Team wins. Ult Cap is good but not that good.
krauser99's forum posts
Thanks for that scan.
Something I did not "consider" before. If you pay attention as Ult Cap is explaining the details of his plan out loud(lol)(PIS). Notice Ult Hulk is actually "grabbing" a rock while he is down(implying he is not out). And then when he grabs Ult Cap it shows small pieces of flying towards Ult Cap. On the next page Wasp is surprised that he broke the needle..LOL. This is just (since we don't see the rock before it breaks striking the needle) but it appears he was not knocked out. But I think he broke the adam needle tip, where it connects to the glass or plastic portion . I'm surprised I did not notice this before.
Still it does not take away the feat that Ult Cap batted him around, knocked him down(not out) and made him bleed from his nose and mouth(which implies he hurt him).(you can see the dark blood streams coming from Ult Hulk. Still impressive though.
What do you think Jashro?
All in all. I hope they one day do a cross over with Ultimates vs Avengers. Would be awesome, since there power level is very close to one another. Despite the hand books portraying Cap to be Batman level.
I think I've got more backing up my stance than you do yours. The dialogue clearly points to this being how the Hulk wanted the whole thing to play out. Do you really think, considering Bruce's feats, that Hulk wouldn't have been able to put up a far tougher fight, if this plan wasn't his first option? And if the Hulk was going to activate his plan, which is more likely? That he fakes a knockout as quickly as possible, so he can activate his ambush? Or that he lets himself get put into a position to be temporarily KOed by the team, where he then he loses any control over the situation, because he'd have no idea how long he'd be out? Drawing blood isn't always a prerequisite to being 'flash knocked out'.
As for the Ultimate Hulk instance...you can't seriously speculating that Ultimate Hulk was faking? Your speculation should at least have some degree of on-panel evidence behind it. For one, I doubt Ultimate Hulk even had that level of intelligence to do that at this point in his history. I mean - Wasp was able to momentarily distract him by flashing her breasts. He was a dumb brute who couldn't even form proper sentences. For another, what would the purpose of him playing possum be? He's stronger than Cap, he can't be outfought - and he doesn't have a plan. He's just a mindlessly rampaging monster. Throughout the fight, he shows no usage of tactics beyond attacking everything in his path. It's entirely different to the 616 instance, where Hulk was intelligent and clearly had a strategy in motion.
And Ultimate Hulk being able to grab the needle aside was because he managed to regain consciousness in time - his NO! was in big letters, exemplifying the shock the character had when he saw the needle. He didn't know what it was, but he definitely knew it was bad, and so he reacted naturally. If you saw someone getting ready to a stick a needle into you just as you woke up - wouldn't you immediately stop him? And break the needle too? Frankly, considering Ultimate Hulk's intelligence as well as the context, I can't think of a single motive why he would even fake getting stunned?
I think at this point we're already derailing the thread, but my argument still stands. The two showings are two very different situations, and hardly comparable to boot. There's the physicals gap (it's smaller for Ultimate Cap and Hulk), the scenario (Ultimate Hulk didn't have a plan) and the execution (Ultimate Hulk was - beyond any doubt - actually stunned by Ult Cap's raw strength).
There very similar feats. Speculation aside. Derailing is fine as long as it is civil...friend. No worries. Unless you have a actual statement that he played possum and pretended to be knocked out. Not that it couldn't happen "Veshark". It can. But speculation is irrelevant. Your point is not that strong. Considering he was dazed and bloodied by Cap's "gangsta" punch.
It's not overly reaching(speculation) that he waited for Ult Cap to get close especially once he over heard it all. Even a dumb brute can come up with that.
You think your right.
I think I'm right. Whichever poster leads to his own truth is his own.
Mm, you're correct about the green blood, I didn't catch it last time because I didn't enlarge the scan. It looked like spit at first glance. But regardless of that, the feat still isn't what you claimed it to be. You touted it as being an instance of 616 Cap temporarily downing Hulk, in a similar fashion to his Ultimate counterpart. 'Downing' implying that he was able to stun Bruce in the same way that Ultimate Cap did. But just reading these few pages alone, that doesn't appear to be the case.
Sure, you could argue that Hulk did get briefly knocked out, you're right - that type of speculation goes both ways. But what makes me think that my argument has more merit is the dialogue. Read the next two pages I posted. Cap says, "We needed bait", to which Hulk replies "Funny. That's the same plan I'm using on you." At which point Steve realizes that this was Hulk's plan all along - to get them to lower their guard and be herded into one position, allowing them to be ambushed by Hulk's teammates. Cap even realizes this when he shouts, "Avengers, scramble! Just move, we're exactly where he--".
