Why it is completely plausible that Batman can beat Superman.

It's somewhat frustrating recently as there seems to be a lot of activity on the Batman vs Superman front, with people thinking the idea of Batman beating Superman ridiculous.

I'm going to try and explain why that is not at all ridiculous and why it makes a lot of sense that Batman could beat Superman without resorting to PIS or CIS.

Keep in mind I am not trying to make a point that Batman WILL beat Superman, just that a good writer could write a believable story where Batman triumphs, due to Batman having a different or superior set of skills to Superman and using them to full advantage.

  • Batman has a superior mind, is more intelligent, more of a tactician and more of a strategist. Superman is an ordinary joe with powers who does good. Batman's ability to surmise a situation or scenario to ensure he has the upper hand should not be underestimated.
  • Psychology. Superman is far more likely to be able to be manipulated than Batman is. Using his love for Lois or his parents against him, or perhaps his need to prevent harm from happening to innocents at any cost are just the surface.
  • Superman's weaknesses, are huge weaknesses. Get enough Kryptonite and he is helpless as a baby. This is arguably Batman's biggest advantage and it should not be underestimated. Batman has the knowledge and means to take full advantage of this. A Kryptonite ray? Synthesized Kryptonite that acts in a different way ala Tower of Babel (demonstrated to be very effective)? Blasting him with red sunlight is also a possibility.
  • As fast/strong as Superman is, Batman could easily manipulate him into a trap. That was probably the most important aspect of the battle in Hush. Not that Batman held of Superman, but that Batman controlled every aspect of the battle. With more prep, even without Superman holding back, I don't see why batman couldn't manipulate Superman into somewhere bathed with red sunlight or kryptonite.
  • Lead. Superman can't see through Lead. That gives Batman a huge advantage in being able to hide from Superman. I wouldn't be surprised if there were already lead safehouses or tunnels or something in place that Batman could utilize if it became necessary to do so.
  • Batman is a master of disguise. This also should not be overlooked. Batman would be able to hide from Superman as necessary or impersonate people as necessary to get close to Clark for whatever reason was necessary.
  • Nanotechnology. We've seen in recent issues of Superman that he is not able to withstand nanobots entering his system and affecting him.
  • Batman is one of the worlds top martial artists. Top 3 I believe, after Cain and Shiva. If Superman is weakened to the point that Batman and Superman are trading blows, Batman is going to have the upper hand, without a doubt. Superman can throw punches but relies on his powers. When it comes to hand to hand combat on equal grounds, Batman has the advantage due to his dedication, training and experience.

I may have left some things out, but that is essentially why I think Batman vs Superman is more of a level playing ground than Superman fans are comfortable admitting.

Superman bloodlusted is not at all a level playing field and Batman has no chance.

Short of that, I think it a very believable story can be done with Batman beating Superman, without PIS or CIS. That is my only point.

An example scenario:

  1. Batman and Superman disagree over something to the point where they would physically fight over it. Batman has something Superman needs, or a world of innocents will be destroyed. Batman needs it for what he believes is a greater purpose, with the planet of innocents being a necessary cost.
  2. Superman has to fly back from Apokolips (no boom tubes) to earth, while Batman is already on earth, so Batman has prep time.
  3. Superman comes to Gotham to look for Batman and take back the key/device.
  4. Batman predicts where Superman will appear in Gotham based on either history, or knowing where he is coming from.
  5. He then makes his location known making sure he takes into account Superman's speed (assuming hear that Superman would not fly at lightspeed because he would not consider it necessary and because doing so could have negative consequences).
  6. Superman goes to Batman and follows him into a warehouse or subway, which Bruce has rigged with red sun light and kryptonite rays (as many as would be required to bring him down).
  7. The kryptonite was encased in lead and disguised as part of the building/infrastructure so superman didn't suspect.
  8. Superman is unable to leave as the Kryptonite is near all exit points and Superman is weakened to the point he can't use brute force to escape
  9. Batman should then essentially have Superman at his mercy, or brought down to a level where he can beat him physically.

I took about a minute to think of this example scenario, but with fleshed out details I think it could work. If anything it is too simple, and with a greater amount of prep the story could be far more interesting and plausible.

A final reminder: This is not a battle thread. I am not saying Batman will or could always beat Superman.

I am simply making the point that Batman could beat Superman in a plausible way, taking Superman's weaknesses into account, without relying on CIS or PIS.

Superman is not a god, he has weaknesses and lacks skills and training that put him at a disadvantage against someone tactical/strategic knowledge.

235 Comments
237 Comments
Posted by entropy_aegis

@MuyJingo said:

It's somewhat frustrating recently as there seems to be a lot of activity on the Batman vs Superman front, with people thinking the idea of Batman beating Superman ridiculous.

I'm going to try and explain why that is not at all ridiculous and why it makes a lot of sense that Batman could beat Superman without resorting to PIS or CIS.

