By ReVamp 30 Comments
So good afternoon all, welcome back to the roundtables, Please all take a moment to introduce yourselves.
ReVamp : Good Afternoon (or Morning, whenever and wherever you're reading this). ReVamp here. No Smart intro.
Trodorne : Trodorne, you can call me Troy. Full time nerd, Comic store employee and and hopefully future designer of a real working Stargate.
Duo_Forbidden : Hello everyone! I'm Duo_forbidden!
So we are all here, let's open with the usual roundtable question, what have you all been reading recently?
§ Amazing Spider-man
§ G.I.Joe: Cobra
§ Northlanders, final issue
§ and Atomic Robo: Real Science Adventures.
I've been reading a lot of stuff lol. Just to name a few:
§ Justice League: Dark
§ Morning Glories
§ Amazing Spider-Man
§ Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man
§ Ultimate Comics: Ultimates
§ And I'm getting ready to read the Omega Effect story with Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Punisher.
RV : Well, unrelated to the topic at hand I've been reading Old School Spider-Man stories.
Of course, I've read a couple of weekly issues this week, which were a blast. More related to the topic, I've read Superboy and Legion Lost, both of which seem to be tying in nicely to the future second crossover DC seems to be planning, after The Night of Owls.
I can sympathize with all of you, maybe especially ReVamp as I am usually tracking back to older issues. So of course the post new 52 DC universe is undergoing its first contraction but also its first expansion. Any one has read any of the six titles which are getting shown the door?
TD : To be honest not really. I’ve read Blackhawks first two issues because of Mike Costa doing the series, as he is good with doing military stories but I stretched myself thin with the 52 and my other pulls to make it a priority.
DF : On that list of cancelled titles, I was reading Static Shock and BlackHawks. For shame :(
RV : Blackhawks and Men of War particularly, though Static had also caught my interest.
Men of War is the title I thought I'd like the most, since its first issue surprised be a lot and probably became my favorite #1 issue, or close to it. I just liked the whole military aspect it was bringing into the story, though it got overly confusing as the title progressed. Blackhawks was a title I thought had potential, but the story was all over the place. Characters should have been introduced more clearly and concisely in the first issue, before getting into the plot at hand. Static was the only title that surprised me when it got cut out though.
I was reading a couple myself, OMAC because I thought it was kind of fun, and Mister Terrific because I loved lampooning the science. So clearly DC missed the mark a little in these choices of titles, but do you think the first wave of cancelation was because of a poor vision by DC, bad creative work behind the titles, or just something that they had planned (as many titles are running into other ones)?
TD : They honestly knew that not all of them were going to be success. This much was obvious. They wanted to hit everything at once to get a good gauge to see what would sell and what would not. What they learned from the first wave that they are hoping to apply to the second one. At the same time it was a great chance for the company renew its ownership over old titles that have not really used in a long while. such as G.I.Combat.
RV : I think you didn't mention the most obvious. I don't think its lack of vision or creativity, though the latter definitely has an impact on what I think its most probably causing the drop. Which is sales. I say this without ever even looking at the sales numbers, mind you, but its probably a mixture of how much they are selling, how much the sales have dropped from the first issue and finally which of the titles are the most expendable. For example, they probably wouldn't shelve Legion Lost because the book is relevant to The Culling which I mentioned previously, and thus to do with the second wave of the DCnU -- more particularly The Ravagers, which I'm guessing will emerge from the results of the Crossover. Then again this is some speculation.
DF : I believe all of those reasons you listed contribute to why most of those books were cancelled. I also think it was just poor sales as well.
Most of the series that were cancelled showed up in other series, hinting that they will still be around in some way. Like Static appearing in Teen Titans or BlackHawks showing up in Mister Terrific.
RV : Mr. Terrific is getting the boot too, though Duo.
So out with the old and in with the new, there are six more titles coming ( Batman Incorporated, Dial H, Earth Two, Worlds' Finest, The Ravagers, and GI Combat.). Anyone thinking about picking up any of these new ones?
TD : Earth-Two just to see if ill make it as an ongoing pull. World Finest will be a spotter. outside of that ill have to play that by ear and gauge if i want to read it or not. Mainly im excited for HE-MAN!
