I don't know why I should ignore over the top feats of a character.@Mendis said:
@CitizenBane said:It's actually not about the armor, but about the force fields, which are amazing. And Sue Storm is a special case, thanks to her power set and the ability to do whatever she wants with her own force fields. And it still doesn't change the fact that Doom faced the Surfer multiple times and mostly had the upper hand. He withstood the IG and he withstood Galactus' attack. And damn was Thanos salty at that point, because right before Doom was trying to steal the IG, while Thanos was still wearing it. Doom is a bad mofo.@Mendis said:
He broke through Dooms force field at least twice and ripped his armor apart IIRC and not even Silver Surfer was able to do that. Dooms force fields and his armor protect him from a blast from the Infinity Gauntlet and from being thrown away by Galactus himself.Christ, are you serious with this?Sue Storm has got past Doom's force-fields and wrecked his armor at least twice that I can think of. Maybe more if I went through my collection. The Hulk has dented Doom's armor with a headbutt. The Marquis of Death snapped his fingers and destroyed Doom's armor and his entire country while he was at it.
So you actually were serious with this?
Mendis's forum posts
It's actually not about the armor, but about the force fields, which are amazing.@Mendis said:
He broke through Dooms force field at least twice and ripped his armor apart IIRC and not even Silver Surfer was able to do that. Dooms force fields and his armor protect him from a blast from the Infinity Gauntlet and from being thrown away by Galactus himself.Christ, are you serious with this?Sue Storm has got past Doom's force-fields and wrecked his armor at least twice that I can think of. Maybe more if I went through my collection. The Hulk has dented Doom's armor with a headbutt. The Marquis of Death snapped his fingers and destroyed Doom's armor and his entire country while he was at it.
And Sue Storm is a special case, thanks to her power set and the ability to do whatever she wants with her own force fields.
And it still doesn't change the fact that Doom faced the Surfer multiple times and mostly had the upper hand. He withstood the IG and he withstood Galactus' attack. And damn was Thanos salty at that point, because right before Doom was trying to steal the IG, while Thanos was still wearing it. Doom is a bad mofo.
Then don't waste your time with me.@Mendis: Look, I don't want to waste time with you because you clearly don't understand which version of Sentry the OP is using.
And I understand very well which version of the Sentry the OP wants to use. A mentally stable Sentry and not the opposite of an insane Sentry (which would indeed by Sentry, who Voids out). A mentally stable Sentry would be the closest thing you got in his first and second volume, where he was pretty much the most powerful guy on the battlefield. Thor didn't stop the Void and Dr. Strange didn't stop the Void. It was the Sentry who stopped him, while the Void was breaking the bones in Hulks body without even trying and so on.
Now you can start assuming that the only reason for that was the struggle between Sentry and Void, even though we clearly see him beating the living crap out of the Void in the end of the second issue and showing that he is more powerful, if he somewhat is in control. And these are not assumptions, these are real moments that happened in the comics. It was a physical fight between them and not a mental struggle.
Your "sane" Sentry would be the Sentry who can't lift the helicarrier, even though he stalemated WW Hulk.
Your "sane" Sentry would be the Sentry who got overloaded with fire by the Human Torch, even though he was flying in front of the sun multiple times and was perfectly fine with it.
Your "sane" Sentry would be the Sentry who gets gtfo'ed by a bunch of kids using a magic spell, even though the Sentry punched Dr. Strage in the face, who admitted that the Sentry is too powerful for certain types of magic.
Don't confuse bad moments in the history of a comic book character with simply bad writing, which happens every other day.
Sentry has enough good feats to back up his powerlevels, if he uses his power properly. He broke through Dooms force field at least twice and ripped his armor apart IIRC and not even Silver Surfer was able to do that. Dooms force fields and his armor protect him from a blast from the Infinity Gauntlet and from being thrown away by Galactus himself.
He faced Photon and destroyed planets while holding back.
He easily overloaded the Absorbing Man, who was offering Thor and Hulk good fights more than once.
He stalemated a guy, who easily defeated planet-busters, without even trying it.
And so on.
@SlimJ87D said:
Facing Nul-Hulk and nearly getting killed, while only managing to BFR Hulk is not really a great fight in my eyes. Thor did not well against Nul-Hulk and I personally don't consider Nul-Hulk being that much stronger than WW Hulk.Lastly, you CLEARLY said that Thor never fought any Hulk as strong as the WWH. I don't care if he only stalemated hulk there, the point was that you were wrong when you said Thor never fought a Hulk at or above WWH levels. And it's very clear that he is way above WWH, not even by a little because Red She Hulk who had fought him a story arc earlier fair off a lot better against WWH than she did against Nul. That is clear. I was expecting more of "oh, my mistake. I forgot he fought Nul who was stronger than WWH." But since you can't even do that, I can already see a very egotistic debate coming from you where you probably won't ever own up to anything.
