mrmisanthrope's forum posts

#1 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

To the main argument though, it's a tough call. Everyone points to the classic battle for leadership of the X-Men, which happened under the circumstances OP required. There are a couple mitigating factors there though.

Storm didn't have her powers at all, and the way she was able to defeat Cyclops was by sneaking up on him and taking off his visor. She knew he would not risk hurting someone with a stray optic blast. Of course since then, he's learned to fight with his eyes closed, so that wouldn't be an issue for him.

The other issue is the retcon they provided to explain how that could happen. Madelyne Pryor wanted Cyclops to retire from the X-Men, so she psychically manipulated him to give up on the fight. He didn't even know she had psychic powers at that point, and trusted her completely, so she made him throw the fight so she could get him off the team and all to herself. The fight can't be used as evidence for these reasons.

Now, while Cyclops has become a brilliant tactician, the Danger Room is where he's most at home (well, it was, let's not forget it's a sentient female robot these days) and currently [i]relaxes[/i] by fighting dinosaurs in the Savage Land for fun, Storm is no slouch either.

Long before her past was retconned to include Wakanda, she was sufficiently skilled in hand to hand combat to defeat Callisto as well as Marrow, both of whom have powers which would specifically enhance their standing in a hand to hand fight. She had a fairly lengthy period where she was depowered and held her own splendidly against various powers opponents. I'd honestly say they're about equal where hand to hand combat is concerned.

I'm going to assume neither of them is in control of the Danger Room. The only thing I see giving either of them an advantage is the day of prep time. Cyclops is a character to whom prep time is very, very valuable. Like Batman, The Punisher and Doctor Doom, if he's had time to prepare for the fight, he's going to win it. And he's sufficiently paranoid that he's already started preparing for the fight even if he thinks it's unlikely. He's probably already planned out a scenario specifically for defeating Storm in hand to hand combat. 24 hours to prepare would allow him to refresh and further specialize it.

#2 Edited by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
They could and they did retcon cyclops as the inferior fighter. Back in those days cyclops was a better fighter then wolverine, because wolverine wasn't a skilled fighter.... Thats not the case anymore. We know this. We can go feat for feat with wolverine and cyclops skill showings and wolverines showings are dozens of times better. Wolverine has done things like get the better of cap, curbstomp shang chi, defeat daken, defeat deadpool, defeated iron fist in a spar, and some other stuff cyclops has never come close to matching. Cyclops isn't a bad fighter but he is not comparable to wolverine in hand to hand. He would need his powers to actually defeat wolverine.

Eh, actually Cyclops has won every fight he's had with Wolverine, to this day. Pretty much the only exception is the 90's animated X-Men where in the first episode Wolverine sucker-punches him in the gut.

Wolverine's a terrible example though, his entire purpose in the Marvel universe is to lose fights. Everyone has kicked Wolverine's ass. I used to have this huge folder just of scans of people beating up Logan. Everyone's done it. Most commonly he gets beaten up by Cyclops, The Punisher and Spider-Man (each has taken him down at least half a dozen times) but he's also been utterly destroyed or humiliated by Gambit, Sabertooth, Cyber, Molly Hayes, Venom, Sasquatch, Puck, Deadpool, Hulk, Kitty Pryde, Henry Pym, Beast, Magneto, Marrow, Aunt May, a random caribou, Daredevil, Namor, Captain America, Daken, and Wonder Man just off the top of my head. Damn near everyone in the Marvel universe has beaten up Wolverine at some point. He's been used countless times as a plot device to show another character is tough.

Hell, Taskmaster even made a point that he will not imitate Logan's fighting style, because as a result of his healing factor and adamantium, he makes no attempt to avoid injuries, and his movements are sluggish.He exists to take ungodly amounts of punishment, and then come back from it, and -if it's his book- later get the upper-hand on his opponent because of their hubris or something. But if he's not the star of the book, he heals up just fine, but simply stays the loser of the fight.

