The ultimate crime


In terms of what is considered the absolutely worst crime in terms of morality there are usually two which top the list - murder and rape.  In terms of comics these play out differently.  Not wanting to make villains seem too depraved, rape is rarely something which a villain will partake in (and incidentally a hero is seemingly incapable of it, though logically speaking seeing as most people who rape are not strangers to their victims, it would not be unheard of).  Murder on the other hand is something which is bad but not as bad - consider how people regard Zsasz versus Doctor Light for instance.  This topic was raised recently in an issue of the Secret Avengers (#15) where Black Widow and a civilian get in a heated debate about the value of death, how this reflects differently on a superhero than it does to a nameless civilian.  Legally speaking killing somone even if they come back to life is still murder, but from a moral standpoint it gets more ambiguous (though it is still wrong.)  In terms of an ultimate crime though I would suggest another - and that is the manipulation or interference with an unborn child.  This has been used only sparingly in comic book fiction (or indeed in any fiction.)  I know of only three cases.  In the early 1990s in Wonder Woman (issues #55-56), in Elektra in the late 1990s (issues #6-8) and more recently in Green Lantern Corps (in the Sins of the Star Sapphire story arc.)   In each of these cases the threat to the unborn child is different - in the first Doctor Psycho was trying to see if he could kill a pregrant mother by corrupting the mind of the unborn child, in the second a divine being known as the Architect needed a new host and created one by impregnating a teenage girl and Doctor Strange and Elektra had to stop him, and in the third Kryb is trying to steal the unborn child of a Green Lantern Corps member and is willing to kill her in order to force an induced labour (though in two of these cases a doctor - Strange or Soranik was handily available.)
 
In a sense this crime is kind of related to the question of abortion, as it basically is involving another person in the decision of what happens to her womb and body.  I can say in terms of this question that I am pro-choice, but I am pro-choice in a reasonable way, in that the woman making the decision should be makeing the choice for the right reasons.  If the pregnancy could kill her is a good reason, if she is concerned about looking bad in a prom dress it is not as good.  In terms of my own personal stance on this as it applies to me, I could only see doing this under extreme circumstances.   The difference for me in terms of my own personal application of this and the universal one, is that if it is necessary for some cases then it has to be legal in all cases, but personally I feel that action have consequences and that those consequences have to be lived with.  But both sides of the question would inherently regard this as a crime, and a serious one.  Pro-choice would basically mean not having some other entity mess around with your pregnancy, while pro-life would also be interested for obvious reasons.  What is interesting for me is that the most recent writer of one of these stories (Geoff Johns) is someone who I would assume has a fairly left leaning mindset based on statements he makes in regards to topics such as xenophobia, but the response which this writing elicited in me was something a lot more along the lines of pro-life than pro-choice (not that such stances have to be defined by poltiical leanings.)

Why does this seem like such a creepy thing to do though?  It is more than just an aspect of being sort of a combination of both rape and murder, although in fact murder of a child is usually regarded as worse than the murder of an adult as their whole life is ahead of them.  Instead it is in my mind more of a violation of basic biological processes, that there is something in humans that respects the creative process of life once it has been enacted and decided upon (see this is kind of similar to the debate over abortion, in fact it could be considered to be a pro life argument.)   That is to say that in terms of life pregnancy (and conception) and birth are two of the major stages and the period in between is the source and application of many customs and beliefs.  In a universe where things such as mass murder, genocide, or even the destruction of entire solar systems is relatively commonplace it is therefore interesting to consider that an unborn child is still considered inviolable. 
23 Comments
23 Comments
Posted by cosmo111687

Laura Shapiro covers this topic in her show, Feminist Frequency: http://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency#p/u

It varies from example to example, but I don't really agree with her conclusion that the trope is a form of "terrorism" or an attack on women, though. That's taking it a bit too far. However, the video does contain a bunch of other examples across speculative science fiction.

Posted by RazzaTazz
@cosmo111687: Thanks for the link, I should have figured I wasnt the first one to think about this ...
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Posted by cyberninja

All hail feminism.