  • Batman has a superior mind, is more intelligent, more of a tactician and more of a strategist. Superman is an ordinary joe with powers who does good. Batman's ability to surmise a situation or scenario to ensure he has the upper hand should not be underestimated.
  • Psychology. Superman is far more likely to be able to be manipulated than Batman is. Using his love for Lois or his parents against him, or perhaps his need to prevent harm from happening to innocents at any cost are just the surface.
  • Superman's weaknesses, are huge weaknesses. Get enough Kryptonite and he is helpless as a baby. This is arguably Batman's biggest advantage and it should not be underestimated. Batman has the knowledge and means to take full advantage of this. A Kryptonite ray? Synthesized Kryptonite that acts in a different way ala Tower of Babel (demonstrated to be very effective)? Blasting him with red sunlight is also a possibility.
  • As fast/strong as Superman is, Batman could easily manipulate him into a trap. That was probably the most important aspect of the battle in Hush. Not that Batman held of Superman, but that Batman controlled every aspect of the battle. With more prep, even without Superman holding back, I don't see why batman couldn't manipulate Superman into somewhere bathed with red sunlight or kryptonite.
  • Lead. Superman can't see through Lead. That gives Batman a huge advantage in being able to hide from Superman. I wouldn't be surprised if there were already lead safehouses or tunnels or something in place that Batman could utilize if it became necessary to do so.
  • Batman is a master of disguise. This also should not be overlooked. Batman would be able to hide from Superman as necessary or impersonate people as necessary to get close to Clark for whatever reason was necessary.
  • Nanotechnology. We've seen in recent issues of Superman that he is not able to withstand nanobots entering his system and affecting him.
  • Batman is one of the worlds top martial artists. Top 3 I believe, after Cain and Shiva. If Superman is weakened to the point that Batman and Superman are trading blows, Batman is going to have the upper hand, without a doubt. Superman can throw punches but relies on his powers. When it comes to hand to hand combat on equal grounds, Batman has the advantage due to his dedication, training and experience.

I may have left some things out, but that is essentially why I think Batman vs Superman is more of a level playing ground than Superman fans are comfortable admitting.

Superman bloodlusted is not at all a level playing field. Short of that, I think it a very believable story can be done with Batman beating Superman, without PIS or CIS.

Batman vs say, Black Adam or Captain Marvel is far less of a level playing field, because those characters being magic based do not have the same vulnerabilities that Superman has.

Comments?

Superman has a superior mind,c'mon he can accelerate his thinking process to light speeds.Superman is only an ordinary Joe in front of Batman because the writers want to make the Bat look useful.

Superman knows Batman secrets as well,your argument would have held more weight if it was one sided but as it stands it really is not.Superman knows about Alfred,the Robins,Batgirls etc and he can fly to them with in a second.

And what about Batman's weakness? hmmm lets see he needs sleep,food etc and he'll die if Superman even lays a finger on him.

Hush=LOEB.

Who needs disguise when you can move at light speeds.

Superman's tech>>>>>>>>>>>Batman's tech

Batman dies period.

Posted by MuyJingo

@entropy_aegis said:

Superman has a superior mind,c'mon he can accelerate his thinking process to light speeds.Superman is only an ordinary Joe in front of Batman because the writers want to make the Bat look useful.

Do you have any proof of this? That he can accelerate his thinking process as you say? I know there was a more recent introduction that he had Kryptonian intellect or some bull, but..., well, that's pretty new.

Kal-El was an ordinary Kryptonian placed in extraordinary circumstances. What makes you think he was innately above average for a Kryptonian in any way?

Superman knows Batman secrets as well,your argument would have held more weight if it was one sided but as it stands it really is not.Superman knows about Alfred,the Robins,Batgirls etc and he can fly to them with in a second.

I don't understand what point you are arguing against here. Can you please clarify?

And what about Batman's weakness? hmmm lets see he needs sleep,food etc and he'll die if Superman even lays a finger on him.

1) Batman's weaknesses are not exactly weaknesses, and irrelivant if he has had food and sleep. 2) If superman is weakened as I explain in the post, then no, Batman won't die if Superman lays a finger on him.

Hush=LOEB.

Hush=CANON

Who needs disguise when you can move at light speeds.

Um....WTF? Whooosh?

Moving at light speed isn't going to help you detect someone in a perfect disguise.

Also, can Superman actually move at light speed? I thought he isn't as fast as the Flash even....

Superman's tech>>>>>>>>>>>Batman's tech

Even if that were true, which it doesn't seem to be (Kryptonian tech is more advanced then Batman's tech, but Superman doesn't have a lot and doesn't carry it around), Batman's tech only has to be "good enough".

Anyway, where did I even mention Batman's tech as being a factor?

Batman dies period.

Unlikely. Superman doesn't kill.

Posted by royale_with_cheese

Well CIS (Superman regards Batman as a real threat and isn't above using lethal force) and PIS (Kryptonite isn't just lying around in abundance like D.C. usually depicts it) off, Superman would stomp Batman, regardless of all the attributes that you have listed. Batman's biggest asset is his mind, but he can only do so much in a certain period of time to make up for his lack of anything "super', whereas Superman already has everything he needs at his disposal. I.e. super strength, speed, invulnerability, etc. Obviously, all this is hypothetical, and assumes that they just decide to engage each other for no reason, in which case, Batman dies before he even sees red and blue. Now, if Batman were given prep, like he always does, then that would be a different game.

Posted by Saren

What nonsense. I'll address this idiocy once I've addressed the idiotic comment you posted yesterday on my blog.

Moderator
Posted by MuyJingo

@royale_with_cheese said:

Well CIS (Superman regards Batman as a real threat and isn't above using lethal force) and PIS (Kryptonite isn't just lying around in abundance like D.C. usually depicts it) off, Superman would stomp Batman, regardless of all the attributes that you have listed. Batman's biggest asset is his mind, but he can only do so much in a certain period of time to make up for his lack of anything "super', whereas Superman already has everything he needs at his disposal. I.e. super strength, speed, invulnerability, etc. Obviously, all this is hypothetical, and assumes that they just decide to engage each other for no reason, in which case, Batman dies before he even sees red and blue. Now, if Batman were given prep, like he always does, then that would be a different game.

