owie

Geeking out about Melinda May using the alias Chastity McBryde (from Elektra Assassin) in SHIELD this week.

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#1  Edited By owie  Moderator

The Debater's Hall of Fame Round XVIII - Nominations

No Caption Provided

Purpose of the Hall of Fame

Contrary to what most may believe, the HOF is about more than just back patting and recognition. It's about endorsing the values we want to see more of on our forum. There is an old saying, you catch more flies with honey...and it's true. Recognize the things you like with praise and more will want to do them for the recognition. This is your chance to positively influence our community.

Please no negative comments about any user or anyone's choice. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

- Wyldsong

The Purpose of the HOF endorse the values we wish to see in the Battle forums by giving recognition to those who best encompass these values and have had a positive influence on this community. Of course this is also to recognize those who have shown exceptional debating skill during their time on vine.

Please be respectful when voting and respect other voters choices. It is acceptable to express any dissatisfaction with people being voted, but please do so in a respectful manor and provide constructive criticism.

- EmperorThanos

What is This Thread?

The goal of this thread is to create a list of nominees for the next round of the Debating Hall of Fame.

The nominations list automatically includes all the active users who were nominated in the last round, as seen below.

You can vote in this thread to add more people to the nominations list.

Do not vote for people who are already in the Hall of Fame! Do not vote for people who are already on the nominee list below! Check the lists of people who are already in the Hall of Fame, and people who are already nominees, before you vote!

After we collect nominations, we will create a new thread to vote which nominees actually get in the HOF.

Rules for the Nomination Round

  • To get on the nominee list, someone has to be nominated and then have it seconded and endorsed (in other words three votes in total).
  • You cannot nominate yourself.
  • You can only nominate people who have been members of Comic Vine for at least one year. You can check this by going to their profile.
  • You cannot nominate members that are currently banned from the site.
  • Feel free to nominate as many people as you feel are worthy to be on the list of nominees.
  • To make nominations, you must have a minimum post count of 500.
  • Be respectful. Do not berate and insult anyone's votes. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Current Hall of Fame Members

Do not nominate them, they are already in the Hall of Fame!

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 1

  • the creator
  • Static Shock
  • Gambler
  • Buckshot
  • Vance Astro

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 2

  • Morpheus_
  • k4tzm4n
  • Zoom
  • AtPhantom
  • Ferro Vida
  • Dane

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 3

  • erik
  • Silver2467
  • Power NeXus
  • King Saturn
  • geraldthesloth

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 4

  • JediXMan
  • Spidey15
  • Lance Uppercut
  • Final Arrow
  • Matezoide

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 5

  • vuviper
  • Lunacyde
  • god_spawn
  • Strafe Prower
  • CosmicSpiral
  • MrDirector789

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 6

  • CitizenBane
  • beatboks1
  • Floopay
  • Super_SoliderXII
  • texasdeathmatch

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 7

  • jashro44
  • Killemall
  • CadenceV2
  • Strider92
  • YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 8

  • Lvenger
  • Wyldsong
  • Comicstooge
  • Forever
  • Dredeuced

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round 9

  • Frozen
  • Wolverine08
  • Thetruebarryallen
  • Laflux
  • I_like_swords
  • Dondave

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round X

  • Ghostravage
  • Cosmicallyaware1
  • Veshark
  • HigorM
  • Dccomicsrule2011

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round XI

  • Juiceboks
  • Highaccuser
  • ShootingNova
  • Nickzambuto
  • SlimJ87D
  • Lukehero

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round XII

  • Theacidskull
  • Princearagorn1
  • Bringnit
  • Esquire
  • Sovereign91001

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round XIII

  • Emperorthanos
  • Tparks
  • Newworldorder/Heirtothekingdom
  • Krleavenger
  • Elijah_C_Washington
  • Rogueshadow

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round XIV

  • Chimeroid
  • Thedailybagel
  • Brucerogers
  • Zetsumoto
  • Mr_Ingenuity
  • Owie

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round XV

  • Thedarkpaladin
  • Major_Hellstrom
  • HigherPower
  • Pipxeroth
  • The_Red_Viper

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round XVI

  • Darthjhawk
  • TheWatcherKing
  • DeathHero61
  • Maestromage
  • Shirso
  • ProfessorRespect

Debaters Hall of Fame - Round XVI

  • SupremeGeneration
  • Anthp2000
  • Majinblackheart
  • Rajjarsalt
  • BlackSpidey2099
  • Fetts

Current Nominees

(You do not need to renominate them, they are already nominees!)

