wwhulk :
is savage hulk (version 1) BUT :
wwhulk came to us after planet hulk. where he lost his wife, unborn child and people.
another note is that wwhulk was angry. but instead of unleashing his fury, he was trained by hiroim to stay focused. hence "FOCUSED RAGE". he's angry but stayed in focus to his goal. which was to capture and make his opponents feel his pain. to make it short. he came back to earth for revenge.
focused rage : this gave the hulk an extra boast in his base level of strength. due to the fact that the angrier he gets the stronger he gets. but his strength didn't really increase in almost all his fights and that includes his fight with the sentry because he stayed focused. so in saying that, IF planet hulk was about 100 tons, wwhulk would be about 120 to 130 tons. (a pale example but an acceptable one coz he showed that he was more than 150 tons to do what he did.)
- under focused rage, not only did it increase his already vaunted strength but his ability to heal (as shown when he was cut or bruised, he later healed immediately), his durability (as stated by wolverine, You're skin is harder to cut...."). the rest of his abilities like leaping and speed were not shown to have increase probably because it was irrelevant. also, something to be noted, due to his focused rage, it was difficult / impossible for emma and prof x to control the hulk. (try talking to someone who's very angry and you'll see what i mean lol)
now having explained all of those and to sum it all up. wwhulk was stronger, faster, more durable, has access to banner's intellect and heals faster. oh! one other thing i failed to mention. bruce and hulk was shown to be working together in contrast to most of their shared existence.
neno1277's forum posts
"neno1277 said:evidence???? that the hell. is this a court? if you don't know that hulk has done those things that i've posted, clearly you don't even read the hulk.dude...seriously ..... did you read my ENTIRE POST? or just the first part?I did. You didn't post evidence. You made claims. Is there a problem? If not, post evidence. I'm speaking English, obviously.
here???? and the difference between here and there???
i'm talking about personalities. which, superman is true. superman rarely goes "all out" against opponents he doesn't know
why thank you. good thing is said "rarely". oh and more to the point, its called PIS (plot induced stupidity), another word for it is, victim. i've discussed that already.
and the point of going on about this thread is????
(oh before i do, namor have never again koed the hulk. even when he's fighting WITH herc, she-hulk, ironman, wonderman, and the rest of the avengers.)
Big difference. We argue battles around here devoid of plot and things of that nature. That would include personalities. It would be different if Superman has NEVER used his speed in battles. But he has, and since he has, it's a part of his character. We don't disregard things here because a character rarely does something. Ghost Rider doesn't always use his Penance Stare, and even if it's one of his abilities, it can used here. Darkseid doesn't always use his Omega Beams, but he uses them. Silver Surfer doesn't always transmute matter, but he's done it before.
Rarely, or not. It doesn't matter. It's not like he's never done it before.
Can you refute it? No. So, drop it.
Namor is stronger than base level Hulk while underwater. I didn't bother reading that long post of yours.... Too much."
devoid of plots you say? then i still stand with my ground. hulk has fought beings that starts off more powerful than he was. he still came out on top.
include of personalities??? that's the whole point of my discussion. superman is a boyscout to no end and is victim (much like every other hero / villain) of writers. *i've discussed this already no need to go on. and i've also stated why a superman (just for the purpose of fighting) would loss one or two matches against the hulk. with no "saving the day" reasons. superman DOES NOT go 100%. again. i've said this already.
yes that is the entirety of my of point, he (superman) has all this incredible and amazing abilities and rarely uses them all at once. thank you for sharing that.
drop what? (i'm gonna go 5 yrs old and say this : ) you and the others started it. i shared a point of view, and you and the rest of superman "lovers" started attacking our post.
you didn't bother reading the entirety of the post and you complain??? lol thank you so much for pointing out that you can't accept something without "evidence".
evidence for the win. lol
"neno1277 said:evidence???? that the hell. is this a court? if you don't know that hulk has done those things that i've posted, clearly you don't even read the hulk.dude...seriously ..... did you read my ENTIRE POST? or just the first part?I did. You didn't post evidence. You made claims. Is there a problem? If not, post evidence. I'm speaking English, obviously.
here???? and the difference between here and there???
i'm talking about personalities. which, superman is true. superman rarely goes "all out" against opponents he doesn't know
why thank you. good thing is said "rarely". oh and more to the point, its called PIS (plot induced stupidity), another word for it is, victim. i've discussed that already.
and the point of going on about this thread is????
(oh before i do, namor have never again koed the hulk. even when he's fighting WITH herc, she-hulk, ironman, wonderman, and the rest of the avengers.)
