Pre-retcon or post-retcon Beyonder?

pre

Pre-Retcon Beyonder-Destroy Superman One Million

Post-Retcon Beyonder-Not to sure.

@homicidalmaniac: why?

@patrat18: SOM have lack of feats to challenge Pre Beyonder.

@patrat18:

Pre retcon beyonder?

Been done before, pr beyonder curb stomps. Pr beyonder WAS the TOAAs equal in power.

@thedarklordpandamonium: wow got any scans

beyonder wasn't equal to toaa.

@patrat18:

No version of Beyonder is TOAA. Internet Meme. Fantasy. Delusion. Made up. Exaggerations. Words that describe the idea that Beyonder is equal to TOAA. Its highly subjective since Superman is kind of featless. It is implied he is God. Or actually had the power of God or the Source in DC, a fraction of infinity is still infinite. That fact alone makes him infinitely superior to Beyonder.

@djangophile: oh so prime wins or what i have his stats

I am not sure I understand what " or what I have his stats" means. I apologize.

I support Superman 1 million. I think it is generally accepted ( at least in my case ) that he was actually using part of the supreme authorities power. I am not sure Beyonder was onmipresent like this version of Superman was. I always saw Beyonder as an entity that existed in the present time, but with access to move freely through time and space. I got the impression Superman 1 million WAS time and space. Being part of the Source should make him endlessly more potent than even PR Beyonder.

beyonder wasn't TOAA's equal, but he stomps SP1M that's for sure.

pre rec beyounder in a curbstomp.

Superman had some of the Source Wall in him, Beyonder auto loses. HOTU is > Pre Retcon Beyonder. The Source Wall is probably similar to HOTU, both are doorways to the supreme power of their universe. Since Superman had some of this Source within him, he will curbstomp Beyonder without needed to expend any effort. Beyonder was never infinite, incalcuable but not infinite. RIP Beyonder.

Ugh... Im starting to get tired for explaining this... PR Beyonder was TOAA equal in terms of omnipotence! He wasn't omnipresent nor omniscient because he's from the universe of the Beyonders... Not the Marvel-verse.... For the first and only time in comics... TOAA wasn't above someone in the Marvel-Verse but his equal. He was indeed omnipotent and as he said... Nothing will affect him if he doesn't want to...

The only reason PR Molecule Man fought with him is because his powers were given by the Beyonder himself when he opened that reality letting the Beyonder come to the Marvel-Verse... And he didn't beat him... More like fought for 2 minutes then got slap... And for the people that says TOAA>PR Beyonder because TOAA is Stan Lee and Jack Kirby thats not a factor in that logic because PR Beyonder is a representation of a writer/artist as well... He's no longer TOAA's equal because he got ret-con... But back then he was indeed omnipotent. With this said, its not practical to put omnipotent being against "nigh omnipotent" featless beings because Omnipotence will always be above everything and everyone, there's no chance for anybody to beat an omnipotent being.

PR Beyonder Murderstomps effortlessly. There are so many ways for him to beat him in a blink.

Lol at this... You are so uninformed its not even funny. *cheers*

Your lack of knowledge is yet more funny if you think someone is wrong when they are actually correct. Superman Prime 1 Million was acting with the Source Wall itself. Have fun re-reading and understanding your mistake.

1. Superman did most likely have a portion of the Sources power. You say different, you are mistaken.

2. The Heart of the Universe is a piece of TOAA from Marvel, its a small portion of his power or something similar. The Source Wall is also a part of the Presence, which is the TOAA of DC. You say different, you are mistaken.

3. Divine power resided inside the Source wall. Being with any % of TOAA/Presences power is indeed automatically the winner against a being like the Beyonder, whom can only speculate to be on par with Living Tribunal, who is in turn nothing compared to TOAA. You say otherwise, you are mistaken. Based on Feats alone, Beyonder would win. But, I don't have any fighting feats, this doesnt mean I can't kick the crap out of a toddler.

4. Beyonders power was never officially stated to be truly infinite. You say different, you are mistaken. Those who wrote the Wiki, and the wiki for comicvine are much smarter than you. None of them would agree to your view.

the source was beaten by 3 skyfathers, so no, it isn't similar to the heart of the infinite.

Really don't understand how is this even debatable.

beyonder isn't a representation of the writer, you're making things up, while TOAA is, which was proved on panel.

also, can you prove that the beyonder is omniversal, because the one above all is (check the glossary of terms)

give me one omniversal feat for the beyonder.

