MorganFreeman

Considering Maul has mastered Niman, which is an amalgam of all previous styles (which only discludes Juyo), I'd say Luke has no chance whatsoever of surprising him. But to play your game, has Luke ever fought someone as skilled in Juyo, Niman, Jar Kai and Teras Kasi as Maul? Someone who has been stated as being entirely unpredictable, and who has been able to change his entire lightsaber fight plan in a second?

Doubtful he has faced a Juyo practitioner period as of ROTJ. But my question was to see if Maul would have the edge in lightsaber form knowledge since, as I've said, my knowledge on the forms is nothing to brag about.

Honestly, Luke having a hybrid form only makes him more of a jack of all trades opposed to a specialist, which in my mind puts him at a disadvantage against someone who not only has mastered the Jack of all Trades lightsaber form, but also specializes in two more and is also a far better unarmed martial artist than Luke. By no means does number of forms hold any weight on overall skill level but this idea Luke is now the most unpredictable fighter in the world because he's dabbled in a couple of different styles is just ludicrous. Maul is far more unpredictable and variable and has actually been credited with such in plenty of his fights.

I never said Luke's studies into forms would make him unpredictable. My point was his training in the three forms he does know merged into an effective style that eventually allowed him to duel Vader as an equal, which one could imagine would allow him to duel with Maul as an equal at least. And Luke learned elements from great practioners who really refined their form. Kenobi and his Soresu, Yoda and Ataru and Vader with Djem So. So Luke's form is based on really solid teachers (not that Maul's isn't).

The funny thing about this entire paragraph is that you're trying to make a case for Luke in a purely hand-to-hand confrontation, by only listing times Maul has been hit during lightsaber fights. In fact, not even mentioning every single martial arts accolade/accomplishment I listed or even bothering to consider the times martial arts have served Maul well.

You mean right after Maul had kicked Obi-Wan on the jaw, and had deliberately looked down the catwalk to see if he had plummeted to his death because he was scared he wouldn't have the chance to kill him himself, and was thus distracted and blindsided by Qui-Gon in an already handicapped 2v1 confrontation? Yeah, it's not really as unimpressive when you actually bring up the context of the fight.

You also forgot to mention that Maul had kicked both Jedi off their feet twice each during that fight, but we'll just go ahead and ignore anything good Maul does for the sake of your argument, right?

The point of my examples were to show that martial arts superiority doesn't mean the examples couldn't fight back with some martial arts of their own even if they have few to no showings themselves. And that's what I mean Luke could do: fight back enough to avoid getting bowled over. It wasn't to lowball Maul or highball his opponents.

As for the rather flavorful parts of your post, I didn't think I would have to bring up the context since we both knew it already. I even said Kenobi practically ate Maul's feet during their TPM duel. I'm not sure why you thought I would willingly ignore any good Maul has done and act like I've slandered his abilities when I've flat out said he's the best martial artist out of everyone mentioned in that paragraph.

And now Maul, the guy who has mastered at least a dozen martial arts, one of the most deadly Sith Lords in galactic history with both his lightsaber and his body, is a "brawler".

Seriously, I've based my case off of Maul's extensive accomplishments in martial arts which frankly **** all overanything Luke has done or been credited with. You're basing yours off of the odd kick in a lightsaber duel, which doesn't even translate to a purely hand-to-hand engagement where lightsabers aren't there to remove Maul's focus.

What hand-to-hand experience does Vader have that's even scratching Maul's?

"Brawler" being synonymous with "fighter," man. Again, I outright said Maul is the best martial artist out of everyone mentioned in that paragraph. What did you think I meant? That Maul just goes in swinging his arms like a drunk and that's all he does?

For Vader's experience, how about the strikes he landed on Kenobi on Mustafar? Kicking Dooku off the platform in the duel where Dooku died? Kicking Barriss a couple of times in their duel? Spin kicking Ventress in their first encounter? He's shown examples throughout his life. And just so we're clear, no, I'm not saying Anakin is beating Maul in a martial arts fight.

Do you know what you're asking for right now? You're asking me to find an instance where Maul, in a lightsaber duel, doesn't use his lightsaber, but rather his bare hands to win. How does that even beginto make sense?

It doesn't. Because that's not what I asked. I wasn't asking if Maul had ever beaten 50 Jedi Masters to death with just his hands when they had their lightsabers. I asked if Maul's mastery on martial arts was ever the defining reason he won a battle against someone notable, like a Jedi Master. It didn't even have to be a Force User. Someone like Pre Vizsla. A notable bounty hunter. Something like that. I asked because I figured you'd know what I obviously didn't, and you did.

You're representing Luke - you tell me. I don't even remember Vader mastering a single unarmed fighting form, never mind Maul who has mastered at the very, very least, a dozen.

I would tell you if I knew. That's why I asked and have asked questions throughout this discussion because I wanted to learn about what I was asking.

And for more clarification, I don't ask these questions because I doubt you or Maul. I ask them because I want to know the details, to know not only what did/could/would happen in a scenario but also why.

So if that is all Luke has in hand-to-hand to speak of, where is the debate? He gets destroyed.

That's all that I know of. And I don't think he gets destroyed, but he does certainly lose. Maul has the better technique when it comes to martial arts but I can see Luke managing to fend Maul's strikes off.

