Regenesis: Ideologies and Romances

With Regenesis just around the corner, I think that its going to be a good time to be a X-Men fan, which - let's face it, seems to be the cause of all X-Men related problems for us Comic book fans, or well, X-Men fans. The most prominent reason why I say this is because we have learnt that Wolverine will be opening a academy for "gifted youngesters", which leads me to my next point.

You're here thinking "Wolverine as a Headmaster, opening an Academy? This is stupid, bad writing". I say No, you're wrong.

  • Wolverine's Ideology - The thing is, for the most part Wolverine is always seen as an agressive man who is always the one who is closest to killing off the target than any other X-Men, which is why people might not understand why he is heading the academy, but its very simple. Wolverine doesn't mind killing, but he hates children doing it, or even fighting for that matter. He wants them to conserve their innocence in whichever way it is possible to do so, considering the world is against them and trying to kill them at every step.
  • Cyclops' Ideology - Cyclops believes that everyone needs to fight for the Human race to survive, which has turned him into a huge a**hole, because writers don't know how to write a harda**. Which really displeases me, but oh well... This isn't a b*tch at Cyclops blog.

Lastly I'd like to mention how I'd like this shizz to go in terms of Romance and the ever lasting love triangle that is found in between Cyclops and Wolverine. I think that it is nearly essential for Cyclops to go out and try to find himself a girl, since the trying part would be good for his character, while Emma Frost would go solo, which would help her, much like it was mentioned in Babs' recent Article. Lastly, I'd like Wolverine to hook up with a ressurected Jean Grey, which would bring much more spice to the X-Men's love life, since Cyke x Jean seemingly got stale.

40 Comments
40 Comments
Posted by Edgeworth_11

Emma is being written better these days. Her and Scott stay together but Namor in there is interesting too. Lets wait and see what happens with this. I have a feeling Emma will be at her best again soon. But I think she is awesome still. She was a total bitch to Sue Storm in the adjectiveless X-men about how all the women love Scott but none love Reed lol
Posted by Edgeworth_11

And I agree. I am not sure why people call Logan a hypocrite. Its obvious he doesn't mind killing if it's necessary but its when children, innocent children are killing, than that's the problem.  
 
And Scott is no ass. He is making the tough choices for the better of mutantkind.
Posted by ReVamp

@Edgeworth_11 said:

And I agree. I am not sure why people call Logan a hypocrite. Its obvious he doesn't mind killing if it's necessary but its when children, innocent children are killing, than that's the problem. And Scott is no ass. He is making the tough choices for the better of mutantkind.

A guy called Logan a Hypocrite and even posted a picture of him telling armor that if it was necessary she could "not hold back" and I remember disproving the sh*t out of that post. Kinda pissed me off... lmao.

He's not supposed to be an a**, but that how he ends up being written, because the writers can seem to conviniently write the fine line between making tough decisions no one likes and being an a**

Posted by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp: The thing is, Wolverine has historically not been the children's advocate Aaron is making him out to be. In Kitty Pryde's own words, he taught her to use a sword before she was old enough to wear a bra. And this was before the entirety of the mutant race was in danger of being wiped off the face of the earth.

And let's be entirely honest here, the kids that Wolverine wanted not to fight have already seen their share of combat. Hope Summers is far from an "innocent" child. She was raised in an apocalyptic future by Cable, the ultimate mutant soldier. This is the man who created of the original X-Force, which consisted of him turning the New Mutants into soldiers.

Hope is someone who knows what it takes to survive, and she's taught that to her Five Lights. Those kids aren't innocents, not anymore, they're X-Men. The same goes for the Young X-Men who came to aid Cycopls (Rockslide, Dust, and Anole). Anyone who knows the history of these kids knows that they've seen their share of warfare. Hell, Dust nearly killed Exodus nearing Messiah Complex (where all of the New X-Men proved themselves worthy of fighting alongside their older counterparts by easily taking down Mr. Sinister's Marauders).

Cyclops knew what he was doing standing my those kids, and so did they. Anyone who hasn't read the Generation Hope tie-in to Schism should (that is, if you care to read Schism at all) as it shows the younger mutants opinions on the fight. They WANT to stand by Cyclops, Wolverine just takes the choice away from them because he wants to stand on a pedestal and claim the "higher road" (I don't like having to say that, because it's not Wolvie I blame, it's Jason Aaron).

Posted by ReVamp

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@ReVamp: The thing is, Wolverine has historically not been the children's advocate Aaron is making him out to be. In Kitty Pryde's own words, he taught her to use a sword before she was old enough to wear a bra. And this was before the entirety of the mutant race was in danger of being wiped off the face of the earth.

And let's be entirely honest here, the kids that Wolverine wanted not to fight have already seen their share of combat. Hope Summers is far from an "innocent" child. She was raised in an apocalyptic future by Cable, the ultimate mutant soldier. This is the man who created of the original X-Force, which consisted of him turning the New Mutants into soldiers.

Hope is someone who knows what it takes to survive, and she's taught that to her Five Lights. Those kids aren't innocents, not anymore, they're X-Men. The same goes for the Young X-Men who came to aid Cycopls (Rockslide, Dust, and Anole). Anyone who knows the history of these kids knows that they've seen their share of warfare. Hell, Dust nearly killed Exodus nearing Messiah Complex (where all of the New X-Men proved themselves worthy of fighting alongside their older counterparts by easily taking down Mr. Sinister's Marauders).

