kenshiroo's forum posts

#1 Posted by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio
@CapitolPunishment said:
@tron_bonne said:
@Chaos Prime said:

Not read all the posts but some of the arguments are that Cyttorak is all powerful because of the power he gave to Juggs.. 
Well yes that is a great feat but then wot about the Galactus Engine?  That Beast was taking down abstracts & celestials.. 

The Galactus Engine should be a moot argument considering that Death defeated it and sucked the entire Cancerverse into Oblivion (non-existent). However, apparently, Oblivion/Death could not obliterate Juggernaut so how suppose is Death or Oblivion able to obliterate Cyttorak. Let alone, a Galactus Engine being able to defeat something that can not be obliterated. 
It was already shown to you in this thread that Oblivion simply killed the Juggernaut, toyed around with his soul, put him back together and spit him back out simply for his own amusement The Galactus engine or anything of a high stature from the Cancerverse would have Killed The Juggernaut as well. You got owned in this thread along time ago, why are to still clinging to it as if you have proven any points thus far?
 
 

It was not pointed in any panel this “ Oblivion simply killed the Juggernaut, toyed around with his soul, put him back together and spit him back out simply for his own amusement

It is wrong , in the original arc, Oblivion was unable to kill the Juggernaut, it just considered him a kind of "bacteria" because it could not get rid of him, Oblivion just proposed Juggernaut to take his memories of spells in change to back him to his dimension. Oblivion just aged him because it could not destroy the Juggernaut, otherwise it would have not proposed a human deal with Cain .

On the other scan Cain said he died in a metaphorical sense because he was aged and was indefinitely floating within Oblivion’s dimension without any purpose and due Oblivion could not destroy him then it proposed him a deal to return him to Earth in exchange for his memories of spells.

#2 Edited by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio

@kenshiroo said:

@Prince CortSether said:

@Chaos Prime said:

Not read all the posts but some of the arguments are that Cyttorak is all powerful because of the power he gave to Juggs.. 
Well yes that is a great feat but then wot about the Galactus Engine?  That Beast was taking down abstracts & celestials.. 

Kenshiroo refuses to acknowledge the Galactus Engine and anything shown in Thanos Imperative because it completely wrecks him when he says Cyttorak has greater feats than Shuma.

I suggest you calm down and wait for my rebuttal of your post, there you will get your response.

*Yawn* I think you're the only one here desperate enough to try and get people to believe your Cyttorak claims. 
boy, you are so bad that you're assuming desperately a lot of false things and nonsense about me, stop being silly and don't trolling me.
#3 Posted by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
@Chaos Prime said:
Not read all the posts but some of the arguments are that Cyttorak is all powerful because of the power he gave to Juggs.. 
Well yes that is a great feat but then wot about the Galactus Engine?  That Beast was taking down abstracts & celestials.. 
Kenshiroo refuses to acknowledge the Galactus Engine and anything shown in Thanos Imperative because it completely wrecks him when he says Cyttorak has greater feats than Shuma.

I suggest you calm down and wait for my rebuttal of your post, there you will get your response.

#4 Posted by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
@kenshiroo said:
@Prince CortSether said:
@kenshiroo said:
@Prince CortSether said:
@kenshiroo: I already stomped you. Save yourself the embarrassment by just leaving the thread alone, lest you want to be laughed at again. Besides, we all know that your rebuttal is going to be 95% of your own assumptions and a flawed history of Marvel Universe, rather than evidence from actual panels.
 

No matter how long is your gross post because are 132 pages of text with your blatantly new flawed, twisted and false arguments totally questionable, very detachable and discreditable again. My fiercely rebuttal of your post will wait because I don’t have time for the Vine in these moments but prepare youself I will debunk your moribund last post, soon. ; )

Uh huh, yeah. You're just digging yourself into a deeper hole the more you fill up the page with your nonsense.
 Save your fear and grow up boy, this is a forum battle for debate and it will resolve in this way.
Unfortunately you don't know how to debate. You've already shown this.
  again , save your fear and wait for my rebuttal of your post.
#5 Posted by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
@kenshiroo said:
@Prince CortSether said:
@kenshiroo: I already stomped you. Save yourself the embarrassment by just leaving the thread alone, lest you want to be laughed at again. Besides, we all know that your rebuttal is going to be 95% of your own assumptions and a flawed history of Marvel Universe, rather than evidence from actual panels.
 