RV : Totally forgot Batman Incorporated was coming back... I mean, completely. Well, I'm a sucker for Alternate Universes, so I know I'll be reading Earth-Two, which will be doubly so if Batman ends up being Dick Grayson (which it could be, since Robinson did have his run on Grayson-era JLA). So I'm definitely interested in that, though I don't know what I can say about it. Hopefully it'll be somewhat like the Ultimate Universe, in that people are different and not exactly how they are in other Earths and also that they're more willing to kill. Something that always get me is how reluctant people are to killing in the main DC Universe, I mean, I would never change that in Batman's character but I don't always enjoy the plot point where heroes have more trouble containing themselves than overcoming the challenge within that arc.
The Ravagers is another one I might read, since everyone knows I love the Teen Titans and Wildstorm. If Terra, Catlin and Beast Boy are all showing up in one book, I mean, who wouldn't get it if they were me? Though I was never big on Catlin, I'm hoping to see what they do with that and there have been already some hints as to what the book is going to be, since Ridge, another member of the team has appeared in Legion Lost. Keep in mind I don't like to read Solicits, so its quite possible everyone already knows what its about, lol.
I may get Batman Incorporated, or I may not. Depends where they're going with that I guess.
I'm happy these titles are being added though, I was having some troubles with post-New 52 DC I think.
DF : Out of the list, I'm really looking forward to reading World's Finest. I'm a huge fan of Power Girl and Huntress, and since they're both from what appears to be adarker version of Earth-2, it should be interesting. Though, like other fans, I too am not too fond of PG's new costume.
I'll also keep an eye on Earth-2 and Batman Inc Vol2.
RV : I may also try and see what the World's Finest ends up being. Depends on Power Girl's characterization, as Helena Wayne just isn't the same as Helena Bertinelli. It could be something quite interesting though, especially since its going to be an ongoing as opposed to a mini-series, which would probably be the more expected Medium for it.
Well He-Man was DC property way back when for a year or two, so in light of bringing back everything else they ever wrote, maybe they will get Prince Adam and the gang back together. Personally I am not s interested about this next wave except maybe to see how some dinosaurs get drawn. So quite a few people are doing the math and fueling the rumour mill and saying that the next wave will be in September. Any series in particular that you think might get cut, or ones that you want to see go, or ones you are afraid might go?
TD : In terms of rumors what might get cut. we might see a couple more series from the first way that might go. I don't want to speculate what might get cut in terms of the second wave, because due to the best base is how well to me the series can handle on its own. and I don't want to hint at something (G.I.Combat) as being something to be cut. cause im not biased like that. ..... *cough*
RV : Yes. I'm afraid of the fact that Hawkman and I, Vampire might get shown the door as well.
I like the former, mostly because I'm liking the new direction they gave Hawkman in terms of his powers and where he is settled in. I'm hoping that the writer will expand more on the properties of Nth Metal and what will change now that the Nth metal is inside Carter and he can mold it to his will.
I, Vampire is a title which I quite enjoyed the beginning and no one can deny that is Vampires have to be done they should be done like this. I'm not sure where the title is going or how, but its definitely kept my interest, though it was at risk of losing it somewhat when the protagonists decided to move to Gotham and especially at the first "death" that was seen. (Not because I think its permanent, but more because the person who committed the act is getting on my nerves)
Before I get side-tracked, I'd like to mention that the other two titles that are getting taken over by Liefeld, Grifter and Deathstroke (with the Third being Hawkman). Are two titles that I don't know exactly how I feel about. I absolutely love the two protagonists of the story, but I don't feel that the writing and direction has been interesting in either of them. I'm not sure whether I should be interested that Liefeld is taking over, since he might give them a new direction. I hate his art, it deterred me from Hawk and Dove, but maybe his co-plotting will do something for the books. Though I'm not sure how I'll live through his art on Deathstroke.
DF : Honestly? I would like to see Teen Titans go. That probably won't happen because of the number of titles that tie-in with the series (Superboy, The Ravengers), but it's a series that I fell out of. It's a bit too different from what I remember from the old Teen Titans before The New 52.