My entire post is about Batman having prep, how he could prep and why it is plausible with prep he could win.

Kryptonite does not have to be lying around, it can be synthesized.

Posted by MuyJingo

@CitizenBane said:

What nonsense. I'll address this idiocy once I've addressed the idiotic comment you posted yesterday on my blog.

Dude. Don't bother. I'm not interested in conversing with you since you dish out insults and introduce strawmen or otherwise misrepresent my point.

If you can behave yourself, then I'd love to debate the points I have made with you.

Posted by Saren

@MuyJingo said:

@CitizenBane said:

What nonsense. I'll address this idiocy once I've addressed the idiotic comment you posted yesterday on my blog.

Dude. Don't bother. I'm not interested in conversing with you since you dish out insults and introduce strawmen or otherwise misrepresent my point.

If you can behave yourself, then I'd love to debate the points I have made with you.

There are so many things wrong with this from start to finish. Not least of which is the "Can Superman even move at light speed?". Are you serious? Jesus Christ.

Moderator
Posted by sethysquare
Ill like to clarify a few misconception. Kryptonite is harmful to everyone. Not only Superman. Next, in hush, Superman was being mind controlled so it didnt make a difference the outcome is because he isnt putting in 100%. Also the tagline for Superman is faster than a speeding bullet. So what supes will do is fly faster than a Speeding bullet till he is behind Batman, grab him from the back and fly him to space. Since he can travel faster than a speeding bullet, he can reach outerspace in a few mins then punch batman to the sun. Checkmate.
Posted by sethysquare
Btw if this is about having prep then Supes would come prepared also. Kryptonite cant be synthesized and is only available in Kal and Kara's ship as engine. Pre flashpoint, Supes have tech that batman cant even dream of having. Post flashpoint he can still kick batman's ass anytime. A punch in his face with heat vision and his intelligence would be owning
Posted by MuyJingo

:

  • Kryptonite can be synthesized. It has been in canon.
  • Kryptonite is harmful to humans over a long period of time. It screws with Superman pretty much instantaneously.
  • Kryptonite could not use his speed if weakened by one of the ways I list.
  • Even if Superman did prepare, what makes you think he could prepare to the same extent as Batman? He isn't a tactician or strategist....
  • What tech does Superman have that Batman can't dream of, that would be useful in a fight?

Everyone should understand I'm not saying Batman can beat Superman every time. I'm just saying it is plausible that Batman could beat Superman.

Posted by sethysquare
Kryptonite is retcon such that it is only in the ship's engine. It cant be synthesized post flashpoint. The only people that has access to Kryptonite and store them properly is Supes and kara. Kryptonite doesnt affect people over a long period of time anymore. So only the kryptonite man can touch kryptonite now. Next, preflashpoint, Supes uses the fortress to store weapons so powerful its extremely dangerous such as the gravity beam. He even have a sun eater in his fortress. Lastly, he can use just anyone of his fancy scifi weapon and exterminate batman. Or he could easly wear a lead suit to protect himself against kryptonite which he has done before. Kryptonians are said to be a level 7 intellience creatures which is canon if you have read action. Humans are said to be level 3 only. So no matter how smart batman is he is never asintelligent as supes. In Krypton babies are shown to be sitting on the ledge because they are too smart to accidentally fall down and kill themselves. Clark has been pretending to be dumb to fit in to school so that he doesnt stand out too much of the crowd. In earth one that is also the same case. The tone of the book is such that he is an outsider searching for a "purpose" but either ways he is shown to be extremely intelligent, an over achiever. He can get any job he want, sports star, scientist, whatever. He managed to solve the equation that scientist have been trying to solve for months. He could have anything he wanted. In dcnu continuity it seems to mirror the same facts, just done differently

@MuyJingo:

Edited by sethysquare
I think kryptonians are level ten intelligence, not seven. My mistake.
So in general what Im saying is without prep Batman cant defeat Superman at all. With prep from both sides, Supes can also stage a highly intelligent move, alot like what he did in theaction #775. The only possible time batman could possibly defeat supes is perhaps if Supes is not prepared and bats sneak up on him fully prepared. But even so, chances are slim. Very very slim. Superman also know where the batcave is because he has super hearing, he can easily blow up the batcave and thats checkmate again.
Posted by MuyJingo

  • The whole post is saying Batman can plausibly beat Superman with Prep. Never one did I or would I claim Batman could beat Supes without prep.
  • Can you provide some evidence that pre flashpoint, Kryptonite is only in the ships engine? I know it was made very rare after Birthright but...it was still possible to get it.
  • What makes you say it can't be synthesized post flashpoint? Where is that supported in a DCnU comic?
  • It's true that Superman has weapons he has confiscated, for lack of a better word. I don't think it would be in character for him to use them. With prep, he may choose to. That is a very good point. It doesn't detract from my point, which is only that it is plausible that Batman could beat Superman. Remember, this is not a battle thread.
  • I really hate the whole Kryptonian super intelligence thing. It's such a recent development. I guess it makes sense in a way but...gah. In any event, even if/with Supes having essentially a far greater IQ, he still doesn't know how to be tactical/strategic. He can't even solve crimes which is why he has to call on/rely Batman for that stuff.

