kenobi26

@gambler: HAHAHAHAHAH! No. Where did you learn about "true" martial arts? A comic book or bad cartoons? And how many Wing Chun, Fatshan (or Kung Fu in general) practitioners have you met? Also, they don't call it an "apprentice" - it's not f%$#ing Star Wars! Jesus!

Actually, in the "glory days" of Chinese fist fighting (kung fu), it was customary for one martial artist to "call out" another (insulting him was part of this), say his kung fu was "crap" and settle it with fists. Period.

And Immortal, I told you I was done talking to you - you're a moron. You're so hopped up on your Superman version of Batman that there's no talking to you. And nowhere in anything I posted did I write like some jackass, mouth-breathing twit (I don't say "Needz" or use numbers for words) ; I'm a college-educated person who has zero tolerance for bastardizing the English language - even in your sorry attempt to make me sound ignorant and yourself superior somehow. You're a child. Go back to "Super-Batman world". And yes, my OPINION still stands - despite your nonsense - that the Batman that they've dumbed down for the A.D.D. kids is absurd. "Outdated" or not - the regular old batman was way cooler. Sorry. Get over it.

I've been giving you LISTS of reasons, but all you want to do is not listen. It's pointless to talk to someone who clearly doesn't have common sense. I'll make it really easy for you, since the longer paragraphs hurt your toddler brain: Overpowered, laser-dodging, god-fighting batman would beat Snake Eyesin a fight. As a normal man without godlike intellect, the ability to shatter steel walls or learn 127 forms of martial arts overnight, he just can't compete. And frankly, who can? The human being version of batman-the "underpowered" one ypu dislike so much (which, by the way is the not gay one) would be hard pressed to beat Snake. The reasons I gave, just like before, is that Snake had better military/demolitions/special forces/ninjitsu/martial arts training. He uses guns, doesnt have a misguided sense of honor in not killing, and batman doesnt have anything in his belt that Snake hasnt seen before. His only saving grace is his ability, given time, to figure out his opponent's weaknesses. I would give the first round to Snake but the second to Bruce. But I know this doesnt compute in your world and I'm wasting my time talking to you.

"Oh...you think darkness is your ally...?"

I'll preface this with a few things:

1. I think Batman is a GREAT character. He's not the "hero", he's the anti-hero, and he's also just a regular guy who relies on his brains, his convictions, his enduring spirit, and prefers to outsmart his opponent.

2. The two men we're talking about here are flip sides of the same coin. Each suffered a tragic loss of their family, each disappeared from society to remake himself and become stronger than before, and each has his own set of values and honor.

This being said, it's not easy to pick a clear winner, and it's just as difficult once we start throwing in all of these "versions" of our favorite hero (or anti-hero). There seem to be as many incarnations and origin stories about one as the other, so which do we follow?

For the purposes of what I'm about to write, I'm using the Chris Nolan/Frank Miller version of Batman - the one who doesn't dodge laser beams and automatic fire, doesn't make constructs to take on Superman, and certainly isn't the "master of 127 forms of martial arts" (pause for laughter). I'm talking about the cool vigilante who swoops out of the darkness to rescue a hapless victim from a gang of thugs, or the man who uses gadgets and obfuscation to to wage his war on the criminal underworld and make himself an "icon" - more than a man. This is the batman I know and grew up with - a man who could bleed and feel pain, but would keep going despite, to get the job done.

Martial Prowess:

I keep reading about all of these fantastic "powers" batman has. He can lift/throw 1000 lbs easily, break steel walls with his fists, has an intellect far surpassing the world's finest scientists, knows every conceivable fighting style in the world...things like that. Let me say this about that: It's impossible for a human being - even one with superior physical strength or intellect - to pull off some of these things. I can stomach a Wolverine-style healing ability through some genetic mutation of the body, or even wall crawling through a similar mutation, hell...I'll even go way out on a limb and say that superheroes with "steel-hard" skin is..."acceptable"...but a human man MASTERING 127 forms of martial arts is IMPOSSIBLE!!! Let's say he even has a PERFECT eidetic memory - able to memorize moves by seeing them once or twice - and that it only takes him a year (pause for laughter) to MASTER a martial art...that puts him somewhere in the realm of 140 years old if he started as a teen. I don't take issue with super powers, but I do with reality. Unless he invented an immortality serum and a Delorean....I'm going to say that is not credible.

