Pope052's forum posts

#1 Posted by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

@funsiized:

Dead Mans blood simply doesn't sate their hunger, but they can drink it just fine. As for Silver, Allison's favorite little token is a Silver Cross from Zeke. She wears it all the time. So, "Vamptonite" is not going to work, as we can tell, the vampires here and there are not the same save an allergy to wood and the Sun. As for the fact of the bullets, We are again, assuming Same and Dean have the chance to fire(Granted, they probably do) but Allison has functioned after getting shot Six times point blank, Even going so far as to be another vampire in a fight. I Think she will be fine.

Okay, Dead Man's Blood won't be effective then. However, I can still see the silver bullets putting her down - wearing a silver cross without issue doesn't mean she's taking any silver bullet. And just because the vampires are different from Supernatural and Blood Of Eden, does not automatically grant her immunity to everything that weakens or kills a Supernatural vampire - that's nothing but substandard and insufficient logic. Vamptonite is a unique mixture of a "Leviathan's Additive 3.0" and human blood, which as a side effect is fatally toxic to a vampire. So evidently, Allison has no answer to the effects of this, since the mixture exists solely inside Supernatural and there's no way to prove her resistance - therefore, Vamptonite coated bullets are certain to silence her.

Even if you could say Allison won't be killed by it, she'll still be paralyzed at the very least - perfect opportunity for them to stake and/or behead her. So when either of the Winchesters get their shot on her (and they will, i'll be explaining Dean's aiming skills with firearms momentarily), she'll be either most likely dead, or at minimum she'll be out for the count - allowing the brothers to stake her, and go two on one against the apparent glass cannon, Sydney.

Despite the fact she has many spells that could give the Winchesters trouble, there's seemingly nothing to suggest she could use these before a bullet meets her skull. Although Sam has a fair shot, it's really Dean who has the more consistent and better feats that display his skill with guns - mainly due to the training he was under from John Winchester at a young age. It was said by Dean that at the age of seven John was teaching him to shoot targets, and he bullseyed every one of them. Anyway, while injured, Dean accurately shot Azazel (who to my knowledge was usually capable of bullet timing) through the heart:

He faced Elias Finch (the Phoenix) in a close duel and managed to fire about half a second before Elias could:

With a crossbow, Dean was able to shoot a vampire initially from an unnoticeable spot and another while on the move:

And Dean managed to pull his sidearm out while his sniper was stuck, and shot a shapeshifting dog before it reached him:

I may research more episodes for some extra feats to add, but I think this should somewhat cover Dean's accuracy skills, more or less. I know Allison is faster than the Winchesters, however she will eventually have to get close in order to slice them in half - and she's certainly not fast enough to escape their sight. When that happens, Dean pulls the trigger, and she's done for. Sydney will be easier, considering she has seemingly no durability or ability to react to a bullet. Once she's gone, they can both focus their attention on Allison and Dean will be able to shoot her - i'll explain Sam's main position on the fight later.

Holy oil must be ignited, not exactly giving you that kind of time. Besides, assuming you can Ignite it, Sydney can control Flames(Pyrokenisis, remember?)

From what you've said, Allison really isn't fast enough to stop them before they can ignite a bottle. Sydney would also need to be able to show how well she can control flames and while in battle too - but she shouldn't even be able to cast a spell before Sam shoots her (I should note, i'm basing the argument off of assumption that Dean is mainly focusing on Allison and Sam on Sydney, both will still be using teamwork together as well though).

It shows Hew completely decimating a large group of rabids, and then she ends up fighting a Large, Seven foot Goliath that was able to punch through cars. While things get dicey at first, she ends up beating it, showing speed, Durability, Healing factor and Yes, shes stronger than a Rabid.

Alright, she's a lot stronger than most of the beings Sam and Dean have faced. Still, her speed is not too considerably above the fast creatures the brothers face either and they have the right gear/weapons to land the killing blow on her since she needs to get close to attack, and that's when I see the Winchesters spraying Allison with the Vamptonite bullets - that will simply just kill or paralyze her. But if she proves to be too difficult, that's where another plan commences.

Since both brothers are willing to do almost anything, are aware of how to become a vampire and are able get their hands on vampire blood, Dean will lessen the physical gap between them and Allison by turning himself into a vampire as well. Perhaps he won't be as strong, as fast or as durable, but the gap will be significantly shortened either way. This is a good plan for Dean, considering as a vampire he took out a vampire's nest by himself:

Plus, both Dean and Sam are aware of the cure - so after battle Dean can simply rid himself of vampirism. As for Sam, he should also be able to get his hands on some demons and extract their blood - so he too can go into battle hopped up on power. He will get a powerful degree of telekinesis and be able to toss around Sydney & Allison if they prove to be a difficulty, he was able to do this to Lilith:

And logically, neither of them should be alive. But I wont argue that. What I will argue is the fact that None of them simply cut the Winchesters in half. Allison has completely cut through a Tire and I have shown plenty of passages with her cutting through bodies.

