Finally read all the way through this debate. A very entertaining one at that. I give my vote to @thundergodswrath:for a more well rounded argument for Hulk being able to overpower Arkillo as well as effectively countering Clark-El's suggestions. There was a tad more depth to your posts to so that swung me in your favour. Great debate between the 2 of you, it was a very compelling read!
Lvenger's forum posts
By the way this post is finished now. Fire away with your reply.
Okay I am ready to beat you, lol. Also good luck too you too !
For starters it is true Superman has advantages in speed, strength, striking power, and durability, but that alone will not help to beat Loki with morals off. Most of the times you see Loki fighting Thor he's playing around, and having fun like it's all fun, and games. If you think about it his battles with Thor seem to be the same as Joker, and Batman. Joker, and Loki fool around, while Thor, and Batman got to stop them. This time we are going to see a serious Loki, but first here is an example to as how Loki plays with Thor.
So you honestly think those decoys can fool someone with Superman's superhuman senses? If Loki tries to trick Superman like that, all it'll take is a quick look with his senses to pick out the real Loki amongst the fakes and then the Prince of Mischief will be in serious trouble once a morals off Superman gets his hands on him.
Not many of those scans support your point. How does fooling down a chasm prove Loki can withstand hits from Superman who undoubtedly hits with greater force than that chasm could exert on Loki. Finally Mandarin? Superman would eat him and other Iron Man level characters for breakfast so Loki shrugging off that attack is hardly a big deal. Still doesn't prove he can tank Superman's attacks if all you have to offer is a non human related attack and the Mandarin blasting him. The Thor one is decent enough sure but since Loki is in the 30-40 ton class if we're being generous without any amping on himself, it's pretty clear Thor would still be holding back even in that first scan. And holding back is something Superman won't be doing in this fight.
And you're basing Loki's shield strength on what, the skill of his sorcery? I take it that means you couldn't find any scans of Loki's shields withstanding any physical blows? Well that means it's still up for grabs as to whether Superman can break it. So for a refresher I'll remind you of some of the other striking feats Superman is capable of
So please tell me again, if Superman is more than willing to hit like this in a fight, how are Loki's shields going to survive against such hits? As for your other example, it might seem like Loki has a lot going for his own reaction times but compared to the man that can count the time between nanoseconds in that earlier scan I showed, moving at the speed of thought isn't too big a deal. Plus Superman can always speed up his senses if he needs to. So in any case, Loki is way outclassed in the speed/ reaction department
Although Superman is faster than thought it should just show Loki is not slow. He will get his spells in. Which will hurt Superman greatly when they hit since this is morals off. Having a weakness to magic doesn't help. I know you have shown scans of Superman shrugging of magical blasts, and punches from beings such as Captain Marvel. But really. Do you believe any of them contain magical power on the level of Loki? A being's who's very powers rely directly on spells, and magic? Loki's magic attacks have some pretty nasty affects, and go from transmution to telepathy. From telekinesis to energy projection.
As I mentioned before, Superman has dodged plenty of kryptonite lasers and red sun blasts in his time. Loki's spells won't be that much harder to dodge especially once he realises how dangerous Loki's attacks can be.
To just show you how frequently Loki uses transmution i'm going to show you more scans.
So basically I just showed you 17 instances where Loki uses transmution. This means he uses it often, because these are not the only instances. Now tell me this. Does Superman have resistance against being transmuted? Even if he does have resistance Loki can affect the city by transmuting buildings, cars, and such into his liking. Or he can just use the clouds to make dragons. This will give Loki number's, and time to prepare spells too.
I'm glad you brought this up. Superman has plenty of resistance against magical transmuatation. Allow me to demonstrate
Here Superman's resisting and fighting off a magical transmutation spell from Lord Satanus. Even if Loki's spell does hurt him, Superman will still be able to shrug it off just as he did here. And here's another one
Here Superman tanks magical transmutational lightning that takes out the rest of the JLA. Even Wonder Woman who supposedly has more magical resistance than Superman. I think this is quite telling that even against transmutational attacks, Superman has more than his fair share of resistance feats to it. With that trump card countered, your other tactic doesn't hold much steam either since Superman will very easily speed blitz Loki's extra players in no time flat. Which means Loki won't get that long to prepare his spells. Even if he does Superman can move far faster than a word in combat situations so that won't help Loki either
Loki can also make clones of himself that could be illusions or real. Although they don't seem to have the same durability as he does.
