No, no, no, no, no.

Yes.

Yup...

Yes, they have beyond enough characters to sustain their own universe.

The problem is when important characters from both universes play a big role, like Carol Danvers.....since she is a big part of both Avengers lore and Rogues history. Although, I suppose you could just have her be a different character, or just have her be the same person in another reality. For instance all the super heroes in the Marvel U exist in the X-Mens reality they just don't have super powers...except for Carol Danvers

Yes.

Yes. Of course some things like Carol Danvers affiliation with the X-men or AvX would not happen, I still think that the story would be far more consistent than it is already now. Characters like Wolverine and Storm jumping from one book to another is very frustrating as a reader to follow.

No.

No.

The reason I say no is because mutants get powers in their teenage years, they usually cause some trouble when they first manifest, unlike Avengers or Fantastic Four characters. Plus, mutants, before house of M, and after AvX, are appearing all the time now, and people usually get scared or hurt when mutant's powers first appear. With other superheroes like the Avengers or FF, there isn't more of them appearing every day and they got there powers years ago, not to mention some of them aren't starting a revolution and the Avengers work closely with SHIELD, and they do alot of PR with the public, unlike the X-Men characters.

They are big enough to have their own universe but i don't think so.

No please.

They should stay in the Marvel Universe. There's no reason for them to be in their own Universe other than the fact that there are too many X-Men characters. People being afraid of Mutants and not other Superheroes that are like them is similar to why some people in the world are scared (therefore prejudice) of people of other races or religions.

This makes no sense.

People are afraid of mutants because they have powers......People are not afraid of most super heroes although they have super powers...doesn't make sense, not to me at least.....

The only way I can see a loophole is if you were to say that people hate mutants because they seem to be the next step in evolution...and nobody wants to be considered second best...so humanity hates them, while super heroes usually acquire powers through accident. Its flawed though, because there is no way of knowing if said super heroes kids will have powers and be considered mutants.....just like Franklin Richards

Are you factoring in humans natural tendency for hypocrisy and ignorance? In Marvel, many powerful politicians and media outlets have been against the X-Men and mutants (and Spider-man) and so they can incite and inflame peoples biases and play on general ignorance. Not completely unlike how real life media often picks and chooses sides in real life to champion or vilify. I mean I have met some dumb racists in my life, people who are racist towards brown people but not black, most black people but not black athletes, Asian people (but only if they sound Asian whatever that means) if they open their mouth and sound English or American so on.

I think if in Marvel the Daily Bugle ran a story that Tigra was actually a mutant, then she would start getting hatred usually reserved for mutants even if she was only a mutant by public perception and nothing else. Unless her Avenger buddies vouched for her. So nothing really changed about her, only in a relatively superficial sense, but the public reaction being ignorant and easy to fear and hate would eat it up. I guess I just imagine that in the Marvel reality Fox News is actually considered news. Hah.

Wow, I might actually read it if they did that. It's make a lot more sense. I don't see how anyone in the Marvel U can hate mutants and cheer for the Avengers. Who cares how someone got their superpowers?

The problem is that the Marvel writers don't factor in peoples tendency for hypocrisy and ignorance probably because its comics, and there is no reason for them to get that immersed in the reality of the situation...unless its the X-Men comics, where these things are a major factor.

It always boils down to something like this: A building is on fire and Thor and Storm show up using identical powers, people hate Storm and accept Thor although Storm is more socially acceptable seeing as she supposedly looks like a super model and Thor is a gigantic brute looking guy with a giant hammer...its illogical

Another good example is how do people know who is a mutant and who is not?? I mean, in the real world if people were to hate mutants, anyone with unusual or superior talents would be labeled a mutant by a critical and irrational society...like charcters like Hank Pym and Tony Stark would likely have fingers pointed at them due to their high level intelligence.

Well some writers do/did, and as long as writers don't say anything contrary its still viable. Like I don't know where Wolverine gets all his extra mass from but as long as writers don't say that invisible suicidal flesh gummy bears run to injured Wolverine and jump on him to add extra flesh mass I am okay with Wolverine and the openness and viability of various plausible theories. Realism will always be inherently factored into comics until the main characters start having 500 arms and no faces, people just simplify why and how they are immersed - ditto the quality of writers and their stories.

