Lvenger's forum posts

#1 Posted by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:


Since when have you subscribed to Frozen's logic?

I was not the first to use this logic/argument, so I ask of you kindly to not dub it ''Frozen's logic''.

See my edit, I took it out whilst you made that comment to me.

#2 Posted by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

Wish I'd seen this thread before making my dupe one. Anyway this is gonna ruffle loads of feathers to be certain, almost as many as their Superman vs Goku Death Battle. This match up is just as close as their other controversial one and Death Battle drawing a line in the sand is gonna complicate things.

#3 Edited by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@lvenger said:

I could see Adam winning this after a tough battle but New 52 Superman will make him work for it. Fortunately for Adam though, the New 52 version isn't quite as durable, fast or versatile as his predecessor and that might allow Teth's superior physicals and lethal nature to take the advantage. I can see a 5.5/6 wins out of 10 split for Adam.

Also who's Shiruta? She's not anyone Adam knows or cares about last time I checked.

Adam's getting more than 5.5 wins.

The main reason Pre-new 52 Superman beat Adam was speed, and I'm not even positive new 52 Clark has that over Adam considering he's countered blitzes from Jay Garrick, someone who's speed dwarfs New 52 Clarks. Not to mention how ineffective his blitzes are(Orion, who's weaker than Teth, tanked a blitz and smiled. When he was blitzing parasite his individual hits did so little damage parasite was able to talk to him). Adams feats of stalemating Post-crisis Superman and Orion and soloing the JSA are simply better than Clark, who's only around as strong as Gladiator right now.

I see Teth winning 7/10 times, the other 3 he tries to do this:

And given New 52 Supermans physical strength it won't end well.

Superman's other feats put him above Adam in most of the other categories. Pre New 52 Superman has superior strength, striking power, durability, versatility and tactical thinking. Show me any feats where Adam comes close to Superman in these categories.

Adam's showings can often be grossly overrated, especially when the powerful foes he's 'beaten' like Alan Scott and Martian Manhunter were holding back or jobbing. As for 'stalemating' Pre New 52 Superman, that fight had Superman fight as a simple brawler rather than using his superior combat speed, tactical thinking and versatility he's consistently shown on many other showings. In other words, it wasn't a fight where Superman fought to his full capacity, not something that will be limiting him on the battle forums.

As for physical strength, New 52 Superman has 3 consistent planetary strength feats, most recently pushing a ship that dwarfed the size of the Earth by a huge margin. I'm afraid that your statement about Adam's physical strength being greater than New 52 Superman's is simply incorrect.

  • Post Crisis Superman was jobbing to Adam.
  • Orion only had a brief fight with Adam and has done much better against a morals off mind controlled Superman than Adam did to an in character Superman.
  • He only soloed the JSA because Jay Garrick forgot he could speed steal and Alan Scott wasn't fighting at his best. At his best in character power levels, he's stalemated Kyle Rayner twice and has held off Mordru whose feats are just as powerful as his Pre Crisis ones according to Beatboks.

Lastly, on the "Adam not getting affected by Superman's blitzes" Superman's bullrush blitzes are definitely going to be felt by Adam.

So I stand by my statement that Adam only just takes the majority of wins. He'll win the majority, that I do not disagree with. But New 52 Superman can make him work for each win.

#4 Posted by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: really ? I didn't read it can you show me ?

Here's the original link in case you can't view the pictures on my copy and pasted attempt to show you the post.

Superman can survive inside a black hole unharmed

Let's analyze this assertion. Generally speaking, whenever a user submits that Superman can withstand the power of a singularity, they reference him "holding a black hole in his hand" or "flying out of a double black hole." The problem is that both of these examples disregard context. There are two occasions, to my knowledge, where Superman has come in close proximity to a black hole, both of which strained him profusely. The other instance pertaining to a "dual black hole" is completely misrepresented. If there are any other instances of Superman flying into a black hole, I hardly profess to being the most knowledgeable Superman reader, but these are the ones that are usually brought up by users here (myself included; this is as much a correction on my part as on other people's).

First, this showing is from Action Comics Annual #7. In this comic, Superman flies into space to fight the H'tros. While he destroys the H'tros vessels, one of them hurls a grenade that opens a small black hole. Superman notices this and attempts to resist its pull before being pulled in. On the rare occasion that I have seen users address this event, they usually present it as if Superman was pulled into the black hole and then escaped, but this never happened. He recognizes the black hole and flies away from it. However, the gravitational pull is powerful enough that Superman feels like his legs could be torn off. He endures genuine harm from this, and he is not even inside the black hole. Once Superman escapes its pull, he hurls a ship into its maw to collapse it. The minute size of this black hole and the fact that it could be closed by simply tossing a relatively average-sized vessel into it lead me to believe that this artificial singularity was hardly as powerful as is usually predisposed when people think of resisting the effects of a black hole, and more than that, Superman was under extreme duress just by being near it.

With that said, this comic was labeled a "Year One" story in the opening, and this was written as Superman's first space adventure. So it could be surmised that he was just not as powerful as he was later on and could therefore survive inside a black hole later in his career, an erroneous conclusion which leads us to the next example.

