One of the most interesting comic book debates for me is whether Nightwing was actually raped by Catalina or not. While I have made my feelings quite clear on this incident in my review of that issue, it has in some ways for me always been like the case with Hank Pym, how one incident comes to define an issue within comics (in Pym's case it was spousal abuse) while mostly ignoring a lot of the other cases when it comes the issue. In terms of rape however, there have been two notable cases of either rape attempted rape since the reboot of the new 52, and neither of which has factored heavily into any discussions. Part of the ambiguity of the Nightwing scenario is that it was not exactly a clear case on whether it was rape or not (as for instance I do not believe it was.) So while it is not necessarily the case that it is of great importance to the story, it is still interesting that no one is discussing this issue, maybe because it is too vague. The first case is that of the love affair between Zeus and Hippolyta which resulted in the conception of Diana. Although they shared a consensual interest in one another Zeus was at the time posing as a regular human. This may not in fact be particularly different from a case of someone misrepresenting themselves in order to for instance have a one night stand, except in that case it is not a lie which betrays the fundamental aspect of one the interested sides. That is to say that its one thing to say put on some nicer clothes, but another thing altogether to use another body. this is actually similar in certain ways to the other case where Deadman wants to have physical intimacy with his girlfriend Dawn Granger and does so by possessing another man's body. In this case though it is the man that would be getting violated, after all he would have had no say in the matter of his sexual relations had Dawn actually allowed it to proceed. Of course the topic is a fairly heavy one and not one which is always easy to discuss, but only focusing on the on example may be doing it a disservice.
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This just made me think of the movie I saw last night. A strong rape scene occurred.
Deadman possessing someone to have sex is very not cool.
when did this happen?
He tried to borrow a guy's body so he could be with Dove physically in issue 2 or 3 of his new series and Dove was horribly offended.
It was issue 3 of Justice League Dark.
pretty creepy stuff...worth dumping a book over IMO
Understandable. I'm willing to stick with it, though, because it was meant to show the difficulty Deadman and Dove have in maintaining a relationship without the possibility of physical intimacy. So there was a purpose to it. But it's still disappointing that Peter Milligan took that route, especially since I've had high hopes that JLA: Dark would be my favourite book of the relaunch. (And, besides that, I'm loving Zatanna in that book.)
This just made me think of the movie I saw last night. A strong rape scene occurred.
Deadman possessing someone to have sex is very not cool.
when did this happen?
He tried to borrow a guy's body so he could be with Dove physically in issue 2 or 3 of his new series and Dove was horribly offended.
It was issue 3 of Justice League Dark.
pretty creepy stuff...worth dumping a book over IMO
Understandable. I'm willing to stick with it, though, because it was meant to show the difficulty Deadman and Dove have in maintaining a relationship without the possibility of physical intimacy. So there was a purpose to it. But it's still disappointing that Peter Milligan took that route, especially since I've had high hopes that JLA: Dark would be my favourite book. (And, besides that, I'm loving Zatanna in that book.)
Its understandable they would go with this direction for his character.
Really is Zatanna's book that good? What do you like about?
This just made me think of the movie I saw last night. A strong rape scene occurred.
Deadman possessing someone to have sex is very not cool.
when did this happen?
He tried to borrow a guy's body so he could be with Dove physically in issue 2 or 3 of his new series and Dove was horribly offended.
It was issue 3 of Justice League Dark.
pretty creepy stuff...worth dumping a book over IMO
Understandable. I'm willing to stick with it, though, because it was meant to show the difficulty Deadman and Dove have in maintaining a relationship without the possibility of physical intimacy. So there was a purpose to it. But it's still disappointing that Peter Milligan took that route, especially since I've had high hopes that JLA: Dark would be my favourite book. (And, besides that, I'm loving Zatanna in that book.)
Its understandable they would go with this direction for his character.
Really is Zatanna's book that good? What do you like about?
I am sorry guys but do you think you could just reply to each other and stop this quote tree?
This just made me think of the movie I saw last night. A strong rape scene occurred.
Deadman possessing someone to have sex is very not cool.
when did this happen?
He tried to borrow a guy's body so he could be with Dove physically in issue 2 or 3 of his new series and Dove was horribly offended.