Yes, but Dean's skill with a weapon is good enough to fire and shoot her once she gets close - since that's really her only way of attacking. Sam should be able to assist Dean against Allison as well, he can telekinetically grab the katana and break it, or pin Allison to the ground.

If you believe by any standard the Cass would actually Hurt dean, then we would have a problem. But i see your point. He can take Punch...cool, not helpful, but cool. Again, not really helpful, but cool. Ignoring the fact that Lucifer was literally playing with him. He could have literally snapped his fingers, but its whateve.

This is mainly in regards to the above scenario if Allison loses her katana, and the plausible case of Dean becoming a vampire should add to his durability in a hand to hand fight against Allison, along with his superior fighting skill shown when he cleansed the vampire's nest.

I disagree. The fact that the were taking those beatings is proof enough. Also, you are still making the flawed assumption that what harms your Supernatural vampires will harm Allison. Nope.

Again though, this logic isn't good enough, if Allison doesn't have anything to suggest she could resist it - she can't.

Neither did it mention that she strained. The point is, in a single leap she jumped Twenty feet. the only thing it mentions( that i left out due to laziness) is the fact that she "was careful to avoid the spikes on the other end". you can't assume she didn't make the jump as casually. She did not I assume, but I did not state that. I said she casually jumped it. It was not hard. it was not a real effort. I believe that is the definition of casual. I only put in Kanins part to show that the trench was 20ft.

Since it didn't note anything on how good/easy/casual it was, yes, many assumptions can be made on either side.

Then you missed the passage i put in to show how fast Sarren is. the part where he blitzed a Master vampire and his Guards ring a bell? Being able to simply hit Sarren is a feat far and beyond anything the Winchesters have shown(to my knowledge)

It doesn't matter how fast Sarren is, because when she took the arm off of him, I didn't see it saying anywhere that he was using any significant speed.

I can understand that. I suppose. But besides the fact that Speed is inferred and she was able to Tag Sarren. She also once bested Kanin. Granted, she was freshly made and he was teaching her how to Handle her sword that she had just got, and was most likely going easy. It doesn't change the fact that it happened. I would give the passage, but it's in the first book that I put in storage. Take my word for it? If not them give me a week or so to get the book.

I'll take your word for it, though if he was going easy, it does change the variables of the feat against her favor. Besides, even if her speed proves to be a great issue against their odds of winning the battle - they're able to use the Rabbit's Foot. It's a cursed item that brings ridiculous luck to whoever possesses it, it allowed Dean to casually evade a bullet and he precisely lodged a pencil in a gun barrel too, among many other things. However, it is prone to getting lost from the owner, and if so their luck turns into bad. Sam and Dean are aware of this though, so they'll make sure to keep it close at all times.

It's a Teen Romance Novel. Not much to work with, but I will see what I can find. I know for a fact she was Trained By Ms Terwilliger to fight others. But only in aiming and shooting really.

Even though I don't see how Sydney is lasting more than a couple of seconds based on the fact that she won't be able to stop or react to a bullet they shoot, i'll counter what you said for Sydney's spells in bullet points, instead of quoting the whole lot:

  • Her aiming is decent enough I suppose, but that doesn't say anything about her reacting to a speeding bullet before she can do anything.
  • The familiar dragon is a nuisance, they'll easily be able to just shoot this.
  • Has her shield blocked bullets or at least something comparable to them before?
  • She needs to shout an incantation to blind the opponent, giving Sam enough time to shoot her.
  • It indicated that she could only enchant ice wherever she walked and she needed to perform hand arcs, Sam notices this, and bang.
  • The concussive force spell is good, but Sam's telekinesis is better.
  • "Should have encased her", so did it even work?
  • The metal transmutation spell is quite effective i'll admit, but it takes way time for her to perform, leaving the killing opportunity for Sam.

All of that is basically stopping them. Plus the Unnoticeable charm.

Not necessarily, Sam can take her out in no time to be honest.

and no proof it would even translate. Basically, She can Simply Blind or disorient The brothers while Allison takes their heads off.

Same as the Vamptonite argument, there's no proof she could resist this - but albeit I won't focus too much on this spell unless i'm in a tight space.

Apologies if this post appears somewhat rushed, I need to go out soon enough and I wanted to have something done before then. So I hope I gave you enough to work on, and I promise a proper fledged detailed post as my next one, your move.

#2 Edited by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

@funsiized:

Interesting opener mate, I can say that this is going to be a rough fight even for Sam & Dean - but even though Allison is by far their physical superior I will insist that the Winchesters still have enough brawn, brains, skill and experience to pull this one off. As far as character introductions go, Sam & Dean are two brothers that hunt almost any kind of supernatural entity you can think of, and they're ridiculously good at it by peak human standards. I know you're already well aware of this - so it's really only for reader's sake since not everybody watches or is knowledgeable on Supernatural.