Round 1- Team 2

Round 2 - Team 1

Round 3 - Team 1

Perhaps you could cite a couple of instances where this massive vulnerability to the Force has surfaced? Because in-combat, I can only remember one time Maul has been hit by a Force push. Once. That does not make him weak to Force attacks. Makashi is weak to blaster bolts.. yet Count Dooku deflects blaster bolts. Shii-Cho was never designed for lightsaber dueling.. yet Kit Fisto is one of the best duelists in the Jedi Order.

On paper, Juyo is weak to Force attacks. But in all of Maul's fights it has not ever surfaced or been stated or even vaguely hinted at being there at all. I'm not just going to accept that Luke could exploit something to great effect that as of right now, doesn't even exist.

When I say it's a weakness, flaw or some other synonym, I don't mean it is something like kryptonite where you bring it out and you almost assuredly secure the victory. I mean it's something that can be exploited. And more vulnerability to Force attacks against a Skywalker isn't a death sentence but it is certainly going to make the battle more challenging.

Remember when Kenobi had to fight with Ventress against Maul and Savage? Kenobi sidesteps Maul's advance and almost casually Force Pushes Maul away. Maul launches at Sidious only to be flung back, again, by a Force Push.

What would Luke's "hybrid style" bring to the table that's new for Maul?

Maul has faced all the styles individually, but has he faced a mixture such as Luke's? That's what I'm getting at: Luke's form is a mixture of Soresu, Ataru and Djem So, and I'm not sure if Maul has ever fought one individual capable of mixing them all together aside from Sidious (who mastered all 7 forms, if memory serves, and would likely be able to mix forms on a dime.).

I fail to see how Maul is at best trying to "contest" Luke in skill here. Luke doesn't have some cutting-edge unpredictable style that Maul has no idea how to fight against. He uses Djem So IIRC. Juyo and Niman themselves are both based around being as unpredictable as possible and Maul, during his fight with Qui-Gon Jinn, was able to completely change his fighting plan on a whim, and started using all new movements and combinations, when it suited him. Now add in the fact he knows far more martial arts than Luke, has a better track record of using those martial arts, and is able to constantly chain them into his lightsaber dueling in a way Luke has never encountered before? Yeah, I don't see how Maul is the one in trouble here.

To be clear, I believe that if it were a pure martial arts comparison, Maul wins. But we see Maul get struck by Jedi who have far less martial arts mastery, so I wouln't say it's a stomp. Jinn strikes him off the bridge in Episode 1. Kenobi lands some kicks when he teams with Ventress in TCW. Ventress herself even manages to land a good flip kick in that fight. And believe it or not, Kenobi is the first to land a kick in his fight against Maul in their fight on Florrum. Even more impressively, when it's both Savage and Maul against Kenobi on Florrum, the first one to land a kick is Kenobi on Maul. I'm not even going to entertain the kick Kenobi got in during Episode I, however. Almost as silly as the dreadful ending to the fight. Not to mention Kenobi's strategy up to that point was to beat up Maul's feet with his teeth.

Maul is absolutely the better brawler compared to those three and Luke but I don't think he is going to walk over Luke in hand-to-hand. Luke got a kick in during his battle with Vader so he's not helpless with hand-to-hand against notable Sith Lords with hand-to-hand experience. But has Maul's mastery at hand-to-hand ever secured him a victory against a notable opponent such as a Jedi Master with impressive showings? I know the strike with the saberstaff to Jinn is an example of the weapon but I mean Maul's actual hands, feet, elbows, etc.

And a minor point that I even hesitate to mention is that Luke, again, has a style similar to Vader's. Would that include Vader's martial arts?

Comparing forms is tougher for me because, and don't laugh, most of my knowledge of the forms comes from the KOTOR games. The only example of form vs form on paper that I know of is Makashi typically doing poorly against Djem So. I think Makashi is supposed to beat Shii Cho but don't quote me on that. But being able to duel evenly with ROTJ Vader makes me believe Luke could hold his own in a saber fight with Maul, at least when it comes to Maul's more powerful strikes. As for combat speed, I'm not sure how Vader compares to TCW Maul. I'd say it's fairly close but I can see Maul being a bit faster.

Until I hear some more about Luke's supposed competency in martial arts I'm inclined to believe he is helpless there. Maul has killed a wampa with his bare hands, kicked into someone's torso, broken someones spine with a strike, thrown neck-shattering and skull fracturing blows to a Wampa, killed a guy by taking out his juggular with a horned-headbutt, thrown a Mandalorian in armor into a fireplace with one hand, kicked durasteel droids around for fun, kicked one with enough strength to send it flying up to the ceiling, and even broken through ones durasteel armor. He has mastered at least a dozens martial arts, some being forbidden and exotic which means Luke likely hasn't encountered some/any of them. He's just as deadly with his body as he is with it lightsaber. Luke doesn't have any credentials to match this or even imply he could keep up with Maul in a purely hand-to-hand engagement, much less counter any of this during a lightsaber duel.

Luke can certainly keep pace with Maul as far as movement goes. Technique is where he falls behind. As for Luke's personal hand-to-hand experience, I don't have much outside of what we see in ROTJ against Vader and Jabba's Palace. I know he fought Guri hand-to-hand due to someone mentioning it on this site in some other thread but I know far too little about her to do much more than mention it.

@i_like_swords: @morganfreeman: The site loading is now fine. But last night the pages kept dying.