Cyclops knew what he was doing standing my those kids, and so did they. Anyone who hasn't read the Generation Hope tie-in to Schism should (that is, if you care to read Schism at all) as it shows the younger mutants opinions on the fight. They WANT to stand by Cyclops, Wolverine just takes the choice away from them because he wants to stand on a pedestal and claim the "higher road" (I don't like having to say that, because it's not Wolvie I blame, it's Jason Aaron).

  1. No, he hasn't.
  2. After she was kidnapped by Ogun, I believe. Not to mention self defense is okay, whilst killing is not, that's kind of how he goes about it.
  3. Not Gen-Hope. Still doesn't mean they should endanger themselves.
  4. Never said she was. Not talking about her.
  5. Again... Not her.
  6. She hasn't taught them anything, they don't have experience, they're normal kids and they should keep their innocence as best as they can, without being forced to have to sacrifice their lives.
  7. They have, but they shouldn't.
  8. Dude, how the f**k can you grab a fourteen year old girl, tell her to kill people and still be morally right? He knew what he was doing, but they felt obligated to do it and he kind of took advantage of that.
  9. I have read Gen Hope on Schism as well as Schism (except for the first issue tie in with Schism, if there are two out, I only read the most recent one).
  10. They WANT to, but their f**king kids. Y'know, it like a kid wanting a playstaion 3 and a 360 and a Wii all at once. They don't understand some stuff.
  11. They should have the choice in the first place. Let the X-Men do it. He doesn't want to take the high road though, he's doing what he feels is right.
Edited by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp:

1. So you agree it's only a recent development that is coming across as the writer forcing his views onto a character where they don't fit?

2. Any way you slice it, Wolverine taught Kitty to be a fighter. He's taught MANY children how to fight (look at Whedon's run after Danger rebels, Wolverine becomes a one-man danger room for the students to face off against).

3. We saw Idie take out a group of trained Hellfire henchmen on her own, and the whole team took on Kenji when he was out of control. They're whole lives are danger, they're mutants in a world that hates and fears them. They may be new, but they're aware of what they have to face. Hope may be young, but she knows how to lead, she can get her Lights through combat.

4. So why does Wolverine object to her at least fighting? Or even having a say in the matter? I feel like Wolverine would know better.

5. Cable knew what the mutant race needed to do in order to survive, his teachings are what drive Hope. Cyclops is, oddly enough, becoming a lot like his son before him.

6. You serious? Hope hasn't taught the, anything? She taught them to use guns, taught them how to fight. Hell, now she's even teaching Nate Grey to fight.

7. You can't go pack on the past. These kids know how to fight, they know how to defend themselves and they're not suddenly going to forget all they've been through because Wolverine wants them to act like normal kids to make himself feel better (paraphrasing X-23 there).

8. He NEVER told her to kill. He told her to do what she felt she needed to do, and then she CHOSE to kill. He even took responsibility for the deaths, though Idie blatantly stated she didn't regret doing it. That sound like some normal, innocent 14 year old? Idie is long gone from innocence, she has been before she killed those men. How did he take advantage of it? They wanted to fight, and he agreed seeing he had very little option.

9. Then you know these kids know what they're getting into, but still wish to fight.

10. Worst.comparison.ever. :P

11. They ARE X-Men. You want Cyclops to defend Utopia alone? Or should he call upon the X-Men that are SCATTERED ACROSS THE GLOBE. He had to make due with what he had, and the kids volunteered to help him fight for what they believe in.

The biggest thing I take issue with is: whoever said anything about these the kids KILLING? Sure, Idie took out those Hellfire goons (and in the process saved both herself and numerous civilians) but the fight that Wolverine objects to is against a F**KING SENTINEL. It's a a machine, not a person. Is it dangerous? Hell yeah. They're not being sent out to assassinate threats to mutants (which is what Wolverine makes it out to be when he spouts off about how he killed so the kids wouldn't have to).

Posted by ReVamp

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@ReVamp:

1. So you agree it's only a recent development that is coming across as the writer forcing his views onto a character where they don't fit?

2. Any way you slice it, Wolverine taught Kitty to be a fighter. He's taught MANY children how to fight (look at Whedon's run after Danger rebels, Wolverine becomes a one-man danger room for the students to face off against).

3. We saw Idie take out a group of trained Hellfire henchmen on her own, and the whole team took on Kenji when he was out of control. They're whole lives are danger, they're mutants in a world that hates and fears them. They may be new, but they're aware of what they have to face. Hope may be young, but she knows how to lead, she can get her Lights through combat.

4. So why does Wolverine object to her at least fighting? Or even having a say in the matter? I feel like Wolverine would know better.

5. Cable knew what the mutant race needed to do in order to survive, his teachings are what drive Hope. Cyclops is, oddly enough, becoming a lot like his son before him.

6. You serious? Hope hasn't taught the, anything? She taught them to use guns, taught them how to fight. Hell, now she's even teaching Nate Grey to fight.

7. You can't go pack on the past. These kids know how to fight, they know how to defend themselves and they're not suddenly going to forget all they've been through because Wolverine wants them to act like normal kids to make himself feel better (paraphrasing X-23 there).