The Winchesters have handled vampires and witches before, on top of numerous other entities/creatures who are more often much stronger. Albeit none of the Supernatural vampires/witches I have seen necessarily compare to Allison or Sydney, but since they're aware of that they will prepare more effectively and the standard knowledge is more efficient to them than to the girls. Anyway, considering how Sam & Dean consistently beat opponents that are well above them in physical aspects (countless demons, creatures, spirits, Zachariah, the three Horsemen, Lucifer, and so much more) - I don't see why the girls should be any big surprise to them. Anyway, i'll finish up on the overview and get straight to debate here - starting on what they'll be using for basics:

Basic Equipment/Gear:

  • Both are simply in their standard clothing, for example:

  • Loaded sawed-off shotguns for both w/ reasonable back up ammo.
  • Sam has a standard SD9 VE handgun & Dean has his trademark Colt 1911 also w/ reasonable back up ammo.
  • Sam has Ruby's Knife, Dean gets an Angel Blade and both get a small wooden stake for melee weapons.
  • They get a bottle this size containing a half/half mixture of Dead Man's Blood and Vamptonite.
  • Using another same sized bottle, they also each get a molotov of Holy Oil.
  • All ammunition consists of silver bullets.
  • The Impala is parked somewhere in the lot to their knowledge, packed with more weapons and gear that they could plausibly get their hands on.

That's mostly what their gear and weaponry consist of and i'll be using advanced equipment (that they could obtain) when needed. But i'll explain a couple of things, Vamptonite firstly, it's the most effectively plausible ways of taking out a vampire. By combining a mixture of Leviathan's corn syrup and human blood, a side effect is that it's extremely poisonous against vampires and kills them in the moment it enters their bloodstream. I see this as being one of the most viable ways Allison will go down, since it's a specific that she likely can't counter:

Moreover, Dead Man's Blood is well - blood extracted from a dead body. It's very effective against vampires and if their body comes into contact with it, they become paralyzed and lose all of their essential strength. Although it does wear off, it shouldn't matter here since both Sam and Dean are going to take on any chance they get to dispose of Allison in a vulnerable state. The Holy Oil is an effective fire used against angels - however I can see the fire effects at least being able to burn into Allison's skin, and lastly the silver bullets are the type of ammunition mostly attune to damaging vampires.

I know that you said Dead Man's Blood and silver bullets don't really affect her, I don't doubt that but i'd ask for solid proof if you don't mind. Otherwise, she can and will be killed by the Vamptonite - or at the very least endure a severe paralysis episode if she's lucky. Thus, this would granting Sam or Dean the easy opportunity to behead her or stab her in the heart with a wooden stake - while one or the other is fighting Sydney. Obviously, they're not going to try run up and throw the mixture at Allison - they'll play it smart and drizzle it on their bullets and melee weapons. But of course, I acknowledge that Allison is seemingly faster than your average Supernatural vampire, however i'd like to go over some of the things you said in regards to just that:

Next, i'll move onto Vampires, yea, know the Rabids? HAH Child's play, There are 3 types of vampires, type 1, type 2, type 3-type 1's are called masters, and they sire Type 2's. And type 2's sire Type 3's , but Type 3's always create Rabids when they attempt to turn another. To put it bluntly, As the number lowers, the Vamp gets stronger, a Type 2 would waste a Type 3 and a master could waste a type 2 unless the Type 2 had trained sufficiently And a type 3 could Take down 3 or 4 Rabids at once with little to no effort.

So we have established 1(Masters)>2>3>>Rabids Now, moving on

I'm sensing slight ABC Logic right here, is there any evidence to say that the ranking of vampires directly proportional to all of their physical attributes? I trust you do have some, but otherwise I don't see how a higher level of vampire would label them better at everything than the vampire a level below them - unless you're able to show and validate that, then I will concede. So yeah, I can't buy the argument that Allison is able to also tear off car doors just because she's a higher level than a Rabid, unless there's either feats or evidence that their attributes are parallel to their level.

Even if Allison is significantly physically stronger to a Rabid by feats, Sam and Dean have taken plenty of hits from beings possessing super strength. There's literally over a hundred feats of them tanking hits from supernatural beings - but the ones I can best place my mind on is Sam taking a full on blow from Jake Talley, one of Azazel's psychics who's gift was super-human strength, capable of doing things comparable to the Rabids from what I recall.

He plowed Sam through a fence and struck him a couple of more times, Sam was able to carry on and manage to beat Jake throughout the use of his tough endurance and superior skill - despite Jake being from the military himself and was stationed in Afghanistan before he was warped here:

I can't recall anything as good as that for Sam off the top of my head, but more feats for everything will come as I make more posts. As for Dean, he was able to take a rough beat down from Castiel, a being who is on another level in physicality by level and by several feats:

On top of that, he wasn't even knocked out after taking a plethora of hits from Lucifer:

So even by those feats alone Dean is definitely capable of tanking hits at least initially from Allison - Sam should be able too as well. Like I said, I will bring up more feats in terms of the other beings they've been enduring beat downs from for seasons after each feat you bring up for Allison, but overall i'd say Dean will be able to survive an up close and personal encounter with Allison, the katana will be trouble, but if they're close together he could just shoot it out of her hands and then blast her with the Vamptonite coated bullets and she'll be out like a light - maybe even extra damage will be received since the bullets are silver.