No matter how long is your gross post because are 132 pages of text with your blatantly new flawed, twisted and false arguments totally questionable, very detachable and discreditable again. My fiercely rebuttal of your post will wait because I don’t have time for the Vine in these moments but prepare youself I will debunk your moribund last post, soon. ; )

Uh huh, yeah. You're just digging yourself into a deeper hole the more you fill up the page with your nonsense.
 
Save your fear and grow up boy, this is a forum battle for debate and it will resolve in this way.
#6 Posted by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
@kenshiroo: I already stomped you. Save yourself the embarrassment by just leaving the thread alone, lest you want to be laughed at again. Besides, we all know that your rebuttal is going to be 95% of your own assumptions and a flawed history of Marvel Universe, rather than evidence from actual panels.
 

No matter how long is your gross post because are 132 pages of text with your blatantly new flawed, twisted and false arguments totally questionable, very detachable and discreditable again. My fiercely rebuttal of your post will wait because I don’t have time for the Vine in these moments but prepare youself I will debunk your moribund last post, soon. ; )

#7 Edited by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:

@Boobster said:

@Prince CortSether said:
@CapitolPunishment said:
@Prince CortSether: Nothing has changed,, Shuma-Gorath still stomps.
I bumped it only to keep it close in sight. My next post debunking Kenshiroo's fantasy is coming really soon.
WTF, your "opposite" seems to have fun trolling you and calls me and CapitolPunishment his low life friends ?
Yeah, it's obviously Kenshiroo on another account acting bitter.
@Prince CortSether said:

Alrighty. I've already won this debate, but to entertain Kenshiroo, as I'm sure he's just one with not much to do other than dream about  Juggernaut's buff bod, I'll respond to his agonizingly long post.  I've left out his scans in my response because quoting the scans would take up at least 100 pages and just make everything a jumbled mess. If you wish to go to look at his scans, just open up his argument in a separate window or something.
 
There will never be a final rebuttal from you if it concerns your buddies Cyttorak or Juggernaut. But let us get a few things straight. Firstly, just because one has a different opinion from another doesn't mean he is trolling (at that particular moment). Considering I started this thread many months ago and have provided much of the discussion within this thread, I am not at all trolling - especially considering that with the evidence provided more people here have come to support Shuma-Gorath than Cyttorak. Secondly, in order for my argument to have been destroyed you would have had to make it so I would have absolutely no counter to your claims. But that is not the case. You see, 98% of the evidence you post for Cyttorak is not evidence at all. Rather, it's unofficial opinion used with hyperbolic evidence to try and increase mediocre feats to that of something extraordinary. Now that that's out of the way, let's get started. 

 

Wow, do try to disguise your embarrassment of losing was absolutely worthless for you, already all reasonable people on the Vine are noticed you’ve lost this debate long before and thus, all your credibility as a debater was dumped down into the drain, so due this you was pissing me off. So is pretty easy to see how in your last post you’ve boasted of distorting and mixing a whole lot of stuff evidenced by the simple fact that your flawed argument contradicts completely each of very well distinct Marvel's definitions about Omniverse, Magical Dimensions, Outer Planes, Cosmos, Extradimensional, Multiverse and a singles Universes, like the mainstream Marvel Universe 616 or Earth 616. Second is quite evident how you distort the panels at your convenience by expressing flawed and incoherent interpretations handled it towards the opposite direction it was intended to be read correctly the panels, not mention it was evidenced how you merely responds to my explanations in the same twisted way and with simple disagreement opinions. All this reflects you awfully flawed perspective of grasping the context of the scans that you posted and your inability to debunk my arguments as well.

