By LimpoyzLoan 95 Comments
Refuting Death Battle is a series where I take many of Death Battle's beloved videos, and refute the sh*t out of them. The point of this is to show that Death Battle shouldn't be treated as a gospel, and make people realise it's not a reliable source for battles.
Yes, I'm doing this.
Mind you, there are TONS of blogs about this, all either declaring the crucifiction of Wiz and Boomstick, or bringing up some good points on the battle and what they did wrong, which was A LOT of the time. As for my personal opinion on the fight itself, I really feel like it could go either way.
I can already hear the comments in the thread:
"JUST LET IT DIE!"
"WHY DID YOU START THIS AGAIN?? LOCK IT!"
But the point of this blog isn't to start this ludicrous battle, but to make a more accessible blog to refute Death Battle's points in their battles.
So why am I doing this? Because it's one of their most popular Death Battle's and the one with the most problems. I just feel I need to get the one with the most problems out of the way. Being both a DBZ and Superman fan, I knew something was wrong the first time I've seen it. Entertaining fight, but crappy stats. So let's get down to it.
About 30 seconds in, they say, "We will acknowledge any official resource for both combatants." Just keep that quote in mind while you read this, and you'll see why.
FIRST MAJOR MISTAKE: Instant Transmission
I was surprised that they got the fact that Instant Transmission is an instantaneous move right. Good for them. However, they stated that it takes time to concentrate in battle. This is only half true.
3:55 Death Battle misinterpreted this as Goku's lack of concentration as the problem.
This was not because he was under pressure – he was trying to lock onto his sons, Trunks and Piccolo, all of whom were likely drained of their ki after having it used by Buu. This is demonstrated by the fact that Gohan - who had dominated Super Buu and even went toe-to-toe with him after he absorbed Gotenks (essentially doubling his power) - was killed by Kid Buu’s attack here. Furthermore, Kid Buu’s attack was exceptionally big, easily capable of ripping Earth apart – this means the amount of ki he was generating was tremendous enough to block out everything else, thus Goku couldn't lock onto any other ki.
And even if that reasoning doesn't hold, this instance should be considered an outlier that at worst was a product of plot-induced stupidity. However, if it's over a large distance he does have trouble concentrating.
Goku uses Instant Transmission in battle rather regularly. He did it to evade Cell’s Kamehameha, used it again to surprise Cell with a Kamehameha of his own, used it to evade Pikkon’s Thunder Flash attack, used it to evade Kid Buu’s blast at the last second:
He’s also seen using Instant Transmission to keep up with Meta-Cooler, Nova Shenron, and even in the canon movie Battle of the Gods to keep up with Bills after losing the Super Saiyan God state. That’s seven examples of him doing Instant Transmission in battle, under severe pressure: 3 of which are in the manga; and five of which are considered to be true canon (Meta-Cooler is in a movie, Nova Shenron is in GT). Furthermore, just like Cell vs Goku, if Goku KNOWS that his opponent is faster than him (More likely than not) Goku WILL use instant transmission in battle. Without a doubt. Some might call it cheap, but hey, I didn't write the manga.
2nd Mistake: Goku's intelligence and Fighting Skill
Death Battle displayed Goku as kind of an idiot, especially in the fight. Mind you, Death Battle stated that he was a genius in martial arts, but forgot to mention Goku's skill with everything else. Goku may be simple minded and innocent in many ways, but when it comes to fighting, Goku is a genius. He quickly finds weaknesses other people fail to see, such as realizing nearly instantly that Frieza couldn't sense ki and using this to his advantage; he frequently copies a move he sees only once (such as the Kamehameha and the solar flare), and if you try a particularly dangerous technique on him once, he will find the flaws in the second time around and avoid it.
And without a question, Goku beats Superman in skill. Now, one would make an argument that Superman knows martial arts as well. That's fine and dandy, but he rarely uses them. Skill-wise, Superman is still outclassed. In a fight, Superman tends to charge into a battle relying on his strength and speed alone (If he's fighting an enemy who is fast) He punches rather clumsily like a boxer rather than like a balanced martial artist, and he doesn't use kicks very often either. Superman actually has a lot of fighting experience, because in Action Comics Issue #761, Superman fights for a thousand years in a demon world. He trained with Mogul as well, and even Batman, but we still don’t see Superman’s fighting style improving that much. Can Superman fight better than we see him doing? Yes! But we don’t see him doing it and we can’t assume just because he was taught different styles that he outclasses a martial artist who uses a huge variety of skills and styles on a constant basis. Even so, if Superman outclasses Goku in all other aspects, this lack of a complex fighting style would not be an issue to the Man of Steel at all.