~there she covers 20ft in a casual leap after Kanin.

All it said was that she jumped over the trench, it didn't say how easy it was - nor that she equally replicated Kanin's jump.

-and basically go as mad ash she can on Sam and Dean. then it's a matter of Sydney supporting her with her spells, alone, Allison was capable of Slaughtering a group of Men.

Those men are seemingly featless and it read "laying where they had fallen, a couple in pieces, but most of them still alive", so she didn't slaughter them all. Perhaps unintentionally, but they were a group of cannon fodder - a feat even Sam and Dean could easily replicate at a blood lusted state.

And she was able to Take the arm off of Sarren- A Completely and utterly batSh**Crazy Vamp, that was able to to this to A Master vamp and his Guards-

So she was able to take the arm off of him, a decent strength feat but it didn't note on her using any significant speed to do that - unless I misread it. But anyway, while Allison may be faster than an average Supernatural vampire, but I don't see her being too fast for Sam & Dean to handle as her feats don't really speak too loudly - but i'll wait to see if you can maybe fill in any more. It's time to focus on Sydney more now, since I have been giving Allison too much attention, though I would see her as the bigger threat, but regardless let's continue.

In terms of using her magic abilities, how effectively and what feats does she have to support their use in a fight? The feat you posted for her invisibility type of spell was good - but she was only using that to hide and it didn't seem to be any fighting instance either. Since Sam & Dean have prior knowledge on her magic, they'll know more or less what type of spells to expect, but what's stopping them from one of them putting a bullet in her brain anyway? I'll await to see more of her feats - but my initial thoughts based on your post, makes me think of her as a glass cannon. Of course I could be wrong though, you'll need to prove that, Sam & Dean also know of a specific spell used to kill witches too, however it does require time and the right ingredients to do.

Alright, I guess i'll leave it at this for now, I didn't go into any detail but I will in my next post or whenever it needs to be done, but that'll depend on what you have to say, your move mate ;)

#3 Edited by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen:

And what I meant to say; is that assuming Natasha has no weapons, and neither does Batman (armour included though), he'd win. If we assume, a ''battle with no gear'' then I would not really deem it 'Batman' but instead 'Bruce Wayne'. However, it is incredibly difficult to ignore certain showings (such as withstanding punishment with the armour on) and not apply that to Batman. On the topic of gauntlets, I do not really think he'd attempt to use them, they only acted as a plot device.

Fair enough, i'd still argue that Natasha will be able to wear down Batman like Bane did in their first fight except through avoiding his hits. Bane managed to make a couple of cracks in a pillar once, but they're not pillar busting punches like you said before - since that term is used for describing someone who can break or at least mostly damage an object with a single blow, Bane only dented it mainly out of anger and because Batman busted his mask.

Black Widow jabbed her fist into the back of a Chitauri's neck in a struggle, and booted one pretty hard off of it's aircraft:

So I would say Black Widow hits hard enough to damage Batman in general, her skill combined with her superior speed/agility gives her the edge in a hand to hand fight over Batman. He may be able to hit harder his armor makes him more durable, but Black Widow still has what it takes to keep up with him in close quarters skill fight, take the least amount of hits while she's able to hit Batman more, and she can definitely tank hits herself if it comes to that. Batman isn't as fast to tag her consistently, he is better skilled and strikes harder - but he isn't as easily agile as Black Widow is that makes her fight better.

Again, it depends on which Batman you're referring to, Batman Begins/Dark Knight puts up a fight but loses, The Dark Knight Rises gets demolished.

Batman was losing to Bane, correct. However, that was because Batman chose to fight him toe-to-toe, and that was the only way he could've beaten Bane. He needed to fight him close, tank his shots (Bane being much stronger than Bruce), stand up to Bane and return with his own to have any real chance of getting the opportunity to clip his mask.

Alright, but I still don't see Batman's showings against Bane allows him to edge out against Natasha - the lack of speed and skill displayed overall in the Dark Knight Rises are the main reasons due to him being out of action for years/leg injury hindering his capabilities.

Again, I disagree in regards to the batsuit, the discussion just becomes Bruce Wayne vs Black Widow if that is the case; rather than his Batman persona, however in regards to durability, after fighting Bane and tanking his shots, Talia stabbed Batman between the plates (something which Lucius said the suit had no defence for) and he shrugged off the stab wound a few minutes later (essentially forgetting about it for the progression of the plot). He also healed years worth of injuries in an underground prison in a mere matter of months to perfection, so I do question whether it was the suit that effectively withstood Bane's shots or Bruce's own natural durability (given there are two instances of his durability still being up to par).

Yeah I concede to the armor/gear argument, but his stab wound is a different type of damage soak for one which, can't be compared to Bruce tanking blunt force strikes from Bane. And Batman didn't heal his injuries by himself - he was helped in the prison to fix the dislocation in his back. So it was more so the suit that allowed him to be taking the hits from Bane, and even with it I still say Natasha is capable of damaging him anyway.