8. He NEVER told her to kill. He told her to do what she felt she needed to do, and then she CHOSE to kill. He even took responsibility for the deaths, though Idie blatantly stated she didn't regret doing it. That sound like some normal, innocent 14 year old? Idie is long gone from innocence, she has been before she killed those men.

9. Then you know these kids know what they're getting into, but still wish to fight.

10. Worst.comparison.ever. :P

11. They ARE X-Men. You want Cyclops to defend Utopia alone? Or should he call upon the X-Men that are SCATTERED ACROSS THE GLOBE. He had to make due with what he had, and the kids volunteered to help him fight for what they believe in.

The biggest thing I take issue with is: whoever said anything about these the kids KILLING? Sure, Idie took out those Hellfire goons (and in the process saved both herself and numerous civilians) but the fight that Wolverine objects to is against a F**KING SENTINEL. It's a a machine, not a person. Is it dangerous? Hell yeah. But they're not being sent out to assassinate threats to mutants (which is what Wolverine makes it out to be when he spouts off about how he killed so the kids wouldn't have to).

  1. No I didn't say that. I'm saying that there he has never come across this particular situation, but he has always taken a liking to somewhat protect younger X-Men.
  2. Fighting to protect themselves from a world that hates them. Doesn't mean they have to be sent on missions and whatnot.
  3. Not really, its different and Wolverine wants to stop it.
  4. Just cause I think she's an exception doesn't make him think she is. She's a kid, it doesn't matter to him.
  5. Don't know what you're trying to argue here.
  6. Please don't. She taught them for a bit, its nothing to what they should get in order to do what they do.
  7. What? The know it, how to fight and defend, doesn't mean they should risk their lives. X-23 also doesn't need to kill, but she's another exception, at least to logan, she was pretty much made to kill.
  8. No, he knew full well she would've killed, she pretty much didn't know what to do, kind of collapsed under pressure and let her powers run wild.
  9. They might know it but they're KIDS.
  10. IKR?
  11. Wolverine and Scott could take it alone, Wolverine said so himself. They shouldn't risk the kids lives just because of that. Worst case scenario is Utopia getting some damage. A piece of Land vs the kids' lives? Please. Not to mention that this battle was of such a difficult that the kids WOULD die. Lets not forget that because it was said explicitly.
Posted by One_Eye

@ApatheticAvenger:

@ReVamp said:

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@ReVamp:

1. So you agree it's only a recent development that is coming across as the writer forcing his views onto a character where they don't fit?

2. Any way you slice it, Wolverine taught Kitty to be a fighter. He's taught MANY children how to fight (look at Whedon's run after Danger rebels, Wolverine becomes a one-man danger room for the students to face off against).

3. We saw Idie take out a group of trained Hellfire henchmen on her own, and the whole team took on Kenji when he was out of control. They're whole lives are danger, they're mutants in a world that hates and fears them. They may be new, but they're aware of what they have to face. Hope may be young, but she knows how to lead, she can get her Lights through combat.

4. So why does Wolverine object to her at least fighting? Or even having a say in the matter? I feel like Wolverine would know better.

5. Cable knew what the mutant race needed to do in order to survive, his teachings are what drive Hope. Cyclops is, oddly enough, becoming a lot like his son before him.

6. You serious? Hope hasn't taught the, anything? She taught them to use guns, taught them how to fight. Hell, now she's even teaching Nate Grey to fight.

7. You can't go pack on the past. These kids know how to fight, they know how to defend themselves and they're not suddenly going to forget all they've been through because Wolverine wants them to act like normal kids to make himself feel better (paraphrasing X-23 there).

8. He NEVER told her to kill. He told her to do what she felt she needed to do, and then she CHOSE to kill. He even took responsibility for the deaths, though Idie blatantly stated she didn't regret doing it. That sound like some normal, innocent 14 year old? Idie is long gone from innocence, she has been before she killed those men.

9. Then you know these kids know what they're getting into, but still wish to fight.

10. Worst.comparison.ever. :P

11. They ARE X-Men. You want Cyclops to defend Utopia alone? Or should he call upon the X-Men that are SCATTERED ACROSS THE GLOBE. He had to make due with what he had, and the kids volunteered to help him fight for what they believe in.

The biggest thing I take issue with is: whoever said anything about these the kids KILLING? Sure, Idie took out those Hellfire goons (and in the process saved both herself and numerous civilians) but the fight that Wolverine objects to is against a F**KING SENTINEL. It's a a machine, not a person. Is it dangerous? Hell yeah. But they're not being sent out to assassinate threats to mutants (which is what Wolverine makes it out to be when he spouts off about how he killed so the kids wouldn't have to).