Red She-Hulk facing WW Hulk is something different than Red She-Hulk facing Nul-Hulk. The one is her ex-husband, while the other one is a near-mindless creature who does not care.
If we're looking at the non-canon comics as well, then we have the last comic Sentry ever appeared in which would be Marvel What If? #200, if I remember correctly where Sentry kills Thor without even trying it.@Mendis: I see your arguments but the biggest problem is Sentry doesn't have high end feats, had Sentry actually beaten the collective and had the collective have had any other feats apart from easily handling Binary that would be a different argument altogether. World War Feat is iffy, since Sentry actually lost, Bruce Banner is the one who landed that last blow and World War Hulk hasnt done anything to put him a lot above Thor anyways, if you even look at the non-cannon What If Issue World War Hulk sort of stalemated Thor. The fight with Photon and planet busting incident i have not seen, and its apparent that you know more of then character than i do, but could you give me the issue no or scan where this took place because i had no clue sentry actually had a planet busting feats.
In a different What If? which should be Secret Invasion they fight, Sentry has clearly the upper hand, until Thor attacks him from behind and breaks his neck. Any besides that many characters lost to WW Hulk who should not have lost these fights. The writer Pak downgraded the Sentry a lot, by forcing him to tank Hulk's punches for the sake of it. I still think that Sentry was the one who was having the upper hand in the fight and that later on he knew that he was the one who had to be stopped.
Yeah, Sentry has planet-busting feats. I'm not sure what the comic exactly was but I think it was New Thunderbolts #18, where Photon and Sentry are fighting in the microverse, basically a miniature universe, where Photon teleports Captain America away and Sentry and Photon finally start cutting lose and destroying basically everything and you see Sentry's energy expanding into the real world, out of the microverse, which is actually a damn huge feat.
And the fight against the Collective had the exact same background as the fight against the Hulk. Sentry was once again depowered for the sake of the plot, yet he was able to stalemate the Collective for quite a while, who didn't have that much feats, but killing the superhero team Alpha Flight and easily overpowering Binary isn't that bad of a feat either. But I would say that the Collective could have been more powerful than the Sentry overall, since it was also stated that the Collective was inexperienced with his powerset and that's why Sentry was able to stalemate him for a while.
@Killemall
said:About Sentry, he himself doesnt have much of a speed feat to outright show he's faster than Thor. The only significant reaction feat i remember was him being able to stop a bullet, problem being it was held by Void and back in Jenkin's run which is where the said feat occured Sentry was the Void and hence once could easily argue that he would have known when he was going to pull the trigger and what not subconsciously making the feat a little iffy.I think that's the worst speed feat someone could come up with when it comes to the Sentry. It was a speed of milisecond reaction time and especially moving speed since he was able to catch the bullet, but I think before the WW Hulk battle he also says that it would be fatal, if he would lose the control over his powers, even for a milisecond, so it seems like he can operate on such speeds on a regular basis. I'm not really that sure if that's the case for Thor, since Thor's speed feats are old. Very old. The instances, where he was smacking his hammer so fast that the human eye couldn't see it lay like 30-40 years in the past.
Now there are other times where his speed hasnt looked impressive, Hercules was able to mock him around when they met granted Sentry wasnt really pissed off nor do i see that being his best attempt to beat Hercules, Kreel had no problem tagging him, and he hasnt blitz anyone apart from the What If Issue which hardly counts.
And the human eye can't see a bullet, yet the Sentry can easily catch one.
A different speed feat for him would be catching a bullet that was fired from a super-powered Skrull (or Kree) sniper rifle and a regular sniper rifle is already many times stronger than a hand pistol. After that he moves so fast (or maybe even teleports at will) that he instantly appears behind the Punisher, who didn't have that much of a chance to get away.
A different speed for him would be flying from the outer space to the Earth and one-shotting Blue Marvel into the ground, who was not able to move out of the way at all. Covering such a distance in a moment is not bad at all. Other speed feats show him catching and transporting people at high speeds and also repairing a tower or something like that and I don't know why he shouldn't be able to use that speed during a fight. If he can build a house in superspeed, then he can take down a powerhouse in superspeed as well.
