Power NeXus's forum posts

#1 Edited by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

THIS IS COMPLETELY RELEVANT TO MY INTERESTS

#2 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@mootagen said:

We're discussing this as though the writing is consistent. As with all supers, the powers increase or decrease to fit the storyline. Most people are choosing benchmarks arbitrarily. I've read enough to think the fight could go either way.

But one more thing that annoys me about comic logic is that NC never teleports closer than punching- or kicking-range. If he was holding a dagger or any other object and teleported so close to an enemy that the object materializes in him, he could immediately incapacitate the foe. He could stop Remy without killing the foe by teleporting a long, thin object into one of Remy's hands or legs, then clock him while he's stunned, or take out another limb. But he never does that. What the hell?

Nightcrawler never does that because its not in his character.
Sure, he fights with swords sometimes and has no problem with stabbing somebody, but the easy 'insta-win' moves simply aren't his style. He grew up on Errol Flynn swashbuckling movies, and likes to act the part of the "dashing young scallion saving the damsel in distress" kind of guy. He likes to put some 'style' in his fights, so he'd much rather face a guy in a head-on fair fight than stab him in the back.

#3 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm tired of having two separate conversations with two separate people and having basically the exact same debate points in both. For clarity, I will try to put my full argument in one post.

STRENGTH
As I've been saying, I believe Nightcrawler has a small edge in physical strength. When he was created, superhuman strength was intended to be one of his powers. Despite the fact that it has been forgotten about in all official handbooks, it still shows in some of his feats. Its unfair to assume that Nightcrawler still has superhuman strength, but his feats of strength and durability are a level above Olympic-level athletes. This is not a HUGE advantage for Nightcrawler, but being able to hit harder and take more hits than your opponent is always an edge.

REACTION TIME
Ok fine. Maybe Gambit has slightly better reaction time than Nightcrawler. Maybe he doesn't. Both of them have excellent feats (for Nightcrawler's, see the scans of him casually dodging bullets without teleporting, or teleporting away from a bullet before it leaves the barrel) and the point could be debated all day, but its honestly too close to matter. No matter which one of them is superior, they are not superior by enough of a margin that it would make any impact on the outcome of the fight.

PREDICTABILITY
I can't even recall any specific times during which both Gambit and Nightcrawler were X-Men at the same time. It probably has happened at some point (I'm not an encyclopedia of the X-Men's history), but it would have to have been a very brief period at best. And I have already presented two reasons why Nightcrawler would probably not be overly predictable in a fight such as this. 1) Nobody has commented on his predictability in a long time. He's grown up, gotten more skilled, and gotten more experience since the last time one of his teammates said that. Were he still so predictable, his fights against Sage and Death/Wolverine (for which I've already shown scans) and Rogue and Colossus (for which I can provide scans in a later post) would not have gone nearly as well for him. 2) As evidenced in his fight against Sage (for which I have already provided scans), Nightcrawler shows that he's intelligent enough to alter his combat tactics when fighting someone who knows him. Its stated pretty much verbatum in that fight that he chose not to teleport at all simply because he knew Sage would be expecting him to do so. This is why Gambit's feat against the Nightcrawler robot is not really valid. The robot was meant to be like Nightcrawler, but had no actual mind of its own. Thats why it was predictable. Nightcrawler, as shown, thinks creatively against opponents who know how he usually thinks. I don't think there's a single X-Man who knows Kurt better than Wolverine does, but Kurt has already proven he's now capable of disarming/hurting Death Wolverine in two panels.

AGILITY
Not much to debate here. I think we can all agree they are on roughly the same level.

SKILL
I'll admit that Gambit is superior in this area. However, I do not think he is superior by a large margin. While Nightcrawler's teleportation was severly weakened while he was with Excalibur, he was forced to spend an extensive time making up for his loss of power by amping up his skill. That's when he added rapiers to his standard arsenal and began more serious training in hand-to-hand combat. While Gambit certainly has more impressive feats/fights involving raw h2h combat, Nightcrawler has proven himself very competant in that area as well.

UNCOMMON TACTICS
Nightcrawler can drop an enemy from two miles up in the air. Nightcrawler can dismember enemies via teleportation. Nightcrawler can teleport solid objects directly into an opponents' body. Nightcrawler can grab enemies who aren't used to teleporting and take them on a multi-port ride that leaves them nearly unconcious.
But he almost never does.
Gambit can make living matter explode. Gambit can make objects he's not physically touching explode (There's one thing I can't help but point out though. In that scan where he supposedly charged the plate with his eyes... he was holding the plate. :/ ). Gambit can increase the effectiveness of his staff by charging it up.
But he almost never does.
When debating for or against a character, you can't just take the feats you like the best and say he's definitely going to do it again in this situation. There's a difference between what Nightcrawler COULD do to beat Gambit, and what he PROBABLY WOULD do to beat him. The same applies to Gambit.
Due to the number of times they've performed these feats on panel, its not a good argument to say that Gambit explodes Nightcrawler's body or Nightcrawler teleport's Gambit's hands off. When trying to determine the probable outcome of a fight, one should not look at the improbable feats.


