Lvenger's forum posts

#1 Edited by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@arturocalakayvee said:

No worries. According to the video, DC came to Landis with an idea of rebooting or retconing DoS in pre52 continuity with Greg Pak but since he couldn't change his schedule around, it didn't come to fruition. I think this story still is possible for the New 52 -assuming they do a past story arc showing what actually happened- but Landis created this video to tell people what his idea is without the input or editing of Greg Pak. Landis says he wants his story out of continuity and with good reason. To sum the first half -The Doomsday half- it shows Doomsday nearly kill every single hero it comes across until he stabs Kal until his face is nearly shredded off -literally- until Superman decides "Okay, gotta kill him." He kills Doomsday but instead of dying he decides "F this, Superman is stupid. Krypton is STUUUPID." He goes back to Smallville, lives there, something cool happens I admit while he's there but I won't spoil it, then he's convinced to be Superman again when .. part 2 happens. But I won't spoil that either. Sorry, this seems really convoluted but I'm trying to work around spoiling a lot for you.

I can see why the story being OOC would have been better had Landis been involved in the project. Some of his ideas such as DD killing every hero he fights and Superman giving up being Superman are ideas that DC probably wouldn't get behind. From your description, some things do seem good like the return to Smallville and Doomsday being a rampaging beast once again seem interesting. But your eloquent description of the "Krypton is STUUUPID" bit makes me perplexed about what the deal is there. Guess I'll have to watch this for myself to get the full deal.

Landis is somewhat known for being a little fratty so "Krypton is STUUPID" was eloquent when it comes to his persona ahah. But I do think you should watch it because Krypton being stupid plays a huge part in the second half of the story, in which Superman may or may not be a murder so watch out, you might get angry over that, and also because there is still a chance this story becomes reality.

Ah right that does make sense. He's seemed that way in the videos I've seen of him. Regarding the murdering comment, I am fine with Superman 'killing Doomsday' since Doomsday is like an out of control, rabid beastial animal that doesn't listen to reason, has no concept of what it's doing wrong and is genetically programmed to be the ultimate force for destruction. He's a genetic abomination and kind of not alive given his lack of sense of self and other things. But Superman snapping Zod's neck or executing Pocket Universe criminals does get on my nerves since although their deeds are heinous, they are living beings that have made poor choices but that doesn't give anyone the right to take their lives into the hands the way they've done before. That isn't the kind of morality I approve of.

#2 Posted by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: @raynorj

You also know what I don't get? Why these people think that the Hulk can't beat heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter and Thor. He's battled powerhouses like them before (Thor, Hyperion, Gladiator, Herc, Sentry) and even teams of heroes which included many powerhouses of the same powerhouse of similar caliber. Yet, when Doomsday, who is basically the Hulk gone mindless/beserk, bests Superman, battles a team of heroes, or snaps Wonder Woman's arms... they're okay with it.

Hypocritical much?

OK let me just abjectly break things down as to why I and most other people think Hulk loses to the aforementioned DC characters because you're not in the mindset of understanding the feats of these DC characters whereas I know a lot about them and the Hulk.

  • Speed - I'll start with the elephant in the room. Many DC powerhouses have shown top tier speed feats in their myriad of battles. Superman has hypersonic+ combat speed, he can perceive events slowed down to a nanosecond as if they're happening in real time and can blitz people faster than they can speak or realise what's going on. Martian Manhunter can blitz White Martians capable of blitzing Superman and effortlessly react to bullets. And Wonder Woman has trained combat reaction feats and has tagged Wally West on several occasions as well as react to Superman plus there's a statement she has faster reaction speeds than Superman. The Hulk has better combat speed feats than Thor as I've argued before but he's only street level/low level superhuman at best in speed and reactions. He won't be able to perceive their speed blitzes and characters like Gladiator, Sentry and Hyperion that have shown superspeed should use their speed on the Hulk. Thus, the speed blitz is the main factor as to why Hulk can't beat DC powerhouses.
  • Versatility - Hulk may have a slight physical superiority but the other characters are more powerful and versatile in their powers. Superman can unleash all of his combat powers at once. A flurry of super speed, super strong punches whilst peppering Hulk with heat vision and freeze breath makes Superman a menacing foe for Hulk to face. Martian Manhunter has telepathy which, regardless of the Hulk's TP feats will be no much for MM. He's shown superior feats to Xavier and broken through tougher telepathic defenses than the Hulk's. And he has intangibility which allows him to basically f*** the Hulk's organs up and defeat him from the inside. And Wonder Woman has her Lasso, bracelets and tiara. The tiara would be capable of cutting Hulk given that Superman and gods have been cut from it, the bracelets produce a forcefield and lighting and the lasso would incapacitate Hulk entirely. Before you mention the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, those haven't held Skyfathers like Diana's lasso has. If Thor were to use Mjolnir constructively like he does on cosmic beings, Hulk would go down to him rather swiftly. Since he prefers to bludgeon the Hulk H2H, we have the infamous Hulk vs Thor rivalry.
  • Comparable Physicals - Although the Hulk surpasses all the characters in raw physical stats, they all approach Hulk in strength and striking power. Superman has towed the Earth around whilst Starbreaker moved it into the Sun with Hal Jordan's help and I've calculated that Superman can lift 3.3 quintillion tons from that feat. He's also an effortless moon buster and has one shotted John Stewart's forcefields and since John's shields protected him from the planetary destruction of Xanshi, that's an impressive feat. MM has gone toe to toe with the entire League and the team busting Despero so that's definitely put him on Superman's strength level. And Wonder Woman has managed to survive the wrath of a bloodlusted Superman twice, easily tank a nuke, overpower female Kryptonians Power Girl and Supergirl, withstand the entire Olympic Pantheon blasting her with a beam of energy and more. That's another reason why the DC powerhouses win more often than not, because their feats are physically comparable to Hulk's.
  • The Doomsday Fallacy - Lastly, using Doomsday as an example of a "beserk Hulk" doesn't count as a good argument. Doomsday possesses adaptive physiology, an insane healing factor and the Hunter/Prey version, the one you reference, has defeated Darkseid, a Mother Box enhanced Superman and several members from the Morrison Justice League line up which is arguably one of the most powerful incarnations of the League after the Silver Age version. Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Wally West, Orion and more fell to H/P Doomsday and that puts him squarely in the team busting category, something Hulk has no equivalent claim to. This is why using Doomsday as a comparison is flawed because Doomsday is tailored to be unstoppable due to his genetic tampering.