And I just checked out the scans where he fought Hercules. "Fought" Hercules to be exact and it really doesn't look like Sentry is trying at all. He is getting outskilled by Hercules though. Why shouldn't he be? Hercules has centuries of fighting experience and also outskilled Thor who had to cheat to get rid of Hercules. When Sentry finally has enough of the mocking and says that he has enough, he rams Hercules into the ground, who runs away and sinks a cruiser ship with people in it and uses it to escape while the Sentry lifts the drowning ship to pour the water back into the sea.
@Killemall
said:As i see it, Thor actually has more and better feats while Sentry (when not amped by his void powers) doesnt have as much (at least not that i have seen although the Terrax incident was pretty awesome). Although if Void powers are allowed he should be able to solo the other team, without them i see him losing to Thor at least for the purpose of the battle thread because he doesnt have much feats when we look at cannon stuffs (non cannon instance he was able to speedblitz thor, destroy earth and Asgard and roam around as an abstract swearing destruction), as much as i would like to use that to showcase what power level the writers envisaged Sentry to be, i have little to anything to show in case of his cannon appearance as a definite proof of his being powerful. If you can think of something do let me know, because despite this lengthy discussion and disagreement for the time being i am a huge Sentry fan and love pretty much ever issue of Sentry i read (sorry i know i am going to get yelled out but i liked the Bendis version better, sorry :p ).
Yeah, Thor has better feats than the Sentry. Most of the powerhouses have better feats than the Sentry and therefore that's not the way I try to look at that topic, when it comes to that, since Sentry has already been around for like 6 or 7 years (years passed by from his last issue of the first issue and the first issue where he appeared during the New Avengers run, so it's not 10 years as many think).
But take a look at the bigger picture.
Thor was brawling it out with Hulk over and over again and he has lost the fights, yet the Void was breaking all of the bones in Hulk body without even trying. And the reason for that was not only because it happened in the Negative Zone. IIRC then the Void faced the Hulk at least 2 other times, where he had an easy game and Sentry was there to protect the Hulk and fight the Void. These two guys had always the advantage over the Hulk. And it's probably not just because Sentry was able to calm Hulk down, since Hulk didn't look that calm during WW Hulk. He looked stronger than ever before and Sentry was brawling it out with him and actually having the upper hand, while Thor had problems with weaker versions of the Hulk.
Absorbing Man? Offered Thor more then once a good fight, but got defeated by the Sentry in probably under two minutes. Only because he got overloaded with power? If he can absorb Thor's power and feel fine about it, then he should be able to absorb Sentry's power as well, but it looks like Sentry has more power than Thor and if that gets unleashed: Kaboooom amigo!
Photon aka Genis-Vell? Probably a more powerful character than Thor, yet Sentry was completely fine while facing him. Some people say he gained the upper hand in that fight, since Photon teleported out of the microverse, when Sentry's energy started expanding and then teleported the Sentry into a toilette or something LOL!
The last instance was a direct confrontation between the Sentry and the gods. Sentry was Sentry when he easily, and I mean easily defeated Ares and ripped him apart. Would Thor and Hercules be able to do something like that as well? Yes probably, but Ares was always able to compete with them thanks to his superior fighting experience and skill factor, yet he was chanceless against the Sentry (even though all that is harsh to say, because Ares is a huge jobber who gets defeated by ordinary super-soldiers).
However, in the same fashion as the Sentry ripped Ares apart, you saw Thor being at Void's mercy and having all that puffy face, bleeding out of his nose and finally trying to do something against the Void who was going to destroy Asgard, yet Thor wasn't even slightly fast enough to even wield his arm and Asgard was going down (read Siege #3). That's not really a good showcase for Thor.
All the Thor-hype later on came because of the power upgrade from the Norn stones and he was able to inflict damage on Void later on, as well kill him, when Bob demanded it. No biggie IMO.
@SlimJ87D said:
Actually I thought I offered you everything you would need. Weird. Can't come up with more, since that's basically it. You got what you were asking for.So it's just your opinion then? You have no proof? That's good we established that. Moving on.
@SlimJ87D said:
You're acting like Sentry is the guy who is too weak to lift a helicarrier and gets manhandles by the She-Hulk?Lastly, quit trying to say people DON'T get it when it's you that doesn't understand. The Sentry used in this fight is just Sentry. No one is doubting Sentry/Voids power, the fact is that he's not used in this fight. What you're not understanding is that there's the Sentry and there's the Void. They are not the same people, just like Gray Hulk (Joe Fixit) and WWH are not the same hulks so defeating one doesn't merit you a defeat over the other. That being said, of course Sentry stands the best chance against the void because the Void is him locked in a sub conscious as another persona. Every time Sentry fought and defeated the void it was really him fighting himself and suppressing his other persona. Sentry never beat the void out of brute force. Example, he thought he locked him in a vault when really you find out he literally locked him in his mind.