SCENARIO AS I SEE IT
Since they start 20 feet apart, in a street, visible to each other, I think its highly probable that the fight is going to start with Gambit spamming a few cards at Nightcrawler right off the bat. Using his explosives in such a basic manner will get Gambit nowhere. You can talk about Gambit's accuracy all day, but I still see multiple scans where Nightcrawler casually dodges bullets from close range without even having to teleport. Avoiding projectiles is like half of all Nightcrawler ever does... like ever. He does it all the stinking time. I'm not saying Gambit isn't going to hurt Kurt, but I am saying he's not going to do it with just a regular card throw.
Since Gambit is never going to hit Kurt from long range, and Kurt can't do anything at all from long range, I don't think its going to take more than a few seconds until Kurt teleports in close and the fight goes mano e mano.
Now, as we all know, they both have their own advantages in h2h combat. Gambit has a weapon and superior fighting skill. Nightcrawler has teleportation and superior strength/durability. Now, I'm still of the opinion that this fight is very close, but Nightcrawler's feats just make me think his advantages are slightly better than Gambit's. He took on Sage in hand-to-hand without even teleporting. He put Death Wolverine on his knees in two panels, disarming him and breaking his armor before he could even react. He's durable enough to tank a backhand from Sebastian Shaw, and strong enough to make Captain Britain and Spider-Man say ouch. He can teleport in the space between a gun being fired and the bullet leaving the barrel (I know I keep coming back to that one, but that really is an exemplary example of his reaction time).

I'm not saying this is a landslide by any means. Gambit's superior skill and his bo staff make the melee aspect very close. He also has a chance of winning if he manages to do something really creative and tricky with his cards other than just throwing them like he usually does. They both have a good chance of winning. However, I think if these guys fought 100 times, Nightcrawler might win 55 or 60 of those fights. It's still a very close fight that could go either way, but I give Nightcrawler a small majority.

#4 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@power_nexus said:

I honestly can't say I'm surprised at all. I've been a debater on these boards for a few years now (I just haven't been very active as of late), and I've only rarely seen debates involving Nightcrawler in which he is represented accurately. His powers and capabilities seem to be largely misunderstood by the general public. Nearly everyone either underestimates him by looking at the one fight where Cyclops called him predictable, or they overestimate him by thinking he'll use his powers for insta-wins like dismemberment or sky-drops (ignoring the fact that he hardly EVER actually uses such tactics).

Yes but to those who know him and have worked with him for a long time, his teleporting and combat tactics should be well known to someone like Gambit really. When his bamfing comes with a loud sound and the smell of brimstone according to Iron Fist, it should be easy to predict where he's going. Now take that with someone who can react faster than Kurt, is as agile as him and more deadly at range and close combat and I don't see Kurt taking a majority. Yes he can avoid Gambit for a while but Gambit is capable at range and in close quarters whereas Kurt needs to be close to be effective.

Gambit has not worked with Nightcrawler for a long time. I've pointed this out several times. They've hardly ever been members of the team at the same time.

You say it 'should' be easy to predict, but you're pretty much ignoring all the times Nightcrawler has managed to BAMF-tag anybody else with a decent skill level. Apparently its not always that easy.

The 'react faster' point is debatable, and not significant enough to be relevant.

The 'more deadly at close range' part is also debatable, considering that Nightcrawler has better strength/durability feats and can move around faster.

#5 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus: I mentioned the teleportation feat because I'm pointing out that Gambit is still a faster mover with his reaction speed, he's faster than Nightcrawler.

Noob or not, Kurt hasn't changed up tactically really since then and he hasn't been fighting the X-Men as often, people who know him (Gambit fought Nightcrawler's android clone...obviously not a testament to how it would go down with the real, but it copied his fighting style, predictable). And it's too consistent with the character for his own teammates to know what he's gonna do.

Gambit can and in this case may as well cus even though he doesn't do it often, he did it recently enough against Iron Man that it is relevant to this battle.

Without swords I don't see him posing as much of a threat, considering the fact that Gambit has shown he can charge things without even touching them and then there's what he did to Kurts mom ..... I just don't see Kurt winning with those factors among others, he may be able to blend in with the shadows...but Remy can light it up in a second and take that element away.

Nightcrawler has some sweet feats for speed and reaction time too. Gambit may be faster, but I don't think there's enough of a margin for it to really make a noticable difference.

Kurt isn't dumb enough to act like a robot of himself. As an example, I've posted the scans of his hand-to-hand combat fight with Sage. The only reason he was fighting without teleportation was because he knew Sage had studied him and his tactics, so he changed it up to catch her off guard. If he's fighting Gambit, he would have the same mindset (change it up a little, use moves you don't usually use, etc). Robots don't get that innovative.
And how often have Kurt and Remy even been X-Men at the same time. Honestly, I'm having trouble thinking of any time during which they were on the same squad at the same time.