This is from JLA #77. To elaborate on what precedes this, a being called Mnemon uses gravity to steal people's memories, because his creator wanted to accumulate the purest expressions of art and music from the memories of entire civilizations across the universe. So Mnemon exists inside a small device that encapsulates him and his black hole in a magnetic field designed by his creator to contain him as he traverses the universe to obtain art from people's minds. (That really is all I can say about the backstory of this event because the plot of this issue is a convoluted mess.) He arrives on the moon where John Stewart and the Atom find him. Atom shrinks down to discover the singularity obstructed inside the magnetic field. Mnemon utilizes gravity to steal the JLA's memories, but their memories are restored by the Atom and Superman wrecking part of the systems of the device that houses Mnemon. After this, Mnemon pierces the magnetic field containing him, and Superman tries to stop his escape. This is where he holds the black hole. He and Green Lantern travel to a wormhole where he throws Mnemon into the wormhole. Now, why this is not impressive: the black hole inside the magnetic containment field is, according to the Atom, about the size of a dust particle, and once Superman picks it up, he can barely withstand its gravity. Even when Green Lantern helps stabilize it, Superman still feels as if his hand could be ripped apart. They only manage to reach the wormhole they hurl it into by generating a magnetic field around the singularity to suppress its effects. The containment of this singularity also leaves me with some question about its actual power, but I will leave that aside. The point is, even with Stewart's aid, Superman is hurt enormously by a dust-sized, infinitesimal black hole.

Lastly, the "double black hole" incident from Superman #191. This is just a misconstrued event because there actually is no black hole here. This actually is a wormhole connecting earth to Baxt's homeworld. To assess it point by point, Superman arrives at the S.T.A.R. Labs building where a rift is open. He flies inside to meet Baxt, who was trapped inside when he entered it from his own world. Baxt is unable to leave the rift on his own; so he reinforces Superman's efforts to escape by holding the rift open long enough for Superman to fly out and close the rift, which Superman does by flying into S.T.A.R. Labs and, apparently, (though this is shown only in one panel and without much explanation) shuts off the machine that opened the rift in the first place. Doing this closes the rift also on Baxt's world, where he arrives at once the rift is no longer present there.

Now, why do people think this is a black hole that Superman flew into? Because when he first flies into the rift, he muses about the composition of black holes, and from there, readers draw the conclusion that he was inside one. However, Superman also muses that two black holes interlocked with a passageway could form a divide in the space/time continuum, essentially generating a rift in space or a wormhole. He then goes on to say that there is no proof this could happen. Now, you could object to my saying that he was not in a black hole by isolating his statement that there is no evidence for that phenomena, but that would be reading it improperly. Superman's thought-narration was him elucidating on how the rift occurred in the first place; his suggestion that there is no evidence for a wormhole composing itself from twin black holes was expositional irony. You can tell very clearly that he was not inside a black hole if you pay attention to context. The problem is that most users simply post him emerging from the wormhole but not what happened aside from that. The first few pages show an immense rift protruding from the S.T.A.R. Labs building; had this been a black hole, it would have consumed the building. A military official informs Superman that S.T.A.R. Labs scientists opened the rift, after which pulsating energy coruscates out of it and hits the military personnel. Baxt notes that the wormhole appeared in his city as well, to which he investigated it by flying inside it. Once the rift is closed, Baxt is returned to his own planet/dimension with there being no noticeable destruction caused in the area, and others watching this once again refer to the wormhole as a "rift." The general behavior and appearance of this rift is not like a black hole; its properties and Superman's exposition attest to it being a wormhole. Hence, this is not proof of Superman surviving inside a black hole.

Conclusion: Superman has never survived inside a black hole to my knowledge. Like I said, if someone else knows of a feat I personally am not aware of, I would like to see it, because as it stands, these showings actually better serve to prove that Superman can't survive inside a black hole.

#5 Posted by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

@kyrees said:

you're late by nearly 2 days though

Damn it thanks for telling me.

@saren @sc @bumpyboo Could one of you lock this thread please? It's a dupe one.

#7 Edited by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

The self proclaimed 'decider' of fictional match ups that is Death Battle will be doing Batman vs Captain America next. Makes sense given Captain America: The Winter Soldier which came out this year and Batman's 75th anniversary both occurring this year.

Thoughts on this news? Will this spark meaningful discussion or will Death Battle yet again incur more fanboy rage and angry arguments like their Superman vs Goku video did?

#8 Posted by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Miniature black hole feat is still imressive for me though

It is but it got debunked a while ago.

#9 Posted by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Also who's Shiruta? She's not anyone Adam knows or cares about last time I checked.

Teth's deceased wife

Oh his first wife? Makes sense.

@hulkman123: Nothing suggests Brainiac's ship is equivalent to Earth's weight. Plus, P-52's Superman is way more impressive in strength feat.

The black hole feat alone is impressive.

Stop denying the factual evidence, you're the one who's actually reading the Doomed event. Did you see how freaking huge the ship was? Not to mention several other sources e.g the synopsis on Action Comics 34 as well as another comment by Superman in AC 34. If the ship is said to be bigger than the Earth, that means in comic book writer speak that it weighs more than the Earth too. Writers don't much care for the durability of materials, if it's bigger than the Earth, it's a planetary feat. Thus, you cannot deny the writing basis for this feat like you always tend to do.

As for Pre New 52 Superman's more impressive strength feats, the only ones that are better than that are when he lifts the Spectre with Wonder Woman, who's supposed to weigh of the Fabric of Eternity or when he lifts a book with an infinite number of pages with Captain Marvel. Ostentaciously high end feats that he hasn't replicated since.

#10 Posted by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio