Wondering if my good old peeps are still in the vine.. :)
lord_oraculous016's forum posts
@lord_oraculous016: I know this,in fact that mean WPOTC is highest divine essence,more like WPOTC is GOD itself or something..
I don't think so.. That is just a bit too much.. IMO, she's more like someone who acts in behalf of a superior being in terms of the concept of the spirit, life and creation.. We all know that The Living Tribunal is the supreme judge of the omniverse.. The one who acts as the chief arbitrator and serves as the guardian of the ominiverse, in a physical way i mean.. For what i can tell, the WPOTC acts the same, but serves as a guardians of the metaphysical to spiritual realm.. The realm of the mind and spirit.. In my opion, she appears more akin to an angel in a biblical sense rather than being God.. Also, she reminds me of one.. Remember the Seraphim?.. The angel of the highest order who is clothed in holy flames.. I think she is more like that.. But to be God, heavens no.. :)
@lord_oraculous016: wow!!!a long time not see you!!!
I have a BIG question， In the real world the Crown is the beginning point and end of all life and creation. The Divine name of Keter/The Crown is Eheieh (which is rendered as Pure Being,or Presence.). It is the highest divine essence that can possibly be conceived. Beyond it is the Unknowable God. Everything exists in Keter in its archetypical form.The colour used to represent it is brilliant white,both to symbolize burning radiance and the union of all colors of the spectrum. (White Phoenix of Crown)
We that's is what defines it the the concept of the Tree of Life.. As Phoenix or others would call her "Green Phoenix", Jean was described as Tiphereth, the Heart of the Tree of Life.. like the concept which it is based on, the Green Phoenix is a being that symbolizes LOVE and COMPASSION.. As Dark Phoenix, a being who only hungers for carnal sensations, she may be described as concept of Malkuth in the Tree of Life which is associated with the realm of matter and earth and relates to the physical world.. And now as the White Phoenix of the Crown, she is described as Keter, also known as the Crown is the topmost Sephirot, which is described as the attribubutes/emenations through which GOD reveals himself and continuously creates both the physical realm and the chain of higher metaphysical realm.. I think this is what Marvel wants to portray Jean as the WPOTC.. Hope this helped..
Cool,its nice to have you back man. Sadly we are likely to clash a lot more often in a thread involving elder gods, but i honestly look forward to debating with you on those topic :)
- Thanks man.. :)
1. While building a lighthouse, all across the multiverse (i thought it was omniverse but have to check) is impressive, it was not done on a random time. They waited for a special alignment called Interface Alignment to occur, which occurs naturally. It was only when the alignment occured they could project the said lighthouse, its backed by both on panel evidence and bio.
2. Necrom is not just a random host of the phoenix force,he is on his own right a sorcerer supreme, and as such has his own powers, let alone the time he took to do prep. Although he only had the power of anti-phoenix which is a slight portion of Phoenix power, he clearly had his own power set, thats the reason Rachel with 1/2 the phoenix force was clearly struggling against Necrom with a small portion of Phoenix force and had to reduce to plot to finally defeat him.
So given that feat required interface alignment, as well as power of a prep up sorcerer supreme makes it extremely hard to attribute the feat to Phoenix, even made worse given Rachel with 1/2 the phoenix force going all out, managed to only destroy solar system.
- Point taken.. but that doesn't change a fact the feat was a multiversal feat.. it only added more room for debate regarding the matter.. :)
- One must remember that possessing the force means you can actually utilize its full power.. remember when Rachel fought the Shadow King, he said that her inexperience unable her to wield the full power of the force she wields..
I have heard this before, never seen a scan, would you have one (i would prefer an issue number too). Also if i am not wrong its a what if.
- Yes.. I believe it's a What If.. I believe the title was "What If the X-Men Lost Inferno?" What if...? (2nd series) # 6.. Here is the scan..