Big difference. We argue battles around here devoid of plot and things of that nature. That would include personalities. It would be different if Superman has NEVER used his speed in battles. But he has, and since he has, it's a part of his character. We don't disregard things here because a character rarely does something. Ghost Rider doesn't always use his Penance Stare, and even if it's one of his abilities, it can used here. Darkseid doesn't always use his Omega Beams, but he uses them. Silver Surfer doesn't always transmute matter, but he's done it before.
Rarely, or not. It doesn't matter. It's not like he's never done it before.
Can you refute it? No. So, drop it.
Namor is stronger than base level Hulk while underwater. I didn't bother reading that long post of yours.... Too much."
devoid of plots you say? then i still stand with my ground. hulk has fought beings that starts off more powerful than he was. he still came out on top.
include of personalities??? that's the whole point of my discussion. superman is a boyscout to no end and is victim (much like every other hero / villain) of writers. *i've discussed this already no need to go on. and i've also stated why a superman (just for the purpose of fighting) would loss one or two matches against the hulk. with no "saving the day" reasons. superman DOES NOT go 100%. again. i've said this already.
yes that is the entirety of my of point, he (superman) has all this incredible and amazing abilities and rarely uses them all at once. thank you for sharing that.
drop what? (i'm gonna go 5 yrs old and say this : ) you and the others started it. i shared a point of view, and you and the rest of superman "lovers" started attacking our post.
you didn't bother reading the entirety of the post and you complain??? lol thank you so much for pointing out that you can't accept something without "evidence".
evidence for the win. lol
oh! before i go (need to check out my other store lol)
you asked me this "if namor can why not superman?"
here's the answer : going all out superman wins hands down, (i've said already....repeatedly), if not, fight can go either way, meaning that superman can win over hulk and vice versa. the thing is, being stronger, doesn't necessarily mean you win automatically, hell, hulk can smash a mountain with a single blow. i'm pretty sure he COULD catch superman off guard and land a ko here or there AND vice versa. (as seen in the vote dc vs marvel)
dude...seriously ..... did you read my ENTIRE POST? or just the first part?
Exactly. Which is why doesn't always use it in comics. Here, it doesn't matter how often he has used this tactic.
here???? and the difference between here and there???
i'm talking about personalities. which, superman is true. superman rarely goes "all out" against opponents he doesn't know
There was a scan I posted, when at the beginning of the battle, an enemy blocked Superman's heat vision, and Superman blitzed right after that. He used his speed at the beginning of that fight, and he didn't even know who the guy was. There's another where Superman blitzes some ugly monster thing with superspeed punches at the beginning of a battle. The scans are on the previous page.
why thank you. good thing is said "rarely". oh and more to the point, its called PIS (plot induced stupidity), another word for it is, victim. i've discussed that already.
Of course he wouldn't. And, he wouldn't be able to catch Superman moving at high supersonic speeds greater than what Quicksilver could move at.
and the point of going on about this thread is????
Superman can slug it out, and he can blitz it out too. If one tactic is valid, so is the other. And, Superman is many times stronger than the Hulk at his base level. He could easily KO him before he gets angry. Namor did it. Why can't Superman?
ah...i figured one of you would bring this up. here. allow me to "give comments" to the fight between namor and hulk : (oh before i do, namor have never again koed the hulk. even when he's fighting WITH herc, she-hulk, ironman, wonderman, and the rest of the avengers.)
a comment i wrote in marvel.com\
[quote="neno1277"]the man monster vs the prince of atlantis!
let the rumble
begin!
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based on the majority vote. we have established that the hulk can defeat namor over land and or any place. as long as its not under water or a well soaked namor. (something i am contesting at the moment). needless to say, we no longer need to discuss the fight between the hulk on land as we know who would win. BUT seeing that this would play an important factor of the vs thread in question. allow me to discuss it anyway.
first off. allow me to discuss this based on some of the encounters between the hulk and namor.
i will start off with their very first encounter and at the same time their very first fight. (if i can recall correctly)
the issue in discussion is AVENGERS NO. 3. (i'll skip all details and proceed to the fight itself) so how, the hulk ran, or rather swam, into namor. at this point, both hulk and namor's arrogance led to an no-so-epic fight with namor beating the hulk with seeming ease. seeing as the fight took place near the water and eventually into the sea.
*things to note in this fight which some of us might not have noticed
- hulk fought the avengers prior to his fight with namor. (thor and ironman)
- at this point. the hulk is already called the strongest one there is, but his stamina was not yet established as tireless. even if it has, it has been shown that the hulk can get tired or sweat profusely after a fight. which would indicate that he was getting tired.