Posted by cattlebattle
@cyberninja: lol, so true
Posted by Alexander_Sparrow

morality varies drastically based on time and cultures back in the time before/during christ people were stoned to death just out of public display of anger during salem women branded "witches" were burnt/hanged (mostly burnt) even in ancient Sparta if an infant was seen unfit for life he was left in the wilderness to die alone so to respond to your earlier remark we as western culture consider the ultimate crime the violation of early life simply because it is taking away life from the defenseless such as an infant but that does not change fact that murder is still murder and that whether in an infant a 20 year old or a 70 year old

in a cosmic scale though one life is the equivalent of a pebble in a stream small and insignificant

Posted by Dracade102
@Alexander_Sparrow said:

morality varies drastically based on time and cultures back in the time before/during christ people were stoned to death just out of public display of anger during salem women branded "witches" were burnt/hanged (mostly burnt) even in ancient Sparta if an infant was seen unfit for life he was left in the wilderness to die alone so to respond to your earlier remark we as western culture consider the ultimate crime the violation of early life simply because it is taking away life from the defenseless such as an infant but that does not change fact that murder is still murder and that whether in an infant a 20 year old or a 70 year old

in a cosmic scale though one life is the equivalent of a pebble in a stream small and insignificant

Best comment this thread could ever dream of having. ^
Posted by Superguy0009e

im taking a class on morality and from what i can tell you a very simple version of morality:

If the action is bad, even if the consequences are good, the action cant be done.

So stuff like senseless killing, abortion, rape...all that is bad even if the intent is good

Posted by CATPANEXE
in comics i suppose, 
death is either final or you just come back from it (the latter more so and like a video game)
being raped is horrible and sticks with you in scars, but you aren't destroyed and you rebuild and move fore ward.
your child being killed however...you can never fix that.
Posted by Superguy0009e

@CATPANEXE: agreed

Posted by RazzaTazz
@cyberninja@cattlebattle:  
 
Either you guys are trying to be funny in which case I don't get it, or you are being serious in which case I don't see how anything I wrote was feminist, and being called a feminist is not as much an insult as you think it is, by the way.
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Posted by cattlebattle
@RazzaTazz said:
@cyberninja@cattlebattle:   Either you guys are trying to be funny in which case I don't get it, or you are being serious in which case I don't see how anything I wrote was feminist, and being called a feminist is not as much an insult as you think it is, by the way.
wasn't so much as an implication of an insult, as it was an observation, you do have a pension for writing blogs concerning the negative exposure women get in comics. Abortion and violence against women is synonamous with  advocates for women rights,  It should be synonymous with every human being but....what are you going to do. I thought it was a good read
Posted by Timandm

@RazzaTazz:

I'm sort of lost as to exactly what you're saying. Are you posing the question, "Why is the murder of a child, including an unborn one, consider the worst thing a villain could do? Especially in a comic universe where villains can eat star systems and what not?

Posted by SC
@cattlebattle said:
 Abortion and violence against women is synonamous with advocates for women rights,  It should be synonymous with every human being but....what are you going to do. I thought it was a good read
 
Erm, isn't that a stance? A personal subjective understanding and maybe not something to assume of other people? Abortion and violence against women is something which affects males as much just as abortion and violence against men affects woman, and thus  a person focuses and provides details where they think is relevant?  
 
Wait a minute, do you hate freedom? Oh my... I would have never have thought.. *smile* So really what your observation is that is focus and discretion in the same way a person talking about Galactus and his heralds will probably not talk about Jubilee when I mean... Galactus is a person, his heralds are persons and Jubilee is a person, and your a person and I'm a person and that person is a person and so I mean... why would you not talk about Jubilee being a Herald of Galactus... not that there is an implication or insult that they do not care or like Jubilee..(as a person) but perhaps why the assumption that said person isn't considering mentioning Jubilee, but just figures its not as relevant as the subject they are talking about? So it would be a projection to think they do not consider Jubilee worthy of being mentioned as a herald or relevant to Galactus, when it might just be a deliberate intellectual and considered choice?  
 
If abortion and violence against women is synonymous with you as being about humans (and the same with males) (which is the same as me) then there is no should? For us it simply is? It already is. 
Moderator
Posted by cattlebattle
@SC said:
@cattlebattle said:
 Abortion and violence against women is synonamous with advocates for women rights,  It should be synonymous with every human being but....what are you going to do. I thought it was a good read
 Erm, isn't that a stance? A personal subjective understanding and maybe not something to assume of other people? Abortion and violence against women is something which affects males as much just as abortion and violence against men affects woman, and thus  a person focuses and provides details where they think is relevant?   Wait a minute, do you hate freedom? Oh my... I would have never have thought.. *smile* So really what your observation is that is focus and discretion in the same way a person talking about Galactus and his heralds will probably not talk about Jubilee when I mean... Galactus is a person, his heralds are persons and Jubilee is a person, and your a person and I'm a person and that person is a person and so I mean... why would you not talk about Jubilee being a Herald of Galactus... not that there is an implication or insult that they do not care or like Jubilee..(as a person) but perhaps why the assumption that said person isn't considering mentioning Jubilee, but just figures its not as relevant as the subject they are talking about? So it would be a projection to think they do not consider Jubilee worthy of being mentioned as a herald or relevant to Galactus, when it might just be a deliberate intellectual and considered choice?   If abortion and violence against women is synonymous with you as being about humans (and the same with males) (which is the same as me) then there is no should? For us it simply is? It already is. 
1. I loathe freedom, I hate when people run around being all.....free and stuff
2. Jubilee being a herald of Glactus would be awesome squared
 