  • Alextheboss
  • Allstarsuperman
  • angelica10
  • bladeoffury
  • BreakOfDawn
  • CaoCao
  • Claymore1998
  • Death4Bunnies
  • defiant_will
  • eredin12
  • faradaysloth
  • GangOrca
  • geekryan
  • gelato_exotic
  • GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps
  • HitTheAssasin
  • kevd4wg
  • killbilly
  • Killerqueen
  • KingCrimson
  • kurt_saulenne
  • maalik
  • mass
  • Naronu
  • pics
  • Stormshadow_x
  • streak619
  • takenstew22
  • TheNamelessOne
  • TheVivas
  • wastelandman

To be clear: This round is for making the list of nominees. Next round is the actual vote to get in the HOF.

*Nominations will run until Sunday, January 14 at 11:59pm eastern time.

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#2 owie  Moderator
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#3 owie  Moderator

@chimeroid: yeah, we've had a number of conversations about this. I think we're going ahead with it now. @professorrespect, I have some other mods helping too, but also happy to have your eyes out for tomfoolery if you see anything. I think we'll be posting it later today. Notifs may be fixed, or not, but with a lot of users on break right now this is a good time.

@rajjarsalt:got it

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#4 owie  Moderator

The Kahhori episode was the only one I really enjoyed as a story. Basically my issue is that everyone seems to have been turned into joke a minute machines. Like they don't have the confidence in the show that it can keep our attention without having constant jokes. It was especially out of character with Hela. And I get it, these are alternate universes. But it just felt wrong to me. With Kahhori, on the other hand, there was less of this humor and it was able to just stand alone as a story. And since she's not a variant of someone, it wasn't out of character if she did make a joke. Also, the movie parodies were lame. The one with the race was a parody of like 6 things; again, it feels like they don't have the confidence to stand the plots on their own without something else undergirding it.

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#5 owie  Moderator

There's a little bit of a trend now with characters being directly empowered, or amped, by the Infinity Stones in the MCU.

Carol Danvers' and Kahhori's powers were created by the Tesseract/Space Stone.

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's powers were amped or created by the Mind Stone.

This is different from folks who use the Stones as objects, whether in the Gauntlet, or Vision's head, Loki's scepter, etc.

Do you think we'll see more characters who essentially gain the power of a stone directly? Any specific examples of character you think would be a good match for a stone?

Loki's amp at the end of season 2 is almost like he's got a connection with the Time Stone, even if that's not actually what happened. Honestly that would make more sense to me than what did happen which I don't feel like was really explained.

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#6 owie  Moderator

@supreme101: powers include TK, energy blasts, superspeed (like Quicksilver style, running in a blur and also perceiving bullets in slow mo), force fields, teleportation of others through portals including targeted ones like when she teleported Killmonger out of a suit of armor he was wearing as described above. She's empowered by the tesseract, sort of like Danvers.

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#7 owie  Moderator

@tagsorwhatever: thanks

@frozen:Can you link me to those statements?

And what do you think about the first part, the general plot structure question of "Sidious planned the whole thing so it's unlikely that he made a plan where he was in danger of losing to Windu"?

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#8 owie  Moderator

I think this is a great collation of sources and nice analysis. I like the point about the lightning affecting Palpatine's face instead of it being his true form.

But honestly, all sources aside, just watching the movie on its own just gives me a pretty clear sense that Palpatine is throwing it on purpose. The body language and so on, but more than that, it's obviously Palpatine's plan to have Mace survive long enough so Anakin can see him, and then feel guilty when Mace is killed, because he has no way of going back to the Jedi after being culpable in Mace's murder. It's the whole point of the plot. Palpatine knew this was going to happen, he told Anakin he was a Sith so Anakin would tell the Jedi. What are your thoughts on that part--that regardless of what exists outside of the movie, that the point of this scene was the culmination of Palpatine's plan to turn Anakin, and Palpatine wouldn't plan it this way unless he was sure he could win?

Also, following up on the lightning scarring...Sidious knows that pain leads to power, this could well be his intentional way of leveling himself up, of growth in anger and hatred through physical trauma--not that different from what he's been putting Vader through in the comics, but doing it to himself. So I don't think the fact that the lightning really hurt him is conclusive either way. He's certainly very capable of doing whatever it takes to get what he wants, including sacrifice of his face. But it's an interesting thing to think about either way.