- with that said it could be safely assumed that the hulk was still tired from his fight and from swimming aimlessly for days. although true to his recuperative powers, hulk regained his strength in a short time. but one has to consider the words "short time". i'll let you decide...
([b]namor for the clear and dominant win[/b])
the next issue where they have fought is TALES TO ASTONISH issue no. 100. (again, i'll skip some details and proceed to the fight)
namor sought to make the hulk is ally. unknown to the submariner, the hulk was being controlled by the malevolent puppet master. he somehow used his controlling powers to lead the hulk to where namor was. (if you actually saw the issue the hulk leaped ON the water, how it happened i don't know lol). namor sees the hulk, asks him to join him but then the hulk suddenly strikes! which lead to a more epic fight then their first on. they were able to trade blow for blow until namor realizes that on land, the hulk had the advantage and had to trick the hulk to take the fight into the sea. which lead to another epic fight, although the puppet master was guiding the hulk in this fight, the hulk unknowingly threw namor into the sea. when namor landed into the sea, it resorted him. upon doing so, namor now so the behemoth back at the beach where they were fighting. namor, with his renewed strength was able to fly at the hulk and using that momentum to push the hulk back to the sea. the hulk and namor fought again but the hulk, under the instruction of the puppet master, was able to maneuver the fight back to the beach. once they were there, they traded blow for blow. at this point the prince was able to out maneuver the hulk and tricked him by taking the fight to the sea and trapped the hulk by swimming around the hulk and creating a small but powerful whirlpool. which made the puppet master lose control over the hulk and thus reverting him back to banner.
*things to note in this fight which some of us might not have noticed
- puppet master prevented the hulk from getting angry thus putting the hulk on his base level of strength.
- due to the puppet master's power, the hulk was actually hesitant and confused almost throughout this fight.
- also, due to the fact that the puppet master's influence on the hulk, he wasn't fighting at 100%.
([b]namor won, but had a heck of fight against the hulk EVEN if his strength consistently and repeatedly restored via being thrown or on his own going to the nearby water. also the hulk was not able to get angry and thus putting a "cap" on his strength. [/b])
the next issue is TIH issue 118. Namor's crew saved banner from certain death of drowning. upon knowing that Dorma was giving doc banner medical attention (actually he thought she was hiding an ordinary "surface dweller". long story) to make it short, namor was tricked into thinking that Dorma was secretly hiding a human in atlantis. anywho....namor, enraged as dorma said "never have i seen such unbridled wrath upon your face" which clearly meant that namor was enraged beyond comprehension. doc banner wakes up from the loud voices outside his chamber, thus panicking and eventually turns to the hulk and bursting from the chamber to meet face to face with the prince of atlantis. the fight starts with the hulk attacking with a thunderclap under the sea thus crushing the house and driving namor back. further enraged at the site of the injured dorma, namor seeks revenge upon the hulk, which led to a catastrophic and devastating fight in atlantis. namor, being a better fighter, used the move he once used to defeat the hulk in the past, by creating a small and powerful whirlpool around the hulk. the hulk was able to counter by reaching and eventually grabbing namor's ankles. thus stopping the whirlpool that was choking the air out of the hulk (how the hulk was actually breathing and talking underwater is beyond me lol let alone namor understanding his words lol) namor was distracted by what he saw, fara holding a gun and approaching a coma / knocked out dorma. the hulk hit namor with so much force that he was pushed back to the wall that was near fara and thus send it crashing down upon her and lady dorma. further enrage and after namor rescued dorma from the rubbles (beats me how she wasn't killed in it actually) the hulk braced himself upon a rock the used his legs to propel himself towards prince namor. seeing what the hulk did, namor swam at the hulk with immense speed and with an almighty crash that made shock waves under and over the sea that created powerful tidal waves on a nearby beach, sends both combatants hurling back. hulk flew out of the ocean and landed at a nearby island while minutes later namor, resorted by the life giving waters, sought out what happened to the incredible hulk. he saw hulk, like a missile, flying down and landing on a nearby island.
*things to note in this fight which some of us might not have noticed
- namor was at FULL strength and the hulk UNDERWATER was able to give him an epic fight.
- namor was the first to regain his strength in order to search his opponent. but was weakened to a point of defeat in this epic fight. why did i say this? if the hulk wasn't sent out to the ocean and crashing down on an island, the fight would have continued but this is just an opinion.
- both combatants fought to almost a stand still UNDERWATER. if namor was the one who was sent OUT of the ocean instead of just being hurled back, he would have been the one that was koed. again an opinion and not a fact.