Again, please remember this is not a battle thread. I'm simply saying that it is plausible that Batman could beat Superman without relying on PIS or CIS.

Posted by Gambit1024

Hm.... I'm sorry, but I can't take any of those points seriously.

Sure, that'd be enough to take on a whole mess of other characters, but if Superman's actually trying (which, if this is supposed to be a battle, he will be) this "fight" would end in seconds. Am I "being a fanboy" or trolling? No, I'm just calling it as I see it.

Intelligence, psychology, being a master combatant, and all those other things are completely irrelevant, because Superman (who's speed is only outclassed by the Flash, and one of the strongest beings to have ever walked the Earth) would've charged in and out before Batman would even knew what was coming. Batman has zero chance of having a reaction time, when Superman's using his speed. Maybe if he had years --decades-- of prep (which he did in the sequel to TDKR) he might stand a better chance, but ultimately, Superman's got him beat.

Maybe if it were Golden Age Superman (who could only jump, and had super strength and speed), Batman could beat him, but if this is the modern age Superman, I'm sorry, but Batman has no chance.

Posted by MuyJingo

What you are describing is pretty close to bloodlust, no?

There are basically an infinite number of scenarios for Batman and Superman fighting.

I'm saying some of those scenarios have Batman winning in a plausible way.

For example, if the battle starts with Batman drawing Superman out, what's to say he can't lure him somewhere (or already be) where he would have the advantage?

If he had a big enough chunk of K on him, then could Superman even get close?

Posted by sethysquare
I know this isnt a battle thread. im just stating my opinions supported by what i read. No worries im not attacking you. Also I said Kryptonite is the ship's engine post flashpoint. Im not sure if it can be synthesized. But so far it hasnt been done post flashpoint. With regards to is it out of character for Superman to use his weapons, it would be outta character for bats to attack supes. So that didnt really matter. Like I said with prep from both sides, batman will definitely not win. With prep from Bats only, he might have a chance but its slim, considering he dont have access to K. Even if he does, Supes has his super intelligence so.... But honestly I dont care if supes is powerful or not. It doesnt make a diff to me.

@MuyJingo: @MuyJingo:

Posted by Deranged Midget

@MuyJingo said:

What you are describing is pretty close to bloodlust, no?

There are basically an infinite number of scenarios for Batman and Superman fighting.

I'm saying some of those scenarios have Batman winning in a plausible way.

For example, if the battle starts with Batman drawing Superman out, what's to say he can't lure him somewhere (or already be) where he would have the advantage?

If he had a big enough chunk of K on him, then could Superman even get close?

Ok... Yes, if Superman wasn't willing to hurt Batman he might have a chance at defeating Superman in one or another so I can understand where you are coming from. But what Gambit is mentioning is, if Batman is willing to put enough effort to grab a chunk of Kryptonite big enough to put Superman down permanently, that's basically Batman lacking any morals. If Superman actually utilized his speed, he could strip Batman of all his gadgets and disable him with a flick to the back of the head. That's not exactly "bloodlusted", merely Superman utilizing his powers tactically.

Moderator
Posted by Gambit1024

@MuyJingo: Then those scenarios have to be very specific. If Superman has the full intent of beating Batman, whether its to kill him, knock him out, whatever, he's going to do it. If, however, he isn't fighting back/not trying to hurt him, then he has a problem. He knows that if Bruce wants to be left alone, he'll leave him alone.

The way kryptonite works heavily depends on the writer. Sometimes the effects are instantaneous, and sometimes it does it over a few seconds. If it's the latter (which it usually is), Superman would have more than enough time to do his job before the kryptonite takes effect. Even if it's the former, Superman doesn't have to be close to do something to Batman. His heat vision (which is supposedly hotter than the sun) is more than enough to kill anyone, including Batman. Superman's got super-vision and pin-point accuracy, so a moving target shouldn't be a problem.

Posted by azza04

Not even going to bother.

Posted by MuyJingo

@sethysquare said:

I know this isnt a battle thread. im just stating my opinions supported by what i read. No worries im not attacking you. Also I said Kryptonite is the ship's engine post flashpoint. Im not sure if it can be synthesized. But so far it hasnt been done post flashpoint. With regards to is it out of character for Superman to use his weapons, it would be outta character for bats to attack supes. So that didnt really matter. Like I said with prep from both sides, batman will definitely not win. With prep from Bats only, he might have a chance but its slim, considering he dont have access to K. Even if he does, Supes has his super intelligence so.... But honestly I dont care if supes is powerful or not. It doesnt make a diff to me.

@MuyJingo: @MuyJingo:

Well why limit the scenario to post flashpoint? Pre flashpoint is still interesting.

Super intelligence isn't a factor, since Superman doesn't have the training and knowledge to make use of it.

It would not be out of character for Batman to attack supes if motivated. It would always be out of character for Superman to kill Bruce.

Don't worry, not feeling attacked and appreciate your replies :)

Posted by sinestro_GL

My goodness...not another one of these threads.

You guys know that ComicVine is not just about Batman vs Superman, right?

Posted by The Stegman

I will say that with some good prep, that Batman could beat Superman if he surprise attacks him, but in a one on one fight, even with prep Batman cannot beat him.

Posted by joshmightbe
Posted by MuyJingo

@Gambit1024 said:

@MuyJingo: Then those scenarios have to be very specific. If Superman has the full intent of beating Batman, whether its to kill him, knock him out, whatever, he's going to do it. If, however, he isn't fighting back/not trying to hurt him, then he has a problem. He knows that if Bruce wants to be left alone, he'll leave him alone.

