Nathaniel_Christopher

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Nathaniel_Christopher

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Looks like whatever's going on in Red Hood and the Outlaws still isn't working. Shocker.

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Nathaniel_Christopher

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@rdclip Beyond shouldn't be a future version of the mainline DCU because that creates a lot of problems

You and I are agreed upon this. However, the current version of Batman Beyond most certainly does stem from the modern DC timeline. It doing so was a plot point in Future's End and the series afterwards has continued referencing events from it. It's basically a combination of the original animated series, the original comic book series, which continued using the Timmverse as its canon, and the current universe. Therefore, you've got characters and events from all 3 popping up. Needless to say it's something of a mess. Part of what made things continue working for the comic after the DCAU ended was that it continued to stick very closely to that timeline. The previous comic series was much better, though i'll admit that this one is picking up. As for Damian, I expect that the current arc will reveal that he's become the new head of the League of Assassins.

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Nathaniel_Christopher

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@aahz said:

@jameswayne: Orlando stated it in an interview you can find here.

"Orlando: Yeah, and if you're doing a huge Bat-family story, you have to start with Batman and Batwoman. And really, you have to start with Batman, Batwoman and Nightwing, which is what we do, because that's the Gotham trinity there - the three pillars of the entire Bat-family."

And I don't think that Kate is a pillar of the Batfamily, I would actually rank her somewhere at the bottom when it comes to her importance for the Batfamily.

Calling Batwoman a pillar of the Bat Family is honestly just character shilling, because it doesn't actually line up with her history at all.

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The value of something like this can't be weighed. It'd be nice if it could manage to incorporate issues/volumes from series related to Batman as well, such as Nightwing, Robin, Birds of Prey, and Batgirl.

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@Soulaf said:

They gave Tims first costume to Jason? i guess they didnt want to draw dick and jason wearing the same costume.

That's not Tim's first costume (The "R" is less stylized, matching Dick's, the cape is pure yellow on both sides, and the belt appears to be black and yellow). Besides the long pants, it's a dead ringer for the one Dick's wearing. They then changed Jason's hair in the same way they usually do to differentiate him from Dick Grayson.

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Nathaniel_Christopher

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Personally, I enjoyed the Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive event quite a bit and thought that it served as an excellent conclusion to Ed Brubaker's Batman run in general, which continued the trend of showing a Batman that was growing more and more detatched from the identity of Bruce Wayne and the people closest to him. I thought the overall plot was interesting, along with the different reactions of Batman's supporting characters to Bruce Wayne being arrested. The event also has 3 of my favorite Batman moments:

1. Nightwing socking Batman in the jaw.

2. Oracle pointing out to Nightwing how Bruce basically goes through phases where he treats people like crap and then apologizes when he finally realizes he needs them, only to go and do the same thing again.

3. Batman admitting that he's Bruce Wayne to himself and always has been.

IIRC it's also where we got the idea that Batman has various random Bat Bunkers/mini-Bat Caves set up around Gotham City.

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Nathaniel_Christopher

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Don't like his work, I need things more pointed out vs massive crazy complex plots. He butchered batman in general, only Bruce Wayne is batman not a few hundred or more people around the globe. Bringing Jason back ruined the reminder of the robin costume in the glass case to show the price of bing batman. And giving him a kid was another thing that seemed to mess it up even more.

Morrison didn't bring Jason back.

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Nathaniel_Christopher

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I think you could only be annoyed by Shiva beating Batman if you hadn't read certain stories involving the character. Same goes for her being Cassandra's mother, which was true of the Pre-Flashpoint reality as well, as detailed in Cassandra Cain's Batgirl series. Both of these stem from a simple lack of knowledge regarding the character on your part. I suppose that i'd agree that Shiva has never been a major Batman character per se, but she has been treated as a major character in the DCU for 20+ years now, with it specifically being her fighting skill that she is so highly praised for. Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint, she was confirmed as the best assassin in the world and a top martial artist who could easily tangle with Batman, Connor Hawke, and Cassandra Cain. She grew in popularity and use, going from The Question Series, to Batman, to Robin, to Batgirl, and to Black Canary and the Birds of Prey. Basically, if you're a notable martial artist in the DCU, you're going to come across Lady Shiva at some point. IIRC, her very first Post-Crisis meeting with Batman had the two of them fight and Batman unable to beat her. This woman's been kicking ass in comics for decades man lol

"the whole appeal of Batman is his ability to overcome and his all-round general badassness"

Yes.