Snake Eyes (according to his file card and the comics) has mastered some 12 styles of fighting/martial arts - which is pretty damned impressive. I would say that it would be completely possible for Bruce Wayne to have done the same over the years, I suppose, but here's another annoying facet of the Batman character - when did he become a ninja? Oh that's right, in the early 80's when Frank Miller suddenly got a "hard on" for ninjas and slapped "ninja" on the bios of our favorite characters (see Wolverine, Batman, Daredevil and some others) It's annoying. Snake Eyes was the original "ninja" - fully ninja-trained at a legit ninja clan compound, and the whole works - but all of a sudden, everyone (including the milk man) is a ninja now.

Batman is a brawler. Period. He has a myriad of training from many areas, and combines them into his own "style" (if you'd call it that). He moves in quick, takes a group of punks out with some quick strikes to important spots, then returns to the shadows - that's totally his move. He's not interested in flashy kicks or fluid movements - he's about getting the job done and immobilizing guys quick. That's just who batman is. What he's not is a mysterious assassin, with a whole range of serious ninja killing techniques and weapons in his repertoire. Sure, he's borrowed and adapted the assassin's weapons and tricks - improving on many of them to suit his needs - but again, he has a "style" to adhere to. He uses subterfuge, the darkness, sleight of hand, cunning...all of that to defeat his enemy and strike fear into their hearts.

Snake Eyes is a different machine, and going up against him head to head...is just a bad idea for the caped crusader. He's more on par with say...Wolverine (though less hack and slash or brutal) - he's a graceful killer, with a hundred ways to paralyze or kill an opponent. I've read a few people comparing batman's sword skills to Snake Eyes'...which is laughable. Snake Eyes leans more towards the mystic and old secret techniques of the forgotten masters - like the death palm that shatters internal organs (watch GIJOE RESOLUTE on the "seven steps to the sun" moves he destroys SS with). He was taught by two venerable masters in a long tradition of martial arts, not a mercenary who stumbled into a temple in the mountains.

Snake Eyes takes it in up close hand to hand.

GADGETS/WEAPONRY

As far as Batman's arsenal of smoke bombs, batarangs, and other devices meant to confuse or stun a foe - Snake Eyes would be well-acclimated to them all. There would be no swinging down out of the darkness to surprise him or any snare that he wouldn't be well-aware of. Most of his gadgets were inspired by his ninja origins - Snake wouldn't be surprised by any of it. I laugh each time I see some reference to Batman's "preparation" time and setting up "snares".

I suppose he could run him over with the "car", but where's the sport in that? And who says Snake wouldn't have already wired it to blow sky high before he knew what hit him? Snake Eyes (as I've seen some others post here) has access to the latest military hardware and has been trained in the use of all NATO and WARSAW PACT firearms since the days of Nam. In fact, while Bruce was crying over his expensive Armani sweater away at college, Snake was running with his Spec Forces LRRP group in the jungles of southeast Asia (just as an aside) BEFORE he found his way to the Arishikage clan. He was already a badass, and then returned to fight in spec forces groups a full-fledged ninja, gets his entire face burned off in a copter crash, and finishes the mission anyway, carrying Scarlett from the wreckage. Oh wait, I know Batman had some gas poured on him a couple times...but his face is still there and he didn't get right back up - he called for Alfred to help him (Snake Eyes doesn't have an Alfred of a Robin to save his ass all the time).

Also, there's the small matter of the guns. Snake carries them. he has no compunctions or misguided morality about shooting someone in the face. Up close or from 1000 yards away. While I've seen Batman knock the guns out of the hands of some nickel and dime punks and even some "soldier" types, this is Snake Eyes. I don't give a damn what kind of "kevlar" he's wearing (which everyone thinks is some kind of armor on par with Iron Man lol), Snake would shoot him in his exposed mouth (great design by the way, Bruce), or maybe just thrust a katana in his eye socket.

Snake Takes it on weaponry and gadgets too. Bruce really has nothing in his belt to confuse, stun, blind, or incapacitate Snake, and Snake is usually packing some heavy hardware and a few grenades.