3rd Mistake: Goku will screw himself over
Let me elaborate. Death Battle stated that Goku would let his enemy power up to the fullest, no matter what. I call bullsh*t.
Goku WILL let his enemies power up to their best, IF HE IS CONFIDENT IN THE OUTCOME. Goku knew he was going to beat Frieza. He had no doubt in his mind. Cell? That was a different story. From the moment he saw Cell, Goku knew he was not going to win. However, he WAS confident that Gohan would beat Cell (Don't ask me how). However, you can see when Goku is unsure of himself. For example, when Vegeta wanted to fight him, Goku knew it was a waste of time, and they didn't want to let Buu out of his shell. Did Goku let him awaken for the sake of having a good fight? Goku wouldn't let Superman just blatantly fly to the sun for the sake of fighting him at his best, he's not stupid. Ignorant, but definitely not stupid. Of course, he wouldn't let Superman fall victim to kryptonite. That'd be too unfair.
So Superman's presentation... Don't really see anything wrong with that, so let's move on to the fight. I know the fight is for show, but it's still something we have to address.
Goku get's crushed by a car at SSJ2... What...? First of all, Goku can sense ki. By definition, every single living thing has ki, so how would that work? What? Did Superman bring that down on him at FTL speeds?
Okay, so long story short, they fight for a while, Goku knocks Superman into the sun, Superman knocks Goku into the center of the Earth, Superman finishes Goku off with an IMP and the Earth is destroyed... yeah...
See, here's another thing that doesn't work, and may be a little biased depending on how you look at it.
The conclusion had both fire their most powerful attacks (Dragon Fist and the IMP) Yet, they only bothered to measure the IMP in terms of power... So why not measure the Dragon Fist. For all we know, the Dragon Fist could have been so powerful that the attacks would have cancelled each other out, and cause both fighters to die... But no, Death Battle got lazy and didn't bother measuring the joules of the Dragon Fist.
Okay, we'll start off with the main mistakes.
Lifting strength doesn't equal striking power.
I cannot stress that enough.
Death Battle always is under the assumption that because you can lift more, you can hit harder. Which is stupid.
Goku hits Frieza, a being who can tank planetary attacks at his lowest form, and repeatedly draws blood from him. So he is way above mountain busting in terms of striking power.
So could Goku destroy a planet by punching it? Possibly
King Kai’s planet was once large and destroyed by Beerus hence why the gravity is so strong
Generally people equate density with durability, but Gravity and density are not related. All we need to know is the mass of the object for gravity purposes, this is because density is not corollary
So the greater the mass the greater the gravity. However, Kaio's planet defies the laws of physics in this regard, much like the rest of Dragon Ball Z, and as such that physical flux is explained by Toriyama as the result of the Mass of the planet previously being far greater. As such the proportionate reality of that statement means either (1) the planet although small in appearance is actually a large planet physically because of the intense gravity OR (2) the density of the planet being compacted arguably does have a bearing on this proof to make up for this physics defying mass flux planet and as such is the same as a large planet. Either way the result is the same the Planet according to Toriyama behaves as it did when it was large despite only being a piece of its former self. However, how density correlates to gravity could only be an educated guess.
In addition, this is a terrestrial planet like Earth as it is also composed of rock and not just gas as such being a large terrestrial planet previously makes it incredibly durable. It is easily more durable than Earth as the planet does not even shake when Goku turns SS3 and when he did so on Earth the planet nearly tore itself apart (same when Super Perfect Cell came back and powered up for that matter)! In addition, Kaio’s planet does not explode when Goku punches out the center, or where the core should be if it has one, that alone shows it is more durable than Namek.
So yeah, in terms of striking power, they're pretty much equal (Both are planetary.)
The video clocked Goku’s speed by his feat of flying across Snake Way on the way to fight Vegeta and Nappa, then compensated by using a gravity formula.