  1. No I didn't say that. I'm saying that there he has never come across this particular situation, but he has always taken a liking to somewhat protect younger X-Men.
  2. Fighting to protect themselves from a world that hates them. Doesn't mean they have to be sent on missions and whatnot.
  3. Not really, its different and Wolverine wants to stop it.
  4. Just cause I think she's an exception doesn't make him think she is. She's a kid, it doesn't matter to him.
  5. Don't know what you're trying to argue here.
  6. Please don't. She taught them for a bit, its nothing to what they should get in order to do what they do.
  7. What? The know it, how to fight and defend, doesn't mean they should risk their lives. X-23 also doesn't need to kill, but she's another exception, at least to logan, she was pretty much made to kill.
  8. No, he knew full well she would've killed, she pretty much didn't know what to do, kind of collapsed under pressure and let her powers run wild.
  9. They might know it but they're KIDS.
  10. IKR?
  11. Wolverine and Scott could take it alone, Wolverine said so himself. They shouldn't risk the kids lives just because of that. Worst case scenario is Utopia getting some damage. A piece of Land vs the kids' lives? Please. Not to mention that this battle was of such a difficult that the kids WOULD die. Lets not forget that because it was said explicitly.

1. Even if Logan likes to protect the young members it would be pretty foolish of him to think that there isn't going to come a time for them to fight. That's just what X-Men do be them young or old.

2. If Logan didn't believe that Kitty couldn't handle herself then he wouldn't have taken her under his wing in the first place. With that said, being sent on missions is what the X-Men do. That's just it. hat's what superhero teams do. If there's a threat looming or a menace that needs to be dealt with then a team is deployed to go and take care of the aforementioned threat in as efficient a manner as possible.

3. How's is Hope leading the Five Lights different? WHAT is it different from exactly? Hope may not be my favorite character but reading the better issues focusing on her, there girl can lead and the Five Lights can handle themselves. Why does Logan want to stop them from fighting? His desire to stop them from fighting shows an overall lack of trust and confidence in them as both friends and teammates.

4. Sounds like Logan needs to reevaluate his entire outlook on the X-Men in general.What was Jubilee doing on their team all these years then?

5. He's stating that Hope can take care of herself. She's been trained by one of the mot competent and talented soldier to ever grace the time-stream. She's survived being chased through various timelines by a crazed Bishop, Brood encounters, and even showed that she was able to patch Cable up when he was all banged up and battered.

6. Hope has taught the Five Lights ow to function as a team and how to cope without the use of powers should such an occurrence take place.

7. So I guess that means that just because the senior members of the X-Men know how to fight and kill then they shouldn't do so even if there's no other way, huh? All for the sake of Logan wanting to feel better about himself? That's pretty self-absorbed.

8. She didn't let her powers run wild she did what she felt was best. Simple as that.

9. The original First Class was kids when they first took on Magneto as their first mission as an actual team.

10. Avenger is right, that is really a bad comparison.

11. So just because Logan said that they can take the Sentinel then they can do it, huh? Also, the kids would die because Logan said so? Seems to me that he was speaking out of desperation more so than using actual facts and giving the team SOME form of credit.

Yeah, Wolverine objects to KILLING so much that he's going to blow up Utopia. Yeah, that's who we want leading the fledgling mutant race is a guy who is willing to blow up the homeland of his own people just for the sake of being, right? That's petty and selfish. That's all there is to it.

Edited by ApatheticAvenger

@One_Eye: Agreed on all points, thanks for the support.

Again, I don't blame Wolverine as a character for any of this (and not just because I like Wolverine), I see it all as a result of bad writing on the part of Jason Aaron. I don't think for one second that Wolverine would honestly threaten to blow up his home, the home of hundreds of his people, to prove a point. It'll destroy this one sentinel, but Cyclops point that there are many more sentinels out there is very valid. Wolverine would know that (if he were written by a better writer).

The X-Men have defended Utopia from many a worse invasion in the past (Xarus' vampire army, Norman Osborn during Dark Reign, Bastion's nimrods) so it is clear that Utopia is a serious tactical advantage to them. Yet Wolverine, a veteran of more wars than most men alive and a master of combat, would blow up Utopia to prove a point and destroy a single sentinel? I call bull-s**t.

Posted by One_Eye

@ApatheticAvenger: Hey, it's np. I'm just sick of all the Cyke-hate. As for Wolverine or rather let me rephrase that, as for fictional characters, there's a time when one has to make segregation of both character and writer. What's the point of destroying your home in order to kill one soldier? Not even a general, just a grunt. As for Jason Aaron, I believe he may very well be Wolverine's Matt Fraction or to an even greater extent, Chris Claremont. A writer who loves a character but relegates other characters to the background at the expense of their pet character. I mean seriously, the "Jean Grey Institute for Higher Learning...?"

Utopia has definitely seen far worse threats, though, the x-factor is that there are hardly any veteran x-men around. So yeah....I call shenanigans as well.

Edited by Timandm

@Edgeworth_11 said:

Emma is being written better these days. Her and Scott stay together but Namor in there is interesting too. Lets wait and see what happens with this. I have a feeling Emma will be at her best again soon. But I think she is awesome still. She was a total bitch to Sue Storm in the adjectiveless X-men about how all the women love Scott but none love Reed lol

I'd love to read that... was that a special story arc or some such thing?

@One_Eye: Regarding Wolverine's new outlook on children fighting... I thought that was incredibly difficult to swallow at first. But, apparently, this new attitude is a result of what he's currently going through in the Wolverine series. He was sent to Hell, literally, by people who wanted revenge on him. They KNEW he would escape from hell and come after them... They put a group of people in his path to try and stop him... He killed all five of them, and the ones who orchestrated the event KNEW Wolverine would kill all five of them... Afterwards, he learns that all of of those that he killed were

HIS CHILDREN that he never knew he had.