It was issue 3 of Justice League Dark.
pretty creepy stuff...worth dumping a book over IMO
Understandable. I'm willing to stick with it, though, because it was meant to show the difficulty Deadman and Dove have in maintaining a relationship without the possibility of physical intimacy. So there was a purpose to it. But it's still disappointing that Peter Milligan took that route, especially since I've had high hopes that JLA: Dark would be my favourite book. (And, besides that, I'm loving Zatanna in that book.)
Its understandable they would go with this direction for his character.
Really is Zatanna's book that good? What do you like about?
I am sorry guys but do you think you could just reply to each other and stop this quote tree?
@difficlus: I like that the characters are human and flawed and yet they have to summon whatever talents they have in order to combat a serious threat that is greater than all of them. I also like the little instances of mad creativity - like a power plant that becomes sentient and threatens to melt down but then gets bored and decides not to. Zatanna is probably the strongest character out of all of them and rather than mope around and refuse to help (like Shade: The Changing Man) she goes right into the frey and confronts the Enchantress head on. I also think that the art is stunning and I like it's general creepy tone. Reminds me of one of my favourite musicians, Kate Bush. (can go on and on.)
Love potions kind of do exist to a degree. Alcohol is a great example. I'm both kidding and serious here. Everyone has heard of beer goggles. Getting a woman drunk so she finds you more attractive isn't all that different from a love potion if you really think about it. The intent is there.
I haven't read the issue in which this happens but from the few blogs and such I've read on it, it sounds no different from a person targeting someone who is vulnerable. Like after a painful break up or following the death of a loved one. People seeking to take advantage of someone in that state actually exist in real life. Pretty sad.
As if anyone would even consider raping Dick Grayson! If you want it, just ask - he'll most likely give it to you, free of charge. xD
Edit: I just realised that my joke, whilst humorous to myself, was actually quite disrespectful to a topic I take very seriously. I don't mean any disrespect.
@Pokeysteve: Well, targeting someone for sex who is heavily intoxicated is rape, so yeah, it is similar to a literal consideration of a "love potion." Anything that hampers or alters the ability for a victim to provide consent.
@Pokeysteve: Well, targeting someone for sex who is heavily intoxicated is rape, so yeah, it is similar to a literal consideration of a "love potion." Anything that hampers or alters the ability for a victim to provide consent.
Even if they're conscious and THEY initiate it? People, mostly guys, go to clubs and bars looking for that very scenario. It's a "love potion" pretty much anyone can get and in this society if you don't drink it then you're an outsider.
@Pokeysteve: Well, targeting someone for sex who is heavily intoxicated is rape, so yeah, it is similar to a literal consideration of a "love potion." Anything that hampers or alters the ability for a victim to provide consent.
Even if they're conscious and THEY initiate it? People, mostly guys, go to clubs and bars looking for that very scenario. It's a "love potion" pretty much anyone can get and in this society if you don't drink it then you're an outsider.
Yes, it's still rape if a girl gets intoxicated of her own volition. To say otherwise—"well she made herself an easy target"—is victim blaming, and just one step down from "well if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have dressed that way." This attitude is incredibly unhelpful because it satisfies the observer for "solving" the attack by saying "well that's why it happened" instead of focusing on the attacker and catching the actual rapist in your midst. Unfortunately some police have this attitude.
If a girl can't say no and you take advantage, that's rape. Nobody gets drunk with the expectation or desire to get raped. Not being "safe enough" does not make it acceptable for someone to have been raped. That'd be like saying "serves 'em right" to Bruce Wayne's parents for seeing a movie in the wrong side of town and walking down the wrong alleyway.
Dick was too physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted to resist. He said no, Tarantula kept at it. He was raped. Just because the victim stops resisting doesn't mean it's not rape, it just means they've either accepted the futility of their situation, or are simply too tired to continue resisting.
@fodigg: I think we're talking about two different scenarios here.
Or maybe level of intoxication.
Maybe. I'll use Bob as an example. Bob wants to get laid so he goes to a bar. He spots an obviously drunk woman and starts up a conversation. Suffering from Beer Goggle she takes a liking to him and brings him back to her place where they sleep together. Now she may not remember much the next morning but that is by no means an assault. If it was there would be need to be millions of arrests weekly across the globe. I actually forgot my point and where I was going with this =/ that sucks.
