Batman vs Cassandra Cain; Can she do it?

Fight!

The-Bat-Above-All

VS

The her

SETTING:

Pre New 52 for both (obviously)

Abandoned factory, with equal parts lightened and dark, two-leveled with several large crates scattered throughout, with perimeter landing between the ground and second floor but no ceiling. Several "gargoyles" between perimeter landing and the second floor ceiling.

Battle will not leave the factory.

MORALS:

Morals on; Cassandra is not looking to kill, but will fight as hard as it takes to beat Bruce.

Both are looking to incapacitate or force the other to submit by any means, within character. (See above line).

No outside help, including the bat swarm. Strictly one-on-one.

Fight may shift between hand-to-hand and Arkham-esque predator (I dont know if theyll think predator combat will be effective, but if you can argue for it so be it).

GEAR AND PREP:

All canon knowledge of and experience with each other remains.

No prep for either combatant (Seriously, giving one character prep is stupid and counterproductive).

Standard gear for both; anything shown to be kept on hand on a regular basis. (Including sonics and exploding projectiles plus batarangs, grapple guns, etc).

Encounter begins with both characters 30 feet away from each other, both in dark areas.

Can Cassie beat Batman? Will the Dark Knight prove to be the best Bat there is? Scans are crucial, of course. And explanations are mandatory, no "...curbstomps". Thats childish. Any plausible pysche manpulation is welcome. I did check the forum for a one-on-one battle like this. I didnt see one but in the likelyhood that it exists, link and lock me. Have at it!!!

EDIT: Cassandra can talk but still has semi-pre-cognition

143 Comments
143 Comments
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Posted by Ferro Vida

I think she can do it.

Posted by XImpossibruX

Well I don't think Cass could since her body hasn't matured fully yet, and reached her prime physical state like Batman has. So I think Batman would take this one.

Edited by BringnIt

I believe with gear and all that, Bruce should take her.

Posted by Kinasin_

She'll lose. Batman always outclassed her, or matched her.

Posted by Ferro Vida
@Kinasin_ said:

She'll lose. Batman always outclassed her, or matched her.

... 
 
Forgive my ABC logic, but Deathstroke stated that the only way to beat her is to get inside her head. Deathstroke having beaten Bruce on a couple of occasions.
Posted by BringnIt

@Ferro Vida wasn't he speaking strictly H2H?

Posted by Ferro Vida
@BringnIt: Slade is rarely strictly H2H
Edited by Kinasin_

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_ said:

She'll lose. Batman always outclassed her, or matched her.

... Forgive my ABC logic, but Deathstroke stated that the only way to beat her is to get inside her head. Deathstroke having beaten Bruce on a couple of occasions.

Batman has taken out Deathstroke on a couple occasions as well. Also what Deathstroke states is contradicted by what Bruce actually showed. He always smacked her down, and when they did kind of go after each other seriously once, he kept up with her easily, although I believe both of them were drugged.

Posted by Kinasin_

Also when DS and Batman fought the first time Deathstroke was severely messed up and even comments that Batman is a beast.

Posted by Ferro Vida
@Kinasin_: Care to show scans of that? I've never seen Slade have lose to him, except when he was depowered.
Posted by Kinasin_

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_: Care to show scans of that? I've never seen Slade have lose to him, except when he was depowered.

The other time Batman snuck up on him, and knocked him out. It wasn't really fair, but you going off of something slade stated doesn't really amount to evidence.

Edited by Kinasin_

As a result of his recent battle with Batman, Slade is shown patching up his wounds and gives Batman more credit/respect then he has any other fighter (even to this day) mentioning that Bruce is the best fighter he's ever fought. On top of that, Slade mentions how he'd hate to fight Batman if his physical stats hadn't been enhanced and that he'd be feeling the pain for days despite his healing factor. Even today, no other fighter has managed to do this much damage against Deathstroke.