I hope that Justice League: Dark series continues. It seriously has a lot of potential, and the crossover with I, Vampire shows that. Maybe in the future, Demon Knights could join in as well.
RV : I respect Duo's opinion and while I definitely see what he's saying, I have full confidence that Lobdell will manage to the Titans well. If there is something that is irritating me with the series, it'd have to be the art. I mean, perhaps not the penciling, but the coloring is definitely getting on my nerves. That's just me being picky.
Personally I don't think I could survive in the new 52 world without both Soranik and Voodoo (though Voodoo hasn't been as good as it was at the beginning.) So seeing as DC has been opening up the vaults to grab old characters and old series, any that you would like to see in a third wave? The Creeper? Ragman? Doom Patrol? Outsiders?
RV : For the third wave in the new 52, I'd like to see a Dick Grayson led team. We have the young Teen Titans and the Older Adults, but the ones in the middle are nowhere to be seen. I know that due to fragile continuity issues a lot of them are not being touched by DC, such as Wally West, Donna Troy and Garth (aka Tempest), but there are still a lot of people that could join the team. I mean, Omen seems to have gone Evil, but maybe she'll be an option. Not to mention that there are many other characters that could join.
I'd also love a Nightwing/Red Robin or a Nightwing/Batgirl book, since I absolutely love the banter between those two characters. However, since that's not really feasible, I'll settle for a Bat-Family Team-Book (which there are rumors might happen), though I think that's just misinterpretation of Batman and Robin's future direction. (Damian seemingly wants to go after the ex-Robins).
DF : Going with what ReVamp wrote, I would like to see Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown come back. Since Barbara Gordon is still Batgirl, I wouldn't mind Cass being Blackbat and Stephanie going back as Spoiler. DC just need to bring those two back again. Like some suggested in other forums, I would love to see a Red Robin/BlackBat series. What could be even better is that Red Robin make an Outsider team with both Black Bat and Stephanie Brown.
And while Zatanna is with the Justice League: Dark, I would love to see a solo series of her.
TD : I know what you mean. I miss Soranik and the fact we have not seen her at all in this new 52 astounds me. but I’m sure she will be integral later on in a Green Lantern story arch in the future. for reasons they have not focused on her and Kyle’s previous relationship is beyond me. in terms of series coming back I was not much a reader of either series but since that is more of fans to decided but if i had to read one if it came back it would be Doom Patrol.
So one last question, is DC making a good decision or bad decision sticking at 52 titles as their base number of monthly titles?
RV : I'm not sure I like the fact the fact that they might be sticking to 52 titles, though it does have a certain organization to it that I'm definitely liking. I love how DC has split their titles into different groups, like the Batman titles, the Superman ones, the Dark, the Edge etc, but I'm not sure that having a definite base titles does anything for them in practice. Not to mention that it could hamper creativity and the process of creating good/bad stories if they have to limit themselves or force themselves upon a specific number of titles.
DF : I don't really have a problem with DC Comics keeping to just 52 titles. As of right now, I think DC is just trying to establish what kind of new universe The New 52 is compared to the old one, in terms of characterzation, history, and new backgrounds. With this apporach, I also think that DC is bidding their time before they annouce a major storyline event that will effect some of those titles. I do agree with what ReVamp wrote about how this approach could hamper the creativity aspect, also in sales because of how many titles are out there.
TD : Yes and no. I can see where it works really well and they have brought new interest in a series. but at the same time the changes they made were not enough compared to the changes in teams and characters made in previous titles before the 52. Like the Justice League and how it all but disbanded even though it was a great team and worked really well. But much of the details behind the madness ends up being corporate and thus hurts the comic universe more than helping it.
All right, thanks to all for participating to discuss the state of affairs at DC.
RV: Bye people, keep reading healthily and hating on Octopuses =P
DF : Thank you for having me! Hope to join you guys and gals next time on another roundtable!
TD : Thanks for having me again. "don't do drugs". and that was my community service for this week. Trodorne signing off.
OK great, but before signing off myself I turn it over to you the reader, what are you looking forward to in the second (or third) wave? Will you miss anything from the first wave? Or would you like to take us to task for anything else we said? Let us know in the comments below.