of sense.

Scott's actions in killing Xavier were not justified. If you present him as the Phoenix, then I can see WHY Xavier was killed, but if you present it as Scott? No. The distinction needs to be made here. The Cyclops I know would have found another way -- that was what I really enjoyed about the character over the years. He always figured out another way, and he always got the job done.

Thanks so much for being patient with me and taking the time to illustrate your points with me so compellingly. I certainly appreciate the points of other fans which are as thought out as yours. :)

(As written..which has been terrible) Cyclops is in the wrong, period.

Just accept that the writers made everyone involved look bad and you will feel a lot better.....at least until the next issue comes out.

@Brazen_Intellect said:

(As written..which has been terrible) Cyclops is in the wrong, period.

Just accept that the writers made everyone involved look bad and you will feel a lot better.....at least until the next issue comes out.

Or the next event.:p

I think there may be something interesting concerning him and Scarlet Witch, since they have both been possessed by a supernatural force that is impossible to control. Who knows Cyclops may become more hated by mutants that she was.

I despise cyclops but that doesn't mean I think he should'nt be an X-man I think he should be in just left out because honestly I think the X-man could do without him for a bit.

@lykopis said:

@soduh2:

1) I am not referring to only X-Sanction when it comes to Cyclops being a strong opponent of the Phoenix. He and 'It" go way back.

2) Sorry --- I don't follow your logic here (sincerely). You are bringing up Wolverine as proof that that? Hope expressed to Logan a while ago that he would need to kill her should the Phoenix Force come her way. Because it was a destructive force. She knew (rightly) that she would not be able to stop it's true purpose -- not that she couldn't handle it? (Although Rachel did pretty good for a while --- why she wasn't used is an entirely different matter). As for Hope declaring she wasn't strong enough -- what does that have to do with the five of them utilizing the Phoenix Force for themselves? Cyclops -- once taken over by the Phoenix, declared he would wait for Hope to be ready to receive it in it's entirety. They could have went back to Utopia and played cards until she was -- under their protection and safe from the Avengers.

3) Nope. He was confident throughout -- just wanted to talk to someone he trusted about how he was feeling -- someone who would understand. He became more confident afterwards. But this is subjective. This is my take on how he walked away from the conversation and I can see how someone else would see it different. Could be because when I read anything to do with Cyclops, I keep the character in mind as he was introduced --- especially since the Claremont days.

4) A leader is a leader. Namor was on his team.

It's kind of annoying to see people blame Cyclops for what his team did behind his back because he's their leader.

Look at Captain America. Thor took over the world and the Scarlet Witch went insane and nearly wiped out a species among other things under his leadership. When will he be held accountable. The funny thing is Captain America says that 'the Avengers take care of their own'. And that the Scarlet Witch would be brought to Justice, but that hasn't happened and it probably won't happen. Cyclops has done far less damage and after being provoked and corrupted by the screw ups of the Avengers and he's going to jail for it.

And as a bonus... it turns out that Scott was right. Rachel needed to be trained so that she could control the Phoenix. So what Scott was doing wasn't wrong, and because of the Avengers' interfering Scott is hated by the mutants he sacrificed so much to protect.

@LeeSensei said:

@lykopis said:

@soduh2:

1) I am not referring to only X-Sanction when it comes to Cyclops being a strong opponent of the Phoenix. He and 'It" go way back.

2) Sorry --- I don't follow your logic here (sincerely). You are bringing up Wolverine as proof that that? Hope expressed to Logan a while ago that he would need to kill her should the Phoenix Force come her way. Because it was a destructive force. She knew (rightly) that she would not be able to stop it's true purpose -- not that she couldn't handle it? (Although Rachel did pretty good for a while --- why she wasn't used is an entirely different matter). As for Hope declaring she wasn't strong enough -- what does that have to do with the five of them utilizing the Phoenix Force for themselves? Cyclops -- once taken over by the Phoenix, declared he would wait for Hope to be ready to receive it in it's entirety. They could have went back to Utopia and played cards until she was -- under their protection and safe from the Avengers.

3) Nope. He was confident throughout -- just wanted to talk to someone he trusted about how he was feeling -- someone who would understand. He became more confident afterwards. But this is subjective. This is my take on how he walked away from the conversation and I can see how someone else would see it different. Could be because when I read anything to do with Cyclops, I keep the character in mind as he was introduced --- especially since the Claremont days.

4) A leader is a leader. Namor was on his team.

It's kind of annoying to see people blame Cyclops for what his team did behind his back because he's their leader.

Look at Captain America. Thor took over the world and the Scarlet Witch went insane and nearly wiped out a species among other things under his leadership. When will he be held accountable. The funny thing is Captain America says that 'the Avengers take care of their own'. And that the Scarlet Witch would be brought to Justice, but that hasn't happened and it probably won't happen. Cyclops has done far less damage and after being provoked and corrupted by the screw ups of the Avengers and he's going to jail for it.

And as a bonus... it turns out that Scott was right. Rachel needed to be trained so that she could control the Phoenix. So what Scott was doing wasn't wrong, and because of the Avengers' interfering Scott is hated by the mutants he sacrificed so much to protect.

I get your perspective and I agree completely about the hypocrisy of Captain America and the other Avengers. By stating that Scott is responsible for his team doesn't negate that? Sure, what his team did behind his back isn't of his own doing and they should be and will be held accountable for it, but just like in the army -- the higher ups get the heat as well. These were people he chose to become part of his team when many of his old colleagues and friends warned him it could be a mistake. He made the choice to have them remain on his team, and that was before the Phoenix arrived. He has some culpability there. As a leader.

Now, as for him being held in custody and having to go through a trial? What a joke. For exactly the reasons you brought up. This whole Avenger focus is annoying the heck out of me.