#3 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

@VeganDiet:

You're way, way off. Cable showed Cyclops exactly what would happen if he didn't take this course. He showed him a future where the world is destroyed because the Avengers were allowed to do as they wished with Hope. He explained to him that he would have to go to war with the Avengers to see the good future come to pass.

He couldn't restore mutant kind with one fifth of the Phoenix Force, he needed the whole thing. In the meantime he flew around trying to fix every problem he could and give mutants a good image, but the other four unfortunately were weak. The Phoenix Force amplified their emotions, and three of them were former villains. Colossus was under Cyttorak's influence. By the time Cyclops finally got the whole thing, all four of the other chunks had already become corrupted.

Immediately before that, Emma informed him she was having an affair with Namor, and immediately following getting the four corrupted chunks, everyone on Earth he'd ever considered a friend or ally attacked him all at once.

Cyclops intended the force to go straight to Hope, the Avengers interfered. Reed Richards has a panel where Cap and Stark are discussing this, and he basically says right to Tony's face "You know this is all your fault, right?"

If events didn't proceed exactly as they did, not only would mutants not have gotten their power back, but the Earth would have been scorched. Cyclops was right. Cyclops saved mutantkind. He wasn't alone, and he had it on good authority, but at the end of the day you have to accept that simple, obvious truth. Cyclops was right.

#4 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

Storm is an X-Men character. I know she's an Avenger now, but the reason I say that is Fox still has the rights to all the X-Men characters. Anything X-Men, Spider-Man or Fantastic Four related can't be used in Marvel Studios films yet. Wanna see Storm in an Avengers movie? Then tell everyone not to go to the next X-Men: First Class film, so the franchise will become unprofitable enough that they let the rights revert to Marvel. So far they got Daredevil back, so that's a start.

Black Panther presents a host of problems that would make him hard to like by the general audience. He doesn't have any iconic villains or stories, and his abilities aren't terribly interesting.

I've never been fond of Luke Cage being an Avenger, because I don't like Bendis's take on him. I prefer him in his Heroes for Hire days, so I'm biased here. I just do not like Luke Cage as he currently exists. He's incredibly boring and generic, his origin is terrible, and he doesn't even wear a costume.

Personally, I like Falcon. He's got a long history in the comics, and his abilities aren't useless. Being able to talk to birds sounds useless, but if handled right it could work. As for his suit, if it was explained to be a prototype he threw on by necessity then I think with a little tinkering the color scheme would be fine, but then I've always preferred red to black.

#5 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops has always been popular. Lemme pull up the wiki article quote:

"In 2006, IGN.com rated Cyclops #1 on their list of Top 25 X-Men from the past forty years. Wizard Magazine also ranked Cyclops the 106th Best Comic Book Character of All Time. In 2011, IGN ranked Cyclops 39th in the Top 100 Comic Book Heroes and readers of Comic Book Resources voted him the 9th Top Marvel Character of All Time. "

It's just Cyclops has been increasingly getting crapped on since the movies. In the first two he was relegated from leader to minor character. In the third one he was murdered off-screen.

In an effort to make him "darker" as the people who didn't like him complained about his boyscout image, they did lots of things that damaged his character. He got possessed by Apocalypse and donned a black costume. He became Basilisk in an alternate reality where his eyelids had been cut off. He took a piece of The Void into his mind. He started a relationship with Emma, and it was all downhill from there.

Then everyone in the comics was attacking Cyclops for creating a new X-Force team. Note, I said new. Cable had previously controlled X-Force, and back then it was also a team filled with teen heroes who did the X-Men's dirty work, AND it was sanctioned by Xavier. Still, Cyclops did the same thing, and suddenly this was horrible. They didn't get upset with the people on the actual team, but with Cyclops for putting it back together. They also didn't get upset with Wolverine for pretty much immediately after doing the exact same thing.

Then Schism happened, and that's when people really started calling BS. When Cyclops first joined the X-Men, he was a teenager. So were all the other team members, with Iceman being the youngest. When the next team rolled around, it was also made up of teenagers, except for Wolverine. Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, all teens, not to mention a couple members that died.