This is from one of the Excalibur issues and there is a context involved i believe, which sadly i cant recall at the moment. Do you have the issue number, i know i can add context to it, also i recall 2 universe first merged and then it seperated on its own
- Yes.. I believe is was from Excalibur: Weird War III (Marvel Graphic Novel # 66).. From what i remember, the PF merged the two realities because of the mental energies of Herr Xavier's mentally slaughtered mutants evolved into a single consciousness.. Their cries and anguish coxed the PF to merged the two universes and seperated when the cosmic balance was restored..
HOM Wanda's feat was indeed omniversal in nature, and it was stated as omniversal in Die by the Sword 01. The problem is her reality warping feat is all but universal, that also incomplete within a universe, while it did affect the past and the future, it only affected the potential past and the future of 616.
- Yes, it was but that was the warped she did when she created House of M.. During the HoM, we are aware that there were alternate realities which were not affected by the warped and it was isolated in 616, well used to be 616.. But, the same thing cannot be said on her second spell, the spell of "No More Mutants".. When she uttered those words, it just did not only shifted every possible alternate futures of the 616 universe, but it also affected alternate realities as shown in Endangered Species.. There we see alternate realities, and alternate counterparts of Beast figuring out how to undo the spell of "No More Mutants"..
The Chaos Wave however tore apart the omniverse, now that is genuinely an omniversal feat, but Phoenix did nothing in order to stop that though. It was Meggan who first tapped into the power of Earth, then Otherworld and when that power was still not even she tapped into the power of the Beyond, together with all these power she manage to close the rift , once the Chaos Wave was halted the omniverse healed itself.
- No i never had the Chaos Wave in mind.. And you are correct, the PF did nothing to do to stop it and that it was Meagan..
Thats still Phoenix force affecting past and future of mutant race.
- Again, i was referring how it undid the spell of "No More Mutants" which apparently also affected alternate universes..
We are clearly talking about different issue, i was talking more about issues where Phoenix Force destroys its native alternate reality in 2 what ifs. The Living Tribunal instance i have no read and hence cannot comment.
- Oh, sorry.. My bad.. :)
The feat was clearly referred to as universal in the issue as well as bio, hard to argue it was multiversal, not to mention Jean had good help there and she was inside white hot room, where the Phoenix avatar are amped.
- Hmmm.. I never heard that the PF avatars are amped while within the WHR.. Are they like Elder Gods, Demons or Principalities now, who are significantly more powerful while within their realms?
Could you show me one on panel evidence or bio that suggests the universe she held on her hand became 616?
That certainly doesnt look like the case.
Earth 15104 is a potential future of 616 , which formes an alternate dimension.
She did pluck Earth 15104 from its mega structure, which likely was the vast amount of potential futures of 616 as opposed to a whole multiverse. Even then given she is inside a nexus of all reality, and plucked a reality, i dont see how that makes it any more than a universal feat.
Sorry but i am a little confused on what you are trying to say on the () part, because Here Comes Tomorrow wasnt a good future as it was destined to die, it was orphaned by Jean Action and later erased as a potential future because of what Scott did.
- Ok.. Here is the thing.. Jean plucked 15104.. Earth 15104 is only one of the many possible futures of Earth 616.. Now, we see Jean, cutting of the future (pertaining to the reality which is Earth 15104).. Now, since the dire future has been cut off, the possibility of the universe she was holding being Earth 15104 has been eliminated (how can it be the future reality when the future has already been cut off).. That is exactly why Quentin Quire told Jean that she must water it with her hearts blood, meaning she must let Scott, her one true love, go and allow him to be happy with Emma.. that is the only way for the current universe she is holding (616) to have a better future.. Her actions of giving Scott a mental push happened in the prime universe which is 616.. So therefore, the universe she was holding is clearly the prime reality..
Besides, the Phoenix has always been described as multiversal.. As evidenced by this scan..
That certainly isnt a multiversal feat, you got to admit, she is in a nexus of all reality, which clearly gives her access to any reality in the multiverse, then from there she picks one universe, that also unintentionally, even then its all but a potential future of 616, perhaps this picture will help:
All she did was pick one of those branches, manipulated it, and push Scott Summers to take an action that prevent that certain branch or future never happened.