As I said earlier, do you really think that can hold any stock against a man who's able to see across the entire visible spectrum? Loki's clones won't do him any good against Superman.
This will give Loki the number's he can summon them, and than while Superman's finding the real one he can try using his telepathy on Superman. He has gotten into Odin's subconsciousness. Although Odin was weakened still an impressive showing.
Oh well it's a shame Superman doesn't have any mental resistance feats. Oh no wait he does. And if that doesn't work he can always use Torquasm Vo instead, a mental martial art that defends against illusions or mental attacks.
A next way I don't see Superman catching Loki, and this way is more used, and better against Superman. Loki can turn intangible. What makes this ability so dangerous is that Loki can cast spells while intangible. So basically he can stay intangible, and attack the man of steel with a heed of spells.
To be honest that scan of him phasing a sword into Mjolnir shows that he can phase something into Superman. So if Loki wants he can transmute lets say a car into a sword, turn intangible, and than phase it into Superman's brain or heart, and you got yourself a gravely wounded Superman. Who will than be blasted to death with magical attacks. Unless Superman has resistance to this.
Did I mention Loki can turn invisible too if he doesn't feel like turning intangible?
Oh so we're going to the phasing tactic are we? Did you know Superman has plenty phasing feats of his own
So if you want to play things that way, Superman has plenty phasing feats of his own. Loki won't be able to touch him in the fight either if we play things this way. None of Loki's spells can touch him and it's bad enough that Superman is far faster than Loki. And it's funny you should mention Superman having magical resistance. Just before the end of the Pre New 52 universe, the Phantom Stranger gave Superman a resistance to some magical attacks before his fight with Orion
I bet you weren't expecting this all from Loki, lol. He is quite a powerful being. He is also cunning. I could see him making an illusion of Superman's real or foster parents. Or even Superboy, and Supergirl fighting one of the transmuted creatures Loki has summoned up. In which Superman would run to there aid giving Loki the moment to strike. Here are scans of Loki's illusions.
Than he would strike !
Well I was expecting versatility and you've given me plenty of that. But Superman's broken through plenty of illusions in his time and Loki's illusion casting requires him to have broken through Superman's mental defenses which I have provided support for. Then he'd have to tag Superman which I have shown will be very hard for Loki to do. One last thing. How would Loki counter a tactic Superman has used on The Hat, a magical member of The Elite in Action Comics 775 of flying at 500 miles a minute around Loki? Even if he can survive it, his lungs would collapse from the vacuum and even a god needs to breath. Just a final thought for you there.
@lvenger: it can only be speculation because this has never happened and 100toners are not going to stop him when he has more gamma he is more stronger
he was incredibly strong when he was 80ft if he has been having gamma for 10,000 years he would be able to do alot more then bench press the earth he could do that when his normal
theoretically he would be able to squash the earth with the JLA inside if he wanted to
Right because that's a reasonable way to justify Hulk winning. Doesn't change the outcome that the League still has so many ways of winning the fight. You know I could just try and extrapolate New 52 Superman's sundipped level but that's never happened. Point is that Hulk is still a brick and the League brings far more to the table.
@war_hulk_kills_sentry2: Quoting from a wiki. How reliable. You do realise Hulk's powers become simple when compared to the versatility of the League? Even in their New 52 versions, they still have ways to beat this Hulk quite handily. Let's run through them again shall we?
- Superman can bench the Earth for 5 days and hits hard enough that the force can be felt in the centre of the Earth as well as the farthest reaches of the Atmosphere. And he's very, very fast too. How's he going down?
- Wonder Woman's in the same bracket as Superman physically, is a skilled warrior, has an unbreakable lasso and can go god mode.
- Flash can BFR Hulk to the speed force
- Cyborg can BFR him anywhere.
- Hal could probably take him too.