  • Despite the encounter with Hulk, Hulk's backhand did almost nothing to her. She instantly recovered from it as if nothing had happened, thus almost no damage was visibly taken
  • You bring up the fallen debris yet immediately after that part, she was still capable of directly out-running The Hulk. There are several instances in the 2008 film and the 2012 Avengers film to which the same version of Hulk was running/moving at superhuman running speeds (lower level Mach speeds). If the debris hurt her so badly, then why was she able to out-run a Hulk that is super-human in comparison to human speed and still aim-dodge Hawkeye's rather easily at a small distance? Because she did not seem hurt as soon as she got back up
  • I agree in some regards that the experience was rather trauamatic, but not to the point where it hindered her in the entire fight (she was taken off guard as the fight begun)
  • She may have holden back, however that does not mean she held back her speed
  • It wasn't a lot of damage I agree, but it was still something that quite noticeably shook her up.
  • The debris made her partially limp, but Hulk was uncontrollable in the SHIELD hellicarrier since he was confined to a tight space and his anger got the best of him. In the 2008/Avengers instances, he was mostly able to control his actions, and he was too big to run through the tunnel like Black Widow so he needed to break the structures in his way. And just because Hulk has showings of running that fast, doesn't mean he always does.
  • It didn't significantly hinder her against Clint, but it's a consideration nonetheless.
  • It kind of does, because she uses her effective speed against opponents she is determined to beat/kill without question.

The area was rather tightly spaced and thus agility was negated (however, the security guard fight scene was perfectly stipulated for agility); the area still allowed her to use speed and maneuever around Hawkeye. The Hawkeye fight is the only real valid showing, outside of general fodder that Widow has in terms of H2H, the point I'm raising from this fight is that she was visibly slower against someone who clearly had skill (thus, speed against fodder does not necessarily means it perfectly translates against someone of skill, which was also the case in the TDK trilogy).

But she was only visibly slower against Hawkeye because she was influenced by the many factors I stated, thus this really can't be translated into being slower against Batman or the "faster only against cannon fodder" argument, coupled with the area being a tight space and she was still able to maneuver well.

She used a shocking device however some of her rather generic gear was enough to incap the security guards (simply spraying one in the face); the fight was a good showing however I do not buy that those physicals can translate against someone of a higher/more established skill level + exceeding her in several stats. In T.W.S, she used some stealth, and took on two with skill before using a metal bar to KO him which was a relatively good showing.

She used the shocking device on the first guard and sprayed the last one - every other guard she took out was by using hand to hand skill and her speed (she also did use a small smoke bomb once, but she still knocked them out by using skill plus maneuverability). Her mobile advantages should very well able to be translated against Batman - because he doesn't fight as fast, as agile/maneuverable, hits hard enough, and Natasha is considerably skilled herself.

Fodder is fodder but I do not maintain the view that a thug equates to a ninja. Batman's showings over the course of the trilogy not only had him non-fodder opponents, but saw him take out Ninja's, SWAT and multiple Mercanaries without the aid of equipment (in the case of SWAT, he did disarm and mostly fight H2H). Black Widow may have looked more fluid but that does not make her better, looking better simply means her style was more aesthetically pleasing. Batman still disposed of his fodder alebit it looked more brutal.

I think you're mixing up Hit-Girl again, Black Widow never fought thugs to my knowledge. She fought fodder just as comparable to the fodder Batman fought, but i'm basing this off of skill showings against those fodder. To which Natasha consistently is faster than Batman's standards, enough to make a difference in battle against him. And I never said Natasha's skill looks better, but her movements/agility/speed always do and are better than Batman's.

Again, it seems we are debating two different things; in regards to gear, I still question whether it was the armour tanking the shots considering it was shown twice in the film that his normal body was already at high-level durability.

Already noted on, forgive any future statements to the armor/gear argument if there is any.

Fighting toe-to-toe with Bane (who was much stronger than Bruce), getting stabbed between the plates, shrugging it off and taking a bomb away from a city (while shrugging off that much damage), or beating a SWAT team, thrawting Joker's plan, getting shot, then falling from a building and running away, are rather good showings.

Alright, but the stabbing instance was like I said, non applicable to hand to hand combat. I don't see how the rest of what you said matters such as beating a SWAT Team or thwarting the Joker's plans, getting shot is good but he was downed for a significant amount of time, and barely managed to take Harvey off the building. I'd also consider him running away after he fell the same as the stabbing instance - simply so the plot could carry on.

I may have to agree to disagree with you on TDKR, as I think we see differently to what level Bruce was truly at.

Fair enough, but I think there's more evidence to support Batman being inferior in the Dark Knight Rises than not - especially because of Alfred's statement.

I do not really share that view. Ninja's were of a high skill level but atleast titles are assumed, Batman routinely stomped thugs and I do not place thugs to the same level of Ninja's. Now a slight problem with TDKR, was that some of the fodder fell over in the background for no reason (and I honestly think that's just bad editing/editing error) but aside from that they were referred to trained killers.