@lykopis said:

@LeeSensei said:

@lykopis said:

@soduh2:

1) I am not referring to only X-Sanction when it comes to Cyclops being a strong opponent of the Phoenix. He and 'It" go way back.

2) Sorry --- I don't follow your logic here (sincerely). You are bringing up Wolverine as proof that that? Hope expressed to Logan a while ago that he would need to kill her should the Phoenix Force come her way. Because it was a destructive force. She knew (rightly) that she would not be able to stop it's true purpose -- not that she couldn't handle it? (Although Rachel did pretty good for a while --- why she wasn't used is an entirely different matter). As for Hope declaring she wasn't strong enough -- what does that have to do with the five of them utilizing the Phoenix Force for themselves? Cyclops -- once taken over by the Phoenix, declared he would wait for Hope to be ready to receive it in it's entirety. They could have went back to Utopia and played cards until she was -- under their protection and safe from the Avengers.

3) Nope. He was confident throughout -- just wanted to talk to someone he trusted about how he was feeling -- someone who would understand. He became more confident afterwards. But this is subjective. This is my take on how he walked away from the conversation and I can see how someone else would see it different. Could be because when I read anything to do with Cyclops, I keep the character in mind as he was introduced --- especially since the Claremont days.

4) A leader is a leader. Namor was on his team.

It's kind of annoying to see people blame Cyclops for what his team did behind his back because he's their leader.

Look at Captain America. Thor took over the world and the Scarlet Witch went insane and nearly wiped out a species among other things under his leadership. When will he be held accountable. The funny thing is Captain America says that 'the Avengers take care of their own'. And that the Scarlet Witch would be brought to Justice, but that hasn't happened and it probably won't happen. Cyclops has done far less damage and after being provoked and corrupted by the screw ups of the Avengers and he's going to jail for it.

And as a bonus... it turns out that Scott was right. Rachel needed to be trained so that she could control the Phoenix. So what Scott was doing wasn't wrong, and because of the Avengers' interfering Scott is hated by the mutants he sacrificed so much to protect.

I get your perspective and I agree completely about the hypocrisy of Captain America and the other Avengers. By stating that Scott is responsible for his team doesn't negate that? Sure, what his team did behind his back isn't of his own doing and they should be and will be held accountable for it, but just like in the army -- the higher ups get the heat as well. These were people he chose to become part of his team when many of his old colleagues and friends warned him it could be a mistake. He made the choice to have them remain on his team, and that was before the Phoenix arrived. He has some culpability there. As a leader.

Now, as for him being held in custody and having to go through a trial? What a joke. For exactly the reasons you brought up. This whole Avenger focus is annoying the heck out of me.

Not really. He gave them orders not to kill. He told Namor to be patient. He healed Hawkeye when he was nearly killed by Emma Frost and he repeatedly warned the Avengers to stop attacking them. They hadn't done anything wrong. Captain America decided to go over to his home and kidnap his teenage daughter, while Thor beat up one of the students. They started this mess and shifted all of the blame on Cyclops.

@LeeSensei:

I get your perspective. Trust me. The whole AvX thing was heavily biased against the X-Men, and has been created as a way to vilify Scott. However, he was the one who invited the Phoenix -- he wanted it harnessed and used. An entity that has murdered billions of people. Destroyed planets. Just that alone was his first misstep and the consequences are on him.

We have different viewpoints about the situation on Utopia which would explain why we don't see eye to eye on this. Fair enough.

Scott Summers a.k.a. Cyclops, the true mutant messiah. He isn't the hero the Homo Superiors deserves, no that's Wolverine. He is the hero Homo Superiors need, don't you ever confuse the two! Long live Cyclops.

@lykopis said:

@LeeSensei:

I get your perspective. Trust me. The whole AvX thing was heavily biased against the X-Men, and has been created as a way to vilify Scott. However, he was the one who invited the Phoenix -- he wanted it harnessed and used. An entity that has murdered billions of people. Destroyed planets. Just that alone was his first misstep and the consequences are on him.

We have different viewpoints about the situation on Utopia which would explain why we don't see eye to eye on this. Fair enough.

He didn't invite the Phoenix. It came on his own and he wanted to train Hope and give it to her (that's what the Avengers did and it saved the world). He was completely right, but Cap screwed things up for him. Fair enough?

@LeeSensei: I should have used another word. The Phoenix was coming and he was welcoming it. No -- he was not completely right. Captain America and other Avengers knew the horrors of the Phoenix and did what they had to do to circumvent it. That is my opinion, entirely. As for Cap screwing it up? Well, in hindsight maybe I will give you that. Fair enough?

@lykopis said:

@LeeSensei: I should have used another word. The Phoenix was coming and he was welcoming it. No -- he was not completely right. Captain America and other Avengers knew the horrors of the Phoenix and did what they had to do to circumvent it. That is my opinion, entirely. As for Cap screwing it up? Well, in hindsight maybe I will give you that. Fair enough?

Not really. Cyclops was welcoming it because it was the right thing to do. The Phoenix had to come to fix Wanda's mistake and Hope had to use it's powers. And no. Cap and the others didn't really know much about the Phoenix because the Avengers didn't have to deal with it before. The X-Men did. And the Phoenix was controlled twice by people who kept it for several years.

@LeeSensei:

No -- Cyclops was taking a chance. The Phoenix ultimately fixed Wanda's mistake -- true -- but that's in hindsight. Unless Cyclops had the gift of seeing into the future, he had no way of knowing so the whole world was in danger. And the Avengers do know about the Phoenix, I don't know why you would feel they didn't? But there are X-Men there as part of the Avengers who do so? Each time the Phoenix was "controlled" it never ended well.