Well your Storm and Thor example is great because in real life racism is still a thing so if Storm and Thor were both unemployed and on benefits a lot of people will believe its because Storm is lazy and unmotivated and taken advantage of the system where as Thor is just a victim of circumstance. It is illogical, in real life as well as the fictional stories that might realize that about real life heh heh. So in the fire example, well you know Storm if she is a mutant? Well she probably started the fire just so she could put it out to pretend she is a hero, since thats what mutants do, thats what the media, and my friends, and my family tell me. What do you mean that is illogical? I laugh at your logic. You must be a mutant supporter or worse an actual mutant... (etc etc)

People identify mutants based on ill logic and confirmation bias. Sort of like real life again. Lots of people identify other people as black just because they are from Africa forgetting that Africa is a huge continent with a lot of countries and a lot of people who identify as black, white, brown or "insert nationality" here. Oh and illogic works in more than one way - look at celebrities for example, the many naive and ignorant people worship the attractiveness and beauty of celebrities even though they probably see as many attractive people in real life but the constant exposure that certain celebrities gets can circumvent peoples brains and place them on a pedestal. Same general psychology could and probably would work with superheroes.

Like for the longest times people found it easier to live vicariously through characters that were same gender, skin color, sexual orientation and so on because of exposure and awareness. Even though there might have been characters with different skin color, gender, sexual orientation that were actually more deeply similar to those same people - which in theory would make it even easier to relate to and draw parallels from BUT... it requires deeper thinking and more consideration and the more accurate generalization about humans is that we are lazy. Now I have to go take a siesta after writing all that crap. >_>

No, they shouldn't have their own universe.

Captain America is a super soldier and was introduced and hailed as the States first "hero". As for the rest who are not mutant, they became super-powered through no fault of their own and are probably viewed by humanity as people who have taken this misfortune/gift-in-disguise and used it for the greater good.

Mutants, however, no. They are seen as the next step in evolution so "base" humanity is resentful plus it's the uncertainty and the incredible potential for destruction when a power manifests that terrifies and when you are terrified, you kind of view what terrifies you as being "bad".

I like having the two together, I like having the hypocrisy used in stories.

Also, what happens with all the villains? Not all are mutants when they fight the X-Men and not all are super-human geniuses when they battle the Avengers. Splitting the two makes no sense and so, more and more, having the Avenger and the X-Men team up is the way to go. When I think as a fan, I get a bit cynical because of the Avenger hype and I am an X-Men fan. I don't like how they are pushing Iron Man and Gang on me but this is how the business is, I guess.

Marvel Universe is the Marvel Universe. Avengers and mutants have been intersected for a while now with more and more mutants joining the Avengers ranks. If anything, X-Men are exclusionary and don't have any non-mutants as part of their team (although for a while Carol was) so why isn't that being brought up?

I'll stop there because I feel a rant coming on.

I agree with all this, especially the point about why the X-Men haven't invited any non-mutant characters. I understand that the X-Men is a mutant superhero group, but if the Avengers could take in mutant characters, why can't the X-Men take in non-mutant characters? That might help humanity discover that the X-Men are on friendly terms with human beings who don't have powers because the human beings are willing to work with them. However, there is the issue about the human characters joining the X-Men being persecuted themselves since society views mutants as the bad guys and the human characters might get killed or injured because of that. I definitely would like to see an X-Men story where the X-Men actually tries to recruit human members to help spread out their goals.

Yes, yes, a big fat yes. I hate the fact that the Avengers are more involved in the X-Men universe. Coming to utopia giving the X-Men orders, they can bugger off. Damn Avengers.

Longshot, Fantomex, Hepzibah, Omega Sentinel, Moira MacTaggert, Nurse Annie, Stevie Hunter (to an extent) and many more. The X-Men have, in fact, recruited non-mutant members as part of their team throughout the years, evidently not to a notable degree, though.

@ageofhurricane:

Yes to Longshot -- he was great and a big part of the X-Men (alien, not human though) and as for Nurse Annie and Stevie Hunter, they were never recruited as X-Men. Stevie is kinda a personal favourite with me -- I wish they would bring them back but Marvel just wants to keep the humans the baddies here.

I meant more along the lines of super humans to be part of the X-Men -- the radio active, gamma exposed guys. Maybe some Black Widow style expert heroes -- that kind of thing --- that is missing big time and make the X-Men very, very exclusionary. I get that the whole point of Xavier's dream -- getting those with the X-Gene to live in harmony alongside baseline humans, but why does that exclude anyone other than a mutant?

