rpottage

So her speed is travel speed, not combat speed; so I'm not sure how important it is.

And this is probably lowballing her a little bit; but since we don't really have more information it's the best I could do:

Friday says something is entering the atmosphere, which is 100 km from earth. It's maybe 10 seconds later when Carol arrives to earth. That's 10 seconds to go 100km. 100km in 10 seconds is 360 000 km/h. That's roughly 291.5 times the speed of sound.

So then you're admitting she didn't lose a fair fight.

You mean the fight where she was ambushed and injured early on, then spent the entire "fight" trying to protect the gravely injured vision instead of taking out the other two?

In which case we have exactly 1 fight between her and Thanos; the fight in which she demolishes him. And no, he wasn't fighting other Avengers. He was fighting her, just her, and she destroyed him. She didn't cut him off from his gauntlet, he didn't have it. It was just him versus her, both of them out for blood; and she won.

Wanda didn't simply "lose twice" in Infinity War. She destroyed the mind stone while holding off Thanos; and you can clearly see the space stone glowing when she's holding him off. She only "loses" when he surprises her by bringing back Vision then sucker punching her while she's shocked.

She then demolished Thanos in Endgame because he didn't have the stones anymore.

No, lowballing would be pointing out the Tank was attacked twice before Hulk caught it; and that the second attack seemed to blow the turret completely off. Which is why there was no turret while Hulk was holding the tank. Making it likely less than 50k pounds; and assuming it's the older model of tank that weighs about 10k less to begin with making it less than 40k pounds.

That would be lowballing. Instead I gave it the benefit of the doubt that it was the heavier version of tank, and that the two attacks did 0 damage to the tank.

What I didn't do was highball it. I used some basic calculations to figure out what a fair weight of both vehicles would be. Which has nothing to do with durability anyways.

And since my first post I pointed out that Shazam might not have the strength but he has the speed, electricity generation, and flight. none of which you ever addressed.

@thanos_thebadas: The assault takes place in what would be a former Soviet Bloc country; meaning the tank would most likely be a modified T-55, or possibly a T-72. Both are lightweight tanks, and while the T-55 is more common it's also lighter, but also older.

A T-72 weighs about 90k pounds; but about 40k of that is the turret which would've been completely removed and redesigned for the Tesseract Weaponry. It also doesn't hold the heavy ammunition that a T-55 would have. So with the modifications you're looking at closer to 50k pounds.

A typical bus with passengers weights about 38k pounds. Which means it's only 12k pounds difference; not nearly enough to say Hulk outclasses Shazam.


Running through metal is far less impressive than going through the ground. The sheer density of the ground is much more impressive. So since we already have that feat; everything below that isn't impressive.

Except they don't showcase his durability because he keeps getting beaten. It's not like he takes the attacks from Ironman then wins; that would be more impressive. But he loses, which means those attacks are the limit of what he can take. He can't take anything more than that.

Except that since Hulk never gets to shine, showing how powerful Thor/Hulkbuster/Thanos are simply have the effect of showing how weak the Hulk is. That's the Worf effect. You introduce a character as being really powerful, so that later on you can show how powerful other people are by having them beat that character. But since you never re-establish their power and just have them keep getting beaten, it actually just makes them weak. Thanos beating Hulk is meaningless because Hulk never beats anyone. The fact that he does it so easily, then appears to have more trouble with the Ironman team or with Captain America just highlight that problem.

No, I didn't fail to mention the Abomination feats; you're just not listening. The abomination feats all take place in the first movie. But the MCU has basically abandoned that movie. They used it to set Hulk up as powerful, but only in that one movie. He never displays anything close to the feats he did in that movie elsewhere. That's how they set him up as the embodiment of the Worf Effect. But it also makes the feats from that movie useless as they are barely canon and would be outliers.

I didn't ignore the shockwave in the Ironman fight either; I combined the Ironman fight into one point; which was that it's a suit of armor to which Hulk lost. He was matched in strength, and subsequently beaten, by armor. That's not impressive.

@thanos_thebadas:
Running through metal: Okay. That's not a super impressive feat. Shazam was tackled through the street and shrugged it off.

Catching a tank: He does catch a tank. It's damaged however, and it uses tesseract weapons instead of heavier ammunition. Ultimately this would be about on par with Shazam catching a bus. Maybe slightly stronger, but not much; and Hulk doesn't keep it very long while Shazam holds it in the air for much longer.

Bunker: Same thing as the metal.

Leviathan: Yes, the Leviathan was one of the two scenes I said he had in Avengers that was impressive.

The Hulkbuster is simply a suit of armor; and it matched Hulk's strength and defeated him.

Car kick: That's less impressive than his other feats, so meaningless.

Going through the ground: That's probably his best feat in that movie. It also puts him on par with Shazam going through the street.

You then have clips of a fight he lost to Ironman. A fight where he failed to defeat a weakened Thor and a re-powered Thor knocked him on his ass so the Grandmaster freaked out and stopped the battle. And the one movie I said had his feats, that Marvel basically ignores; and that was used to set him up as a threat so he could then be the embodiment of the Worf Effect.

The Leviathan feat was the only one that could've arguably put him as stronger than Shazam; but it's not quantifiable, so it's no more useful than Shazam fighting Sivana. Durability wise he should be extremely durable based on the first movie; but the Avengers, Age of Ultron, and Infinity War all diminish his durability feats

You replied to my original post and started this chain; but you're unwilling to admit when you're wrong or to really debate. You just drop things, and say look at the respect thread.

So why would I go out of my way to search for points you made elsewhere and then debunk or debate them; when I know you're not going to listen?

The points I made.

e.g. Worf Effect, anger before Hulkbuster, limited foes and important scenes, etc.

I made a pose about all that stuff, and your response was: No, respect thread. Still powerful.

Not a compelling argument/counter-argument.

Agree to disagree then. You're not going to address my points, and the respect thread doesn't change my view.

He was conscious, but the fight was over. Hulk pummelled Thor with all his might, only for Thor to shrug it off and send him flying when he unlocked more of his power. Which absolutely stunned Hulk, and freaked the Grandmaster out.

You should watch the clip again, he doesn't shiver. He stops and looks at all the destruction he caused. Then he gets angry again, starts to growl, gets into his charging position, clenches his fist; and his knocked out by Ironman.

The MCU Hulk is essentially the embodiment of the Worf Effect. They gave him one movie where they let him show off his strength (and then subsequently ignored that movie), then gave him two scenes in Avengers (Thor vs Hulk, and punching the Chitari Whale); and have since then continually used him to show how other people are badass.

Oh look, Hulk got beat by the Hulkbuster; that's how powerful it is.
Oh look, a weakened Thor can go toe to toe with the Hulk; and can beat him by unlocking his power.
Oh look; Surtur is so powerful he can just shrug Hulk off.
Oh look, Thanos is so strong he can decimate Hulk.

And that's basically it. He doesn't fight anyone else really. The Hulk is a seriously mismanaged character in the MCU.