Posted by Ferro Vida
@Kinasin_ said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_: Care to show scans of that? I've never seen Slade have lose to him, except when he was depowered.

The other time Batman snuck up on him, and knocked him out. It wasn't really fair, but you going off of something slade stated doesn't really amount to evidence.

Someone as cocky as Slade saying something like that without meaning it? That seems unlikely to me.
Posted by Kinasin_

Further showing how badly injuried Deathstroke was in his battle with Batman, we see Slade being beaten up by a man (who comments on his injures) with his hands immobilized (who later gets free) and has to be saved by outside interference

Edited by Kinasin_

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_ said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_: Care to show scans of that? I've never seen Slade have lose to him, except when he was depowered.

The other time Batman snuck up on him, and knocked him out. It wasn't really fair, but you going off of something slade stated doesn't really amount to evidence.

Someone as cocky as Slade saying something like that without meaning it? That seems unlikely to me.

Look what he said about Batman. Regardless of what he says, by feats Batman has stomped on Cassandra or matched her. He also smashed her father David Cain into the ground as well.

Posted by Ferro Vida
@Kinasin_: First off, blondie obviously has some skill. Second, I didn't say Batman didn't hurt Slade. But Slade still won.
Posted by KnightRise

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_ said:

She'll lose. Batman always outclassed her, or matched her.

... Forgive my ABC logic, but Deathstroke stated that the only way to beat her is to get inside her head. Deathstroke having beaten Bruce on a couple of occasions.

Thats what I was thinking. Batman knows Cassie, her history, and all of her flaws. He loves her and she loves him. Thats why I think he has an advantage if he can manipulate her. She knows a lot on him, but is she as adept at pyche manpulation?

Posted by Ferro Vida
@Kinasin_ said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_ said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_: Care to show scans of that? I've never seen Slade have lose to him, except when he was depowered.

The other time Batman snuck up on him, and knocked him out. It wasn't really fair, but you going off of something slade stated doesn't really amount to evidence.

Someone as cocky as Slade saying something like that without meaning it? That seems unlikely to me.

Look what he said about Batman. Regardless of what he says by feats Batman has stomped on Cassandra or matched her. He also smashed her father David Cain into the ground as well.

I haven't actually seen a lot of good fighting feats from Cain. 
 
@KnightRise said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_ said:

She'll lose. Batman always outclassed her, or matched her.

... Forgive my ABC logic, but Deathstroke stated that the only way to beat her is to get inside her head. Deathstroke having beaten Bruce on a couple of occasions.

Thats what I was thinking. Batman knows Cassie, her history, and all of her flaws. He loves her and she loves him. Thats why I think he has an advantage if he can manipulate her. She knows a lot on him, but is she as adept at pyche manpulation?

Would she let herself be manipulated when she is fighting as hard as she can to win?
Posted by Kinasin_

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_ said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_ said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_: Care to show scans of that? I've never seen Slade have lose to him, except when he was depowered.

The other time Batman snuck up on him, and knocked him out. It wasn't really fair, but you going off of something slade stated doesn't really amount to evidence.

Someone as cocky as Slade saying something like that without meaning it? That seems unlikely to me.

Look what he said about Batman. Regardless of what he says by feats Batman has stomped on Cassandra or matched her. He also smashed her father David Cain into the ground as well.

I haven't actually seen a lot of good fighting feats from Cain.

David Cain invented the body reading technique...

Posted by KnightRise

@Ferro Vida: True

Posted by Ferro Vida
@Kinasin_: Does he have any on-panel feats?
Posted by jashro44

@Ferro Vida: I recall morpheus uploading a few feats for david cain in this thread.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/connor-hawke-vs-david-cain/660580/

Edited by Kinasin_

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_: Does he have any on-panel feats?

He bruised up Batman when they fought, but here's what he can do while being crippled.

Bruce tracks Cain down, and puts him in the hospital (Bruce being beyond furious with Cain due to what Cain did to Cass).

Cain bruised Bruce up in the fight, leaving visible wounds that later shocked Cass.