I can think of a few scenarios already, so I don't think it's that hard.

For example....Batman and Superman disagree over something to the point where they would physically fight over it. There is some mechanism that would result in a planet of inhabitants being destroyed but save the universe. Batman wants to save the universe, Superman won't stand for it. (have not really thought that out but something alone those lines).

Superman has to fly back from Apokolips (no boom tubes) so Batman has prep time.

Superman comes to Gotham to look for Batman and take back the key/device or whatever.

Batman predicts where Superman will appear in Gotham based on either history, or knowing where he is coming from.

He then makes his location known making sure he takes into account his speed. (assuming hear that Superman would not fly at lightspeed because he would not consider it necessary and because doing so could have negative effects).

Superman goes to bruce and follows him into a warehouse or subway, which Bruce has rigged with red sun light and kryptonite rays (as many as would be required to bring him down).

The kryptonite was encased in lead and disguised as part of the building/infrastructure so superman didn't suspect.

Superman is unable to leave as the K is near all exit points.

Batman then has a vulnerable/weakened Superman, no?

The way kryptonite works heavily depends on the writer. Sometimes the effects are instantaneous, and sometimes it does it over a few seconds. If it's the latter (which it usually is), Superman would have more than enough time to do his job before the kryptonite takes effect. Even if it's the former, Superman doesn't have to be close to do something to Batman. His heat vision (which is supposedly hotter than the sun) is more than enough to kill anyone, including Batman. Superman's got super-vision and pin-point accuracy, so a moving target shouldn't be a problem.

I just argued that very same point, that the effects of Kryptonite vary depending on the writer in another thread, so I agree whole heartedly. The point is the effects could be written in such a way that Batman could take out Superman.

If Superman can't get near Batman, then Batman can protect against heat vision and/or go somewhere protected. In which case, there would be no fight as Bruce could never catch Supes.

Posted by Saren

On second thought, I'm going to wait two days, since by then I'll have plenty of scans to post to shut down each horribly inaccurate point one by one.

Moderator
Posted by sethysquare
Actually Super intelligence isnt a new developement. Superman has in some form or another always been shown to be from a superior being. Kryptonians have been shown to be a highly advanced city with people of high intelligence, which is why they have capacity to build rockets that can travel through galaxies. However writers or people's perception of supes has always been he is a boy scout all brawns no brains. Which is untrue. Preflashpoint Superman is even more powerful physically, plus he has all the techs he confiscated. Only advantage batman has is that he is more accesible to K.

@MuyJingo:

Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee

@CitizenBane said:

@MuyJingo said:

@CitizenBane said:

What nonsense. I'll address this idiocy once I've addressed the idiotic comment you posted yesterday on my blog.

Dude. Don't bother. I'm not interested in conversing with you since you dish out insults and introduce strawmen or otherwise misrepresent my point.

If you can behave yourself, then I'd love to debate the points I have made with you.

There are so many things wrong with this from start to finish. Not least of which is the "Can Superman even move at light speed?". Are you serious? Jesus Christ.

Why don't you post the blog you made? Or is that the blog that he commented on?

Posted by Saren

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@CitizenBane said:

@MuyJingo said:

@CitizenBane said:

What nonsense. I'll address this idiocy once I've addressed the idiotic comment you posted yesterday on my blog.

Dude. Don't bother. I'm not interested in conversing with you since you dish out insults and introduce strawmen or otherwise misrepresent my point.

If you can behave yourself, then I'd love to debate the points I have made with you.

There are so many things wrong with this from start to finish. Not least of which is the "Can Superman even move at light speed?". Are you serious? Jesus Christ.

Why don't you post the blog you made? Or is that the blog that he commented on?

Yes.

Moderator
Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee

@CitizenBane said:

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@CitizenBane said:

@MuyJingo said:

@CitizenBane said:

What nonsense. I'll address this idiocy once I've addressed the idiotic comment you posted yesterday on my blog.

Dude. Don't bother. I'm not interested in conversing with you since you dish out insults and introduce strawmen or otherwise misrepresent my point.

If you can behave yourself, then I'd love to debate the points I have made with you.

There are so many things wrong with this from start to finish. Not least of which is the "Can Superman even move at light speed?". Are you serious? Jesus Christ.

Why don't you post the blog you made? Or is that the blog that he commented on?

Yes.

I'm gonna have to check it out then. I'm definitely excited to see you unload on this guy.

Posted by MuyJingo

@sethysquare said:

Actually Super intelligence isnt a new developement. Superman has in some form or another always been shown to be from a superior being. Kryptonians have been shown to be a highly advanced city with people of high intelligence, which is why they have capacity to build rockets that can travel through galaxies. However writers or people's perception of supes has always been he is a boy scout all brawns no brains. Which is untrue. Preflashpoint Superman is even more powerful physically, plus he has all the techs he confiscated. Only advantage batman has is that he is more accesible to K.

@MuyJingo:

There is a very big difference between a species being more advanced because they have been around longer and had more time to learn things, and each member of that species being super intelligent.

Clark being ridiculously intelligent is a fairly recent development. Having him read entire textbooks in a few hours, comprehend and memorize everything is not something Superman from 10 years ago would do, AFAIK.

Posted by MuyJingo

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:


I'm gonna have to check it out then. I'm definitely excited to see you unload on this guy.