By your comments, i can see you're totally ignoring the facts... PR Beyonder is omnipotent while Superman Prime One Million is NOT... He needed Louis DNA to recreate her... Someone omnipotent would have done it within a blink without anything extra but a thought... Superman was below the Presence while PR Beyonder was TOAA's equal in terms of omnipotence... The Source lets you be omniscient... So its not like the HOTU... HOTU lets you acces a portion of TOAA's Power and lets you control the Marvel-Verse at will, obviously still being below TOAA himself. Superman Prime One Million wasn't controlling the DC universe at will and he couldn't stop a reality from being destroyed.

While someone with HOTU will just destroy, recreate, reform, stop, erase, alter, manipulate at will... Thanos ate all the comic entities, but he felt that achievement was empty and didn't fulfill him at last... So he reversed everything... So no... Superman Prime One Million is NOT above HOTU he's NOT above PR- Beyonder and he shouldn't be considered on that tier because he's featless... LT has feats to prove he's on that tier... PR Beyonder prove and stated he was indeed omnipotent. TOAA everybody knows... God dammit... even Zero Hour Parallax have better feats than Superman Prime One Million! My gosh cut the blindness and see the facts! They are mocking in front of you face!

Those are some of the feats of the plenty that has PR Beyonder to show how above of SP1M he is... Give me a break, you're just ignoring the facts because you fell into the speculation trap that character represents... N52 Spectre is above him as well... He is just not that powerful... i can say he's like the Mr. Satan of DC... Just a title... Not actual feats to support the title.

@ghostravage:

i like how you conveniently ignored my post and still claim that the beyonder is equal to TOAA, where in fact:

1. TOAA is the representation of the writer, which was shown on panel, while the beyonder is not.

2. TOAA is omniversal

3. beyonder's power got stolen by doom.

More-so, your argument about the beyonder is based on statements that say he is omnipotent right? if we go by this flawed logic then kubik is omnipotent as well:

this is just one random example off the top of my head, i can show you dozens of characters claiming that they are omnipotent (infinite power), so does this make all of them=TOAA?

so you can either counter my argument or you can stop claiming that the beyonder is equal to TOAA. That's not to mention your other speculations such as 'the source gives you omniscience' where are you getting this from?

How many years in the sun was SPM 1mill. was in?

The Beyonder

Didn't Supes Prime 1 million also require a green lantern ring to actually kill Solaris?

@rolldestroyer: First, i was writing my reply while you replied to me... You do know i need to refresh the page in order to see your comment...

Beyonder clearly destroys the multi-verse... He's not even from the Marvel-Verse but from the universe of the Beyonders. He is a omnipotent being just like TOAA and a representation as well, read his bio if you want... Nonetheless, he wasn't equal to TOAA at all matters, just in omnipotence... He wasn't omnipresent nor omniscient because the Marvel-Verse wasn't his creation. So Doom stealing hiss powers its understandable because he wouldn't know because he's not omniscient, nonetheless, Doom gathered information from his realm. He even said so in some panels, that he knows people will try to trick him to believe he has a weakness and be able to beat him. Its simple, if he doesn't believe he has a weakness, he doesn't...

What about that scan? It never said he was omnipotent but had infinite power... Also, do they have similar feats like Beyonder to even consider them worthy of calling themselves omnipotents? I believe LT its above everybody besides TOAA and he couldn't fight Beyonder because NOTHING in the Marvel-Verse will affect him, only Owen Reece who got his powers from him could give a fight, losing at the end.

BTW: After his creator, Jim Shooter, left Marvel, writer-editor Tom DeFalco, displeased with Shooter's tenure at Marvel, re-tooled the Beyonder and altered his origin. He was no longer omnipotent as many initially believed, being an incomplete Cosmic Cube, with less raw power and the same limitations of a complete cube. I know its wiki info but its reliable enough for me. There's no need of downgrading his powers when he clearly said and proved he was BEYOND anybody in the Marvel-Verse.

@rolldestroyer: Beyonder showed the power to wipe out Multiverses. What has Superman Prime ever do to boast a equal claim?

Heck pre Beyonder killed Death itself throughout the Omniverse. Even tho Living Tribunal was there had no say what Beyonder did. LT < TOAA and yet Pre Beyonder < LT. Go figure.