Even if we do consider who's fodder is better, Black Widow's fodder is more or less equal to Batman's - better so with a few Chitauri aliens.

I have done enough to cover that Widow's damage prior to Hawkeye was sueprificial (ergo, she tanked it pretty easily regardless is parts could be considered PIS). Batman's skill showings are good enough to fill the gap, Ra's is above anyone Widow actually fought, she was faster than him but I question to what degree if she hasn't truly been tested, Bane was slow in TDKR yet atleast he looked somewhat fast against fodder sceurity guards in TDKR (to which Alfred made note of his speed), Batman looked fast against thugs, etc, thus I do not find it reliable that she can retain that level of speed against an opponent that exceeds her in skill (to a more defined level) and has several physical advantages (strength, striking power, durability). Hawkeye's fight against Widow is actually slower than Bruce's fights against the Ninja's if we really look at it, but her fight with Hawkeye is the only fight she's had with someone of an assumed skill level. I'm arguing with his armour (no gauntlets) because that's what he opereats in as Batman.

I don't mean to counter this poorly, but I believe all of these points are a combination of what has already been broken up into different parts and discussed.

I don't really think it's too notable, it seems like an OK feat but simply getting knocked away can't really be cited as impressive IMO, unless it was an actual punch (which I would still disagree with).

It's more so that she was pretty shaken by the encounter, it's not impressive for durability but it's also not completely useless either.

#4 Posted by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

Kessler is an amped up and more experienced Cole, he stands a better chance than you guys think.

Cole isn't comparable to Doom, though.

#6 Posted by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

He loses against Cole hard, he might have a better chance on Kessler - but I can't see him taking a strong majority.

#7 Edited by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

Allison Sekemoto & Sydney Sage

Represented By - Funsiized:

VS

Sam & Dean Winchester

Represented By - Pope052:

Location:

Conditions:

  • Feats for Sam & Dean are up to and including those from Season 7.
  • Feats for Allison & Sydney can be used from throughout the series, mostly.
  • Both sides have standard knowledge on one another.
  • Prep & Equipment will be exhibited as we go along, and both teams have access to anything as long as they can obtain and carry it.
  • Both sides are moral-less and blood lusted. Their fighting and intelligence standards aren't hindered in any way, they're just very willing to kill.
  • Win by Death, or KO.

Challenge A Viner Rules:

  • Do not start extra illegal arguments, general opinions, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
  • If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
  • It's appreciated if there's no early judgments are made on the outcome of the battle, one should always wait and witness the debating quality and abilities of everyone involved before jumping to early conclusions.
  • Give at least one reason for a vote, and the scoring will be set to ten but may be changed.
  • Regular posting/commenting is fine.
  • As always, may the best man win.
#8 Posted by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen:

When I refer to H2H, I will state that I intended feats in armour/gauntlets due to the fact that the vast amount of showings are in armour.

I meant to say that I think Batman would only ever had an edge in battle over Natasha since the armor allows him to tank most of her hits and he'd be able to deal extra damage to her with the use of his gauntlets. I didn't mean to imply that we should only count Batman's hand to hand feats without the armor and/or the gauntlets - because that wouldn't be fair. However, these fall under the gear category and if we say "a battle with no gear", Batman's armor and gauntlets on their own shouldn't be included, but the feats Bruce has accomplished in hand to hand w/ them can still be factored into the debate.

It's just like you said, the reason Batman beat Bane was because of the gauntlets allowing him to break Bane's mask, but otherwise Bane was winning and should have beaten Batman, so the same should also apply to Natasha since his armor/gauntlets should be out of the question.

Since the Bat Suit is labeled gear, they shouldn't be included when we're discussing a hand to hand debate, only feats Batman has accomplished by skill when he used them can be reasoned into it - but not tanking Bane's hits because' that's including a feat that was solely due to the armor, not Batman's own natural durability. This applies to Black Widow too, but her suit doesn't provide for much extra defense.

I will note that the space was tighter than other spaces, aside from that, I do find the Hulk scene to be PIS. Given, we have to factor in that it did happen, she tanked the punch rather fine and escaped. She was still fast enough to aim-dodge an arrow, Hawkeye's skill gave her problems and he was able to engage her in H2H skill, what is noticable about the scene is that she was slower against a skilled fighter than she was security guard fodder. I do not really agree with Batman either --- Batman tanked Bane's pillar busting punches, got stabbed inbetween the plates via Talia's knife and a few minutes later, he was fine.

But as I said later in my post, the Hulk didn't flat out strike her - he swooped her which knocked her to the side, and it wasn't anything nearly forceful enough to consider her able to "tank a hit from the Hulk" as many describe it to be. Anyway, that's one among the other considerations I noted on that held back Natasha from fighting to her regular/best standards. Her leg was injured by fallen debris, she was noticeably traumatic after hiding/running from Hulk, followed by Hulk knocking her aside, and then considering the relationship between Clint & Natasha, she didn't treat him brutally like any other cannon fodder.