So that's 5 ways from 5 members who can beat the Hulk. Again what's your case for him winning? It's pure speculation to try and estimate how powerful he'd be based on the amp the OP has given him.
Stop complaining people, this is a popularity contest in reality, not a proper debate where feats and arguments are considered. And in a popularity contest, Batman always wins no matter what. Besides there's something similar to 'The Rage' in MK vs DCU that enables street levelers to mix it up with speedsters and powerhouses. This changes nothing.
Nice Opener @lvenger:. Good luck to both you guys in this debate,Superman's speeds gonna be one tough nut to crack :)
Thanks! But I know a little of Loki's feats being a Thor fan and there's plenty for Superman to worry about even with his speed advantage.
@thundergodswrath: My opening statement is finished TGW. No need to wait, you can get stuck in with your reply. For clarification, if my posts say "Post unfinished, more to come" or something like that, then that means I'm not done yet. This one is done however. The ball is in your court mate. Good luck!
@thundergodswrath: Very well. There is one proviso to this debate however. I might not be able to finish this post in this half hour break I have so may have to come back to it to finish it off. All I ask you to be, if you'd be gracious enough is to let me finish the post before replying to it. That could take a while but I can finish it by the middle of the day at least due to work.
Right now let me begin. First let illustrate Superman's advantages. Superman has the clear physical strength and striking power advantage against Loki. The guy is always on the back foot against his arch nemesis Thor's superior physical prowess and Superman will be no exception. Here are some of the striking feats Superman can be capable of and I can include some morals off ones too since that has been specified in the fight
And I can show more like Superman hitting Captain Marvel so hard he creates a sonic boom with his punch or the Black Racer redirecting the force of Superman's punch back at him which destroys a large section of the moon they're present on. Only thing is the thread I usually get these feats from has been ruined by the site redesign so I'm having to improvise my feats. But I doubt Loki will be able to survive many hits like this especially since Superman's morals are off for this fight. A couple of licks like this and Loki can go down pretty easily.
Anyway that's one advantage. The second is speed and by what a great margin it is too. Hypersonic+ combat speed at the very least coupled with nanosecond reaction times makes Superman a dangerously fast foe to fight. I've never seen Loki fight a foe who can move like this
Again this is just a taster of how Superman can fight and move against foes. Granted my scans show him fighting opponents that don't emulate Loki's usual fighting style of long distance magic but I have scans for this too
Even against red sun radiation blasts from a Sun Eater that can weaken him, Superman can still dodge a fair amount of them. So I don't see why if Loki tries to use some kind of projectile attack against Superman, he won't dodge it just as easily as he did the red sun blasts. There are also scans of him dodging kryptonite blasts from a Kryptonian robot Lex Luthor used in Up, Up and Away but I can only reference those.
So now I guess I should move onto why Loki's magic won't be a killer argument against Superman. Even though magic can affect him, Superman has shown several resistance feats against it. Here's him tanking a bolt from Circe intended to destroy Themyscira
Next I'll give you a link to some feats of Superman resisting some transmutational magic that takes out the rest of the JLA and delivers the finishing blow to Disciple, the villain: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/marvel-vs-dc-heavy-hitters-755875/
Then we have Superman resisting Captain Marvel's magical lightning bolt whilst fighting off Eclipso's control
So the way I see it, there's no good reason why Loki's magic will prove the decisive factor in taking down Superman. He can affect Superman, that much is a given but I hold that Superman holds many more cards than Loki does. Striking power, speed (something Loki isn't used to fighting in opponents) and reaction times. For an example of how this fight could go I refer you to this
Just replace Faust with Loki and the following scene with Superman moving in for the kill. Loki won't be able to counter the speed blitz nor react fast enough to it once Superman gets his hands on him. Wow I didn't think I could finish this post in time. Your move mate.
@thundergodswrath: You're worried? I'm the only one who should be worried about this debate . Loki has some very impressive sorcery feats and whilst I know a lot about Superman, he is vulnerable to magic. Nonetheless, he does have some magical resistance feats so I can still make this debate interesting. And hey we still get to have our debate after all.
Haha, yep. Well you got the speed advantage. I'm not so worried about strength since Loki fights Thor regularly. But enough let's save this for the match :)