Even Watcher said Owen had the most potential out of the pictures shown, including Living Tribunal, to beat Pre Beyonder. He was a threat to the Multiverse of Marvel. He still beat down Owen and did what he wanted. Killing Death throughout Marvel.

Then the entire Marvel Cosmic top tier had no way to bring her back at all, Guess who did and was depowered a bit? Beyonder.

Owen Reece is only so powerful becuase he access the power of the Beyonders Universe.

This guy has been stated by the highest powers in Marvel as a Multiversal buster, killer, threat, and Golden Superman just does not have the feats to compete to say he is equal much less superior.

@cadencev2: Well, TOAA is said to be Stan Lee. And Superman Prime 1 Million is said to be a 4th Dimensional being. And Mr. Mxy was a 4th dimensional being who once entered into the real world and confronted the DC writers, which means Superman Prime 1 Million can do the same thing, and because he can do that that means he can also beat up Stan Lee in the real world, and therefore that means Superman Prime 1 Million wins because he's stronger than both the Presence and TOAA.

I don't see any flaws in this argument, therefore SP1M wins.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Exactly, that's all SP1M... Empty titles with no feats to back it up... And for that simple reason... He shouldn't even be considered on Eternity lvl... Mxy atleast have feats to prove his position on DC list, however, SP1M has feats an average Adult Franklin would be able to do...

@ghostravage:

show me beyonder being the representation of the writer like TOAA is (right to left)

Gallery

see what i mean?

and what omniversal feats does the beyonder have?

@cadencev2 said:

@rolldestroyer: Beyonder showed the power to wipe out Multiverses. What has Superman Prime ever do to boast a equal claim?

Heck pre Beyonder killed Death itself throughout the Omniverse. Even tho Living Tribunal was there had no say what Beyonder did. LT < TOAA and yet Pre Beyonder < LT. Go figure.

Even Watcher said Owen had the most potential out of the pictures shown, including Living Tribunal, to beat Pre Beyonder. He was a threat to the Multiverse of Marvel. He still beat down Owen and did what he wanted. Killing Death throughout Marvel.

Then the entire Marvel Cosmic top tier had no way to bring her back at all, Guess who did and was depowered a bit? Beyonder.

Owen Reece is only so powerful becuase he access the power of the Beyonders Universe.

This guy has been stated by the highest powers in Marvel as a Multiversal buster, killer, threat, and Golden Superman just does not have the feats to compete to say he is equal much less superior.

you misunderstood me, im, in no way, arguing that SP1M wins this, beyonder is on a whole another level, im arguing that beyonder isn't equal to TOAA.

the mistake in your post is that you can't use omniverse and multiverse interchangeably, i think you recall the definition of the omniverse which killemall provided to you a few months ago which was from the OHOTMU #16 (2005)

in a quasar issue, the omniverse is defined as being several multiverses:

thus beyonder isn't omniversal, he is multiversal.

@rolldestroyer: Beyonder WAS equal to TOAA before his power was retconned during Secret Wars IIRC. It's been awhile since I've read any classics, @killemall is the man to go to for stuff like that.

However, eventually he became no more powerful than a cosmic cube.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@floopay:

im very well aware of that, i know that he was extremely powerful in secret wars, however, he is a character is he not? TOAA isn't a character (not exactly) he is the representation of the writer, didn't you see how they represented jack kirby as TOAA in the scans i posted from fantastic four 511?

also his power was retconned in fantastic four annual issue 26 i believe, which is the issue from where the kubik scan (which i posted above) comes from. Secret wars is when he was nigh omnipotent.

PR beyonder is a representation as well... Tom Defalco stated it in a interview i think, the only difference is maybe TOAA was stated in the comics rather than outside the comics like PR Beyonder. He was indeed omnipotent and was equal to TOAA in those terms... The only difference between them is TOAA is a supreme being in the Marvel-Verse due to it being his creation while PR Beyonder its limited to his knowledge about the Marvel-Verse... With this said, he's omnipotent, not omnipresent nor omniscient because he's outside of his creation.

link me to this interview, otherwise, im not buying it.

also, you still haven't provided omniversal feats for the beyonder. And please, refrain from posting multiversal feats, ive read them and seen them hundreds of times. Unless you have an on panel feat (which im pretty sure doesn't exist) that has the word 'omniverse' in it, don't post it.

as for TOAA, he's the creator of the omniverse:

ive already posted the full page in post #20 , this is an edited image so you might see it clearer (source: mighty avengers most wanted files)

so now we have:

1. TOAA being the representation of the writer, beyonder isn't

2. TOAA is omniversal, beyonder isn't.

so you have 2 things to prove now, only then can the beyonder be considered as TOAA's equal. If you don't have the proof (which is the most likely outcome) then you'll have to accept the evidence whether you like it or not.

btw, i really don't even want to comment about beyonder being omnipotent, yet not omnipresent and omniscient. That's just.......don't know what to say.