So here's Cain. In the hospital. In essentially a body cast, due to having his bones broken. He also has a catheter (important for later), as well as is completely hopped up on drugs (noted in the comic).

He gets visitors. Visitors who want him dead.

Cain asks the first guy in for a drink in his native language, noting that he knows how to do that in pretty much every language.

That? That's as stupid as waving a finger in Shiva's face.

Bang.

Bang. Bang.

All that, hopped up, multiple broken bones (including in his arms), partially restrained, with a catheter. And he's having fun, grinning like a fool the whole time. It's effortless for him.

Posted by Kinasin_

So David Cain is in prison with a 10 million dollar bounty on his head. He has stopped eating, hasn't had anything in 3 days - he wants to die, because it's easier to die than to face his daughter. Deadshot comes to kill him as he's being transfered, while Batman intervenes.

What follows are two comics of utter madness as Deadshot tries to kill Cain, Cain tries to die, and Batman tries to keep Cain alive. Cain, cuffed and starved, falls multiple stories, smashes through a bathroom wall headfirst (right through the porcelain tiles), gets caught in explosions (mostly out of them), gets beat up more, etc.

Batman gets cut off from him, and Cain ends up face to eyepiece with Deadshot (who he once taught).

Deadshot tosses Cain a gun. Cain refuses to pick it up. Deadshot shoots Cain in the shoulder. Cain still refuses. Deadshot then makes a really, really dumb mistake, reminding Cain he might have something worth living for.

Exhausted, beaten, battered, cuffed, and shot, Cain still completely overwhelms him, shifting past his gunfire with a headbutt, crushing him in hand to hand, dodging his shots, then shooting both of Deadshot's arms and putting a bullet right next to his heart, later revealed to have been perfectly placed to lay Deadshot up for a long, long time but not kill him.

Posted by Ferro Vida
@Kinasin_: Thank you for providing scans. No further questions.
Posted by Ferro Vida
@jashro44: Thanks!
Posted by jashro44

@Ferro Vida: No problem.

Posted by Picard

No, I think that she is overrated. Her skills are formidable, but physically Batman should outclass her by a lot. Without PIS I don't see how it can happen.

Posted by Oluf_Von_Host_Museum
@Kinasin_ said:

David Cain invented the body reading technique...

Moderator
Posted by stonerthps

If this takes place in a comic outside batman's comic I'll give it to Cassandra. If God fought batman in batman's comic he would lose.

Posted by difficlus

@Kinasin_ said:

She'll lose. Batman always outclassed her, or matched her.

Really? Some scans of that please...

Posted by Lady_Liberty

Does Batman have better speed feats then she does?

I still remember the scans where she moved faster then a bullet.

Posted by 202122

Batman probably wins with his gear but Cassandra Cain outclasses him in H2H (only by a bit though)

Posted by Cochise

Batman wins.

-With full gear, all he has to do is drop some smoke bombs and that will negate her body reading. While both have the ability to fight blind, without her body reading Cassandra's effectiveness is SEVERELY reduced - see how easily Batman dispatched her in a sparring session when she didn't have body reading, and that was in her own series.

-Deathstroke's statement about the only way to beat Cassandra is by getting in her head seems just like that - a statement, meant to segue into him revealing how he DID get into her head with the drugs. Meanwhile, Cassandra has also noted that Deathstroke is stronger and faster than her, and that he toys with her. This was also in her own series. Cassandra has never put the hurting on Deathstroke the way Batman did.

-Shiva has beaten Batgirl before without getting in her head. And Shiva has never been able to beat Batman, and in fact has lost to him.

-Batman is more skilled in H2H. This was demonstrated when Cassandra lost her body reading and her ability dropped off precipitously. She had to go to Batman for remedial training who noted that her defense was poor. Plus her amount of formal training doesn't match up to Batman's. She primarily trained with one person, David Cain, and for most of those years she was a child, she left before she hit her prime. Batman traveled the world for years learning from every master under the sun, at an age where he could actually do more training and it was more relevant.