After, he buries them all, he goes off into the wilderness, to a cliff and repeatedly climbs the cliff only to throw himself off.. He's tortured by what he just did. In light of what he just went through, it's not that far fetched to think he could have a new outlook on the younger members of the X-Men community getting involved in fighting and, in particular, killing... So, you have to cut him some slack there...

Posted by Edgeworth_11

@Timandm: Its the current arc on the adjectiveless X-men. They are teaming up with FF (Reed, SUe, Thing and Doom). They are on a rescue mission to save a former lover of Scott and EMma is totally not happy about it, even going as far as saying this is why she mind wipes all her ex or something to that affect it was hilarious lol

Sue later tried to ease Emma, but Emma wouldnt have it, saying Reed is undesirable to any other women so Sue has no idea wat Emma has to go through to fight off the women in Scotts life lol

Posted by ssejllenrad

Sooooo.... Schism not only broke the X-Men in two but it also broke the fanbase in two?

Edited by Timandm

@Edgeworth_11 said:

@Timandm: Its the current arc on the adjectiveless X-men. They are teaming up with FF (Reed, SUe, Thing and Doom). They are on a rescue mission to save a former lover of Scott and EMma is totally not happy about it, even going as far as saying this is why she mind wipes all her ex or something to that affect it was hilarious lol

Sue later tried to ease Emma, but Emma wouldnt have it, saying Reed is undesirable to any other women so Sue has no idea wat Emma has to go through to fight off the women in Scotts life lol

OOOH! "Adjectiveless" X-Men. LOLOL!!! I didn't get that. I was thinking, "What an odd name for a title..." YES! I know what you're talking about now.

It's comments like this that make one fall in love with Emma over and over again. LOL!

.

@ssejllenrad said:

Sooooo.... Schism not only broke the X-Men in two but it also broke the fanbase in two?

You could be right about that... If so, the writers may have been as successful as they were hoping...

Posted by Doveland
@ReVamp: What annoyed me is that, during Second Coming, Scott was so intent on protecting Hope Summers that he didn't care about Cable or the X-Force not being able to get back through the sphere. 
 
Then Schism #4 comes around and he's perfectly content with letting Hope stand up to that mega Sentinel? 
 
You and I both know Hope could absolutely MURDER that thing if she was pushed over the edge, but that was just odd. I'm with Wolvie. The kids should know how to defend themselves, yes, but he doesn't want to turn every child into a soldier. That's not how children are supposed to be brought up. 
 
It's Scott's duty to defend the mutant race, not the kids'. Take care of your own responsibilities, Summers.
Posted by Edgeworth_11

@Timandm said:

@Edgeworth_11 said:

@Timandm: Its the current arc on the adjectiveless X-men. They are teaming up with FF (Reed, SUe, Thing and Doom). They are on a rescue mission to save a former lover of Scott and EMma is totally not happy about it, even going as far as saying this is why she mind wipes all her ex or something to that affect it was hilarious lol

Sue later tried to ease Emma, but Emma wouldnt have it, saying Reed is undesirable to any other women so Sue has no idea wat Emma has to go through to fight off the women in Scotts life lol

OOOH! "Adjectiveless" X-Men. LOLOL!!! I didn't get that. I was thinking, "What an odd name for a title..." YES! I know what you're talking about now.

It's comments like this that make one fall in love with Emma over and over again. LOL!

.

@ssejllenrad said:

Sooooo.... Schism not only broke the X-Men in two but it also broke the fanbase in two?

You could be right about that... If so, the writers may have been as successful as they were hoping...

Yes that was it exactly. I am enjoying that arc and there are some LOL moments :D

Edited by ApatheticAvenger

@Doveland: Sure, Cyclops was very hesitant to let her fight at first because, well, she's his son's adoptive daughter and holds the key to the future of their people. The reason he's is okay with Hope fighting now would be because he's seen what she is capable of, and because she has pretty much been demanding that she be able to fight regardless of Scott's opinion on the matter.

You are right that the children shouldn't have to be brought up as soldiers, but they simply fact of the matter is that they need to be. Mutants live in a world that is constantly trying to kill them off, and they're already an endangered species. Cyclops was right, the luxury of anyone being a noncombatant is nonexistent. This is the hand that the mutant race has been dealt. Cable always understood that, even before M-Day, and now so do both Hope and Cyclops.

Also, while it is indeed Cyclops' duty to defend his people, you really expect him to do it alone? He couldn't take down the sentinel alone, and neither could Wolverine with help from X-Club, it's just not a possibility. Those may have been kids, but they're POWERFUL kids (especially Hope and Zero) and with Cyclops leading them they would have been able to take that sentinel down with no casualties (it would go even better is Wolverine stood with them).

Posted by Timandm

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@Doveland: Sure, Cyclops was very hesitant to let her fight at first because, well, she's his son's adoptive daughter and holds the key to the future of their people. The reason he's is okay with Hope fighting now would be because he's seen what she is capable of, and because she has pretty much been demanding that she be able to fight regardless of Scott's opinion on the matter.

You are right that the children shouldn't have to be brought up as soldiers, but they simply fact of the matter is that they need to be. Mutant-kind lives in a world that is constantly trying to kill them off, and they're already an endangered species. Cyclops was right, the luxury of anyone being a noncombatant does is nonexistent. This is the hand that the mutant race has been dealt. Cable always understood that, even before M-Day, and now so do both Hope and Cyclops.