It is not synonymous with all human beings as a concern because obviously there is people that commit these acts. They are obviously not being helpful in avocating anything except rape ....and some people are just apathetic to the whole thing
Posted by SC
@Timandm said:

I'm sort of lost as to exactly what you're saying. Are you posing the question, "Why is the murder of a child, including an unborn one, consider the worst thing a villain could do? Especially in a comic universe where villains can eat star systems and what not?

Well, there is nothing personal when Galactus chows down on Ciegrim-7 (home to the Ciegrimites - Marvel canon fact #87 - They make the best Beer in the Universe - no joke ;)  
 
I consider the worse ultimate crime socks and sandals TBH. That and not doing what you can, relative to who you are. Sort of complacency. *nods* Speaking of which I need to go and write a book or story.. *smile* 
Moderator
Edited by SC
@cattlebattle said:

1. I loathe freedom, I hate when people run around being all.....free and stuff 2. Jubilee being a herald of Glactus would be awesome squared  It is not synonymous with all human beings as a concern because obviously there is people that commit these acts. They are obviously not being helpful in avocating anything except rape ....and some people are just apathetic to the whole thing

 
1. So do I, but only in how i perceive most peoples idea of freedom (compared to my own). Since you can't actually run around and be free, freedom is in your head. So freedom is really just when a person can think.  
2. I know right? Why would someone not mention Jubilee in a thread about Galactus and his heralds. I am not sure who this Glactus is though ;)  
 
It is synonymous with all human beings as a concern for me, because that is how I choose to view it, I think from your comment that it is safe to think you choose to view it that way as well, in that you think that is how things should be viewed? I acknowledge that this is not the reality though obviously. So I agree with your comments thereafter. I am just not sure how focus on subjects that appear to be centered on one gender, is an inherent admission that the person doing the focusing in a specific instance concedes extending those views to another gender? Objectively, arguments towards society can be made, and apathy can be argued when we do not acknowledge that there are differences both objectively and subjectively and naturally and societally constructed. This is sort of what this thread does, and what we are doing now, which true is not maybe as funny as feminist jokes, but probably? If enough people around the world, apply effort and thought as we are now, can actually make more of a difference. Its really just how much of a difference.  
 
This is why you should vote me Governor of Latveria. Natura abhorret a vacuo. Vote for SC 2012! 0_0
Moderator
Posted by cattlebattle
@SC said:
@cattlebattle said:


 1. So do I, but only in how i perceive most peoples idea of freedom (compared to my own). Since you can't actually run around and be free, freedom is in your head. So freedom is really just when a person can think.  2. I know right? Why would someone not mention Jubilee in a thread about Galactus and his heralds. I am not sure who this Glactus is though ;)   It is synonymous with all human beings as a concern for me, because that is how I choose to view it, I think from your comment that it is safe to think you choose to view it that way as well, in that you think that is how things should be viewed? I acknowledge that this is not the reality though obviously. So I agree with your comments thereafter. I am just not sure how focus on subjects that appear to be centered on one gender, is an inherent admission that the person doing the focusing in a specific instance concedes extending those views to another gender? Objectively, arguments towards society can be made, and apathy can be argued when we do not acknowledge that there are differences both objectively and subjectively and naturally and societally constructed. This is sort of what this thread does, and what we are doing now, which true is not maybe as funny as feminist jokes, but probably? If enough people around the world, apply effort and thought as we are now, can actually make more of a difference. Its really just how much of a difference.   This is why you should vote me Governor of Latveria. Natura abhorret a vacuo. Vote for SC 2012! 0_0
Yes, I agree, Some people are just born with imbalance not being able to tell whats considered socially right or wrong. Look at historical accounts, woman were raped and babies were thrown into rivers as such...these events were usually  perpetrated by ones who thought they were above others or others carried out wishes of said "ones" or God told them to do it...whatever thing is the same things still happen today. There is still some countries in the world that don't carry the views stated in the OP....its a shame really....like we once thought of people that lived thousands of years ago as cavemen and uncivilized, I'm sure future generations will think the same of us and our current state. I admitted to Razz and now to you it was a stupide remark, or it was stupid for me to agree with the remark
 