@rolldestroyer said:

@ghostravage said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@floopay:

im very well aware of that, i know that he was extremely powerful in secret wars, however, he is a character is he not? TOAA isn't a character (not exactly) he is the representation of the writer, didn't you see how they represented jack kirby as TOAA in the scans i posted from fantastic four 511?

also his power was retconned in fantastic four annual issue 26 i believe, which is the issue from where the kubik scan (which i posted above) comes from. Secret wars is when he was nigh omnipotent.

PR beyonder is a representation as well... Tom Defalco stated it in a interview i think, the only difference is maybe TOAA was stated in the comics rather than outside the comics like PR Beyonder. He was indeed omnipotent and was equal to TOAA in those terms... The only difference between them is TOAA is a supreme being in the Marvel-Verse due to it being his creation while PR Beyonder its limited to his knowledge about the Marvel-Verse... With this said, he's omnipotent, not omnipresent nor omniscient because he's outside of his creation.

link me to this interview, otherwise, im not buying it.

also, you still haven't provided omniversal feats for the beyonder. And please, refrain from posting multiversal feats, ive read them and seen them hundreds of times. Unless you have an on panel feat (which im pretty sure doesn't exist) that has the word 'omniverse' in it, don't post it.

as for TOAA, he's the creator of the omniverse:

ive already posted the full page in post #20 , this is an edited image so you might see it clearer (source: mighty avengers most wanted files)

so now we have:

1. TOAA being the representation of the writer, beyonder isn't

2. TOAA is omniversal, beyonder isn't.

so you have 2 things to prove now, only then can the beyonder be considered as TOAA's equal. If you don't have the proof (which is the most likely outcome) then you'll have to accept the evidence whether you like it or not.

btw, i really don't even want to comment about beyonder being omnipotent, yet not omnipresent and omniscient. That's just.......don't know what to say.

Umm... I'll try to find it but i don't promise anything...

Anyway i'll state again what i've said... TOAA is the supreme being of the Marvel-Verse with this said he has control over all the universes of his creation. However, Beyonder its NOT his creation and its an omnipotent being by himself... You won't see omniversal feats because he wasn't aware of all the universes of the Marvel-Verse... CadenceV2 even posted the moment he started to study the Marvel-Multiverse... Something some panels later got destroyed in an instant... with this said, im going to state again, PR Beyonder=TOAA in terms of omnipotence which makes TOAA unable to defeat his equal in power which makes PR Beyonder unbeatable in the Marvel and DC Verse... Beyonder is only limited by the knowledge he has about the Marvel-Verse... The same will happen if TOAA is put on the Universe of the Beyonders... He won't know anything about it but will keep his omnipotence...

Thought so.

so.......nothing? no proof? Predictable. Not going to reply since you stated the same thing in your previous post which i already countered

@djangophile:

It was implied he was a god or like a god, Odin is a god, Zeus is a God, even Thor and Hercules are gods or part gods.

Sp1m is no where near the level of beyonder the only beings I've seen able to match the guy was Thanos with THOTU, possibly dr solar and the lady that came from the infinity gems. The presence from DC has never been seen iirc, the source is just a part of the presences power and sp1m had only a small. part of that. Darkseid achieved more of the source in final crisis. In DC one million superman was still just defending the solar system, granted I believe he had galactic power but it was never shown, and he still needs a yellow sun for his power. Please don't try to make this argument to anybody else after you saw the scans yourself

nemesis? no, i dont think she can.

presence has plenty of appearances, most recently in the new 52 phantom strange series.