Considering the last "debate" I had with CB included him resorting to insults and arguing against strawman, as well as insisting his opinion/interpretation not shared by anyone else was somehow objectivley correct....I can't say I'm worried.

Of course, I'll respond to any fair point made. I'll be ignoring any personal attacks or misrepresentations of my points.

Posted by DragonfireXL

Superman has gone up against the likes of Metallo, Reactron, even Kryptonite Man why would a little chunk of kryptonite be enough to defeat him. Supes could blow up the Kryptonite from a distance with heat vision, he could blow Bats and it away with Super Breath, or he could just wear a lead suit if both of them are prepared. If Batman is willing to kill Clark, than it stands to reason that Clark would put down Bruce as quickly as possible.

Also even without his powers there is enough tech in the fortress that if he were able to get to it he would give Batman a run for his money. Legion Flight Ring can simulate flight, Gravity Gun make it impossible for Bats to move, and Phantom Zone Projector sends Batman away.

Edited by SupremeHyperion

Superman in all honesty would have no problem making batman disappear and everyone in their right mind knows it. The only chance batman would have is if superman agreed to drink a kryptonite smoothie everyday for a week as well as promise not to use any of his powers while laying facedown on the ground in a lead room and batman was allowed to have the help of every JL member ever to help him.

There is no way that Batman should or could ever take down the Kryptonian. DC tries to make batman seem like a threat to keep superman from being invincible. Damnit Batman hasn't even been able to get rid of the lame villains he faces.

That would be like me wanting to try and convince everyone that Taskmaster (who is one of my favorite marvel characters) could take down thor.

Posted by joshmightbe

Actually Superman's mind has to work faster than a human's due to the fact that he can be useful while using his Super speed. If his Brain didn't possess beyond human thought processing speed he'd pretty much be an uncontrolled missile while in super fast flight. The only reason Batman even has a chance against Superman is because he holds back. If Supes was out for blood Batman would be dead before he was even aware that he was in danger.

Posted by Gambit1024

@SupremeHyperion said:

Superman in all honesty would have no problem making batman disappear and everyone in their right mind knows it. The only chance batman would have is if superman agreed to drink a kryptonite smoothie everyday for a week as well as promise not to use any of his powers while laying facedown on the ground in a lead room and batman was allowed to have the help of every JL member ever to help him.

There is no way that Batman should or could ever take down the Kryptonian. DC tries to make batman seem like a threat to keep superman from being invincible. Damnit Batman hasn't even been able to get rid of the lame villains he faces.

That would be like me wanting to try and convince everyone that Taskmaster (who is one of my favorite marvel characters) could take down thor.

Actually... Yeah. That's pretty damn accurate, lol.

@CitizenBane: Give 'em hell, Bane. When's your next blog, btw? I want moar.

Posted by sethysquare
IIRC he has been shown to be able to digest large amount of information due to super speed.

@MuyJingo:

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000

And this is why Batman is a more famous character at this point.

Superman is to damn powerfull, people cant care for Superman becuase lets face it, Batman is way more easy to belive in that Superman who at the end is more powerfull that the DBZ guys, also that the reason why Dargon Ball became more popular that Superman in many parts of the world, here in Mexico, kids still like DB even after the 17 years since the first episode air, but no kid care for Superman.

At this point, Superman is less popular that not only Batman, but other comic book characters.

DC needs to make him weaker, i mean Superman is more powerfull that all the DBZ characters, why i should care about him?.

If Superman had a real weak point, people would care for Superman.

Posted by joshmightbe

@DeathpooltheT1000: Yea a normal human that can lift a thousand pounds without looking like Lou Ferigno, knows all forms of martial arts, is a super genius, has unlimited money, is a ninja and an expert engineer and lives in castle so realistic

Posted by joshmightbe

Lets be honest here Batman is a classic Freudian male fantasy wrapped in a cape, there is no way in reality that a normal human could do an eighth of the crap Batman does without hundreds of billions of dollars and a training regiment that wouldn't allow time for anything else aside from constant training and maybe some breaks to eat and sleep to keep him alive

Edited by DEGRAAF

@MuyJingo said:

It's somewhat frustrating recently as there seems to be a lot of activity on the Batman vs Superman front, with people thinking the idea of Batman beating Superman ridiculous.

I'm going to try and explain why that is not at all ridiculous and why it makes a lot of sense that Batman could beat Superman without resorting to PIS or CIS.

  1. Batman has a superior mind, is more intelligent, more of a tactician and more of a strategist. Superman is an ordinary joe with powers who does good. Batman's ability to surmise a situation or scenario to ensure he has the upper hand should not be underestimated.
  2. Psychology. Superman is far more likely to be able to be manipulated than Batman is. Using his love for Lois or his parents against him, or perhaps his need to prevent harm from happening to innocents at any cost are just the surface.
  3. Superman's weaknesses, are huge weaknesses. Get enough Kryptonite and he is helpless as a baby. This is arguably Batman's biggest advantage and it should not be underestimated. Batman has the knowledge and means to take full advantage of this. A Kryptonite ray? Synthesized Kryptonite that acts in a different way ala Tower of Babel (demonstrated to be very effective)? Blasting him with red sunlight is also a possibility.
  4. As fast/strong as Superman is, Batman could easily manipulate him into a trap. That was probably the most important aspect of the battle in Hush. Not that Batman held of Superman, but that Batman controlled every aspect of the battle. With more prep, even without Superman holding back, I don't see why batman couldn't manipulate Superman into somewhere bathed with red sunlight or kryptonite.
  5. Lead. Superman can't see through Lead. That gives Batman a huge advantage in being able to hide from Superman. I wouldn't be surprised if there were already lead safe houses or tunnels or something in place that Batman could utilize if it became necessary to do so.
  6. Batman is a master of disguise. This also should not be overlooked. Batman would be able to hide from Superman as necessary or impersonate people as necessary to get close to Clark for whatever reason was necessary.
  7. Nanotechnology. We've seen in recent issues of Superman that he is not able to withstand nanobots entering his system and affecting him.
  8. Batman is one of the worlds top martial artists. Top 3 I believe, after Cain and Shiva. If Superman is weakened to the point that Batman and Superman are trading blows, Batman is going to have the upper hand, without a doubt. Superman can throw punches but relies on his powers. When it comes to hand to hand combat on equal grounds, Batman has the advantage due to his dedication, training and experience.