"as the best fighter around."

No.

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Nathaniel_Christopher

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@kmb501 said:

@dragonrampage

It happens in Death of The Family or at least it's heavily implied.

Also, doesn't he find something out in Batman and Robin Must Die? If Joker didn't know Batman's identity, would it have made sense for him to realize that Dick Greyson and Damien needed extra help?

Not even really implied in my opinon. Joker states he does, Batman refuses to believe him, and then surprise, surprise, Endgame rolls around and Joker proves the statement to be true.

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Nathaniel_Christopher

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@aahz said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:

Describe a major event, because the current story arc is just a continuation of the first one, in the same way that the recent "I Am Bane" arc for Batman was a continuation from the previous one. I wouldn't really say there's anything major about it or that there was even anything major about the first arc for that matter. Since it's then a team book you need the threats the character's are facing to be of a certain scale, something that they themselves probably can't handle on their own. Which is naturally going to leave the typical events going on in the books of major characters such as Nightwing seem smaller in comparison.

Tec has at the moment basically one city wide attack after the next thats something I find pretty major. You need of course bigger threads for a team, but maybe having this team with all minor charcters, is just not such a good idea in te first place.

@nathaniel_christopher said:
Batgirl, regardless of how good either is, has 2 series of her own,

Batgirl wasn't involved in anything big since convergence, and her two series aren't exactly doing good at the moment.

I guess, but that just seems like typical team book stuff to me. The JLA is a team that protects the world, so they deal with largescale, world ending threats. The Team is supposed to protect Gotham City, so they deal with threats to the entire city. It'd be silly to see all these characters just chasing after Riddler or Mr. Freeze every other story. This isn't the first team with a bunch of minor characters, either in comics or DC, and I really can't think of a better solution as to what to do with all of these characters. You can't possibly give all of them a solo. So, what else can you really do here?

Agreed, Batgirl isn't doing great, but she's still been given 2 series. Both with her name in them. That's more than most other members of the Bat Family got. Then, just like Nightwing, she's currently got a film concept on the table. That's obviously going to come with a greater push down the line. So, there seem to be some plans being worked on, if nothing else. I'm basically saying that while Barbara isn't being treated like Nightwing is, there's also a difference between the treatment she receives and the treatment that Tim Drake receives.

* implying that Azrael, Clayface, Tim Drake, Cass, Steph, Batwoman, and Batwing are minor characters * LOL...some of these character have been around since the 90's some far longer than that, some have headllined solo-books with good sales numbers for several years in a row...even Batwing and Batwoman who are the "smaller characters" out of the bunch, have already had solo-runs and starred on animated films.

How long a character has existed really doesn't mean squat to be honest. Vibe's been around since the 90s and has been on the Justice League, but he's a minor character in the grand scheme of things and probably always will be. Even having your own solo series doesn't necessarily make you a major character. Black Lightning's had one and he's never been a major character. Don't even try to act as if Batwing is a major character. He isn't and appearing in an animated film doesn't change that. It's like I was basically saying about the difference between the treatment of Barbara and Tim. There's an obvious gap between the status that Batman has in the Bat Family and the status that Nightwing has. There's then an obvious difference between Nightwing's status and say Jason Todd's status. There's another obvious difference between Jason Todd and Batwing. We might have to create strict rules for what we mean when we say major, but I think if we can simply agree on Nightwing being a major character that we can easily root out the characters who are minor. There's also something to be said for being famous in terms of the title you hold and being famous in terms of the actual name. Bruce Wayne and Batman are names that are equally famous in my opinion. Same with Superman and Clark Kent. Clayface is fairly famous as a name, but who can really name the individual Clayfaces? In this case, the concept of a villain named Clayface, with mud/shapeshifting abilities is more famous than the actual identity of Clayface apart from that.

Going to comment on your comment regarding how replacing Terry with Tim ruined Batman Beyond: I agree 100%. That was a terrible choice in direction that no one asked for or wanted. Really it's just part of the desire to bridge the Batman Beyond concept to the main universe that I was talking about yesterday.