I don't know what proof you want me to show you... He already did things NO ONE in the Marvel-Verse has managed to do. And you still want proof, can you be more accurate to which proof do you want? He destroyed a Multi-Verse in rather effortlessly yet you want him to destroy the omniverse to be considered a omniversal threat... That's not clever and you are ignoring the facts. I already told you he's limited to what he knows about the Marvel-Verse which implies maybe he didn't have full knowledge about the Marvel-Verse which means you won't find any omniversal destruction in his career... But that doesn't take away the potential he has to do so... he only needs to know about them.

Don't reply to me if you want, but you are just forcing your win through by discarding feats that already proves he is omnipotent.

Beyonder takes this with ease. TOAA is the absolute supreme power in the Marvel universe, the Beyonder is not equal at all. TOAA is the writers therefore TOAA has the power over everything including Beyonder. Whether or not TOAA chooses to interact is another story.

Beyonder was nigh-omnipotent, not really omnipotent. He himself claimed to be omnipotent, but then again so did Odin once-upon-a-time. So it's hard to justify what claims are valid and which are not.

Beyonder was confused as to himself and exactly what he was, much the same way Owen Reece was. He couldn't remember where the lines of what he created and what existed began and ended. Initially he was intended to be omnipotent, which was sort of proven within the same conflicts previously stated. He was so all-knowing, thathe no longer knew what was reality and what was his reality. Things could exist because he thought them to exist, and they could cease to be, or have ever been, with little more than a thought.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@ghostravage:

this is getting repetitive......c'mon, what proof do i want? seriously? to quote myself:

you haven't provided proof for either, but the most dangerous thing about your post is this:

you can't even differentiate between the omniverse and the multiverse, so i guess i shouldn't be surprised........

marvel has countless of multiverses (mutant-x issue 32)

so tell me...............how does beyonder having multiversal feats compare to someone who is omniversal (the countless multiverses are still within the omniverse)? And someone who is the representative of the writer?

that's the last time i reply to you, if you can't accept the facts and you can't provide proof, then that's your problem and you can't be reasoned with.

@rolldestroyer: @rolldestroyer:

I've heard that nemisis as a living being ( not the gems) works in total conjunction with the HOTU, but I could be wrong it's why I said possibly.

Beyonder then was pretty omnipotent or past that even, he destroyed and recreated the multiverse in which it is more than everything, also you saw he was beating up celestial with his bare hands for fun, hundreds of them, Odin even with the help of other gods and thanos and the destroyer armor couldn't even handle the celestial host, so he's much much much much above odins level.

@rolldestroyer: Omg dude... for the 3rd time... Beyonder won't have Omniversal feats because he didn't know about all the universes! Cmon, man... I know you can understand this... He's not omnipresent nor omniscient therefore he doesn't have full knowledge about the Marvel-Verse therefore he can't do the same as TOAA in the Marvel-Verse, however that doesn't take away the facts he didn't showed any kind of limit on his power. He can do w/e he wants in the Universe of the Beyonders because he is the TOAA in that Universe... This is my last time as well.. i won't be repeating the same thing over and over if you just want to ignore the feats and scans...

As for the interview, im on it... Give me some time.

wtf Superman prime one million is no where near PR beyonders level this is spite lol some ppl are actually going for superman here?

@moonman78:

that's false, nemesis has nothing to do with the heart of the universe.

i know beyonder's feats pretty well, not sure why people think otherwise, read the whole thread and you'll understand why destroying the multiverse means literally nothing compared to an omniversal being, much less a representative of the writer himself. im not sure why you brought up the celestials, that's completely irrelevant.

great! so he doesn't have them, end of discussion.

looking forward to the interview, i hope you won't disappoint.......and please, don't post a reply without including it.

no one is arguing in prime's favor here. Read the whole thread.

@rolldestroyer:

First off the Odin comment was refering to something floopay said. Now as for the multiversal omniversal thing, it's because back when secret wars happened almost everything was universal, meaning if u did something on a universal scale it was as far as u can go, then at that time we started to have multiversal feats and it was the most you could do at that time, now you have many multiverses, but when beyonder destroyed the multiverse it was everything in existence that he destroyed.

I don't know what would be higher he or Thanos with the HOTU but both guys did the same thing

@moonman78: I was about to say that too, but i won't reply to him without the interview link... I just can't find it...

that's false, actually.

what if issue 32 (1982)

to quote LT 'by the omniversal constant'

mighty world of marvel issue 9 (February 1984)

@ghostravage don't count on it

btw did it occur to you that the reason you can't find the link is because it doesn't exist?