Just a thought out there.

I definitely would love it if some of the Avengers actually joined the X-Men (not like Uncanny Avengers where some X-Men members join the Avengers). It would be interesting to see how Hulk or Thor would see the inner workings of the X-Men and try to help them out.

Eh, i still see them as X'ers. But i do see what you mean, and i think this is because they've always stuck to the fundamentals of The Cause (mutantkind), non-mutants members kind of diminish it, and since it's a habit that wasn't picked on from earlier days, they'll probably never see the need to or get used to recruiting non-mutant members for the benefits of MK.

@rabbitearsblog: In that case, i wouldn't mind seeing lesser known Avengers (if there are any) on the team, people like Hulk and Thor along with the rest of Marvel's A-List patriarch get enough attention already.

Nice video topic to start discussion. Personally I do not think the X-Men should have a seperate universe but I do think some changes are needed in the marvel universe. First I like the basic premice behind the fear of mutants in the Marvel, basically people fear change and Mutants are seen by some as a new level of human evolution and historically when a new species of humanoids emerge that signals the beginning of the end of established species. Now getting away from evolution it has always susprised me how bi-polar the marvel universe is in relation to superpowered beings. I understand when the X-Men were first created beng feared and hated was their thing and the writers embraced it. But getting into the more modern times as comics have tried, with varinging levels of success to become more realistic. I have always wondered why other superpowered beings have consistently gotten a pass generally in terms of being feared by the public. I understand Captain America was just a regular guy and voluntered to become the supersoldier and is widely admired as he is the hero he is written to be. Now take the Thing for example compared to say Kitty Pryde. The Thing was transformed by cosmic radiation alomg with the rest of the Fantastic Four and is generally seen as a heroic figure. Kitty is an attractive young woman but people here the word mutant and all of a sudden she is a monster but the Thing is acceptable. This makes no sense. Human nature being what it is you would think it would be more likely they would both be feared if people are worried about their being superpowered people in the world. Another example is the purifiers. They burned a entire town to the ground to try to kill the first mutant baby born since the decimation. I have always wondered why they felt so threatened by the relatively few mutants in the world but all the other superpowered people in the world are OK. Again this makes no sense and yes I know asking a comic book to make sense is a tall order. It would seem to me that a hate group like the purifiers would not limit themselves to mutants and would see all people with superpowers as a threat. I know mutant-human relations are being address in Uncanny Avengers so we will have to wait to seewhat if anything comes of that. I thought after Civil War when concern over superpowers was not limited to mutants that things might change but that was not the case as things quickly went back to the status quo. I guess I would like to see hatred and ignorance applied more realistically across the board. I think that could be a great source of new stories.

All series should be in separate universes.

This would really go against the Marvel SHARED Universe theme, no?

Awesome post lorex!! I definitely agree with you about how it's not fair that mutants are being discriminated when characters like the Thing who has a bizarre appearance are still being accepted. Most of the X-Men members look like normal human beings, so how would the public actually know who's who when dealing with powers?

The main thing that bothers me, as others have mentioned, is that it makes zero sense that the more publicly accepted super heroes like fantastic four and avengers don't do anything about the unfair treatment of mutants.

As heroes, isn't it their place to stop robotic sentinels from destroying mutant schools? This is just one example. I don't mean that the xmen need the physical help of the fantastic four or avengers, but shouldn't the avengers be upset that the government they work for is contributing to mutant school destruction via the sentinel program?

This is the main reason I question whether or not xmen should be in their own universe. Either the well-regarded heroes need to display some anger about mutants being treated this way, or they need to be called out for being hypocrites, or xmen need their own universe.

In my eyes, one of these three options needs to happen in the books or the whole universe just becomes less legitimate.

(I will add that the recent uncanny avenger / a+x titles are helping deal with this to an extent... But we need to see if they have any lasting effects).

I agree. I think that if the other heroes were actually a bit concerned about the problems facing the mutant population, then it would be believable to have the X-Men in the same universe as the other superheroes. I do wonder about Uncanny Avengers about whether or not, they are going to affect the entire mutant population or just part of it and I also want to see how long they're going to let that last before they retcon whatever happened.

I actually think that having the X-men cohabit a world with other, less reviled superheroes helps illustrate the innate hypocrisy of prejudice that is one of the major themes of the X-men.

