Munsu's forum posts

#1 Posted by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh, I hate this. They took one of the worst aspects of the BTAS and made it into some awful soap opera. So the reason Dick and Babs aren't together is because Bruce got Babs pregnant while Dick was away. Great. Thank God Higgins no longer writes the main Dick Grayson character in Grayson.

#2 Edited by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz: The ages we know for certain are:

Dick was 21 at the start of the New 52 when he went back to being Nightwing.

Babs was 21 at the start of the New 52 as well.

Huntress/Helena Wayne was also 21 at the start of the reboot. As she was 16 when she came to the main Earth, which was 5 years ago. She is the same age as Powergirl.

I would guess that Luke Fox is also probably 21. That seems to be the age they like to stick everyone at.

#3 Edited by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

Also I think the Grayson book is a result of DC just now knowing what to do with the character in the reboot. Johns really didn't seem to have any plan when deciding to do what he did with him in Forever Evil. The constant changes in direction are probably a result of that. All of his former roles have been taken by Tim and Jason, so his character is kind of lost without his history. They can make him Nightwing and stick him in some city where he fights crime like Batman again, but then because the character doesn't have anything else the stories start to feel like like it is him being Batman-lite fighting less interesting villain with less strong creative teams. Not exactly exciting, but I really don't know what they could do with him to make the character like he was to be honest.

Also what I kind of don't get is that if Dick is pretending to be dead to just Babs and Alfred (all the JL should know he is alive given what happened in FE) doesn't the fact that Spyral know he is Dick Grayson and that Dick knows they know kind of make him pretending to be dead pointless? I mean the guy in the Spyral mask called him by his name. Though maybe they are just keeping him playing dead as an excuse to not involve him in Eternal.

#4 Posted by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@timelord: Nightwing has been the whipping boy of the new 52.

I think that is probably one of, if not the only thing, everyone about the New 52 can agree on. It's been painful to be a Nightwing/Dick Grayson fan. His fall from grace has been a long one. Sucks he is pretty much left out of all the big Batman 75th Anniversary stuff too.

#5 Edited by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

No you said Batman helps people because of selfish reason which isn't true.

No, I said his main motivation is to fill an obsessive need left from the death of his parents. That leads him to want to be a hero to help people, but it all stems from him needing to try and fill that void left from their death. He isn't able to move on from their death. It's a weight he can't get rid of and constantly east away at him forcing him to drive away people he loves. It's sort of his addiction. How is that not obsessive?

#6 Edited by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

This isn't called obsession, its called sacrifice, he is willing to put he's happyness behind for the sake of helping people, you said it yourself, the mission is more important to him than anything and the mission is helping others. He was given a chance to be with his parents but he rejected the offer, that's called sacrifice not obsession. Dick would've gone after Zucco to kill him, many stories show that, Bruce saved him from that, and if he wasn't a murderer then he would've been a talon. And Dick would've been in circus if he wasn't with Bruce so no he wouldn't have been a hero, and Bruce doesn't like to help people? That's the biggest bs I've heard anyone say. You are the one who doesn't understand Batman, getting over something is something different, a person who can't get over something can also help others, everyone has something feel bad for, that doesn't stop them from helping others, if Bruce's parents weren't dead then he wouldn't have stopped helping others.

I like how I never said Batman doesn't like helping people, but apparently you think I did. Only that it isn't his main motivating factor. Okay, I'll try and explain it one more time so you can try and understand it and then I am finished.

Fighting crime is an obsession for Bruce. Make a thread and ask and I am sure most posters will agree that it is. It goes beyond just wanting to help people for him. He is the guy that secretly plans the downfall of his close friends and teammates "just in case". This isn't something Superman does or "normal" heroes do. He isn't some perfect noble hero but an obsessed, neurotic vigilante that will go to whatever lengths to make sure his Justice is carried out. Bruce can never stop being Batman. In Synder's story set 200 years in the future Bruce clones himself over and over again to continue to be Batman forever because he can't let go of being a hero. If Clark lost his powers I think he would be fine with being "normal" and just being a journalist, but Bruce couldn't just be Bruce Wayne. Like in the DCAU when he couldn't be Batman anymore he basically died inside and shut himself in his mansion for years.