Hope that's clarified some things as to why people think DC powerhouses can always overpower the Hulk.

#3 Posted by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

No worries. According to the video, DC came to Landis with an idea of rebooting or retconing DoS in pre52 continuity with Greg Pak but since he couldn't change his schedule around, it didn't come to fruition. I think this story still is possible for the New 52 -assuming they do a past story arc showing what actually happened- but Landis created this video to tell people what his idea is without the input or editing of Greg Pak. Landis says he wants his story out of continuity and with good reason. To sum the first half -The Doomsday half- it shows Doomsday nearly kill every single hero it comes across until he stabs Kal until his face is nearly shredded off -literally- until Superman decides "Okay, gotta kill him." He kills Doomsday but instead of dying he decides "F this, Superman is stupid. Krypton is STUUUPID." He goes back to Smallville, lives there, something cool happens I admit while he's there but I won't spoil it, then he's convinced to be Superman again when .. part 2 happens. But I won't spoil that either. Sorry, this seems really convoluted but I'm trying to work around spoiling a lot for you.

I can see why the story being OOC would have been better had Landis been involved in the project. Some of his ideas such as DD killing every hero he fights and Superman giving up being Superman are ideas that DC probably wouldn't get behind. From your description, some things do seem good like the return to Smallville and Doomsday being a rampaging beast once again seem interesting. But your eloquent description of the "Krypton is STUUUPID" bit makes me perplexed about what the deal is there. Guess I'll have to watch this for myself to get the full deal.

#4 Posted by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't mention Morrison at all, I was talking about Landis's idea about DoS. It's a pretty interesting story with some "wtf" twists. You really gotta find time to watch it. I didn't like how there was no actual "death" involved. At all. In fact, I said above I didn't like the metaphorical death -Clark said Superman is dead because he no longer wanted to be Superman- because he became Superman again almost RIGHT after he said it. The story shouldn't have been called Death and Return of Superman, it should have been … ahem … DOOMSDAY F*CKS EVERYTHING UP…and Superman has the self-conflict of a teenage boy. *insert DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN music* To me, the story was exactly like Death of the Family. The family was supposed to die, according to the story. But instead - they just got a little upset with Bruce. THAT'S what happened in this what-if story, basically.

Oh, oops, my bad for getting things wrong there. So what Landis was pitching to DC was Doomsday destroying everything and Superman having a Spider-Man esque conflict about what he's doing? Is that what the deal was for the story? I'm having mixed feelings about it then all things considered but as you said, I should find the time to watch it. In fact I think I'll probably have time tonight to do it so I can do that. And whilst I am a very scathing critic of the conclusion to Death of the Family being lackluster, overhyped and poorly executed into a contrived and disappointing end, there was never much doubt that the family would actually die was there? Snyder had to find some other way of splintering the Bat Family and the end result wasn't that good.

#5 Posted by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

@spinningbirdcake: I guessed that would be the case regrettably. Snyder and Lee are goldmines for DC since both have worked on their best selling books. Whilst it would have been nice if they put another creative team on board, it makes financial sense unfortunately. And people did say it would basically be a mini series in essence so you're right, it isn't surprising.

#6 Posted by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

Kingdom Come Superman. Black Adam didn't show any feats beyond Pre Flashpoint Superman and they stalemated each other in their Pre Infinite Crisis fight. If a hit from Martian Manhunter, Superman's near physical equal, can be felt by Adam, KC Superman is going to walk all over Adam. His durability enables him to tank Adam's 'magical attacks' even though the only confirmed one is the Shazam bolt. And KC Superman had some neat speed feats too. Definitely a clear victor for this fight and that's KC Superman.

#7 Posted by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

18 was slightly disappointing, Guess the Hulk action will be reserved For April.

http://www.comicvine.com/indestructible-hulk-18-humanity-bomb-part-two/4000-442922/user-reviews/2200-41827

Oh dear and that sky battle in 17 was really fun, could've carried over nicely to the next issue. I liked 17 a lot so a disappointment here isn't good for the series.

#8 Posted by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

BEST. COVER. EVER. in the New 52 thus far. That is just plain spectacular and those colours are rich and vibrant. Plus the Amazons being commanded by the New God of War that is Wonder Woman waging a battle against diabolical enemies?

#9 Edited by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

No source, no confirmation, no grounds for substantiating its truth but it discusses some controversial things?

Or maybe, just maybe we can wait to hear from the studio and people involved on the project rather than basing our views on rumours. I'm not wholly pleased with these rumours if they are true but with no source behind them, they aren't for now.

#10 Edited by Lvenger (21953 posts) - - Show Bio

Anything quoted from Binder deserves to be locked and for the key to be thrown away. That guy was not only incorrect in many of his 'debunks' and flawed arguments, he was generally a not very pleasant person to discuss things with either. The less of his stuff on here, the better things will be for the Vine.