I may have left some things out, but that is essentially why I think Batman vs Superman is more of a level playing ground than Superman fans are comfortable admitting.

Superman blood lusted is not at all a level playing field. Short of that, I think it a very believable story can be done with Batman beating Superman, without PIS or CIS.

Batman vs say, Black Adam or Captain Marvel is far less of a level playing field, because those characters being magic based do not have the same vulnerabilities that Superman has.

Comments?

Superman would destroy Batman.

First off this all depends on which era of Superman and Batman you are talking about.

1. Batman is more of a tactician but Superman can and has been shown to be just as cunning when he is facing off against Batman.

2. Superman can just as easily play off of Batmans psychology downfalls like the death of his parents and after decades of fighting crime Gotham has only gotten worse. He could play off Batman's sadness and anger making him lose his concentration.

3. While Superman's weaknesses are rather damaging it depends on what era you are talking about (does superman get his speed and strength from the sun or from his evolved physiology) and Batman would first have to get the Kryptonite around Superman. A gun would work but Batman's movements are to slow to tag Superman and Superman can still destroy the gun from a distance by simply throwing something back or hitting it with his heat vision. Also Batman would never use magic (not saying he would't get someone else to use magic but then defeats the one on one)

4.Superman is smart enough to look for lead lined items and buildings and nothing is strong enough to hold Superman in one place so is Superman keeps moving (faster than Batman can even see) there is no way of trapping him unless Batman surrounds himself with Kryptonite and even then Superman could still attack him from a far.

5.Superman knows if there is lead it is most likely a trap. Even if he can't see thru it he can still melt the lead and then see what's behind or within it. Also Superman can hear heart beats. He doesn't have to see Batman to know where he is at bc each person has their own unique heart beat rhythm.

6. Again Superman can see through masks and disguises so he could see Batman's face and if someone is wearing a mask that is lead lined that would obviously be Batman and even still Superman could find him from his heart beat.

7. Superman has been shown to eventually over come this. While it is still a threat it depends on how quickly Superman notices the tech, if detected early enough he can simply dive to the bottom of the ocean (freeze it), dive in to a volcano (overheat it), burn it out with his heat vision (overheat it). This does seem like the most possible way of winning to me though although Superman can see at a subatomic level so he should be able to notice the nano tech.

8. Looking at the New Krypton arc shows Superman has learned from Batman (as well as Wonder woman in other stories) and knows different types of martial arts as well as alien types of fighting as well. Also it still depends on if Superman gets his strength and speed from the sun or from his evolved physiology.

@MuyJingo said:

  • I really hate the whole Kryptonian super intelligence thing. It's such a recent development. I guess it makes sense in a way but...gah. In any event, even if/with Supes having essentially a far greater IQ, he still doesn't know how to be tactical/strategic. He can't even solve crimes which is why he has to call on/rely Batman for that stuff.

This is nothing new... It has been around since the silver age Superman, since then it has come and gone but it is definitely nothing new. Although some have put down human intelligence. While most humans are shown to be a level 3 i believe Batman is a level 6 and Lex is a level 7 or above (close to or on par with Brainiac). I thought Kryptonians were a level 5 or 7. I have never heard of any being a level 10. Also he solves crimes alot at one point they use his to solve crimes bc of his faster brain processing, his microscopic vision and other high senses.

@MuyJingo said:

If he had a big enough chunk of K on him, then could Superman even get close?

Superman doesnt have to get close, he can simple throw something from miles away (before Batman can even see him) or shoot him from a far with his heat vision and blow the kryptonite up.

Posted by sethysquare

@DEGRAAF said:

@MuyJingo said:

  • I really hate the whole Kryptonian super intelligence thing. It's such a recent development. I guess it makes sense in a way but...gah. In any event, even if/with Supes having essentially a far greater IQ, he still doesn't know how to be tactical/strategic. He can't even solve crimes which is why he has to call on/rely Batman for that stuff.

This is nothing new... It has been around since the silver age Superman, since then it has come and gone but it is definitely nothing new. Although some have put down human intelligence. While most humans are shown to be a level 3 i believe Batman is a level 6 and Lex is a level 7 or above (close to or on par with Brainiac). I thought Kryptonians were a level 5 or 7. I have never heard of any being a level 10. Also he solves crimes alot at one point they use his to solve crimes bc of his faster brain processing, his microscopic vision and other high senses.

Was established in Action. Humans are all level 3. I don't think a Level 3 human can up their intelligence by twice, but Kryptonians are said to be level 10.

