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I don't know an awful lot about Shalidor, especially combat-feats wise compared to Miraak. While it is believed that Shalidor single-handedly constructed the Labyrinithian, as well as apparently stealing the artifact of life from Akatosh himself, most if not all of his other accomplishments were exaggerated to my knowledge. On the other hand, Miraak had complete access to Apocrypha for god knows how long as well as being Mora's right hand man for quite a while. He battled Vahlok which was widely believed to have torn Solstheim away from the mainland, which is quite a feat.

Now I'm unaware of how powerful the foes of Shalidor were, so someone could perhaps provide some info there if it helps. In addition to Miraak's battle with Vahlok, he also instantly crippled the Last Dragonborn with a single spell the moment he entered Apocrypha which should count for something. When Miraak finally confronted him for their battle (both being at the height of their power), he survived the onslaught and it required Mora himself to finish the job.

I'll take Miraak's side for the time being based on what I know, as I could be swayed depending on what people come up with for Shalidor.

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: Aight, Round 3 everybody, here we go.

Yes, the mighty and skilled men of Gondor. Trained for battle and ready to fight to the death. Killing off the scourge from Mordor so that the rest of men may rest at night. You know who else has killed off these dastardly creatures? Hobbits. Untrained, unskilled, unaccustomed to battle hobbits. No matter how you put it, as long as people like hobbits continue to kill these soldiers I will remain unimpressed. As far as the combat prowess of an individual orc is concerned, it's largely unimpressive. As I've said in my earlier post, they don't rely on their capabilities in battle to win wars, they rely heavily on the force of sheer numbers. I'm afraid the significance of orc combat is just going to have to be disagreed upon.

This point alone either screams ignorance to the Lord of the Rings trilogy in general, or else it's just completely inconsiderate of what I've put into the past two posts. The Hobbits are capable of defeating their fair share of Orcs due to their natural aptitude for combat and hardiness, not because the Orcs are pathetic warriors in comparison. If that were true, there's no reason why they'd have posed such a threat to Middle Earth in the first place nor would they be Sauron's primary force in reattaining his power. In the clips I've posted above (if you actually watched through them, that is), you'll notice individual Orcs perfectly able to match and often overwhelm the superiorly trained, skilled, armored and experienced soldiers of Gondor in single combat. The evidence of their level of skill has been provided too, and essentially everything I've factually stated so far has been backed up in some way.

Are Orcs only capable of this because Gondor's men aren't as good in action as they are on paper? Not in the slightest, and anyone with even a somewhat limited degree of knowledge on the Lord of the Rings and/or Tolkien's works is aware of this.

The Orcs are treated as a threat for a reason, not just because of numbers, but their attributes that they bring to battle are certainly challenging to put it lightly. As for the Hobbits, the point has been said and defended, the prevalent Hobbits of the trilogy can and have done well in these exact battle scenarios. In Balin's Tomb, they were all capable of holding their own against the Goblins. In the battles for Minas Tirith and Pelennor Fields, both Merry and Pippin had parttaken in the fight and had a kill count themselves - especially Merry, being directly involved with the ride of Rohirim and proves himself greatly. Merry was also previously doubted by Theoden, Eomer and Rohirim in general simply for being a Hobbit, but yet he demonstrated otherwise.

He survived stabbing the Witch King, which no man should have been able to do realistically.

Pippin easily had an Orc to his kill list as well, as he jumped in before Gandalf was hit and succeeded.

The both of them stood side by side along with the remaining armies of men on a final stand against Mordor and fought through bravely.

They've truly been a long way in terms of battle, and even assisted the Ents in their march on Isengard. Frodo and Sam's case doesn't need to be explained, as the very plot of the films emphasizes just that, a quest that seemed laughably impossible was accomplished by two mere Hobbits with no past training nor experience. Unless you'd argue this is all one mere coincidence, I'd say they're pretty consistent in proving themselves ample for some serious bloodshed. While they're not as much of an overall well rounded combatant as a man of Gondor, they have enough going for them to fight the same battles well. It's not just these Hobbits either, as Bilbo had also produced a variety of feats by being always involved in these similar circumstances.

That point has been well phrased in my opinion and continuing to disregard the capabilities of the Hobbits is an argument built on quick sand. Anyway, to get back onto the Orcs, even though skill isn't their strong suit, they possess the ability to utilize it if necessary. A single Orc scout was more than a match for one of Theoden's guard (men of a higher rank than typical Rohirim forces) on horseback, and Legolas was required to step in before anything happened. If you watch the clip through, you'll notice Orcs defeating the soldiers just as easily as they do vice versa, as they've done in all instances that I've exhibited.

A couple of more feats for Aragorn from that particular battle include.