Also, while it is indeed Cyclops' duty to defend his people, you really expect him to do it alone? He couldn't take down the sentinel alone, and neither could Wolverine with help from X-Club, it's just not a possibility. Those may have been kids, but they're POWERFUL kids (especially Hope and Zero) and with Cyclops leading them they would have been able to take that sentinel down with no casualties (it would go even better is Wolverine stood with them).

To add to this...

During Second Coming Cyclops was also more protective of Hope because she was the First Mutant born after the decimation... She was the ONLY ONE; the ONLY NEW MUTANT ON THE ENTIRE PLANET... Now things are changed. There are the five lights. Mutants are being born again (as evidenced in one of the Generation Hope stories where Hope and the Lights helped a baby Mutant be born)

Edited by ApatheticAvenger

@Timandm: Exactly. Cyclops has had to sacrifice Xavier's dream (which he defended and stood for above all others since he was 16 years old) in the wake of M-Day to follow his own vision, the very survival of his race. Hope represents their future.

Posted by lorex

I just fine Wolverine's leading the charge against Cyclops as the moral center of the X-Men to be a bit laughable. He has the most checkered past of all the X-Men and yes I am including Magneto and Namor on that list. Admitadily some of that time he was under others control but he had been around for over a century and has always been depicted as being ready, willing and able to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Case in point he is currently running his pwn private death squat on the side. That he would object so much to Cyclops telling Oya to use her powers as she thought best is laughable. Yes that scene was poorly written and very contrived to spark the conflict between Cyclops and Wolverine, but whats worse is until this Schism idea made its way onto paper Wolverine would be more likely to assist young mutants get ready for combat than be to one to want to wrap them up in cotton to protect them. I am not saying there has never been conflict between Scott and Logon because over the years there has been, mostly over Jean and to tell the truth the idea of a relationship between Logon and Jean is most an invention of the fans over the years with fuel dumped on it in various side stories and alternate histories. If you go back the actual comics from the time Jean and Scott were together and later married, Jean was in love with Scott, she may have been attracted somewhat to Logon but nothing ever happened. He was second best, then just like now. In my opinion this whole schism within the X-Men is a very contrived way to push Wolverine further into the spotlight and advance the transformation of Wolverine from the independent rogue that most fans have followed over the years into the Hugh Jackman version of Wolverine that more reccient writers (Aaron I am talking about you) seem to favor.

Posted by ReVamp

@ssejllenrad said:

Sooooo.... Schism not only broke the X-Men in two but it also broke the fanbase in two?

I've been a Cyclops fan long before Regenesis, or House of M for that matter, or Utopia's horrible writing. Not going to stop now.

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@Doveland: Sure, Cyclops was very hesitant to let her fight at first because, well, she's his son's adoptive daughter and holds the key to the future of their people. The reason he's is okay with Hope fighting now would be because he's seen what she is capable of, and because she has pretty much been demanding that she be able to fight regardless of Scott's opinion on the matter.

You are right that the children shouldn't have to be brought up as soldiers, but they simply fact of the matter is that they need to be. Mutants live in a world that is constantly trying to kill them off, and they're already an endangered species. Cyclops was right, the luxury of anyone being a noncombatant is nonexistent. This is the hand that the mutant race has been dealt. Cable always understood that, even before M-Day, and now so do both Hope and Cyclops.

Also, while it is indeed Cyclops' duty to defend his people, you really expect him to do it alone? He couldn't take down the sentinel alone, and neither could Wolverine with help from X-Club, it's just not a possibility. Those may have been kids, but they're POWERFUL kids (especially Hope and Zero) and with Cyclops leading them they would have been able to take that sentinel down with no casualties (it would go even better is Wolverine stood with them).

They need to know how to, they don't need Cyclops to throw them at the Sentinel.

Posted by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp: Throw them? We both know that's not what happened. He didn't drag them there and order them to fight. Utopia was in trouble, Cyclops was standing alone to defend it, the kids volunteered to support him, he accepted.

Posted by ReVamp

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@ReVamp: Throw them? We both know that's not what happened. He didn't drag them there and order them to fight. Utopia was in trouble, Cyclops was standing alone to defend it, the kids volunteered to support him, he accepted.

It was immoral to accept it. But this discussion is beside the point, because we obviously disagree about the morality of allowing teenagers to risk their lives and die in pointless battles.

Posted by VesKaGan

Wait... in comics, teenagers have always been in the "front line" risking their lives. Its exactly what the O5 did. But all of a sudden thats immoral? Just because Wolverine has recenty taken this point of view?

Posted by ReVamp

@VesKaGan said:

Wait... in comics, teenagers have always been in the "front line" risking their lives. Its exactly what the O5 did. But all of a sudden thats immoral? Just because Wolverine has recenty taken this point of view?

It is common, I like it, but it is immoral and if we're talking about the morality of it IRL (taking into account powers, experience and the like of course) it still immoral.

Don't get me wrong, I love New X-Men and they need a new title, but it doesn't stop it from being immoral.

Edited by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp: So you must really hate Professor Xavier, and the idea of the X-Men in general since from the very beginning that's what they've been. Sure, they original X-Men grew from teenagers to adults, but the team has always had teenage members (starting with Kitty, then Jubilee, Armor, Pixie etc) that went with them on missions.