Brainiac said that in Action, I could be wrong, but thats what I remember.

Posted by ReVamp

The only way he wins is using Kryptonite and a lot of planning.

Edited by RedOwl_1

@MuyJingo: I LOVE Batman and defend my believing strongly...... but I already admitted I lost, thanks to last SvsB post I believe Superman win, the fact he is that there's a problemita por aqui

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

And this is why Batman is a more famous character at this point.

Superman is to damn powerfull, people cant care for Superman becuase lets face it, Batman is way more easy to belive in that Superman who at the end is more powerfull that the DBZ guys, also that the reason why Dargon Ball became more popular that Superman in many parts of the world, here in Mexico, kids still like DB even after the 17 years since the first episode air, but no kid care for Superman.

At this point, Superman is less popular that not only Batman, but other comic book characters.

DC needs to make him weaker, i mean Superman is more powerfull that all the DBZ characters, why i should care about him?.

If Superman had a real weak point, people would care for Superman.

Kinda the point here,

Remember who writes comics and reads them? Common people (with common I'm talking about no powers :P)

and What's Superman? A Kryptonian

Other words? An Alien

And so we're going to believe and admit than in comics that ourselves (humans) make, a overpowered (it's truth and we know it) alien win?

NO That's where started the believe that Batman can defeat Superman..... Believe on that is merely human, like fear or hope, almost natural, think that we humans can do everything if we try, like fly, go undersea, uderground, even to the space and admit it, we all believe or believed that Bats can beat Supes at some point of our lives.

Batman is far more realistic (at least someone rich could be he in this world) than Superman and so we stick to what's realistic for us, so Batman winning in front of someone so f*cking overpowered as Superman looks like a victory of human race, that a human on his best at every sense and point (fiscal and mental) can beat the unbeatable....

But that's just our heart, our human feelings, that thing that tell us that we can do everything, the dimple fact of being a human, that huge will power of the human race...... of course at the very end all are false hopes because Bats really can't beat Supes, as I said, is an overpowered being so........ better use your hopes for other stuff I dunno put Batman against.....Iron Man, Spider Man whoever not SO OVERPOWERED (but man we love Supes overpowered, I mean is part of he, like having a huge moral sense, you can't quit that without quitting that taste of awesomeness, of being an icon and pure dream for a human to arrive there *who doesn't will like to have as many power as him eh?*)

Posted by RedOwl_1

@ReVamp said:

The only way he wins is using Kryptonite and a lot of planning.

Yeah but we're kinda tired of that, I mean it so used that It's part of Sh*t Superman Says

PS: It's on 0:35

Posted by Lvenger

@RedOwl_1: I love It's some random guys stuff. His video's are the best.

@CitizenBane: Looking forward to seeing your response Bane. Give him hell as Gambit said it.

Posted by tensor

Ok i take it from the garbage i have read, you have not enough knowledge on superman.

Edited by DEGRAAF

@MuyJingo said:

@sethysquare said:

Actually Super intelligence isnt a new developement. Superman has in some form or another always been shown to be from a superior being. Kryptonians have been shown to be a highly advanced city with people of high intelligence, which is why they have capacity to build rockets that can travel through galaxies. However writers or people's perception of supes has always been he is a boy scout all brawns no brains. Which is untrue. Preflashpoint Superman is even more powerful physically, plus he has all the techs he confiscated. Only advantage batman has is that he is more accesible to K.

@MuyJingo:

There is a very big difference between a species being more advanced because they have been around longer and had more time to learn things, and each member of that species being super intelligent.

Clark being ridiculously intelligent is a fairly recent development. Having him read entire textbooks in a few hours, comprehend and memorize everything is not something Superman from 10 years ago would do, AFAIK.

Superman had Superhuman Genius intellect since the silver age of comics

@RedOwl_1 said:

NO That's where started the believe that Batman can defeat Superman..... Believe on that is merely human, like fear or hope, almost natural, think that we humans can do everything if we try, like fly, go undersea, uderground, even to the space and admit it, we all believe or believed that Bats can beat Supes at some point of our lives.

Batman is far more realistic (at least someone rich could be he in this world) than Superman and so we stick to what's realistic for us, so Batman winning in front of someone so f*cking overpowered as Superman looks like a victory of human race, that a human on his best at every sense and point (fiscal and mental) can beat the unbeatable....

I have never in my life thought Batman could beat Superman as well as i also dont think Batman is any more believable then Superman

@sethysquare said:

Was established in Action. Humans are all level 3. I don't think a Level 3 human can up their intelligence by twice, but Kryptonians are said to be level 10.

Brainiac said that in Action, I could be wrong, but thats what I remember.

is this Post Flashpoint that they said that? Just curious bc i know that Lex was considered above level 7 intellect and Batman was on par or close behind before Flashpoint

Posted by Lvenger

@tensor: It seems that way. A shame really. I thought Bane's blog would put any more threads like this out of business.

Posted by Gambit1024

@joshmightbe: I love how people think just because Batman happens to be human, he's so much more relatable.

Sorry, but I can sympathize with an immigrant much more than I can sympathize with a person who's parents were killed in front of them. Whether they're human or not is irrelevant. It's who they are what they represent that matters. So what if Superman's powerful? Batman himself said that his morals made him more human than anyone, which is absolutely right.

Posted by Saren

@tensor said:

Ok i take it from the garbage i have read, you have not enough knowledge on superman.

Understatement of the century.

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