But now you're assuming when it comes to the Sentry and the Void. Didn't you read their final battle in Sentry V2? That did look like a real fight to me, where they were piercing each other bodies and Sentry was gaining the upper hand with sheer power, by punching through Void's throat, overwhelming him and flying him into the sun. That's what I could see in the comic. I could see the Void scream in pain and beg for his life later on.
If you say that only happened beceause Sentry was brawling it out mentally, then I have to say that you're the one who is assuming and making things up, so that they can suit his needs, since the scans showed a different scenario and that was a fight between two power houses. Sentry was "sane" there, while later on he was not and there was never a fight between them, because Void simply took over his body, since it was that simple mind-fucking a weakened Sentry.
And besides that it's not like Sentry only had bad showings. He had his good days, he had his bad days.
You can't doubt that Blue Marvel was a power house, yet the Sentry defeated him. He got knocked into the space yeah, but he returned shortly after and speedblitzed Blue Marvel into the ground with one rush. Sentry obviously took the damage as well, but he was the one who was barely standing afterwards. What makes you think that Thor would have so much of an easier game, when it comes to withstanding the damage?
Photon is a different example. A character who is probably more powerful than Thor and the Sentry was holding his own against Photon, maybe even outpowering him as the pannels have shown it.
As already mentioned above. Sentry easily defeated the Absorbing Man, someone who always gave Thor a run for his money.
And for the WW Hulk ... as someone already mentioned it above. Thor wasn't really able to defeat Nul-Hulk, who SHOULD be at similar power levels like World War Hulk, maybe slightly stronger, but Thor got nearly killed and everything he did was BFR'ing Nul-Hulk with Mjolnir.
Sentry took the punches, smiled, demanded more, took more, while talking during it and when he stopped talking and attacked back, Hulk was the one who got damaged.
1. Reed (everything)
2. Luthor (can cure cancer)
3. Stark (simply a pure genius)
4. Wayne (had to work hard for his knowledge)
Combat intelligence:
1. Wayne (master strategist who can take down the entire Justice League)
2. Stark (adapts to nearly every single situation)
3. Luthor (gives Superman a run for his many on a regular basis)
4. Reed (can compete with anything and anyone, thanks to his inventions, so he should actually be on the first place, but since he got outsmarted by Daken..)
Inventions:
1. Reed (Anti-Galactus suit)
2. Wayne (speed force in a suit)
3. Stark (way too much fancy stuff)
4. Luthor (actually not that much IIRC)
Running a business:
1. Luthor (has all the money in the world)
2. Stark (helps out everyone with his inventions)
3. Wayne (too busy being Batman to maximize his profits)
4. Reed (broke as fuuuuuck compared to the others)
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!
When it comes to close combat, then Wade is more than good enough to beat up street thugs and Hand ninja. Jason competes with members of the Batfamily, so he has the clear advantage in that one.
In terms of bullets and explosives? I would give Jason the advantage even there, simply because he has the versatility thanks to his gadgets. Deadpool does not have gadgets. He has guns and explosives and Jason knows how to deal with that stuff.
It would be a good fight in every single scenario and Jason would win 1 + 3 for sure, yet struggle with scenario 2, because Deadpool can set up some sweet traps, but in the end of the day the Red Hood is a more skilled version of Deadpool, who survives and wins even without having a healing factor, while Deadpool doesn't take things seriously because of his healing factor. Not having it for this fight shouldn't turn him from zero to hero, just in order to win. He would probably still lose big time, because he would fool around.
I wish Deadpool would start killing Marvel writers like Fraction and Bendis today, instead of the Marvel universe.
It's my opinion based on the fact that I can't deny what the creator of the character had in mind when he invented the Sentry character and his arch-nemesis the Void, who has defeated Thor and the other Avengers over and over again and Sentry was every single time the one who had to stop him, while he was mentally stable.@Mendis said:
@othus12 said:why does thor without odinforce beats a mentally stable sentry?
He doesn't. Sentry was created as a character more powerful than Thor.
Is this an opinion of yours or did the writers actually say so themselves?