Posted by ReVamp

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@ReVamp: So you must really hate Professor Xavier, and the idea of the X-Men in general since from the very beginning that's what they've been. Sure, they original X-Men grew from teenagers to adults, but the team has always had teenage members (starting with Kitty, then Jubilee, Armor, Pixie etc) that went with them on missions.

Never said I hated them, I actually prefer teenageed protagonists in comics, like the Teen Titans. I'm just saying that, when it is put in presepctive, it is immoral. Didn't say I didn't like it.

Posted by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp: Do you normally enjoy things that you also consider immoral? Sounds a little conflicted. j/k

Look, in real life I oppose the practice of using soldiers as much as the next Amnesty International member (my best friend and I run the student chapter on our campus), but this ISN'T the real world we're talking about here.

Posted by ReVamp

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@ReVamp: Do you normally enjoy things that you also consider immoral? Sounds a little conflicted. j/k

Look, in real life I oppose the practice of using soldiers as much as the next Amnesty International member (my best friend and I run the student chapter on our campus), but this ISN'T the real world we're talking about here.

LOL.

I disagree though, I'm applying RL morals to the world of Comic books. If you're not then we're discussing different things. In Comic book worlds there are 16 year olds running everywhere, doesn't mean I don't think its immoral. They might see it as ok inside comic book world so they can actually sustain the titles, but I don't.

Edited by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp: I understood what you're doing, I'm just giving my two cents that I think it's a pointless exercise. Comic books are meant to be displaced from reality, they're NOT REAL, that's part of the point of what they are. Ergo, you have to look at them from a very different moral perspective.

Posted by ReVamp

@ApatheticAvenger:

Not when the moral point is brought up. When Wolverine brought it up, it allowed me to opinionate on the topic from his perspective, which is realistic.

Edited by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp: But his opinion ISN'T realistic, don't you see? He wants to think that these kids are capable of being normal, playing with dolls and such (his lines to Idie which were followed by her saying that she lost her doll after she was almost burned alive for being a witch).

They're not normal, they never will be. They're mutants, born with supernatural abilities that make them hated and feared. From the moment of their birth they were destined to be hunted like animals by people who would see them exterminated.

Cyclops understands this, but for some reason Jason Aaron is writing that Wolverine doesn't. Why? Because he wants to impose his own morality onto a character where it doesn't make sense. This is bad writing at it's finest.

Posted by ReVamp

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@ReVamp: But his opinion ISN'T realistic, don't you see? He wants to think that these kids are capable of being normal, playing with dolls and such (his lines to Idie which were followed by her saying that she lost her doll after she was almost burned alive for being a witch).

They're not normal, they never will be. They're mutants, born with supernatural abilities that make them hated and feared. From the moment of their birth they were destined to be hunted like animals by people who would see them exterminated.

Cyclops understands this, but for some reason Jason Aaron is writing that Wolverine doesn't. Why? Because he wants to impose his own morality onto a character where it doesn't make sense. This is bad writing at it's finest.

They're really not unrealistic though. He doesn't think they can be normal, he just thinks they don't have to go into battle. They will never be normal, but it doesn't mean that they have to risk their lives unnecessarily.

Posted by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp: I don't know, it seems like he really wants them to be normal. Why else would he go out of his way to get Idie a doll (that she didn't seem to care about)? In my opinion that's why he's opening the new institute, to try and make them feel like normal kids. That, or he just wants to try and go back to the way things were ages ago before M-Day. Things will NEVER be the same though.

Posted by SC

Have not read comments, but agree with OP, or at least, don't disagree. Wolverine always seemed like a simple character to get to me, albeit one that often has inconsistent writing over last 20 years because of how so many different writers write him, and Schism? X-Men Franchise has been divided and split for ages now, its why its sales really, really suck, and why half the people I know defend Cyclops also throw Fraction under the bus even though Fraction has made so many big changes to the character as far as development and also why so many people actually almost literally think some of these fictional characters are real and saving other fictional characters and fictional races instead of heeding writers like Grant Morrisons words when he chastises fans for not getting that the characters are not real. 

Moderator
Posted by ReVamp

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@ReVamp: I don't know, it seems like he really wants them to be normal. Why else would he go out of his way to get Idie a doll (that she didn't seem to care about)? In my opinion that's why he's opening the new institute, to try and make them feel like normal kids. That, or he just wants to try and go back to the way things were ages ago before M-Day. Things will NEVER be the same though.

I don't really think so, no. He wants to allow them to become people who can protect themselves from those who hate them, without having to go attack them randomly. I mean, that wasn't well explained with "randomly" but you get the point.

@SC said:

Have not read comments, but agree with OP, or at least, don't disagree. Wolverine always seemed like a simple character to get to me, albeit one that often has inconsistent writing over last 20 years because of how so many different writers write him, and Schism? X-Men Franchise has been divided and split for ages now, its why its sales really, really suck, and why half the people I know defend Cyclops also throw Fraction under the bus even though Fraction has made so many big changes to the character as far as development and also why so many people actually almost literally think some of these fictional characters are real and saving other fictional characters and fictional races instead of heeding writers like Grant Morrisons words when he chastises fans for not getting that the characters are not real.