I agree with FadeToBlackBolt.Perhaps Dick didn't resist because he couldn't.Like Batman,he is just a (great) human after all.And love potions are pretty much like Cupid's arrows-which isn't love since it doesn't come from inside the person.
@RazzaTazz Very interesting topic.I 've heard in the news all these years that in many countries,not only rape doesn't have penalties,it is also not considered a crime(!!!!!!!).Like abusement of children (sexual,physical etc) and many more.And in some countries,it is allowed for a man to treat a woman the way he sees fit (you know what I mean) but not the other way around-the woman has the "law" against her.All these in a time where sex(I'm talking about animalistic,completely emotionless situation),money and similar things are viewed and worshipped as God.I really wish the women who are abused like this to be like Wonder Woman,Supergirl,Ms Marvel or any heroine to show them a thing or two.
I AM a male who believes in equality.And this quote:"All are equal but some are more equal" has really started to get in my nerves.It's soooo untrue.There are not men and women,white,black,yellow,red tribes etc.There are only humans
@Pokeysteve: It depends. I'm not the fun police here but is she intoxicated enough that her consent is impaired? If so, it's an assault. If not, then it's not. Depends how drunk she is. I'm not saying a girl can't go out for fun and meet a guy she wants to bring home while she happens to be drinking. If she's not impaired and does consent, then that's not assault. However, there are guys who target intoxicated women and then force themselves on her without seeking consent. "Beer goggles" cannot be considered a general pass. Context is key.
@Pokeysteve: It depends. I'm not the fun police here but is she intoxicated enough that her consent is impaired? If so, it's an assault. If not, then it's not. Depends how drunk she is. I'm not saying a girl can't go out for fun and meet a guy she wants to bring home while she happens to be drinking. If she's not impaired and does consent, then that's not assault. However, there are guys who target intoxicated women and then force themselves on her without seeking consent. "Beer goggles" cannot be considered a general pass. Context is key.
Lets not forget that the guy might be sufficiently impaired to not give consent either. They might both be at a stage where they're sufficiently impaired and its no one's fault.
@fodigg: There are no issues with consent. She his just drunk off her ass and shouldn't drive. Beer Goggles just means she finds more people attractive than she normally would. That is a definite impairment. Now guys that use that to get sex are definitely.....bad words....but is it assault? It's almost a love potion.
I think if someone is so intoxicated that they don't know what is going on - then that's assault. It's not rocket science.
The problem is that there are guys out there—and I've met some back in university—who think it's oh so hilarious to target a drunk girl at a party or bar, get her even more boozed up, and then lead her back to their apartment when she's drop-down drunk, taking care not to use campus transportation because they'd make her go back to her dorm. That's assault. It's also a problem because the idea of "well that's not rape, that's just buyer's remorse" is another insidious concept that lazy police use to ignore cases of assault.
Bottom line, if she's too drunk to know what's going on, that's assault. If that's too fine a line for someone to see, then it's probably best in that case to play it safe and not have sex with her.
@fodigg: That works for me. Sorry to drag it out but some of your posts were very cryptic to me. And those guys that go to bars and do stuff like that are pathetic. Then again the women who go get plastered and wake up in a shopping cart outside their house are pretty pathetic too. Anyways nice chatting with you.
@fodigg: That works for me. Sorry to drag it out but some of your posts were very cryptic to me. And those guys that go to bars and do stuff like that are pathetic. Then again the women who go get plastered and wake up in a shopping cart outside their house are pretty pathetic too. Anyways nice chatting with you.
Sorry for being cryptic, not my intention. Glad to see we're generally on the same page here.
@fodigg: Nah it's not your fault. I've been out of it lately. Not enough sleep haha. We are definitely on the same page. I hope that was never in doubt. I despise sexual assault more than murder and we need harsher punishments for it.
Actually the love potions in Harry Potter are used in just the way you mention. Merope, Voldemort's mother, used a love potion on Tom Riddle Sr. so would abandon his real loved one and elope with Merope. He also got Merope pregnant during that time.
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