LuigiBat's forum posts

#1 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to clear a couple of things up.

I know Joker isn't intending to make Dick stronger, my point is more that the way he's going about making Batman stronger with his actions towards Nightwing will potentiality result in Dick becoming more like Bruce. This is obviously not what Joker wants,he wants Dick to be dead for being a knockoff of Batman who in turn weakens Batman, if his actions make Dick stronger/more like Bruce its really a massive oversight in his plan. He knows that to get 'his' Batman back he must break the bond between Dick and Bruce, this can be achieved with or without Dick dying but in the event that Dick lives he'll develop into a stronger character and become even more like Bruce.

#2 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

Whilst reading through issue 16 I couldn't help but think that Joker's actions towards Dick were actually somewhat flawed in their logic and reasoning. It's been made pretty damn clear that Joker desires to wipe out the Bat-family from the face of the earth as he believes that their presence causes Batman to be weak as it gives him something to rely on and fall back on. However with his actions towards Dick I couldn't help but think that Joker will actually be making Dick stronger in the long run (assuming they have a lasting effect), he calls Dick the '"worst of the Bat-fakes" and the one who makes Batman the weakest (possibly as he is Batman's strongest ally in the family), and then he proceeds to try and destroy Dick's trust in people which is the main thing that separates him from Bruce.

See what I'm getting at? On the one hand Joker berates Dick for making Batman weaker but then his actions could potentially serve to make Dick more like Bruce and therefore an even bigger 'Bat-fake'. If Joker destroys Dick's ability to trust people it'll have a knock-on effect on everything else, he'll likely hone his skills to levels equal to Bruce as a result of losing his trust in people as (like Bruce) he'll believe he can only rely on himself and must therefore be as strong as he possibly can be.

#3 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkwingdan said:

It's tough to say. I can say that if I were writing Nightwing, I'd probably hit on most of the same beats that Higgins has in his current run, except I would return Dick to Bludhaven. Yes, it was destroyed by Chemo in Infinite Crisis, but Coast City and Gotham have been destroyed in the past. Furthermore, Bludhaven is an example of a city where a hero failed. Dick did not leave the city having saved it. He left it as a disgraced character. I'd like to see him return there to battle his own personal demons.

So, I guess you could say that I'd keep him as part of the Bat Family, but more at arms' length so that he can be used if necessary.

Whilst your reasoning for having Dick return to Bludhaven is solid I still can't help myself from feeling that Dick in Bludhaven is simply another way of DC cutting him out of the action. Its a crafty way of them satisfying fans (to an extent) whilst also holding Dick back, in essence they're allowing a measure of growth in the short term so in the long term they can cut the character out of certain arcs. It satisfies fans in the sense that they see Dick getting out of Bruce's shadow and effectively becoming 'Bludhaven's Batman', but it also means that when it suits DC they can say 'Nightwing can't possibly come and help Bruce in *insert arc name* because he's all the way in Bludhaven'. We've seen this happen in the Arkham video games, there's a couple of easter eggs (posters) relating to the Flying Graysons and the word Nightwing is mentioned (along with Huntress) in an interview tape extra item in the game that can easily be missed. Yet we all know that if Bruce was stuck in the situations he found himself in during those games Dick would be contacted straight away by Alfred and he'd be there to help out regardless of whether he was in Bludhaven or not.

#4 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

Things I'm 100% sure are canon:

  • Tony Zucco murdering Dick's parents
  • Dick being Batman for a year
  • The events during Batman RIP
  • Final Crisis and everything that happened after it prior to the reboot

The latter two points aren't specifically referenced in any issues that I know of but the fact that Dick was Batman for a year leads makes it only logical to assume that the entire Morrison run on Batman still stands as canon, it all happened so recently (in real world terms) that I just cannot see it being dismissed in the current timeline.

Also, I think we need to be careful with this whole '5 year timeline' issue. As far as I'm concerned it's simply an attempt by DC to keep Bruce as young as possible, when you look at the timeline for the previous Robins he'd have to be at least 35 when Damian is revealed to him and thats a modest guess. Now he's 30 which means he got freaky with Talia before he became Batman (or was Damian somehow conceived and given accelerated growth until the age of 7 before undergoing constant training from then on?), it gives DC plenty of room to breathe with Bruce and allows them to just keep going with him as their lead character (stops any talk of him being to old for the mantle etc). As a result its ruined the history of all the previous Robins (completely wiped one of them from continuity), but this is likely a price DC were more than willing to pay given that it gives them a legit reason to set them back in terms of their abilities and avoid a scenario where they have to give a character (like Dick) a more prominent role when a crisis occurs.

#5 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

If you're going to make a Nightwing live action show it'd have to be done by HBO (who Warner Bros, owners of DC, also happen to own), I can't see any other network being able to pull it off to a good enough standard. Given how successful Game of Thrones has been they'd get a lot of backing from fans as they've been able to provide a faithful representation of one fantasy world already. HBO are the only ones who could get a Nightwing show done to a good standard as their track record should ensure they'd be given a good budget and a good crop of actors to choose from.