I agree, it isn't real, but I don't think that I'm making too much of an argument in a way it could be interperted as if they were real. Though while Fraction did change Cyclops, and the change itself wasn't bad, the way it was done was horrible.

Posted by SC
@ReVamp:  Oh, I didn't mean what you were doing. I mean cherry picking. Giving characters credit for what writers do, but then blaming the writer for screwing up the character for getting other aspects wrong. Fraction could write Toad as saving the entire 616 reality because of the greatest leadership, sexual skills, and display of pure manly super stubble alpha male macho man, cream of the crop, wait for that bass drop know your role jabroni, check into the smack town hotel, lalalalalala and so you know," I don't understand all this (creative character/writing) criticism aimed at the character, like that makes no sense, that ruined the character, or is too inconsistent or makes other characters look incompetent or forces other characters to be written out of character, cause FFS TOAD saved the entire Universe!! Check it yo. 
 
Having reality as a part of a story is not, I mean its inherent. When you write about characters that walk with two feet and have heads and emotions, I mean, your drawing parallels to reality. Its fair to interject arguments into stories from real life perspectives. Long before Schism and Aaron were there writers trying to impose their own understandings and ethical lessons to add weight and drama to stories. Such things have always been a part of the appeal of X-Men, especially, but Schism is just the catalyst needed for Regenesis which looks like the biggest okay, direction of the last 5 years of X-Men has not been working (financially) and so... 
Moderator
Posted by ReVamp

@SC said:

@ReVamp: Oh, I didn't mean what you were doing. I mean cherry picking. Giving characters credit for what writers do, but then blaming the writer for screwing up the character for getting other aspects wrong. Fraction could write Toad as saving the entire 616 reality because of the greatest leadership, sexual skills, and display of pure manly super stubble alpha male macho man, cream of the crop, wait for that bass drop know your role jabroni, check into the smack town hotel, lalalalalala and so you know," I don't understand all this (creative character/writing) criticism aimed at the character, like that makes no sense, that ruined the character, or is too inconsistent or makes other characters look incompetent or forces other characters to be written out of character, cause FFS TOAD saved the entire Universe!! Check it yo. Having reality as a part of a story is not, I mean its inherent. When you write about characters that walk with two feet and have heads and emotions, I mean, your drawing parallels to reality. Its fair to interject arguments into stories from real life perspectives. Long before Schism and Aaron were there writers trying to impose their own understandings and ethical lessons to add weight and drama to stories. Such things have always been a part of the appeal of X-Men, especially, but Schism is just the catalyst needed for Regenesis which looks like the biggest okay, direction of the last 5 years of X-Men has not been working (financially) and so...

Totally right. Though I do think that there are some cases when people rightly say that "X character was ruined by Y character". The example which is fresh in my head is Moon Knight. In the new series written by Bendis he is randomly just given Schizophernia (speeling :P)when he has never had that. Yes he created multiple personalities, but it was somewhat like Matches Malone, y'know. Giving him Schizophernia doesn't seem right, if its given without reason. Though... I haven't read it, I'm using the assumption that this is how it happened, because it seems to be the consensus.

Posted by SC
@ReVamp: Oh, there are tons of cases and examples of that happening with writers and characters, but sometimes, and this is where discretion is need, and the ability to discern preferences is particularly useful, sometimes such changes can mean more good than bad. Depends. I only know of one other Comicvine user I know for sure has read as much X-Books as me, and that's Xerox Kitty, that means like all Uncanny issues, and like all of Generation X, and New Mutants and so on. There are probably others as well. A writer like Grant Morrison is probably as well read from what I know of how he likes to approach writing and so compare how he writes Magneto? (everything is canon and it might be more interesting to take his really early silver age character roots and ignore a lot of stuff intended to make him a morally and ethically grey character by say CC) and so you almost get a bit of regression to go with how he is written. Morrison knows the continuity, he just choses to ignore it to give a more what he considers definitive story role. With Emma, he took what writers was doing in Gen X and adding a whole bunch on more (after a fan suggested the character to him!!) and so again, even more so than Magneto, we got changes to a character. Me personally? I liked what he did to Emma, but I didn't like what he did to Magneto. I have my reasons as well. Both subjective and objective.  
 
So Bendis changes characters a lot, he changed Ares, Noh Var and Sentry three of my favorite characters a lot, and he is aware of this, and he explains he does this to appeal to more fans. His sales numbers suggest he has the authority to do this as much as Morrison can/does. I agree with that creative change to Moon Knight being... eh, for me depends on how well the story is done. The reasoning helps a bit too. If Bendis wanted to give one of my fav characters in limbo such changes in order to write them in an otherwise awesome and good book that sold well and launched the character into superstardom ensuring other writers would get to write them, I'd be game. 
Moderator
Edited by ApatheticAvenger

@ReVamp: That's a good example of a bad choice for a character. Moon Knight has been established to have mental issues, but multiple personality disorder is quite a bit different from schizophrenia. The short and tall of it is that some writers are good for characters (Ed Brubaker for Cap and Daredevil, Morrison and Whedon for the X-Men) and some writers are quite bad for characters (Fraction for anything X-Men, Millar for the Authority). Writers deserve credit for making a good impact on an established character, while they also are going to receive disdain for making a bad impact.