Hawkeye also couldn't hold back if he tried because he was Loki's puppet at the time. Despite this and most of all the other variables that affected Natasha's actual battle capabilities, their fight was mostly equal in all aspects- and she was still able to maneuver around the tight space area they were in. So really, you can't use the fight to say "Natasha was slower against Clint than she was regular fodder", because there's so many factors that influenced the situation.

In Iron Man 2, she used shocker devices against Security Guard fodder (whom Batmwn would not have any problem with), in T.W.S she used more advanced technology and alternated with the Mercanaries on the boat and against the Chitauri, many went down with gun-shots. You've acknowledged Batman is more skilled, which I agree with, however Batman's advantages in a pure H2H fight not only come with his already superior skill, it's substantiated with:

Better showings against fodder, which consisted of Ninja's, SWAT and Mercanaries Stronger, strikes harder and is more durable Endurance Posesses the speed to tag her and engage her in open combat

She only used the shocking device as an initial attack - the rest of that fight was displays of speed, her notable skill, how good her movements are, and what little effort it was for her to accomplish. In the Winter Soldier, again she only used a taser as a once off attack, and she defeated three other soldiers purely by hand to hand combat. In the Avengers, I already admitted that she was mostly using guns, but that's because it was she was up against an entire alien army on ground with only Captain America to assist her, of course she would have used her equipment.

You couldn't honestly say Batman would have decided to take them all in a battle of skill and hand to hand if he only had Bane helping him - he would have absolutely used his equipment. Anyway, I disagree with what you listed for Batman's advantages in hand to hand, reasons to follow:

  • Fodder is fodder, they're featless and skill can't actually be shown, it at best can only be assumed. However in regards to Black Widow, she actually looks better against her fodder comparable to ones Batman fought, including hired guards, soldiers, and advanced aliens.
  • He strikes harder yes, but he isn't any more durable without armor - which like I said is gear, but we're debating pure hand to hand. Black Widow hits hard enough to hurt Bruce, and she is able to soak the hits she'll receive, but he won't be able to land nearly as consistently as Natasha will.
  • What relevant feats of endurance help him in a straight up fight against Black Widow?
  • It depends what Batman is used, because it's been proven by both showings and Alfred's statement that he's inferior in the Dark Knight Rises prior to his injury and at his best stage in Batman Begins/The Dark Knight. The former can tag her but she's still fast enough to keep a solid advantage and skilled enough to keep up with him. But the latter would be absolutely wrecked, she's much faster, can use her skill more efficiently, and moves better.

That's because the tier of canon fodder she fought was of a much lower standard. I cite the Hawkeye fight because that's literally the only prolonged fight she had against someone of actual skill and her speed wasn't as fast, it's moreso her agility in large, open light spaces which allowed her to maneuever. With Batman, we have reliable feats against Ra's Al Ghul and Bane (the latter can be cited for strength/durability feats).

I think I have covered both points made here, the tier of cannon fodder is irrelevant because cannon fodder is featless and skill is assumed, nothing can be shown that'd actually make someone have "better fodder". And the fight with Hawkeye has also been explained, Black Widow was influenced by a lot of things in that fight including a somewhat damaged leg, slight post trauma after the encounter with the Hulk, the fact that it was Clint - and wasn't holding back.

Mid-way they state Wushu has existed for a very long time whereas Keysi is new. I also do not see why his skill showings aren't enough to combat her considering his skill showings are more reliable (e.g. against Ra's Al Ghul), who is far more skilled than Hawkeye. Hawkeye's skill level was enough to make Widow work, and making Widow work did actually negate a lot of Widow's speed and forced her to utilize more skill (she resorted to sucker-punching him, alebit it was a legitimate win nonetheless). Batman's skill showings, factoring in Widow's showing against Hawkeye strongly suggest that enough skill can negate a physical advantage such as speed. And in regards to her speed, looking fast against security guards are cool but Batman also looked fast against fodder thugs in Batman Begins, it's not very hard to.

I cited TDKR to demonstrate Batman's durability and one scene in which he aim-dodged.

The references to Hawkeye has been exhibited twice now, Batman's skill showings I said are better - but they aren't enough to fill the gap of Widow's superior speed and movements - on top of her decent skill she possesses herself. Black Widow is an opponent much faster, more agile and more maneuverable than Batman could ever be or an opponent he has ever come to hand to hand terms with. Hawkeye was both fast and pretty skilled - maybe not as skilled as Bruce, but he was able to fight faster than Bruce has shown to - and in a tight space too. That's really the only valid occurrence Black Widow had trouble fighting a skilled/fast opponent, Batman is better skilled but he isn't as fast nor would this battle be in the likes of the SHIELD's piping areas.

His durability is only thanks to his armor which is apart of his gear, and can't be considered into a hand to hand fight where we're discussing a scenario where no gear is allowed. If we allow Batman's armor and gauntlets, Black Widow should also be allowed her equipment to be fair - but she easily wins with that.

If this holds true then the showing is completely overblown.