Basically, even if you were to wipe away their rich and colourful shared history (which, in itself would be a shame), the X-men just is a stronger story because they live in a world that discriminates seemingly arbitrarily.

Yes.

This is one aspect of the hypocrisy of the Marvel universe that starts becoming more untenable the more you think about it. These heroes are friends, collaborators and occasional colleagues, yet the same heroes who fight for truth, justice and the American way turn a blind eye towards this aspect of superhuman affairs. The X-Men's stance on this is equally absurd; they often refuse help when others heroes offer it, saying that mutants need to self-regulate, but isn't that essentially a statement of secession from the greater Marvel universe. This is probably why I gravitate more towards books helmed by one author or creative team versus shared universes with so many different visions for the overall society. While it could make sense that some heroes could be hated and feared, the world building for the universe doesn't support it.

I actually liked the inter-connectedness of the Marvel Universe and how the heroes all coexist in the same time and space, but over time, this stopped becoming a benefit and becomes a liability due to the sheer amount of superhumans that now exist and how the X-Men evolved from students/occasional heroes to full blown superheroes. The suspicious reaction to the original X-Men, as retro and awkward as they seem to modern eyes, made sense in the context of the universe. Every other hero had a public identity, but the X-Men, wishing to retain their civilian identities and counter-scoring how any regular person could potentially be a mutant, wore masks and didn't appear to fight many major nemeses. The Giant Size lineup, while introducing a roster consisting of a multiethnic cast, fell into traditional superhero tropes and ironically compromised why the public would hate and fear them.

Awesome post Phoenix!!! I agree that there needs to be more balance on whether or not the super heroes in the Marvel Universe can help each other out or not because it's starting to get to that point where you have to wonder if the X-Men even belong in this universe because of their lack of getting help from the other superheroes.

They kinda already are to be honest...

@cattlebattle: The thing is, bigotry isn't logical. If it were, then it wouldn't be bigotry, it would be a legitimate distinction. There is no reasonable logic that justifies the dehumanizing or othering of any group of people. The flawed logic of anti mutant bigotry is:

"Mutants are freaks born with powers. They're not like us, and they have abilities we don't fully understand, so we fear them."

"Superheroes were normal people who the gained powers later on in life through accidents or scientific procedures. They started out like us and any one of us could be like them, so we see them as still being our."

From a basic, pragmatic stance, it doesn't make sense. Mutants and Superheroes both have powers and are both equally dangerous. But bigotry isn't about pragmatism, it's about hating and fearing things that go against what your idea of how people should be is. Bigotry is by it's very nature based on broken logic. By the broken logic of bigotry, Mutants are "other" and to be feared, and superheroes are of our kind and to be admired. That's how being a bigot works.

Yes. The X-men have so many characters and there are so many x-villians that I think they should be in their own universe. Especially with the avengers forever recruiting xmen. They should just have their own universe. It would also add to the hatred aspect as mutants would be seen as the next step in evolution and possibly the destruction of the human race yet also having powers and the ability to save the human race. I agree with the statement that's its a bit crazy to hate mutants and not the Avengers

Absolutely. I really wish they were in their own universe to be honest. The idea X-Men and mutants being feared works in both a universe with other superheroes and one with only mutants, but the idea would be sooo much stronger in an all X-universe.

Also, I feel like even if you take out the X-Men and mutants, the main Marvel U won't be lacking any heroes. They would have all their regular humans like Hawkeye and Black Widow; they would have their science experiment heroes, like the Hulk, Captain America, Spider-Man, and Iron Man; they would have aliens, like the Guardians of the Galaxy and Thanos; they would have the mutant-like Inhumans; and they would also have all of their deity type of characters like Thor.

I also want this because I don't like the fact that the Avengers keep popping up in every X-book, one way or another. I'm not really a fan of the Avengers. Actually, all the books are just a little too integrated for my taste. That's actually one thing that DC does pretty decently. Each DC character kinda lives their own life without much interruption. The only reason I read Marvel is for the X-Men and a few of their books every once in a while.

I definitely agree with this. I personally liked it better when the other superheroes barely showed up in the X-Men universe. It just feels like the Avengers are caving into the X-Men universe a bit too much.

@rabbitearsblog: Yup, and I feel like now, Marvel is deliberately and aggressively trying to blur the lines between mutants/X-Men and other heroes like Avengers. Hence, Uncanny Avengers (which I actually kinda like a little bit, but still).