Then there was New Mutants, Generation X, the X-Terminators, New X-Men, and previous incarnations of X-Force. All teams with young mutant heroes, which no one ever had any problem with.

Then Idie kills some Hellfire Club mooks who had just taken out the entire team of X-Men, and Logan blames Scott. Nevermind that Scott didn't order her to do it, nevermind that Logan was supposed to be there but instead chose to get drunk at a bar, it was all Scott's fault. Logan had previously made no effort to the students, he'd skipped lectures and outright told them he did not care about them. Then he kills a bunch of illegitimate kids he didn't know he had, and he has a mid-life crisis.

Suddenly the entire idea of the X-Men is bad because you know, Cyclops is in charge. So Logan goes all alpha dog and starts peeing everywhere, and takes half the X-Men and leaves, then names the school after the only member of the X-Men to have killed more people than him.

Now we've got this event. It was one thing that everybody turned against Scott, it was one thing for him to end up imprisoned, but Marvel's developed a history of doing this. Remember the end of Civil War? Captain America gets put in prison, and shot? And before that he's given a speech about how he's out of touch for not using myspace? Remember the New Warriors, and how Speedball was imprisoned for the crime of surviving an explosion he didn't cause? He wasn't even the one that attacked Nitro. It would be like your friend attacking someone with a grenade, and then getting arrested for surviving the blast. So Speedball became bleedball for a while, and that was just sort of swept under the rug when people didn't go for his new dark and edgy look. The rule seems to be, in Marvel events now, the good guy goes to jail at the end.

Hulk loses it, comes back to Earth, World War Hulk. Admittedly I didn't read all of that event, but I seem to remember him going nuts and imprisoning and torturing a bunch of heroes. Daredevil went evil with Shadowland. Wolverine has gone evil so many times now they have specific protocols for dealing with him. Archangel became Apocalypse, and in the end had all his memory erased and became a new person. Iron Man's excuse for all the messed up stuff he did during Civil War was having his mind rebooted.I feel like I could keep going forever. Quicksilver went nuts and stole the Terrigan Mists, and was powering up depowered mutants with glowing red eyes. Scarlet Witch wished for no more mutants resulting in the near death of her entire species. Justice went to prison for killing his father in self defense.

My point is, in all of these cases these crimes were forgiven, forgotten and excused within months. The only other hero to have gotten this kind of treatment really was Pym for slapping Wasp and he's mostly been forgiven for that these days.

Cyclops meanwhile, is all but entirely innocent in this situation. Nobody thinks Jean is evil for the things she did while she was the Dark Phoenix, but Cyclops is when the same thing happens to him? He was the only member of the Phoenix Five not to be corrupted until the very end, and to begin with the only reason he became the hose was because of Iron Man's meddling. It's one thing for him to accept responsibility for the others, that's what a hero does, but these pages, the way the other characters are talking about him.

Captain America throwing a tantrum over Scott declaring this a win, Havok calling him an insane egotist and a disgrace and insulting him, Wolverine asking him if he's killed anyone, and taking time during Professor Xavier's euology to tell everyone how very much he wants to kill Cyclops. It's garbage. Complete and total garbage.

#6 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

As Cap got there, Emma told Cyclops that Cap would not listen no matter what he said, and had already made his mind and wanted to take Hope.

Cable also told Cyclops that war was unavoidable, that it was the only way.

#7 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery said:

How did Cyclops and the X-Men win ideologically?

They had no evidence of the Phoenix's motivations but were willing to risk an entire planet on a selfish whim.

Even if they knew for certain what the Phoenix would do, they still killed countless civilians and their founder to pursue that goal.

Did Charles Xavier approve of what happened?

Would Jean Gray have?

Their goal was for the Phoenix to enter Hope, and mutantkind to be restored. That was accomplished. They had mountains of evidence of what the Phoenix would do. The writers acted like the Phoenix has only ever been a force of destruction, but tons of characters have had and controlled it for years. Rachel Summers being the most notable example, but Jean controlled it for many storylines without going dark.