That being said, there is so much that can go wrong with a live action show, the main risk is that they hire someone for the main role who audiences just don't really like or warm to. In an animated series they can change character's costume/appearances and alter things easily enough to reconcile audiences, producers of a live action show have no such luxuries, so if they mess up they're pretty much screwed.

#6 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightwingdg said:

Maybe he doesn't doubt his abilities, but he realizes he has alot more to learn. He's learned everything he can under Bruce, and to take on William Cobb and the Talons he will have to take himself further than ever. To fight killers you must learn from the master of killing.

I have to somewhat agree. Bruce learned from master assassins and basically did everything aside from killing people outright, I can't help but feel that when training Dick and the others he left out certain things that he trained on when being mentored by others such as Ducard. Given that in the New 52 its become something of a regular ocurrance for Bruce to be wrong about things or misguided in his judgement I wouldn't find it hard to believe that he inadvertently limited aspects of the Robin's training, lets face it if he'd trained them to the levels he himself trained for there wouldn't have been so much for Jason to go off and do upon his resurrection.

#7 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

Happy to hear the series is so popular and that the character's being recognized for it,in terms of Raya's death however no I wasn't fazed. It's really the same problem I had with Saiko's death. They introduce these characters, have them around for a bit, and then kill them off. Not really a lot of time for us to grow to care for them (As we do say Lois Lane or Selina Kyle) and it does nothing to add to the Nightwing cast.

This hits the nail on the head for me, it's all well and good to introduce a character like Raya/Saiko but they have to be built up over time. With Raya it was like "She's some girl Dick grew up with in the circus and then f**ked upon his return to the circus only to find she was involved in a plot against him", I really couldn't care less about her dying, sure the manner in which Joker treated her was sick and horrific but I couldn't really pity her after her final appearance in an issue saw showed her taking part in a plot to kill Dick. Same goes for Saiko really, the guy could've made for an interesting character throughout the Court of Owls saga but instead was killed off just before it really kicked off, given his being kicked out of the Court (deemed unworthy or whatever) I'd be curious to see just how Saiko would act when the Court attempted to take control of Gotham.@Nightwing_Beyond said:

@LuigiBat: I guess what has people so excited is the large impact this arc will have on Nightwing. Higgins stated that this arc will insight big changes in the book for months to come. Plus, Joker and Nightwing rarely interact so it's interesting to see the dynamic between Joker and Nightwing. The only good Joker/Nightwing story I can recall is Last Laugh which was good but, you never really got to see what the Joker thinks of Nightwing. New frontiers being explored in Joker and Nightwing makes up for the lack of immense excitement for readers I suppose. I'm mainly happy about the #1 spot news because that may entice DC to get a kickass artist for the book after Eddy Barrows leaves since it's getting popular.

Now that I think about it, I cannot help but feel that the changes DOTF will cause are going to be all too predictable where Nightwing/Dick is concerned. The way I see it, Sonia Zucco will die, Dick will blame Bruce for being arrogant in his assumption that Joker didn't know who any of the Bat-family where, he'll blame himself for being unable to save Sonia (and also Raya) and then he'll get all emotional and try to give up the cowl (the solicits for February's issue pretty much confirms this) and ditch the Bat-family only for one of them to eventually talk him round.

On the artist front, I wonder how many people simply pickup Nightwing for Barrows' artwork? The last issue wasn't anything special and without the stellar artwork on show I can imagine it wouldn't have gotten near the number one slot.

#8 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

Bizzare that Nightwing issue 15 got top spot, wasn't all that special in all honesty, just a standard tie in issue that Higgins did his best to make readable.

#9 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't think the issue was anything spectacular, at this point everything is still just leading up to one big event and they are only teasing at what could happen. As with a lot of the DOTF issues that haven't been penned by Snyder you get the feeling that DC has kept a tight grip on the writers to avoid too much being given away, or for that matter its not unlikely that (as with Court of Owls) they're actively stopping the other characters from outshining Batman.

#10 Posted by LuigiBat (231 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure Dick tried to get close to Jason and bond with him back when he was starting out as Robin.

Jason's always been the one to throw it back in everyone else's face, something I think is largely due to his upbringing and Bruce's failure to get him some proper treatment prior to giving him the role of Robin. I'm no expert on Jason but it seems to me that with his harsh upbringing he interprets compassion and friendship as weaknesses, he doesn't have friends only rivals and enemies, as you can clearly see in the scan posted in this thread its not like Dick did anything to really cause Jason to get his back up so to speak. As Jason himself says "Life's a competition", I imagine Bruce didn't see through this attitude when he met Jason as he likely saw it as a sign that Jason was as committed to perfection as himself (something he was no doubt looking for after his fallout with Dick). Bruce trains to be better than everyone else because he needs to be in order to do his job, Jason trains to be better than everyone else so he can beat them all, there's a fine line between each attitude.