Besides, you obviously by incurring in a whole lot of blatant hypocrisy, all sorts of slanders out of context of this debate and even create multiple accounts in collusion with others kid-trolls to try (very childishly) to defame and trolling me in this and other threads with false accusations only reveals, pitifully, your mediocrity attitude to debate, is as if everything you did it in this is reflecting just your mental derangement. Not mention how desperate, traumatized and silly you do appear yourself assuming all sorts of hypocritical attitudes as result of your extreme degree of frustration and discomfort as well in your evident failure to debunk my arguments based on Cyttorak’s panel evidences and Marvel’s authorities statements about his superiority over Shuma.

Maybe I will take the task to correct all your post which blatantly stripes in most profound ignorance and awful misrepresentation about comic panels. It would take some long time due to my strong work commitments and others priorities I do have to attend in these moments, but I will entertain me, at the extent of my time, by debunking your evident and simple bunch of flawed and false points in order to clear some definitive points for the readers.  ^___^

#8 Edited by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio
@lord_oraculous016 said:

as much as you dislike the idea that all of your assumptions with Cyttoraks are all incorrect, that is just the whole truth my good man..                                                          

My explanations have already been proven with panels evidences on page 5 of this thread, for the rest, you should consider for yourself.
 

@lord_oraculous016

said:

no he does not.. there is no such feat or description ever shown in canon comics that he is.. Cyttorak does not represent the concept of good and evil.. nor does he is an abstract.. he is just a A GOD BANISHED FROM EARTH EONS AGO.. that is the one proven fact.. titles are just tiltes.. 
 

Everything about abstract condition of Cyttorak was shown in this thread on page 5, there are the panels evidences and all the explanations about this by Lance Bastro and mine. It is not necessary to repeat Cyttorak is a magical abstract being over and over again. Either way, the simple answer to deny and ignore the facts does not help you at all to refute what we have explained with panel evidences, much less to prove something that goes beyond your mere opinion of disagreement.
 

@lord_oraculous016

said:

i am very much aware of what is the definition of an abstract.. and no.. Cyttorak for intents and purposes does not represent GOOD and EVIL.. much more CREATION and DESTRUCTION, which is already established by Marvel itself to be personified by the Phoenix Force..  Cyttorak does not poses any immediate threat to the Marvel Continuity..  no one of the great forces of the universe seem to even care about him.. the Watcher doesn't even spare him a time.. Cyttorak doesn't even compare to the great power of the universe.. 
 

Cyttorak represents Creation and DESRUCTION by Marvel. Pretending to ignore the fact which Cyttorak posed a threat to the universe 616, when D'Spayre stole a portion of the energies of Cyttorak (turning himself into an Omnipotent Reality Warper) to control the very fabric of the Universe 616, in which he opened the gateway to Oblivion on Earth, on the one hand , also the fact a fraction of Cyttorak energies caused the Void Stage or Entropy of an unearthly physical Universe (destroyed the very fabric of the space of time of Trion Universe by ripping a growing hole), most impressive than Universe Earth 616, and which is ruled and is oneself with the very powerful Trion Gods (creators of the powerful Triple Evil capable of nearly infinite feats), don’t allow you to refute that Cyttorak is a magical abstract being who represents the supreme idea of ​​ the Outer Void (in its destructive aspect) and is above all the physical laws which govern matter and therefore all the abstract cosmic entities that rule those physical universes. The Cyttorak’s power used or well-taken in small fractions of his limitless magical energy through or via his avatar (The Juggernaut) by itself it was enough to do any destruction on a Universal scale and it have proved his power is more than a simple threat to the physical Universe 616 and all its abstract cosmic entities altogether. In addition, the Watchers are cosmic abstract beings who don’t have any idea what is Cyttorak because he is a magical abstract being from another dimension (extradimensional origin) different than Earth 616 and which is absolutely governed by magic and totally different from all the physical alternate dimensions or universes from Earth 616 and others physical universes as well (The Multiverse), so he can not be understood by them, only be associated vaguely to the idea of ​​ what is known as a god, demon or alien in those lower planes or physical universes .