-Batman's standard gear is superior to Cassandra's. I don't think she's ever been shown to have things like body armor, sonic grenades, acid, explosives, night vision goggles, etc. on her.

Cassandra is very good but not quite on the level of Batman, but hey, damn few are.

Posted by nick_hero22

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_: Care to show scans of that? I've never seen Slade have lose to him, except when he was depowered.

I don't think Deathstroke was depowered in that fight from what I heard.

Posted by Cochise

@Kinasin_ said:

Those scans of Deadshot jobbing make my eyes hurt... :) Fact is Deadshot has far better marksmanship feats than Cain, to see him lose a gun battle like that is a shame. As is his completely OOC dialogue.

Posted by Ferro Vida
@nick_hero22 said:

@Ferro Vida said:

@Kinasin_: Care to show scans of that? I've never seen Slade have lose to him, except when he was depowered.

I don't think Deathstroke was depowered in that fight from what I heard.

Was he wearing blue and blue instead of blue and orange? I believe he was depowered if he was.
Posted by ReVamp

@Ferro Vida said:

Was he wearing blue and blue instead of blue and orange? I believe he was depowered if he was.

From?

Posted by Ferro Vida
@ReVamp said:

@Ferro Vida said:

Was he wearing blue and blue instead of blue and orange? I believe he was depowered if he was.

From?

Not a clue. This is what I was told in a Nightwing/Deathstroke thread by Gambler and others.
Posted by ReVamp

@Ferro Vida said:

@ReVamp said:

@Ferro Vida said:

Was he wearing blue and blue instead of blue and orange? I believe he was depowered if he was.

From?

Not a clue. This is what I was told in a Nightwing/Deathstroke thread by Gambler and others.

Nightwing caught Stroke in a moment where he was bragging and laid some blows as quick as he could. Slade soon shook it off unharmed. Not sure why it would imply he'd be depowered, its hardly a feat.

Posted by Saren

I don't know the specifics of Slade's status when he was wearing the blue and blue, but in that fight with Nightwing Dick says that Slade could beat him easily by virtue of being a metahuman. Doesn't sound like he was depowered, or at least it doesn't sound like Dick knew that if it was indeed the case.

Moderator
Posted by Morpheus_
Slade was not depowered while wearing the black and blue costume, merely rejuvenated and amnesiac.
Moderator
Posted by ReVamp

@Morpheus_ said:

Slade was not depowered while wearing the black and blue costume, merely rejuvenated and amnesiac.

Thought so. We had this conversation once, IIRC.

Posted by KnightRise

@Picard said:

No, I think that she is overrated. Her skills are formidable, but physically Batman should outclass her by a lot. Without PIS I don't see how it can happen.

Actually, I'm inviting some PIS. It happens in comics all the time, if its plausible and in the rules I set go for it :)

Posted by KnightRise

@Cochise: Well I dont see Cassie just waiting prone in the smoke. Batman does have superior standard gear, though.

Posted by Uno_Oscuro

I think if it is straight hand to hand, then Cassandra would take it, but if Bruce happened to have the right gear on him at the time of the fight, and the environment was ripe for his using, Bruce would win. I know it says no prep, but of course with prep Bruce would also win.

Edited by ImmortalOne

Batman knows Cass more than Cass knows him, so he wins.

Posted by TDK_1997

I don't think she can take him.

Posted by nickzambuto

Obviously if Bruce goes toe to toe with her he'll lose.

But Batman wouldn't do that. I honestly believe that, with gadgets and stealth, he can take her down.

Posted by KnightRise

@nickzambuto said:

Obviously if Bruce goes toe to toe with her he'll lose.

But Batman wouldn't do that. I honestly believe that, with gadgets and stealth, he can take her down.

Prove it, Bruce's showings vs Cassandra's showings. How would Bruce fare against the body reading technique?

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