You don't want to be involved in the political system of Latveria in anyway I'd imagine, that place is under constant invasion by rock men and invisible women...very scary...lots of property damage...complaining citizens...missing shoes. Very stressful
Posted by cyberninja

@RazzaTazz said:

@cyberninja: @cattlebattle: Either you guys are trying to be funny in which case I don't get it, or you are being serious in which case I don't see how anything I wrote was feminist, and being called a feminist is not as much an insult as you think it is, by the way.

Wait what? It wasn't an insult or trying to be funny, in fact I didn't mean anything by it, hope that helps. This is getting too serious for my taste, if I knew someone would take my post the wrong way and think it was an insult I wouldn't have posted it. I have a feeling that THIS post I'm writing right now might also lead to yet another misunderstanding, so I will say this. I'm sorry if I said anything wrong mmmkay?

Posted by SC
@cattlebattle said:
Yes, I agree, Some people are just born with imbalance not being able to tell whats considered socially right or wrong. Look at historical accounts, woman were raped and babies were thrown into rivers as such...these events were usually  perpetrated by ones who thought they were above others or others carried out wishes of said "ones" or God told them to do it...whatever thing is the same things still happen today. There is still some countries in the world that don't carry the views stated in the OP....its a shame really....like we once thought of people that lived thousands of years ago as cavemen and uncivilized, I'm sure future generations will think the same of us and our current state. I admitted to Razz and now to you it was a stupide remark, or it was stupid for me to agree with the remark You don't want to be involved in the political system of Latveria in anyway I'd imagine, that place is under constant invasion by rock men and invisible women...very scary...lots of property damage...complaining citizens...missing shoes. Very stressful
 
I agree with your first bits, really well said. I wish I had time to write a proper agreement, you make some great points. Oh, well, personally I do not think it was a stupid remark, or your agreement with remark was stupid, like I thought it was funny, just sort of frivolous. Plus I know you and cyberninja's type of posts and your guys are what I consider smart comic fans. I think I wish, ideally it would be great to get more serious replies from you guys on such topics, because like you demonstrate above, you both make awesome points on serious topics. That being said, I am especially guilty of being/making frivolous, silly, non serious posts in most threads lmao. So I mean, like I said, its just an ideal.  
 
Then again, as a guy who constantly got mistaken for a girl by lots of posters because I like a lot of female characters like Rogue and Emma Frost and Nemi, and then asked by people how can I have such strong feminist views when I am a guy (and proud to be a guy) I can sympathize when people when they are labeled things for why/when they decide to focus attention (even if lightheartedly) but ultimately that is the best thing about being to clarify and be open about such complicated things, people usually end up agreeing *nods*  
 
Latveria has great bread and is good for corruption, etc great place. You get use to the rock men and invisible woman after a while. I mean, still better than living in a country with Tony Stark and Jessica Jones eh? Eh? *isn't sure what I mean by that* lol
Moderator
Posted by cattlebattle
@SC said:
@cattlebattle said:

 I agree with your first bits, really well said. I wish I had time to write a proper agreement, you make some great points. Oh, well, personally I do not think it was a stupid remark, or your agreement with remark was stupid, like I thought it was funny, just sort of frivolous. Plus I know you and cyberninja's type of posts and your guys are what I consider smart comic fans. I think I wish, ideally it would be great to get more serious replies from you guys on such topics, because like you demonstrate above, you both make awesome points on serious topics. That being said, I am especially guilty of being/making frivolous, silly, non serious posts in most threads lmao. So I mean, like I said, its just an ideal.   Then again, as a guy who constantly got mistaken for a girl by lots of posters because I like a lot of female characters like Rogue and Emma Frost and Nemi, and then asked by people how can I have such strong feminist views when I am a guy (and proud to be a guy) I can sympathize when people when they are labeled things for why/when they decide to focus attention (even if lightheartedly) but ultimately that is the best thing about being to clarify and be open about such complicated things, people usually end up agreeing *nods*   Latveria has great bread and is good for corruption, etc great place. You get use to the rock men and invisible woman after a while. I mean, still better than living in a country with Tony Stark and Jessica Jones eh? Eh? *isn't sure what I mean by that* lol
I am not a "smart comic book fan" or at least I try not be that way, I just am usually too lazy to type out a long post, lol, or I try to fit in with the status qoe around here which seems to be "less is more",so I'm sorry if I come off that way. Its cool I agree with you, having strong feminist views should not be limited to any gender. I just often see Razz ,making threads like this more often than not . I actually thought you were a girl..not for your love for female characters, but you often have a suspicious amount of knowledge about Twilight, I'm not saying those films are particularly movies aimed at women but females tend to like them more because of the love story...which isn't even accurate because men will love those movies...and not tell anybody due to being judged.....so I applaud you for that
 