@lord_oraculous016 said:

Do you have any proof of what you are saying..

It was already pointed on page 5.
 

@lord_oraculous016

said:

the Crimson Cosmos is one of the many dimensions adjacent to that of the Earth's.. the Living Tribunal has jurisdiction over all these planes as shown, that he has jurisdiction over the Splinter Realms which is even farther that the Crimson Cosmos..    

Wrong, The Outer Planes are magical dimensions which include a host of physical representations of a particular moral or ethical alignment in which the abstract mystical entity that dwells there embodies the traits of those ideas related to that alignment. The Outer Planes are dimensions magical in origin unconcerned and unrelated to the Earth 616. Living tribunal has jurisdiction only in those universes/dimensions which are physical in origin and so where there are hierarchies of abstract cosmic entities, however, the Outer Planes like Cyttorak, there no exist abstract cosmic entities because they are ruled 100% by magic of the abstract magical being which is oneself with that dimension and is extradimensional in origin. The Inners Planes are directly connected to the Earth 616’s dimension and the Splinter realms are realms that are connected to the Underworlds of Earth's dimension. The Outer Planes are not connected with the Earth 616's dimension except when the extradimensional entity wants in its attempt to prey it, conquer or destroy it, as Cyttorak does through his avatar, the Juggernaut. Cyttorak's avatar proved to be the strongest avatar of the Principalities (Wager of the Octessence).

According to Official FAQ of Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe ( http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/index.html ) the definition of each groups of magical dimension:
 
1) The Inners Planes of Pantheon of Gods (Elders Gods, Skyfathers, etc) related with Earth 616’s dimension origins, are dimensions composed of the same basic elemental components (earth, air, fire, water) that make up the physical planes and obey of the same physical laws of Earth’s dimension because they all were formed with materials from the Earthly plane.

 

2) The Outers Planes are magical dimensions where the laws of the physical world fall away, revealing a landscape of colorful abstractions. All the material in these dimensions are composed of mystic radiant essences. Unlike of the Inner Planes, the residents of the Outer Planes are not connected to or concerned with what happens in Earth 616’s dimension or the mainstream Marvel Universe.

Cyttorak is located here:

3) Splinters Realms are different branched planes shattered from a single massive plane and are connected to Earth 616’s underworlds. In these dimensions, the Earth’s physical laws often do not apply; there is no gravity as we know it, time moves in different ways and are ruled by a myriad of warring mystic entities (Lords of Splinter Realms) who seek to expand their territories.

Source:
http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/mdapp.htm

Having said differential means about each classification of magical dimensions, the Outer Planes are extradimensional origin:

Extradimensional

“(1) A being from a different dimension.

(2) Of or having to do with a different dimension other than Earth-616.”

http://marvel.com/universe/Glossary:E#ixzz1Tc3cxOAA

 
The Cyttorak’s magical dimension/Outer Plane lacks of any abstract cosmic hierarchy due it is completely different (because is absolutely magical) and is not connected to Earth 616’s universe. All said shows itself Cyttorak’s Crimson Cosmos/Outer Plane is from extradimensional origin totally different and independent from the Elder Gods, Elderspawn, Old Ones, Undying Ones, Nameless Ones, Pantheon of Gods, Fallen Gods,  Hell-Lords, Whirldemons, Lord of Splinter Realms, Fear Lords, Nethergods, Demons-Angel hybrid and Para-demons. Therefore, is located within the Omniverse as defined by Marvel.
 
Cyttorak proved to be the most powerful Principality, over Watoomb, Raggadorr, Ikonn, Balthakk, Farallah, Hoggoth, Agamotto, Cinnabus, Dyzakk, Krakkan, Nirvalon, Valtorr, Urzuu, Ryzzanel and Sulfindum. 

Multiverse

“(1) A group of universes which are in some way related.