• 3:50 - 3:53 - Instantly kills a Warg by throwing a spear with only one attempt, creatures much more formidable than Ghost.
• 3:59 - 4:02 - Easily disarms and beats an Orc in three swift moves.
• 4:10 - 4:36 - Tanks a charge from a Warg and is then dragged across the ground by it, still managing to kill the Orc Rider and then later on surviving his fall off the cliff, which is surely an impressive display of fighting his way out of dire situations and general endurance as well.

Is that because Gondor's men aren't as good in action as they are on paper? Not in the slightest, and anyone with a half degree of knowledge on the Lord of the Rings and/or Tolkien's works is aware of this. The Orcs are treated as a threat for a reason, not simply because of numbers, but their attributes that they bring to battle are certainly challenging to put it lightly. It's easier to think of it as a grown man taking on a chimpanzee, for example. Sure, the man is bigger, weighs more, is more intelligent and can be more skilled, but a chimp is stronger, more resilient infinitely more vicious and potentially a lot more dangerous because of this. The logic applies and parallels to my case almost perfectly, but you haven't properly addressed and countered what I've said in any way, as you're arguing points that'd be made from a very generalized perspective of how these forces of Middle Earth truly operate.

I will agree that Sam, while still untrained for the majority, is an exception. I will not deny his capability in battle, even if he does get a good amount of luck at times. The others however? Far from it.

This has been debunked thoroughly, and the evidence is literally taken directly from the scenes of the films as it should be.

You're right, skill doesn't account for everything in a fight. However, it does heavily impact the outcome of a battle. Relying on your physical advantages can only get you so far, and often times can lead to it being a crutch(such as Gregor's defeat at the hands of Oberyn). Skill on the other hand is more reliable, being able to counter your opponent's blows and return them is far more advantageous than physical prowess.

Not when your opponent oumatches you in every physical category and is also equally well skilled if not more. What Jon's skill consists of in his battles is easily replicated and perfected by Aragorn if you pay attention to his fights. I'm up to date on Game of Thrones and I'm well aware of Jon's capabilities (which doesn't seem to be mutual in this debate), and I can say for sure that no feats of Jon can place him adequately to Aragorn's standards as a warrior altogether. Aragorn has it all over Jon, and this means that Aragorn is packing far more strength behind his sword swings, at a greater speed, and whilst possessing excellent skill as well as holding more experience as a swordsmen overall. I agree that skill is more reliable to determine a tactical and calculative combatant, but only if we're taking two characters who aren't far off from each other physically. The gap between Aragorn and Jon in physical terms is blatant and the tides turn in Aragorn's favor from what has already been shown. Aragorn, in general, casually combats and beats opponents on another level in comparison to who Jon is used to battling.

Aragorn's power as the true King of Gondor allowed him to surpass the King of the Dead, too, a being no mere man could've hoped to step up to.

His performace in said battles greatly advances his strength, skill, speed, endurance, stamina and thus ranks higher on the food chain as a combatant than Jon. The simply difference is that while Jon is a great warrior in his universe, Aragorn is also a great warrior in his. However, it's Jon who wouldn't be able to apply his skills to the same standard if they swapped universes, where as Aragorn would be having a relaxing vacation in Westeros.

Even in the regard of physical superiority, Aragorn isn't that far ahead if at all. For example, during the fight with the White Walker you posted above.

Since most of Aragorn's showings above have involved the consistent battling of opponents physically superior to Jon (Orcs, Uruk-Hai, Lurtz, a freaking Cave Troll, etc), I'd say he kind of his far ahead of Jon, and will be able to handle Ghost too. Granted, he might not be able to take a Cave Troll blow for blow, but he has been able to harm it and literally tug it back away from Sam (albeit with the help of Boromir, still something Jon can and hasn't replicated either way).

But Aragorn has legitimately held his own against a troll (smaller than a cave troll, but ridiculously powerful still) in single combat.

He struggled, no doubt about that, but he was more than capable of parrying the troll's strikes (at a significant disadvantage in strength and weapon size) as well as tanking a blow that sent him flying. In other words, Aragorn clearly handled an armored troll better than Jon handled a White Walker. An average troll in general is far more dangerous than a typical White Walker, as they possess superior strength, durability, speed and in this case armor over them.

For the most of the fight Jon actually does hold his own against him. The White Walker didn't totally dominate him, Jon actually was able to dodge and counter him and probably would have continued to do so had the sword he picked up not shattered.. Keep in mind that the White Walkers are physically superior to humans, yet Jon was able to parry blow for blow when in direct combat.

Not really, to be honest. The White Walker was mildly quick but it's movement was stiff, and any time it got it's hands on Jon it ragdolled him. When he got back up the second time after being flung, he couldn't even tag the White Walker and regardless of whether the sword smashed or not, the Walker still had a pretty good parry lined up. Jon would've been done there and then if the Walker wasn't shocked at Longclaw's strength, which granted him an opportunity for a swift finishing blow. On the other end, Aragorn countered and fought the troll for a while while not giving it any chance to crucially tag him.