Yeah, sooner or later, all the X-Men characters will become Avengers.

I just wanted to comment on this and I didnt want to start a new thread.

At the moment I do personally believe that separating the XU and the MU would be an intelligent move. Despite some of the "integral" ties the two "franchises" have:

Black Panther/Storm

Captain America/Wolverine

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch/Magneto

Namor

Franklin Richards

I don't think it's worth the convoluted nature of superhero prejudice and oversaturation.

Let me put that another way, X-Men is a period piece. It should (technically speaking) have a definitive beginning and an end. The beginning here being En Sabah Nur, the first mutant, and the end being the death of the last human OR the eradication of the x-gene (if that's possible). Certain events in X-Men lore have to happen at certain times for the story to continue in a logical fashion.

1. Magneto has to have been in a Nazi concentration camp in the early 1940s.

2. Magneto and Xavier have to have been friends before they part ways.

3. Xavier (middle aged) then enrolls his first student, a young Cyclops.

etc. etc. The movies, and the ultimate universe prove that these things are the best way to tell the story. But eventually, we could assume that every person on the planet would carry the x-gene. And that humans would no longer inhabit Earth. I would estimate this process would take 6000 years, beginning in ancient Egypt.

The rest of the Marvel universe on the other hand (as shown time and time again) can be rehashed in many different "present" day settings. Peter Parker can be a child of the 50 and 60s (Amazing Fantasy), the 70s, the 80s, the 90s (Raimi's) the 2000s (Ultimate) and beyond. Tony Stark actually makes more sense in the modern/post-modern day than he did in the 60s. Radio transistors anyone?

And on another interesting note, it nullifies any name relation confusion.

Sam Wilson/Wade Wilson

Peter Parker/Piotr Rasputin

Curt Connors/Kurt Wagner

Victor Von Doom/Victor Creed

Elizabeth Ross/Elizabeth Braddock

And so many Johns, Johnnys, James and Jimmys my head spins.

I mean, honestly, it just allows a tighter focus on the characters you want to hear about on any given page. Rather than a broad blurred glimpse at so many characters, you start to forget why you cared in the first place.

@pr0xyt0xin: I agree that the X-Men should at some point end. Whether it ends with peace or at least a easier truce between the human and mutants, humans exterminate the mutants or mutants take over. The countdown clock has been hit too many times for me to ever believe that mutants and humans can work together for any significant amount of time. The Marvel universe is perfect for it because they have a literally infinite canvas to write on.

One of the reasons I love Xmen is becuz no matter what they do.. people hate them.. they could save a burning bus filled with children.. as soon as the last child is off the bus... someone is throwing a boot screaming u stinking muties... I love the fact that the Avengers and ff spiderman are accepted and they are not.. it gives them a edge that the other teams dont ( in my opinion) I love the characters of ff n the movies cartoons.. but not enough to pick a book up.. only time I read any other marvel book was The Onslaught saga or a lil bit of A vs X.. when all the other heroes died.. and everybody hated them even more was a dope time.. they upgraded their sentinels.. people feared them even more.. I say this to say.. I think Xmen could go a darker route if they had their own universe.. like with age of apocalypse but without him ruling and murdering every human, I will admit it does suck that avengers never help the xmen out in their cause even tho they have mutants on their team.. but the avengers are quick to tell them what to do.. I know avengers are superheroes and the Xmen fights for their cause or help train new mutants.. but the xmen in their own universe could work better... since their battles are for mutant causes and protecting humans from dangerous mutants with a world domination mentally

No. They benefit too much from being in a bigger universe.

Nope. I enjoy the X-Men interacting with other characters in the Marvel Universe. I will say I'm not a huge fan of X-Men joining the Avengers (with a few exceptions).

Being in their own universe might make it so we see less convolution in the books. Each team could have a separate and distinct purpose as opposed to just being another superhero team out there for the hell of it. And it wouldn't seem redundant with teams existing in the same Universe doing the same exact things. i mean seriously how can anyone in the 616 not feel safe when you have SHIELD, like 50 or so Avengers, FF, GOTG, Inhumans, Spiderman, and 200 Xmen all running around plus whatever law enforcement. Its kind of silly sometimes

They tried it. Heroes Reborn, right after Onslaught. Didn't work out all that well.