(2) The Multiverse is the collection of alternate dimensions with a similar nature and universal hierarchy. Earth-616 and the vast bulk of the alternate Earths in the Marvel Universe (which include beings like the Uatu the Watcher, Eternity, etc.) are within the same Multiverse. The myriad realms of Earth-616's Multiverse are overseen by the Living Tribunal. Those realms that lack this hierarchy of power are outside of the Multiverse, but within the larger Omniverse. Further, the realms with a Multiverse are divided into divergent Earths, who share a common history and all diverged at a specific point, and alternate Earths, who are similar, but possess many inherent differences.”

http://marvel.com/universe/Glossary:M

Omniverse (Short Definition)

“The collection of every single universe, dimension, reality, etc. This includes the real world, as well as the Marvel Universe , the Star Trek Universe, the Image Universe, etc. Omniverse is also the conceptual ensemble of all possible universes, with all possible laws of physics.”

http://marvel.com/universe/Glossary:O#Omniverse#ixzz1TcXzdQLm

More detailed definitions about Omniverse, Dimensions, Cosmos, Multiverse, Universe -616- here:

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/omnapp.htm

It’s absolutely clear; all this explains Cyttorak/Outer Plane/Crimson Cosmos is just independent, unconnected and different dimension to the physical Universe 616 or mainstream Marvel Universe (Earth -616-) because is entirely created and ruled by the magic of an abstract magical being, who is extradimensional in origin and is located within the Omniverse. However, Marvel has never revealed how were created the Outer Planes.
 

@lord_oraculous016

said:

i never did ever mentioned that Cyttorak is an Elder God, nor did i ever dare to say such as Elder Gods are clearly beyond his level.. Cyttorak himself originated from Earth my good man.. he was banished eons ago..
 

Wrong, Cyttorak never was originated on Earth; he just had only limited influence on Earth during the prehistory at the moment he was banished under unrevealed circumstances to his point of origin, the Crimson Cosmos, according to Marvel. In addition, each Cyttorak’s panel feat has been shown to be beyond the level of the Elder Gods.
 

@lord_oraculous016

said:

Marvel has never ever hinted any special connotation in Cyttorak's origins..  

And so, do you pretend mistakenly to assume that Cyttorak was created on Earth?

@lord_oraculous016 said:

Cyttorak is an intermediate magical being for he holds both concepts of malevolence and benevolence..

Marvel never mentioned this " intermediary". Cyttorak as an abstract magical being just represents the ideas of good and evil, creation and destruction within humans, aliens and demons.

@lord_oraculous016 said:

as such, he possess both qualities of a god and a demon..

Humans and even Fear Lords can not understand what it means exactly Cyttorak and due this, he is imaginatively displayed in different ways either as a god, demon or alien, according to how they associate him to the notions of good and evil, creation or destruction. Reason Cyttorak as magical abstract is called and adored par excellence, in his destructive concept, as the Lord of Oblivion by Spite.
 

@lord_oraculous016

said:

the scan doesn't prove any of your claims.. and once again, Cyttorak is not an abstract as even without his existence, everything will continue to work normally.. he is not an Elder God, much more an Abstracts as both beings has shown far greater feats Cyttorak can ever hope for.. 


Sorry, the scans and Official Marvel information I’ve pointed out proved my claims. So far , you have not pointed a single evidence to refute the fact (depicted and supported by the authorities of Marvel) about Cyttorak is an abstract magical being, so you've lost strongly here dude.

#9 Posted by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
@kenshiroo: You just said a whole lot of nothing.
it seems you do have a whole lot of nightmares with Cyttorak. Lol.
#10 Edited by kenshiroo (919 posts) - - Show Bio

 
Hmm… many things are so flawed here about Cyttorak, let’s begin:

@lord_oraculous016 said:

true.. true.. and there is a major difference between the embodiment of the concept of the void and the embodiment of the universe in its void stage

Cyttorak caused the void stage of an unearthly physical universe. His alias denotes one of his concepts/aspects that he represents. Cyttorak by representing two concepts (good and evil) is which he gains and spreads his fame.
 