Toriyama was never concerned about being accurate with his speeds and travel times – the only reason Goku took so long was for the plot, allowing all fighters but Gohan and Krillin to die so that there was a reason to continue the story and head to Namek. Even if you want to leave out plot induced stupidity as an excuse, you can still reason that this was done wrong. They didn't clock a definitive speed for Goku, they merely calculated his average speed over a day. Why? Because he started out his trip flying and then had to resort to running, and while it was all non-stop and Goku was putting his best foot forward, he still got tired out and couldn't maintain a constant maximum. This is evident by the fact he has to use a Senzu bean on his return to Earth before fighting Nappa and Vegeta; he was hungry and low on energy after flying and running for a day straight. So Goku’s top speed in the beginning could have been significantly faster than his ending speed. As Goku’s power went up after this, his endurance probably did as well, so he could maintain his highest speeds for a longer time. Since Goku and Superman would just be battling and not having a race across Snake Way, what should count is his immediate top speed, and not his average speed over a very long trip from one part edge of the universe to another (Snake Way spans a quarter of the universe on the map of Other World)
So yeah, if you want to play it like Death Battle:
Then adding the 10x power up when Goku drinks the sacred water, unlocking his natural Oozaru power: 7150 m/s
Then adding the Gravity formula:
7150 x 586 = 4189900 m/s
Then adding the multiplier x50 = 209495000 m/s
Then adding the x2 multiplier =
Then SSJ3 4x multiplier = 1675960000 m/s
Then SSJ4 = 16759600000
Using SSJ4, Goku should be minimally 80x the speed of light. Not bad.
But if we take away Non Canon GT, then Goku would be 8x the speed of light. Thus, Superman is faster than him, and would use instant transmission.
This was just stupid. Here's what's wrong with this:
A. The bomb scene is from an anime filler episode.
B. The bomb is "assumed" to be in megatons. The numbers are so blurry it's hard to look at it. Thus, more assumptions on Death Battle's part.
C. Dr. Gero even admits his calculations were wrong:
Short point, but I'm sure it's plainly obvious Goku could survive a planetary attack.
Using character cores as deciding factor:
Even after using all these flawed numbers, Death Battle claims they are pointless because the deciding factor was how the characters were designed. This is just plain ridiculous – going through all those calculations and then write them off as meaningless. If they were meaningless, they shouldn't have been done in the first place.
Going off the character’s core doesn’t get a definite victor either. Even the reasoning they used was flawed.
"So what happens when you pit a man able to break any limit against a man who has no limits in the first place? Well only one has limits to give at all.”
This is wrong. Superman is NOT limitless. If he was, he would be Superman Prime already – completely invulnerable to everything, even Kryptonite, and he isn’t. Superman nearly died in his battle against Doomsday; he was knocked out by Hawkman with the Glove of Horus. He’s been knocked out by a supernova. A man who is limitless doesn't show these kinds of limits, however amazing those limits are. Superman is also depicted by Death Battle as defeating his opponents with ease – and yet we see him frequently struggling with his opponents and he has even had minor defeats. Superman even admits he is limited and seems a bit envious of Green Lantern for being limited only by his imagination:
Now analyze the line “Goku can break any limit.” Did Wiz even consider what this means? It means Goku, by this logic, is also essentially limitless. If he met his limit and couldn't beat Superman, he would just break that limit too. No matter what happens in the storyline, if Goku needs to defeat his opponent, he always finds a way in the end.
So in essence, if we go by what these characters are meant to be with their respective universes, both characters are limitless at their core. This would mean a tie. This is why you don't go by plot devices to determine a victor for characters from different universes, it just doesn't work.
So basically they defeated their own argument with their own words before they gave the conclusion. Epic fail.
THE EPILOGUE HUUGUEUGUEUGEUU
I have just showed that the Death Battle video - time and time again - used very outdated, vague, incomplete, unreliable and outright wrong methods to determine Goku’s potential. And I’m not even doing research – I remember all of this from watching the show. The manga scans are just for reference.
So, if you are a Superman fan, you should understand the big deal about Goku's underpowered problem. If people used Superman's feats from Smallville Season 1, when he could barely outrun a bullet, and then used some choppy formula to compensate for his speed increase, you'd be pretty mad too. Or someone could abuse Superman Volume 2 #9, when the Man of Steel is knocked out by a 50-megaton nuke. Even base form Goku in the Frieza Saga could brush that off like nothing. Someone could easily grab these instances to underpower Superman so bad that Goku could defeat him without becoming a Super Saiyan.
So, that's all I have to say about this battle. I'm glad I got it out of the way, so I can move on battles that have a series that have clearer FEATS *cough* Akira Toriyama *cough*
My next one will be the second most famous Death Battle:
Link vs Cloud
So yeah, be glad you wasted your time reading this, but I hope you realised something WHILE reading it.