([b]namor won. but as seen, he had problems with the hulk. also, it could have been the other way around, seeing as the hulk was the one who was shot out of the water instead of namor. i would hazard to guess that if namor was the one who got shot out of the water he'd be koed upon landing, seeing as it took him minutes to for the water to resort him.[/b])
this would be their forth fight. TIH issue 316 and 321 and 322. the fight was on a desert. namor along side a number of equally strong and powerful allies fought a mindless hulk that did not have the ability to increase his strength due to the fact that this fight was on a desert.
issue 316 : even along side herc, ironman and wonderman, namor wasn't shown to a factor in the fight.
issue 321 : again an epic fight, namor along side even more members of the avengers, he was shown to a factor in this fight due to the fact that this fight was on a desert.
issue 322 : same. until the toppled the hulk because the hulk was actually sick and was dying.
to summarize all of this, hulk wins on land and namor wins nearby or underwater. but look carefully. the savage hulk even UNDERWATER. was more than a match for the prince of atlantis. as he was giving namor a really good fight whether it was underwater or nearby sea.
-then we were yet shown how another fight would have been when these two titians meet again. Annual of hulk and submariner 1998.
the fight takes place yet again. under the ocean. the hulk was severely weakened from loss of blood and namor from his earlier battle. though batter the prince of atlantis was in his element thus giving him even more advantage. enrage and mistook the hulk being in "cahoots" with his long time opponent attuma. namor fought the hulk to a not so satisfying fight. which ended with the now blue skinned hulk and a very weakened hulk eventually cornering the prince. before the hulk delivers the "killing" blow, the hulk noticed that namor wasn't really looking at him but was looking BEHIND him. (the hulk didn't really win here. as opposed to the claims of a certain website seeing as no one was koed). it was lord vashti. --- end of the fight.
well. these are my observations on this fight. a weakened hulk can still give prince namor a good fight underwater. though i think he should have lost due to the fact that he was severely
weakened...
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having explained their encounters / fights with no bias, seeing as i happen to like both characters. these are the conclusions that i can see.
1. savage hulk can fight namor underwater. there's no arguing there. can he win? yes. i do believe so. but under the presented circumstances that the hulk was in, i don't think so. in another highly possible BUT he still loses the majority fight. like say namor wins 7/10 or even 8/10
2. gray hulk wouldn't last long, namor wins hands down.
3. merged hulk should lose the majority underwater due to the fact that he was more of a critical thinker than a fighter (nerd to be rude) but has the power to do so. seeing as it has been repeatedly stated that he has a higher base level of strength. namor wins about 7/10
4. prof hulk (a recton of merged hulk), he will lose eventually. coz he reverts back to banner when he gets angry enough. namor wins 10/10 lol
5. war hulk, his guys is not only touch but bad and powerful. strong enough to stop the juggernaut after being pushed several hundred feet. he was being powered by the pocket universe (heroes reborn verse) and he also received an upgrade by apocalypse. the upgrade as some of us hulk fans has come to conclude that the hulk gained the ability to increase his strength by sheer will. the increase of strength by sheer will is not the only thing to note but the speed of the increase of strength as well. it would be safe to say that hulk's base level of strength is already around 120 tons to 130 tons. even with upgrades this hulk, still needs to breath. this allows namor to actually win underwater. imo namor wins but barely 2 or 3/10
6. zombie hulk well he could just take a bite at namor and they'll be both zombies lol :)
7. here it comes. WWhulk. wwhulk being the strongest, with the probable exemption of the maestro, version of the hulk. he has arguably the highest base level of strength compared to the said versions of hulk. that combine with the fact that he can now breath underwater and increase his strength even underwater. gives him the over advantage.
the reason being :
1. compared to the savage hulk, wwhulk's base level of strength is already higher.
2. he's a better fighter
3. can breath underwater
4. has higher durability as stated by wolverine "your skin is harder to cut"
5. definitely last longer than all hulks, seeing as he went through several TEAMS in wwhulk and it's tie-ins.
6. reverts to banner ONLY under extreme conditions, as sentry proved he has the capacity to and only when he chooses too.
7. he should be faster seeing as the angrier he gets the faster he gets (as shown in the past repetitively)
8. he should have a faster healing factor as mention several times in the past, the angrier he gets the faster his healing factor gets.
to most misunderstand and being technical, wwhulk's only upgrades are gaining the ability to survive in space and adapting / evolving beyond his environment. as he gained the ability to breath underwater and survive the cold temperature of space BEFORE even planet hulk.
to say this, it means wwhulk is just hulk who has "focused rage". to explain this further and why this is not actually an upgrade, i'll copy and paste my own definition of focused rage from another thread.