@lord_oraculous016

said:

for those claiming that Cyttorak is an abstract based on what has been described, i think there is a huge different in being described as a "abstract" magical entity to a magical "abstract" entity..   to be an abstract, one must personify a certain abstract concept such as TIME (Eternity), SPACE (Infinity), MORTALITY (Death), NOTHINGNESS (Oblivion), CHAOS (Lord Chaos), ORDER (Master Order), VOID STATE OF THE UNIVERSE (Chaos King), CHANGELESS PERFECTION (First Fallen) and LIFE, CREATION, DESTRUCTION AND REBIRTH (Phoenix Force).. 

Cyttorak embodies the difficult abstract concepts of interpretation of good and evil, the creation and the destruction within the VOID of Universes (Reason he is called The Destroyer of Worlds, Lord of Oblivion).

@lord_oraculous016

said:

the reason why Cyttorak was described as a "abstract" magical entity is because he is a magical creature which is difficult to understand, not because he is one of the great powers of the universe..

 
All abstract concepts you’ve mentioned (including Cyttorak: good/evil, creation/destruction) are concepts of difficult interpretation due the great variety of senses with which are used by intelligence and human understanding. I do suggest you learn a little philosophy in Plato's discourses about the meaning of abstract concepts and the world of ideas .

In addition, Cyttorak as magical abstract represents a great threat not only to the physical universe -616- (Mainstream Marvel Universe), but for the whole Multiverse due his unstoppable and powerful limitless destructive power (manifested through his evil concept/aspect). As an extradimensional magical being, his nature is to conquer or destroy other universes. He represents a great destructive power for the Marvel Multiverse.

Crimson Cosmos/Outer Plane, is an external magical dimension which exist outside the multiversal structure altogether and where all physical laws are ruled by magic and thus there is no hierarchy of abstract cosmic inherent to physical universes such as: Eternity, Infinity, Death, Master Chaos, Master Order, LT, etc. None of them has jurisdiction on Crimson Cosmos.

Besides, Cyttorak as a magical abstract being represents several abstract concepts difficult to understand such us: good/the creation and evil/destruction, this last associated with the idea of VOID of Universes. While the abstract cosmic ( inherent of physical universes) only represent a single concept of that reality.

@lord_oraculous016 said:

Cyttorak is not even a magical "abstract" entity, which i think none of Marvel's magical characters can be classified as.. the closest example might be the Elder Goddess Gaea as she embodies the spirit of life, growth and renewal on Earth, but that is still up for debate..  

 
You’ve completely contradicted in what you mentioned before.

First, Cyttorak is not an Elder God neither is related with them or their origins, Marvel authorities have stated him as magical abstract being and his descriptions about his appearances were corroborated explicitly about it. Magical abstract beings as Cyttorak of extradimensional origin are totally different, independent and unrelated with primeval gods (Elder Gods) directly linked to the origins and creation of the Earth and the physical Universe 616.  
 
Cyttorak’s origin was a magical dimension different and independent from the dimension -616 - and the Elder Gods, called Crimson Cosmos (one of called Outer Planes). The Outers Planes are located within the Omniverse; however, Marvel has not yet revealed anything about the origins and creation of Cyttorak/Crimson Cosmos.

@lord_oraculous016

said:

in short, Cyttorak is for all intents and purposes, not an abstract.. he is just a deity which was banished from Earth eons ago.. 

 
Cyttorak as an abstract magical being is perceived or interpreted commonly by humans as a “deity” because he is object of divine worship or idolatry. However, he can be interpreted as an alien or a demon as well because he is a matter of perception (idea) or abstraction for the humans. ; )

Only a small and already limited influence of Cyttorak on the Earth about his destructive aspect was enough to be banished and held back him self within his limitless very essence: the Crimson Cosmos ( within the Omniverse) by an unknown way not revealed by Marvel ( the only thing it can infer is that it was a defensive strategy). Hence, his avatar, the Juggernaut, is his agent of destruction on the earth and the physical universe 616, the Ultraverse and many parallel/alternate universes within the Marvel Multiverse.
 
Cyttorak like any abstract can manifest physically by assuming a corporeal image from the dimensions of manifestations (Physical humanoid form in his godhood creationist aspect).