The reason I said that Dick could have been a hero regardless if his parents died is that isn't the reason why he continues to be a hero. It doesn't matter to him if they died or not. If another opportunity to be a hero came up for him and his parents were still alive he would have been the same type of hero he would have been if they had died. Them dying is what lead him to Bruce and he helped him hone his abilities and train him. Like in the AU Flashpoint story he was still at the circus, but he became the new Doctor Fate when he needed to be and became a hero that way without Bruce. When Bruce's parents died he forever changed (some say when that happened Bruce Wayne actually died and Batman was born), but with Dick he is still the same as before his parents died. The New 52 Talon stuff is a newly added story and Dick would have become a Talon against his will once the toxins in his tooth activated. So that isn't really part of his personality or the type of person or hero he is and became.

#7 Posted by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

That isn't a picture of Gotham. xD

#8 Edited by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@munsu said:

You can enjoy serving the people not at the job, he does feel good when he's serving people, but he is always serious on the job. And this isn't an obsession for him, he said it himself and in some AU stories he does retire from crime fighting when there is no crime or passes down the mantle but the truth is there will always be crime. The only villain he ever created was Joker. Ra's, Freeze, Two-Face, Court of Owls, Black Glove etc. are not his creation and he's nothing like the villains he fights, and if he was crazy then the JL wouldn't have been working with him. At his core Batman is motivated by just one thing, that no one goes through what he did when his parents died, there's nothing selfish about that. You think Clark would've been Superman if he didn't have any powers? Dick would've been Nightwing if his parents were not dead? Without Bruce Dick probably would've been a murderer or Talon. Bruce doesn't do this to fill a void and he does want to help people, he works even when he's not Batman, he's trying to make Gotham a better place.

How is it not an obsession for him? Have you read Batman before? Pretty much all Batman stories end with Bruce alone still fighting crime after he has alienated and pushed everyone away he cares about. Since "the mission" is more important to him than anything and anyone. He isn't able to separate himself from it as it is what keeps him going. He isn't this noble Superman or Captain America type of hero. He isn't perfect and is a very messed up individual. I can't believe someone reads Batman and doesn't see how flawed he is even though he is a great hero as well. It's what makes him interesting.

And no way Dick would have been a murder. He is too well rounded a person since before Bruce ever took him in, but I don't think you quite understand something about characters like Dick. Yes, I think Dick could have still been a hero even if his parents were not dead. He enjoys helping people and is able to move on from his parents death unlike Bruce. So it isn't a motivating factor for him helping people as a hero. That is the difference between the two that I've been trying to get across for a while to you.

#9 Posted by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

You think Bruce would be more interested in what Lex had to sad as the CSA just "killed" Dick who was someone Bruce took in and cared for. Surprised Lex didn't call him out on it.

#10 Posted by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

I don't see how making sure no one goes through from what he did is selfish, if anything he's one of the most selfless and devoted heroes there is, he puts others priorities above his own, he barely lives a normal life because of that. Gotham was miserable long before Bruce became Batman, its actually one of the main reasons he became Batman. And who enjoys fighting mad clowns and psychotic murderers? Who enjoys watching murders, rapes? Dick is thrill-seeker, he enjoys facing bad guys more than anyone, Bruce on the other hand does it because he wants to help people, the job he does isn't supposed to be fun, when you are investigating a murder of someone you are not supposed to be happy, you are not supposed to enjoy it.

You can enjoy being a hero just like someone enjoys being a cop, a doctor or a fireman. They are tough jobs but you preform a selfless service to other people and feel inspired by it. I think the idea you can't enjoy being a hero is insane. Bruce doesn't enjoy it because it is an obsession for him. There is no arguing this in my opinion. It goes beyond just enjoying what he does and wanting to help people. There is a reason they say that all of Batman's rogues are a part of Bruce. I think he sort of in a way creates them or is just as crazy as they are but is on the side of justice.

I just think at his core Bruce is motivated by a selfish desire to fill a void left inside him from when his parents died and no amount of crime fighting will be enough to cure him of that and it becomes an obsession for him. I am not saying he isn't a great hero and sacrifices himself for others to try and help them, but I think the difference between him and Dick, or even Clark, is that Bruce does what he does because he has to as it is what keeps him going since his parents died and they do it because they want to help people as their main motivating factor.