[b]
wwhulk came to use after planet hulk. where he lost his wife, unborn child and people.
another note is that wwhulk was very angry. but instead of unleashing his fury, he was trained by hiroim to stay focused. hence "FOCUSED RAGE". he's angry but stayed in focus to his goal. which was to capture and make his opponents feel his pain. to make it short. he came back to earth for revenge.
focused rage : this, as you very well know, gave the hulk an extra boast in his base level of strength. due to the fact that the angrier he gets the stronger he gets. but his strength didn't really increase in almost all his fights and that includes his fight with the sentry because he stayed focused. so in saying that, IF planet hulk was about 100 tons, wwhulk would be about 120 to 130 tons. (an pale example but an acceptable one coz he showed that he was more than 150 tons to do what he did.
- under focused rage, not only did it increase his already vaunted strength but his ability to heal (as shown when he was cut or bruised, he later healed immediately), his durability (as stated by wolverine, You're skin is harder to cut...."). the rest of his abilities like leaping and speed were not shown to have increase probably because it was irrelevant. also, something to be noted, due to his focused rage, it was difficult / impossible for emma and prof x to control the hulk. (try talking to someone who's very angry and you'll see what i mean lol)
now having explained all of those and to sum it all up. wwhulk was stronger, faster, more durable, has access to banner's intellect and heals faster. oh! one other thing i failed to mention. bruce and hulk was shown to be working together in contrast to most of their shared existence. [/b]
so, all in all, my reason for stating, or rather going to state, wwhulk wins UNDERWATER, 10/10 is rather simple.
IF savage hulk can give trouble to namor underwater and then some but eventually lose, wwhulk holds no weakness that savage hulk has BUT has every advantage savage hulk has.
wwhulk has OVERALL advantage compared to savage hulk. those advantages are, he's SIGNIFICANTLY stronger, faster, more durable, fights a lot longer, fights a lot better, has access to banner's intellect (don't know what use it has but i'm sure the writers can come up with something) and lastly he can breath underwater.
MY TWO CENTS. :)
all these are opinions supported with facts and i hope to be addressed accordingly and with respect as i have / had never shown or implied anything that showed namor to a weakling in a manner what so ever.[/quote]
"With an hour of planning, it could go to Spidey. Since he has prep-time, he could arrive with Kryptonite."he could...assuming he knows about superman's weakness.....which he doesn't.
that maybe true. but to ignore his "higher" end feats is being ignorant. hulk was taken out by a snake. what does that tell you? the snake is the strongest one there is???
in any case, gladiator is a victim, a victim of the writers. he's been used to a point that he can move planets....and in another issue, got beaten up so badly, he'd want to call his mama. as you may have recall, superman taking on wonderwoman, he wasn't holding back. in that issue, superman tried to defeat wondwoman, he couldn't. why? because it fits the plot. that's why.
first time they fought, doomsday's power core was not yet established. so no. i disagree that it was the adaptive powers that he possessed when he (dd) became "hp" doomsday. the one that actually evolves. there was no record shown, in that SPECIFIC time, that doomsday (dos) had such abilities. no know fact and reference.
what? seriously? hulk has caught missles, caught a bullet with his teeth, caught quicksilver moving at "great speeds", caught several others that was moving fast. so no. hulk has been shown to "tag" speedsters. BUT no way in hell would hulk catch superman moving at light speeds. sound maybe...but not light. in no means am i saying hulk can RUN as fast a sound either. so no. his reflex are fast. fast enough to tag speedsters of quicksilver's level.
never said it wasn't valid. think about it, if superman just used his speed and muscle, that would make the story of superman's life entirely boring.
hence the reason why gettitoffme and i have been saying ALL ALONG. superman wins going all out, if not, hulk CAN win some. that was the entirety of the point.
using speed on hulk is something superman wouldn't do "at the start" of the fight. i've never seen him do this maneuver against someone HE DOES NOT EVEN KNOW. as a typical boyscout, he'd use his other abilities FIRST. like his strength and invulnerability. this attributes to superman's "basic" personality. which is to defeat someone with hurting someone.
to answer your question regarding his speed, no, no way in hell would hulk catch someone moving at speed of light, i've told this to brainiac1.0 (never give up) in the marvel boards. REPEATEDLY.
another point, who's to say, hulk can't hit superman to a point he koes him? superman's style of fighting is a :"sluggfest" type.brawl first, when defeated, learns about his opponent after or during the fight. yes, that's his "style". also, you would think that a weaker being can't KO you? think again.
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