They knew exactly what was going to happen because someone from THE FUTURE came and showed them.

Cyclops didn't kill any civilians. To the contrary, he was trying to fix every problem on the planet. It was the other four that became corrupted, and that's because they were three former villains, and a hero under the influence of Cytorrak. It's so much BS that Namor flooded Wakanda, and Wolverine's response is to snikt out his claws and co "SCOTT SUMMERS!" He wasn't even there.

Scott's chunk of the Phoenix Force remained uncorrupted until he got 4/5ths of a corrupted Phoenix Force, and it overwhelmed him, while he was simultaneously attacked and betrayed by EVERYONE.

#8 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

Absolutely not. Terrible idea. Absolutely terrible.

#9 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

@Botiste said:

@soir8: Clearly my friend you do not know the history of the Phoenix. Go back and read the Claremont's books (who created the the Phoenix Force of Marvel). Go back and read the intro of the series where the Phoenix destroys whole planets getting to earth. The Phoenix is an all consuming power of destruction. Every time you defeat it, it raises again, ask Iron Fist. If this event never ran its course Hope's eyes would've never been opened to this truth which cause her to say "No more Phoenix". Why not? She was born for this right? She can control it right? Wrong. That's not how it works. An all consuming power consumes all. I'm willing to bet that the worlds that the Phoenix destroyed getting to earth had heroes on them that would make there way to earth for vengeance. I'm not saying cap was right!! Things could have been handled differently. Every time the Phoenix made its way anywhere death and destruction followed, but its ok though because the death of million and rebirth of thousands balances itself way out, right? Next time Galatucus pose's as the next messiah of rebirth maybe we should stand down and listen to what guy has to say, regardless of the 1,000 world's he destroyed. There are no winners here.

Ironically, you clearly don't know the history of the Phoenix. Rachel Summers controlled the whole thing. For YEARS. She fought Galactus at one point. It didn't corrupt her, she didn't use it for evil, it was the ENTIRE Phoenix Force.

#10 Posted by mrmisanthrope (103 posts) - - Show Bio

@sparty-dbq said:

The fact that the Phoenix Force actually did begin restoring mutants only makes Cyclops look like even more of an asshole than he already was. WHICH I DIDN'T THINK WAS POSSIBLE!:

"Hey, the Phoenix is here to help mutants. All we have to do is let it inhabit Hope! Oh, I guess I have it now. Hmmmmmm. I suppose I could use it to do exactly what I just said it would orrrrrrrrrrr, I could use it to threaten the UN, totally mess up the delicate balance of the ecosystem, wrongfully imprison anyone who disagrees with my viewpoints, scare the ever-loving s*** out of my friends and family, and kill my mentor. Basically become the exact thing the Avengers tried to warn us about. Oh, and when it all goes South on me, and someone uses the Phoenix to actually do something good, I can act all high and mighty like that was my idea the whole time. Hmmmmmm, think I'm going to go with option B. Because I'm Cyclops. And I'm a horrible, horrible person.

SUCK IT, BITCHES!"

It's like you didn't read any of the issues you're describing. Cyclops wanted the Phoenix Force to go to Hope, it was IRON MAN that fucked that up. Hell, Reed gave Cap and Iron Man a speech about how every bad thing in the event was their fault for being asshats and interfering.

The whole way through, Cyclops continually used his powers for good. They were split into five, they weren't the ones who could restore mutants, only Hope could. Three of the other four were former villains and the fourth was under the influence of one, and naturally they all ended up going dark, while Cyclops was still trying to revive dead species and feed starving children. You act like he's an asshole for trying to solve all the world's problems, and for that you just sound like a complete imbecile.

Then finally, when everyone betrays him, and he's stuck with the other four shards of the now very corrupted Phoenix Force, what else could have possibly happened?

Is Scarlet Witch an evil bitch for all the death and destruction she caused? Is Iron Man for cloning Thor and creating a prison in another dimension for his former friends? What about Hulk for declaring war on the Earth and imprisoning and torturing heroes? It's just more poorly written, out of character hero vs hero garbage.