But also, taking other media back into consideration, what about the novelization, which I don't think you included here? Now I know you're qualifying this as a Canon argument, but regardless of when it was published I have a hard time seeing the novels of the book as outside Canon. Wookieepedia does still describe the movie novelizations as Canon regardless of their publication date ("Since then, the only previously published material still considered canon are the six original trilogy/prequel trilogy films, novels (where they align with what is seen on screen)..."). But if you don't (perhaps under the "when they align with what is seen on screen" exception), that's fine and ignore the rest of what I have here. I don't care too much about arguing about what's canon or not. Anyway here are a number of quotes from the novel:

Anakin comes in and sees Windu as he "battled alone, blade to blade, against a living shadow." Soon after, Windu was "half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire." This characterization of Sidious as a Sith shadow continues through the fight. This seems to imply that Sidious is already fully embracing his Sith identity and not just at the end with the eyes.

The narrative has Mace think, "In the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear." This sounds like Windu was in fact winning. And there's a couple more lines about the shadow's fear, backing that up.

Now Palpatine turns back to his more human presentation: "Now the shadow was only Palpatine, old and shunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion." Clearly he's putting this on as an act. He switched modes on purpose to gain Anakin's pity. He uses "the broken cadence of a frightened old man."

Mace tries to stick the fear he felt in Palpatine's face: "you lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

"Fool," Palpatine replies twice, the second time in italics. This is not a random word choice. He clearly sees Mace as a fool, and having beenfooled. Then: "Did you think the fear you feel is mine?" [emphasis in original] Obviously, the point is that it was not. Palpatine had no fear the whole fight, he was tricking Windu.

He shoots the lightning, and was perhaps surprised that Windu managed to reflect it, since "Palpatine staggered, snarling" when hit, but also to my point above, "he fed the power with his pain" when he blasts again. [Following up on the fact that he doesn't care about his face--later he looks at himself in a mirror, shrugs, and just says I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think."]

Mace calls for Anakin to help him, clearly indicating he needs it. Then he feels again: "Palpatine was not afraid....he wasn't worried at all." Now you could argue that maybe in this case Palpatine wasn't afraid because he knows Anakin is going to help him, not Windu. But that doesn't affect Palpatine's lack of fear earlier, which is what he thought Windu was a fool about. I mean arguably, maybe Sidious felt no fear the whole time because he had forseen all of this with the Force and knew what was going to happen, and so in that approach, maybe Mace beat him fair and square and Sidious was fine with that because he knew Anakin would come in and save him. But that still doesn't really explain the part where Mace is a fool. That only comes with the whole thing being an act.

Now "Palpatine...ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade" back towards his face. So Palpatine wasn't going all out in his initial lightning.

Mace's voice is described as "going thin with strain" and "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." He says "Anakin, he's too strong for me." [emphasis in original]

But literally immediately after Mace says Palpatine is too strong, Palpatine fakes it more, stopping his lightning out of nowhere and acting like an "old man crumpled to his knees." He makes some obviously fake whimpers about "I am too old, too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Then they talk some more, Anakin cuts off his hand and Palpatine zaps him out the window.

So to summarize, Mace was tricked into thinking Palpatine was afraid, but he wasn't. Palpatine clearly indicates that he was fooling Windu. Sidious also shifted back and forth between a more shadowy, Sith form (at least as seen through the Force) and his pathetic frail human form as needed to put on his show for Anakin, showing again that he was doing it to con Anakin, and that he was in full embrace of his Sith nature throughout. He may have been surprised that Mace reflected back the lightning, but he wasn't doing it full force at the start, and after, he was winning the lightning/saber battle, bending the blade back toward Windu with Mace saying Palpatine was too strong for him. Then Palpatine only stopped in order to get Anakin to join in.

So from my perspective, it seems pretty clear Windu was never really in control.

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#9 owie  Moderator

No. Women aren't Mary Sues just because they're capable and centered.

Captain Carter is a badass, but not really different than Steve or any other hero. Yes, she's the main character and yes the plot revolves around her--but again that's not different from any male hero. She succeeds perhaps a little more directly than characters in the movies, but that's just the simplicity of this cartoon.

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#10 owie  Moderator

Kahhori replaces Wanda in the attack on Kamar-Taj.

Does she succeed? Does she do better or worse than Wanda in the process?

Kamar-Taj is prepped for defense, just as in the scene in Multiverse of Madness, with all the same characters.

Kahhori is pissed off and believes the sorcerers are behind the attack on her village.

Win by any means.

I was originally going to make this Kahhori and her tribe against the Kamar-Taj leaders and followers, more like a war scenario, but after the finale I'm curious whether Kahhori could do it on her own.

Kahhori
Kahhori
Kamar-Taj
Kamar-Taj