Latveria does have good bread
Posted by SC
@cattlebattle said:
 but you often have a suspicious amount of knowledge about Twilight, I'm not saying those films are particularly movies aimed at women but females tend to like them more because of the love story...which isn't even accurate because men will love those movies...and not tell anybody due to being judged.....so I applaud you for that  Latveria does have good bread
 
lol, *smile* That probably more has to do with two of my best friends loving the books, but not liking the movies and well, you know how you tend to become an expert on things even if they don't really interest you? Just you talk to people who talk about things a lot? I think females like Twilight because Bella is projected as both being really normal and also really special, and also somewhat plain (those contradictions mirror peoples own contradictions they feel about themselves). Then everything around her, sort of reacts to her strongly, and she gets all his attention for not really doing anything. I mean, her blood just smells really good, and so this super powerful, super worldly, super mature, super hot, super rich and super deep guy/vampire falls for her for being nice and plain and... well thats just the start. Then Bella starts getting more control, she gets to decide, she is no longer in the position of vulnerability, she has people literally fighting over her.  
 
The thing is, this is basically the same as almost all movies aimed at male teenagers as well. All those ones with the normal high school guy who never actually does anything nice, or notable to prove he is nice, instead he is just contrasted against a really one dimensional jerk character and do we have to assume he is nice (even if he makes a bet/cheats/has a superficial perspective of beauty/puts his manhood in pies) and so said guy is projected as being really normal (relatable) and also really special (funny or caring in ways that the jerk jock guy isn't) and somewhat plain (physically) but then by the end of the movie, usually all attention is on them, and they have the power and choice as far as romance. So 'guys' love Twilight, they just love it when its a male character and their wish fulfillment fantasies are being pandered too.  With males though? There are so many of these types of movies now, that success is spread and split between. Twilight didn't/doesn't really have that much competition and so its success in hindsight is not that surprising.  
 
To me, for both males and females, the best love story there is, is Le fabuleux destin d'Amélie Poulain, The Expendable's and Willow. I agree that males will like movies for the love story in similar fashions. (they tend to get more choice/diversity as far as POV, since almost all movies have a romantic/love subplot of some sort) 
 
Oh, nothing wrong with being a smart comic book fan *smile* You don't need to make long posts/points to be one, I think your posts on the previous page just demonstrate that you have refined ideas and can integrate into various threads. Like the OP's blog is actually rather concise, given how many complex subjects/topics it covers. *nods*  
 
Was good talk *smile*
Moderator
Edited by Timandm

@SC said:

@Timandm said:

I'm sort of lost as to exactly what you're saying. Are you posing the question, "Why is the murder of a child, including an unborn one, consider the worst thing a villain could do? Especially in a comic universe where villains can eat star systems and what not?

Well, there is nothing personal when Galactus chows down on Ciegrim-7 (home to the Ciegrimites - Marvel canon fact #87 - They make the best Beer in the Universe - no joke ;) I consider the worse ultimate crime socks and sandals TBH. That and not doing what you can, relative to who you are. Sort of complacency. *nods* Speaking of which I need to go and write a book or story.. *smile*

Always you leave me with so much to think about...

Best beer in the Universe? And the Avengers didn't stop him?! SUP WIT DAT!? (Yes, that was my feeble attempt at using street vernacular)

Um...Where can I find a copy of this Marvel Canon list? This sounds like important information.

'not doing what you can' ... "The only thing necessary for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing."

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go destroy pictures of me with my European friends while they visited Disney World wearing a certain fashion faux Paus.

Posted by Nerx

Heavilly disagree with murder and rape - there are mutilation, torture and genocide