So there's more evidence pointing to the Hulk deliberately using himself as bait, drawing all the attention to himself. Then he pretends to get incapacitated, and the Avengers think that they can bring him in. At which point he springs his trap. It wasn't accidental, and it wasn't a backup plan. There's more indication that this was the idea all along - Hulk was executing an ambush. Cap confirms this when he says, "We're exactly where he (wanted us to be)".
As for the Thunderball instance, the first thing to note here is that the Wrecking Crew member is nowhere on the level of Modern Hulk's durability. That alone already makes it more believable, and we've seen Cap having the striking power to injure brutes before. This instance is a lot more feasible also because a) It's Thunderball, and b) It was a sucker punch. I still find it a tad questionable, and you can bring up Hawkeye's dialogue as proof that the writer is aware of Thunderball's capabilities....but this is Chuck Austen we're talking about. Disregard for established continuity is practically his M.O.
All in all, my point still remains that Ultimate Cap (in the circumstances of the fight from Ultimates #5) being able to temporarily stun Ultimate Hulk is a feasible feat. Whereas instances of 616-Cap being able to do the same to 616-Hulk shouldn't be possible.
616 Cap stunning 616 Hulk was feasible to the point that he made him bleed(feasible because he was hurt from the others). You have a point that Hulk planned a "trap" but you don't have real strong precedence, that he was playing possum and not flash knocked out. Only that Hulk put them in a position where he wanted them. The fact remains that he seemed dazed and bloodied from Cap. Which the feat still matches the ult Cap one.
Any way's I to can speculate that Ult Hulk was not "KO'ed" since he seemed to understand Ult Cap plan to use a needle and stick it to him. Because once Ult Cap got close to him(which helped ult hulk) he answered him. No! And then on the next page. "Get that thing away"gray hulk referencing the needle. As Jan states outloud "he broke the needle". As if he was not out but had faked it and heard everything and gray hulk knew exactly what to do about the needle and hulk. Because he heard the whole thing.(All speculation like yours)
But that's just speculation, without it actually saying it. The feats are still very similar despite speculation and even with speculation, as I have shown they are still similar. They both were downed and bloodied.
As for the Thunderball comment. My point was that the writer knew specifically his power level at least that could be said for that scan. The statement reference just "seals" it.
Actually the green blood is "there" on the panel where Steve punches him. The green blood is coming out of from his mouth. Playing possum is one thing but being dazed and putting his hand over his head after Beasts hits him and Steve having him spout out green blood is quite the other. Plus I love the next scenes where Steve's plan B comes in, as his B team, points at him there guns to teloport them to the negative zone, if they don't stand down. Which then Hulk reverted to Banner and stood down to listen to Steve. As Steve also listened to him. But it doesn't have to be that he pretended to be knocked out to to be saved by his plan. Just lose to be saved by his plan, would work as well if you think about it. That type of speculation works both ways.
Also here is "another" feat where Steve makes a top brick spout out blood and it is rather modern as in not volume one. I agree with you that writers make power level mistakes when they don't know about the other character but this one did seem to know. As this particular writer had Hawkeye himself warn the Super Soldier, that he should be aware that Thunderball can withstand shots from Thor's hammer. As Cap tells him....he knows. Steve again with another big Brick, has Thunderball spout out blood strike(non shield) and see stars. He downs him briefly.
. For one, Fallen Son notwithstanding, most of Cap's showings of him hurting the Hulk comes from older comics,
Fallen Son "over did it".
This one is a bit more modern with better circumstances. Commander Steve Rogers downs Hulk briefly and makes him bleed. Only after Nova, valkarie, WMachine beast etct attack him. Kind of similar to what Ult Cap did to Ult Grey Hulk.
Cap never put Hulk down.
The problem with trying to use the Nuke scans is, Nuke is stronger than MC seeing that Ultimate Captain America is stronger than 616 Steve and MC, and Nuke's SSS and cybernetics put him above that of Ultimate Captain America.
Nuke also used pinpoint strikes to hit in very vulnerable areas, something Chief can't do to a foe that is faster, stronger and more skilled than him.
I really don't see how the Nuke scans apply for a possibility for MC seeing that he's not on par in stats or skill as Nuke.
Ult Cap did but him down briefly. But there were circumstances.