Yes, she didn't tank a powerful punch, but she was at least able to handle being knocked aside by him - which is notable enough.

#9 Edited by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen:

In pure H2H (with his Kevlar, etc included), I think he wins the majority based on feats. I'll also bring up that speed-wise, she looked much slower against Hawkeye than she did other opponents (still fast, but not as fast).

The fight with Hawkeye was in a tight space not very ideal for her fighting style, but there wasn't any noticeable gap in speed - Natasha was able to maneuver better than Clint could too. You also must consider that right before their fight her leg was hurt after being caught in heavy debris after the arrow explosion, she was hiding and running in fear against the Hulk and she was smacked aside by him too. Afterwards, she was partially traumatized - on top of the fact that she didn't intend to fight Clint like anybody else where as he was mind controlled and couldn't hold back.

A lot of variables factor into that scene in regards to Black Widow, replace her with Batman and he wouldn't be fighting up to standard either.

Her showings against people mostly involved gear and tech. Batman has more pure H2H showings against higher-tier opponents. Results wise, Batman has better showings. Aesthetically he wasn't doing back-flips like Widow did but his skill was more lethal and methodical.

Not necessarily, in Iron-Man 2 she only used her shocking devices once, the rest was hand to hand showings. In the battle for New York of course she would resort to mostly use her equipment - the Avengers were up against the Chitauri army. Every other occurrence was feats demonstrating her hand to hand skill, speed and movements. Batman is more skilled, I never argued against that, but not sufficient enough to negate Natasha's good enough skill - but advantages in her much superior combat speed, agility, plus her maneuverability. Those advantages allow her to top Bruce in pure hand to hand combat in my books, and by pure I mean no factoring in armor for Batman - nor gauntlets.

She may not have beaten opponents as good on paper as good as Batman, but this mostly exhibits how her speed excels over Batman's:

Sure it was cannon fodder, but her speed capabilities are much better than Batman's speed showings against fodder. And that's only if we're talking Batman Begins/Dark Knight Batman, because Bruce in the Dark Knight Rises is inferior compared to himself prior to the leg injury thus cannot be factored into the Dark Knight Rises Batman. All the leg brace did was fix his leg, his skill, speed and overall mobility didn't return as well, shown and stated by Alfred.

Widow used Wushu, the video below makes reference of Wushu but states why they chose NOT to use that style.

Alright, mind pointing me out to whereabouts they state it, and why does it matter in regards to Natasha at least? Again, I agree that Batman is more skilled either way - but it's not enough to counter Widow's superior and consistent speed, movement, and combined skilled showings. Also, that video is for Batman Begins, meaning you're not able to translate this into the Dark Knight Rises, since you've referred to feats from this version by bringing up Bane.

And the Hulk showing is clear-cut PIS.

Not really, he didn't punch her, he only knocked her to the side and he didn't do it so hard either.

In regards to Bane, being at Natasha's level of speed/agility is incosequential against Bane because Black Widow cannot beat Bane due to his mask. Batman's method of fighting him inside and trading toe-to-toe was the best possible tactic (H2H wise).

Well firstly, Natasha is fast, skilled and mobile enough to edge out a hand to hand fight with Bane - she may not be able to hurt him, but he still takes damage and she is quick enough to not receive any fatal blow. I think if she can manage taking out a Chitauri on an aircraft, she won't be struggling much against a big opponent who isn't as fast, as maneuverable or as skilled as her on equal ground to begin with:

But i'd rather not detract into anything further on Bane - let's stick to the opponent at hand here, Batman.

@stormdriven said:

@pope052: Not gonna lie, that scene was really hot.

Indeed, indeed it was ;)

#10 Edited by Pope052 (3101 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324:

stomping three idiots vs stomping a whole gang of huge prisoners? Also IIRC she broke the chair at one point and then beat the rest of them.

It doesn't matter, both are cannon fodder and neither had any feats to speak of. By assumption, the hit men could have been highly trained professionals, but we won't rely on speculation instead of what was shown. The main guy asking the questions was in uniform - so he more than likely hired men capable of handing themselves to interrogate her. And since they were in the first place, they obviously knew she was an assassin or at least that she's trained.

Natasha was also struck across the face in the scene - and in fact we don't know how long she was interrogated before that either. She broke the chair after she took out two of them - so the majority of the fight was her being restrained and yet she handled business just fine:

Anyway in that right he showed great skill, pretty good combat speed, and strength. He also took two heavy punches at the beginning and didn't stay down.

It wasn't even as impressive as Natasha's above interrogation scene. She moved faster, fought faster, and was displaying skill just as good as Bruce's despite being physically inferior and tied to a chair. Not to mention, she didn't even have her suit like Batman did in most of his noteworthy feats. Black Widow was shoved aside by the Hulk, so Batman isn't the only one able to take a hit.

Besides his fight with Ra's I think that's his best hand to hand feat

I'll admit Batman is better skilled based on that - but Natasha's skill standards are enough to at the very least keep up in the aspect, and that's not even including her better speed or agility.