The Void broke all of Hulks bones without even trying it. I can't remember the last time Thor did that. I can't remember the last time Thor ever easily defeated Savage Hulk, yet a Sentry who slowly started going downhill with his mental stability was more than enough to stalemate the WW Hulk, without using the immense variety of his powers.
People like to downgrade the Sentry, because of few bad showings that can easily be related to bad PIS writing in order to quickly remove him from the battlefield.
They like to ignore all of his ridiculously awesome showings, like in facting taking WW Hulks punches to the face, stalemating the Collective who easily defeated Binary, who is a planet-buster (something that Thor is probably not), going toe on toe with Photon and holding his own & destroying multiple planets in the process and during that still holding back.
There are not many instances which clearly show Thor and Sentry in a similar scenario, but the few that are out there put Sentry in a better spotlight.
The fights against the Void, where Thor was mostly useless, like in the past and also during Siege, where he was only able to inflict damage on the Void, because all the heroes got powered up by the Norn stones so that even the low league heroes were able to harm the Void.
In a different instance you see Spider-Man swinging around and saving Thor, who has been beat up by a bunch of Ymir demons and there is the Sentry, busting through all of them and saving the moment. Speaking about Spider-Man. Wolverine and Spider-Man are faster than Thor. Sentry is MUCH faster than Wolverine and Spider-Man in every single aspect and speed is always an important factor, when it comes to a fight.
I don't doubt Thor's powerful and his skill, but come on man. Sentry is above him, if you overlook the bad writing with the Helicarrier instances and other PIS BS like Hammond overloading him with fire, or a bunch of kids getting rid of him with a spell.
And yes, the writers actually said it as well.
The most 'recent' (2 years ago or something) was Bendis' opinion on the entire story, where he said that Sentryvoid's powerlevels were over the top and that it should have been clear that the only reason the heroes were able to defeat him, was because Bob wanted to die later on, when he realiazed that his evil side was causing all the damage to the world.
Here is what the writer had to say to that:
CBR NEWS: In this scene, Thor finally ends the threat of the Void AKA Bob Reynolds by killing him. It seems like when you consider the Void's power level, the only way this could have happened was because the Void wanted to die.
Brian Michael Bendis: I see there is a lot of online speculation about that, and I thought it was pretty clear. I don't like to over analyze these things. I prefer the work to speak for itself ...
... Bob realized that things had gone as far as they could possibly go. There was no other end for him and without his cooperation he doesn't go away. I just didn't want to have a line in the script where someone like Spider-Woman goes, "Boy, if he didn't want us to kill him, we couldn't have killed him." I see a lot of people got it, though.
That's what people don't get at all, and I really mean AT ALL.
In the last Siege issue Bob was not only asking the Avengers to kill him, he was demanding it and then there was Thor, who didn't do that much in the entire battle before, before getting the power upgrade, that turned even Captain America and Spider-Man into powerhouses. Killing a person who demands the killing blow isn't that much of a feat for Thor.
@venomoushatred1001 said:
@Mendis said:
@othus12 said:why does thor without odinforce beats a mentally stable sentry?
He doesn't. Sentry was created as a character more powerful than Thor.
No, he wasn't.
I don't think that what happened in the year 1962 matters that much, since that was the year where Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created Thor and they wanted him to be the most powerful hero.
Being more powerful than Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, Iron Man and the Hulk isn't that much of a big deal, but through out the years more powerful characters have been created and Sentry was one of them, since Paul Jenkins wanted so.
Yeah, Sentry did have some TERRIBLE showings and was jobbing a lot for the plot, but you could say the same for Thor who gets smacked around by simply everyone in the on-going Avengers VS X-Men, simply for the sake of the plot.
Sure mate!@Mendis said:
@JediXMan said:
Void used the molecule manipulation to get rid of the Molecule Man. To destroy one of Noh-Varr's weapons and to kill Loki later on.And as the Void, he never utilized it.
Care to prove that he utilized any sort of molecular manipulation on anybody but Molecule Man? And I don't recall him going Void on MM.
The scan where he kills Loki has already been posted. You could believe that he did it by simply blowing him up, but it looks exact the same way he did it to Molecule Man, who was complaining that he is the one who controles the molecules.
And yeah, I would also say that he wasn't Voided out during his fight with the Molecule Man, but just a damn angry Sentry with black eyes, but I personally don't differ between Sentry and Void. For me they're still the same guy who snaps out sometimes.
There are the scans where he lets Noh-Varr's weapon disappear in the same fashion as before.
And I still don't understand what Bendis had in mind when he wrote the first page.
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