So doing a feat once recently makes it a common tactic now? I might as well start listing off Kurt's feats for tele-dropping, tele-dismemberment, etc.
(sarcasm)

Again, Remy CAN charge things without touching them. How often does he do it though?
Characters don't always use their powers in combat the way we think they should. Nightcrawler CAN 'port an enemy 2 miles in the sky and let him drop, but that doesn't mean I can say NC wins this fight by those means. It's something he VERY rarely does. It wouldn't be a legitimate support for my side of the debate.

#6 Edited by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days:

Kurts best reaction feat has nothing to do with bodily movement since it's a teleportation feat.

I don't see how that makes any difference. Its a perfectly valid feat for reaction time. Its not meant to be a feat for his physical speed. I've already posted scans of him showing off while dodging automatic gunfire (without teleporting). Those are his speed/agility feats. The one you're referencing is just meant to be a reaction time feat.

Stealth really isn't much of a factor when Nightcrawler is as predicable as he is

All the scans you can post that indicate Nightcrawler's predictability come from the X-Men's earlier days when he was still a noob without any serious training or experience. You have to take into account that those particular fights were a long time ago, Nightcrawler has had a lot of training since then, and he hasn't had any more 'predictability' comments since then.

Kurt may be slightly physically stronger but Gambit can charge his staff to pack more punch.

Key word being 'can'. Gambit doesn't use that tactic very often.

if Kurt has swords chances are he'll end up charging them since he can charge some objects without even touching them. and if Kurt has his swords, there goes his element of surprise since they aren't going to blend into the shadows like he can.

The only time Kurt has used swords as standard gear was when he was a member of Excalibur. To say he has standard gear now means he is unarmed.

#7 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus:

I actually missed this part.

Range: edge - Gambit (its basically useless though)

Strength: edge - Nightcrawler (barely)

Speed/manuverability: edge - Nightcrawler (by a LOT)

Agility: equal

Reaction time: equal

Fighting skill: edge - Gambit (not by much)

Weapons: edge - Gambit

I can agree with some of this. Kurt does have better strength feats and both are incredibly agile, but I do hope you mean he outclasses him in maneuverability because of teleporting. And maybe in terms of dodging they have similar reflex feats, but I don't see Kurt having as many bullet deflecting feats as Gambit does. As far as reflex/dodge goes, I can see where you're coming from in reaction time to say it is even, but in actual combat speed of action/reaction, I see Gambit as outclassing him by a noticeable margin.

Yes, I gave Nightcrawler the manuverability/speed edge due to his teleporting. In terms of raw physical ability, I think they are tied for agility and quickness.

Nightcrawler doesn't have as many bullet deflecting feats as Gambit does because... that's just not what he does. He dodges bullets and he teleports away from them, but he hardly ever carries anything that he could use to deflect bullets (contarary to popular opinion, he doesn't actually use swords that often).
But, if you're looking for Kurt's bullet timing feats, check out the scan I posted on this page. He has a gun against his head, and he teleports after the gun has been fired but before the bullet reaches him.

#8 Edited by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@power_nexus said:

I wouldn't be too quick to call bias on a battle like this. Neither of these characters have ever had Batman-level popularity or anything, but Gambit usually has a larger fanbase than Nightcrawler does.

The thing is, the voting was massively skewed in Nightcrawler's favour BEFORE you and some other Viners came in with some actual reasonable arguments for Nightcrawler. Until a page ago, only one person had made a good case for Nightcrawler which isn't saying much about how this battle is turning out in the polls.

I honestly can't say I'm surprised at all. I've been a debater on these boards for a few years now (I just haven't been very active as of late), and I've only rarely seen debates involving Nightcrawler in which he is represented accurately. His powers and capabilities seem to be largely misunderstood by the general public. Nearly everyone either underestimates him by looking at the one fight where Cyclops called him predictable, or they overestimate him by thinking he'll use his powers for insta-wins like dismemberment or sky-drops (ignoring the fact that he hardly EVER actually uses such tactics).

#9 Edited by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@ancient_0f_days said:

This is ridiculous, smh ......

At least people are actually making arguments and providing scans for Nightcrawler now. Though his absurd lead is a clear mark of popularity coming into play.

I wouldn't be too quick to call bias on a battle like this. Neither of these characters have ever had Batman-level popularity or anything, but Gambit usually has a larger fanbase than Nightcrawler does.

#10 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
Strong enough to flip around grown men like ragdolls
Sets at least a half dozen explosives to a ten-second fuse, and places them all on Sentinels within nine seconds.
A couple of examples of him teleporting as rapidly as he can punch, decking three men before the first man hits the ground.
Dodges lasers at very close range and leads one enemy into shooting another.
This is, perhapds, one of Kurt's greatest feats of reaction time. The barrel of a gun is against his head, and he teleports away after the bullet is fired but before it leaves the barrel.

Strangely, not all of my scans wanted to show up in my post. Here are some more that I think could be relevant...