Besides, even if you bring up this as a feat for Longclaw, Aragorn's sword Anduril (formerly Narsil) is more than a match for it.

It sliced off Sauron's finger in it's weaker state, and since then it's been reforged only becoming more potent.

Nor is he incapable of fighting fast fighters, even if they wield dual weaponry: I think you're not giving this fight enough credit. Karl is much faster than most of the people Aragorn had to fight. Most of Aragorn's opponents moved around sluggishly/awkwardly in their armors, making it easier to get his slices in. Karl on the other hand isn't limited by such factors and has his full speed open to him, which Jon was able to match. Not only this, but Karl also was dual wielding, making this even better due to the immediate threats in both hands.

Karl is fast for ordinary standards but the combat speed was not equal by any means in that, which is a complete bluff to even remotely suggest. Karl was countering Jon's attempts nigh effortlessly and threw him around with ease. Dual wielding doesn't make you faster, only more dangerous to an extent, and it certainly isn't a surprising technique to Aragorn considering most of the Orcs utilize it and rarely carry a single broadsword and/or a shield.

The thing is Karl applies his quickness well against people who fell short in comparison, and due to his lack of showings in the midst of a full on battle (especially since the Nights Watch men are a joke compared to the Orcs), it's unreliable to consider him any faster than an average Orc troop since the circumstances under which both perform differ greatly. It's only easy for Aragorn to get his attacks in because he's the best at what he does, and to call the Orcs and the like sluggish is a generalization which can be proved wrong if you watch throughout the full battle scenes I've posted. They're fast, fast enough to often match and outmaneuver the men and Elves of Middle Earth, Karl's speed is still decent but there's zilch to take him to the next level.

Just for getting a better glimpse of Aragorn's speed, if you're still not convinced.

• 1:50 - 1:58 - Quite literally kills eight Orcs in 8 seconds, which required killing a couple of them simultaneously in one hit.
• 4:00 - 4:07 - One hit kills two Orcs, and then as soon as he's attacked from behind, he counters it and effortlessly snaps an Orc's neck.

So, they're humiliated in the same fashion that everyone else in Middle Earth humiliates them in?

They can say whatever they want to about the Uruk-Hai, but if they die just as easily as the previous orcs it remains more or less the same. I mean, it's not like they seem to go down difficultly... a lot of the ones I see take one slice and just keel over.

Totally, which is why it requires the main characters, Elves, and Ents (who had to flood Isengard) to completely dispatch them. Obviously, they'll be defeated in a similar to fashion to how the Orcs are, but the difference is it requires stronger forces to thoroughly cleanse them out for the most part. Gimli stated "this is no rabble of mindless orcs, these are Uruk-Hai. Their armor is thick, and their shields broad", and wouldn't simply say it for the sake of nothing.

Which is all the better for Aragorn's case, seeing how easy it was to stomp dozens of them.

Lurtz I will agree was a good opponent, and Jon would be hard-pressed to take him on in a straight-out fight. But then again, Aragorn almost died there as well or could have multiple times.

Jon really wouldn't have a shot in the first place, and sure Aragorn heavily struggled, which is meaningless since Jon will be easier to take care of.

Seriously, Jon is out of his league challenging Aragorn. He has nothing going for him beyond performing well enough against Wildling, Nights Watch fodder and then poorly against opponents with the slightest bit of combat speed, skill uniqueness and strength such as Karl, the White Walker and Styr. Aragorn has picked off foes who'd eat these folk for breakfast with ridiculous ease and thus possesses such an advanced level of battle skill and experience that Jon can't account for (even Aragorn's sword is stronger, lol, and with the backing strength from Aragorn's striking power Jon will be seeing stars after a sword collision). Hell, Jon doesn't even have a lot to suggest he'd have an easy break against an Unsullied or Dothraki Bloodrider in single combat, let alone ascending to the ranks of even Middle Earth's average warriors.

On top of all of this, Aragorn is far more physically robust in all aspects and can outlast Jon's stamina/endurance indefinitely, which is why I can't see Jon prevailing even once. Ghost won't suffice for covering up his disadvantages either since Aragorn has slain bigger and more dangerous creatures in his time. For Jon to even begin thinking about winning he'll have to rely on luck, which is a very limited and unreliable option to say the least.

Your move, matie ;P

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: Yeah man, I'm still working on completing the post, most of it's been done anyway it's just school's taking up a lot of my time recently.

It'll probably be up later on today or tomorrow for sure.

Cool

@saitamabro: Ugh, stop tagging me here.

If it's strictly film versions for the Wizards, the Conduits take it with little difficulty.