owie

@ouroborik: great to read such an in-depth analysis. I don't agree with all of it in terms of my own tastes but I get where you're coming from and it's nice to hear someone else who's reading it and thinking about it in detail.

I am actually doing some writing about Hunter right now and just skimmed through the Red White Black and Black White Red series quickly, and was also surprised at just how much of it focuses on a few key parts of his life, telling those same parts again and again. It did feel repetitive. I think he would have been better served if Wagner expanded his story (which he did in Behold the Devil). Devil Child, about Stacy after Hunter dies, is also powerful, if twisted.

I really like Wagner's early artwork but strangely I think he has gotten notably worse as he has gone along. His Mage I/Devil by the Deed are great (as is his Demon miniseries and some other 80s/early 90s work). But I find his current style pretty frustrating.

When you read the Hunter/Argent stuff, did you read the original Devil by the Deed or the new "Master's Edition"? The new one is interesting for the story but the art, as I said, is not up to snuff with the old one.

I really enjoy the Christine Spar story, I think the art is entertainingly wacky and enjoy the over the top stylization. I actually own the original page where she plants the bomb under the one cop's car. But it's not for everyone. I forgot about the aliens, that is weird. In terms of plot, and especially why she didn't go to the police, I think it's two things--one, she felt like the COPS overall were corrupt, and especially she found Wiggins to be problematic. But also, she was already under the Grendel spirit's influence, and made bad decisions all along because of it.

Cool that you like the arc with Brian. That's an unusual one and not everyone's favorite. I really like the Lt. Polk story with the small panels, but then it starts getting a little annoying for a few issues. Once you hit the Eppy arc, it goes all-out though. I also like the final arc when Orion takes over. The next series, Warchild, about Grendel-Prime, is also great. The various Grendel Tales miniseries are extremely hit or miss, with some really terrible work along with some good stuff. The two highlights there are Devils and Deaths and Devil's Choices. Homecoming is also good.

@tparks:I'll keep it in mind, see how the next couple months go.

This would actually be a pretty decent set of battles. At first I thought, these two DC characters are streetlevel, they have no chance. But, they have hax that could potentially work here.

Grendel Prime, to give a basic rundown, is a 20-50 tonner with similar durability (he's a cyborg whose organics are pretty much just his brain at this point). Durability-wise, he can survive re-entry from orbit in terms of both the heat and impact. He's bulletproof and pushes through anti-tank missile barrages. He's a highly skilled hand to hand combatant, chosen as the best warrior of his post-apocalyptic world of warriors. (Even a less tank-y version of him trashed Batman, for instance.) He can fly, has various futuristic guns, a plasma sword and shield, spear-like spikes that can stick out of his arms and shoulders, and most dangerously has an omnidirectional energy blast that has the power of a third of a nuke.

So, with the massive energy blast, Green Arrow and Black Canary have no chance. Let's take that out of the equation, at least offensively.

I'm not an expert on either Ollie or Dinah, but reasonably familiar with them. I would say they would both probably lose individually and only have a chance together--one distracting Prime and the other attempting to take him out, for instance. They're both fast and agile and could potentially avoid his melee or gunshots (his speed isn't super well defined but I would say a little under FTE) for a while.

I would probably have Ollie use stuff like glue or sonics on him to try to incap him. Here's where I don't have expertise, I don't know exactly how powerful these effects are. Even if Prime gets entirely enveloped in glue or whatever, his solar flare could burn him out of it (he has done that sort of thing before), but it would at least slow him down. Sonics, hard to say if he would be affected in terms of his hearing. I would tend to say no. But overall, Green Arrow could slow him down.

Then Canary would have to go all-out with her Cry, I imagine. Again, here's where I don't know how powerful the destructive power of her cry can be. My sense, from quickly looking at some RTs, is that she probably can't destroy him. But again, she'd slow him down, do some damage, knock him back.

Overall, I see Prime winning this, but the DC team could make him work for it through teamwork and hax.

@tparks: Yeah, it's too bad, it was fun. I may be looking to do a CAV this summer after I finish up a few more busy issues at work if you want to do something else :)

@ouroborik:Yes, it's the events just before Orion took over. It's a great arc, one of the best Grendel stories. If you like the earlier Grendel stories I recommend it. The short stories in-between Christine and Orion can vary with readers by taste, but the Innocent XLII/Orion/Eppy arc is great.

Eppy Thatcher (a Grendel) vs Moon Knight

Battle takes place in the ruins of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, starting at 30', in character, win by any means.

Eppy has all his various tech and drug upgrades. Moon Knight is Marc, with the pictured armor, and a wide range of gear such as his crescents, grappling hook truncheon/staff, and anything else he has used from the 2014 volume on. He has an active relationship with Khonshu (as opposed to the most recent volume where he was bereft of Khonshu).

Here's a tourney post about Eppy if you want feats. Basically, low-level superhumanly fast and strong--capable of fighting a vampire with blur speed and punching through a brick wall--largely resistant to pain when he's on the Grendel drug, can fly, has an electrified staff with blades at one end and a laser beam on the other. He has a force field, but he can't attack while it's up so it's not extremely useful here.

I think it depends a lot on how seriously Nightcrawler and Cyke fight. The meaning of "In character" for them has varied a lot in the last decade or so as they have gone through various traumas and healed and gotten traumatized again. If they're in a pretty intense zone Cyclops may open wide either directly on them or on architecture around them, making it fall on them, counting on Cap's abilities and shield and Kraven's healing to keep it non-lethal, but putting winning over ethics. Or Nightcrawler could go tele-bananas and really strike like crazy with a sword. I feel like the X-men in general have really come to embrace killing as a matter of course since Krakoa. But they could also be in more of a chill zone, with Cyclops being more targeted and Nightcrawler being a little more relaxed in how he attacks. His recent Hope Sword gives him a better edge than in the past though.

Meanwhile, taking the side of the other team for a moment, Cap has fought Scott multiple times and Kraven's used to fighting a guy who's faster and stronger than Kurt, plus he has spider-sense. Of course Nightcrawler has teleportation and Spidey doesn't. But it's not shocking for Nightcrawler to get hit regardless of his teleporting, so I think there's a pretty decent chance Kraven tags Nightcrawler with poison darts. Again, exactly what character zone we're talking about for Kraven matters here; does he moderate himself in order to fight more effectively alongside Cap or go full-lethal? Would Cap and Kraven, both relative tanks for street level, be able to take advantage of Scott and Kurt's vulnerability to physical harm? It would take a lot more to knock out Steve and Kraven than it would take to knock out Scott and Nightcrawler.

@pyrofn: Good point about Kitty being able to use the sword (and armor for that matter).

Illyana Rasputin vs Kate Pryde

Two deadly childhood besties with swords!

Round 1: Hand to hand combat only. No powers. Magik has her Soul Sword but no armor, Kate has a katana.

Round 2: Magik can use her teleportation disks, Soul Sword, and armor (no magic). Kate has a katana and can use her phasing.

Note that Magik’s sword has affected Kate while she is phasing before, so Kate would have to use her phasing creatively, not just as a method of permanent avoidance.

@aksilroch: temp ban. Stop with the insults.

@aksilroch: warning for language.

@rajjarsalt I'm locking this partly as bait on a topic you know you've been warned to watch out about but more as an example of making battles with "excessive numbers" and being essentially the same as making a battle vs a universe. You've made multiple of these Krakoa threads, they're beyond rational argument. If you want to use specific powerful mutant characters, use those specific characters.