Clearly universal if you ask me.
- Yes, yes i am well aware of that.. The WHR is indeed the Nexus of All Realities, but does that really underweight her feat.. The WPOTC has basically no feats outside the WHR so we cannot justify.. Nor does one can conclude she only control one universe at a time while inside her realm, nor does being in her realm boost her power.. Fact is, she can do basically anything to a certain universe as she wishes.. She held the prime universe in her hand from the rest of the existing realities, who knows the true extent of her powers.. We saw how the PF merged two realities before.. One can only assume of things she can do..
Now this is more of a multiversal feat, post retcon beyonder vs molecule man
- Ah.. Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man.. Can't argue with those two..
Or this weirdest feat from Celestials that appeared quite recently, its multiversal or at the least significantly beyond universal.
- Never seen that before.. Thanks buddy.. :)
yeah.. been really busy and all.. :)
@angryhulks: From what you're telling me this would be a stalemate because Phoenix has both universal and multiversal feats.
Could you point me to a multiversal feat from Phoenix? I honestly havent seen one, and the only universal feat i have seen from Phoenix in 616 reality has been of awareness and nothing more.
we'll there have been a few. There was the creation of an energy matrix by projection a light tower to all existing realities at the same time.. This created an energy matrix, which if abused, can allow someone to compress all existing realities into singularity much like what Necrom tried before.. also, the Living Tribunal itself considered the PF to be multiversal and i remembered Rachel with the power of the PF unknowing merged 2 universes together.. also, as the recent AvX concluded, the PF undid the Scarlet Witch's spell of "No More Mutants" which has been displayed to affected alternate and possible future realities.. Beast even stated during Children's Crusade that Wanda's spell affected the omniverse (debatable, i agree)..
Its only alternate reality version that has anything beyond universal feat, like 2 What IFs and a whole alternate reality Here Comes Tomorrow, and none of those are multiversal either.
On one of those What If's, it was the Living Tribunal which uttered those words.. and we all know that the Living Tribunal is ominiversal, and thus his appearance even in What If's are considered cannons.. plus, the whole HCT thing is cannon, because the WPOTC portrayed there is 616 Jean Grey herself.. and i beg to disagree, but the whole feat done there was clearly multiversal.. Jean took the Earth-15104 reality from the multiverse and cut off its future (meaning the very essence of that alternate reality) making the universe she is holding the prime reality which is 616 (notice how the Phoenix Conciousness is saying that she needs to make a better future.. this means, she needs to do something to the current universe).. many people often point out that Jean only "pushed" Scott to make a better future during that feat, but what many failed to realized is the gravity of what she is doing.. Jean was telekinetically manipulating atoms on a universal scale (this was backed up on the bio in the OHOTMU).. if cutting of a reality from the multiverse and controlling it atom by atom at once is out a multiversal feat, then i don't know what is.. :)
@bronze_surfer: yes.. that is indeed Death.. what i was referring to is that the PF in the improbable conundrum of both life and death.. like as stated here:
Death its personification of mortality.. the PF is the embodiment of these opposing forces.. of both life and death.. and ultimately, of resurrection..
no.. the PF still exist.. the PF is both life and death.. as it has always been described and as Tony Stark described during AvX, the PF was "born" in the void states of being, in that moment in time between the void and creation.. the PF is the source of life and also of death and the prime instigator of rebirth.. no one can truly "erase" it without dire implications and consequences in the universe/multiverse.. imo, what Wanda and Hope erased was the "Phoenix".. to those who doesn't understand the true history of the PF, its true form is a force.. a force of life, death and creation.. it wasn't until Feron coaxed the force to take on the firebird form it is usually depicted today, which is apparently made out of pure energy.. imho, what Wanda and Hope did is to "erase" that manifestation of the Phoenix, nothing more.. the fact is, the PF, or more likely, the "force" itself still exist along side Jean Grey who is its true and rightful owner merged as the White Phoenix of the Crown..