INTELLECT

Okay, here's where Bruce Wayne redeems himself - as he always does. When the chips are down and his spine has been busted, or he's gotten beaten to a pulp by a gorilla man, Batman picks himself back up and broods at his computer for hours, thinking of a way to overcome his foe. It's what he does! If we were to see a real match-up with Snake and Batman, I think round one would go to Snake and he hands Bats a royal Arashikage-style asskicking - complete with death touch turning his organs to soup, broken ribs, and possibly a demolished batmobile (from the c4 he planted there). He crawls back to his cave, Alfred brings him some soup, he does some meditative healing from his League of Shadows days (or knows a guy who knows a guy who teaches him the Snake Eyes technique), and then he brings up every file on Snake Eyes that he can. he studies him for days, maybe contacts a guy who knows a guy who knows Storm Shadow, or digs up some ancient lost "technique" that even Snake doesn't know....and then he goes back with a plan.

Snake Eyes is no dummy. He's very clever, streetwise, very zen, and a step above most guys in a fight or strategy, but he's not Bruce Wayne. I see him going back after him with a solid edge or a "win quick" plan that's a one-shot, hail-mary play, and it pays off as it always does for the Batman. Maybe he lures him onto common ground, unarmed, and he applies the funky chicken death touch counteracting move up close...or maybe he finds a noxious poison that even Snake Eyes' training and body control skill can't flush from his system and overpowers him.

A win for Bruce in this category, and probably how the story would play out. Quite possibly, each man would earn the other's respect in the end as they part ways, and nobody gets killed (most likely), and we have a 1-1 draw in the fight between the two. In the end, it's a popularity contest, and Batman can't "lose" - as we all know.

Flag away. For you to say I have "no good argument" is completely absurd!! I gave you paragraph after paragraph of information and basically all you could say in return was, "Nuh uh! Batman dodges lasers and bullets and the movies didn't make him powerful enough!! Cry cry cry!" Are you 12?? Last time I'd read a batman book, he was still a "normal" guy in peak physical shape, with cool gadgets and a car. That's the batman I know, and the one I've known for years. If they've made him into some demi-god, then shame in terrible writers and bastardizing a good character. And shame on the community that reads batman for tolerating that. Sorry, the Chris Nolan/Frank Miller vision for batman is the one I follow, not the ridiculous "I can build a machine to fight gods" batman and all of the other crap you mentioned. The batman I knew took out crooks with guns and very little training, and had a hell of a challenge if he squared off against Grod. So, you'll forgive me if I easn't comparing a hybrid Tony Stark-Hulk batman to Snake Eyes. I'll just have to wait until Marvel rewrites him with.laser vision, flight and steel skin to compete....oh wait, they're not DC, so they wouldn't. In reality, if we sawa batman snake fight in the books, batman wouldn't lose because it's a popularity contest. Not based on sense. The writers would find a way to make it a draw or throw a curve in to save his ass. Snake would prob beat the snot out of him, and in typical batman fashion, he would retrain himself, study what he did wrong, and come back for a win. Both contestanra have a newfound respect for each other, and disappear into the night. The end.

My point was that while Bruce was walking around brooding in his Armani sweaters, Snake was in Southeast Asia being a hard ass Special Forces Commando. So, you take a guy with that kind of training and send him to be trained by a serious ninja clan (not the budget ninja crooks led by a punk), and then put him back into ANOTHER special forces elite unit that doesn't spend it's days beating up nickel-a-dozen crooks, and you've got a serious contender there.

The problem is that it doesn't sound like many people here have done their reading on Snake Eyes, and are quick to jump on the Dark Knight bandwagon. I don't blame them - he's obviously an iconic, long-standing figure (and hell, I like the guy too), but don't count Snake Eyes out.

My point about Snake and SS being the "original" comic book world ninjas, was just kind of an "aside". As a kid, I really was intrigued when they were first introduced. There really weren't any other ninja characters in the mainstream yet, and it was cool to learn about them and the mystique. Once everyone and their brother had "ninja" training, it kind of ruined it. Now everyone is a ninja - even the mailman. My point was that batman was cool because of his gadgets, his cool car, using his brain to beat the enemy, and his vigilante m.o. That's what made him special, just like Snake Eyes was unique because of his "ninja-ness". But hey, everyone just got promoted to ninja and had that thrown on their resume. It's annoying. They did it right with those characters and explored the whole ninja aspect; the mysticism, the history, the training - and everyone copied it.

Batman is a brawler. Period. He has a myriad of training from many areas, and combines them into his own "style" (if you'd call it that). He moves in quick, takes a group of punks out with some quick strikes to important spots, then returns to the shadows - that's totally his move. He's not interested in flashy kicks or fluid movements - he's about getting the job done and immobilizing guys quick. Anyone disagree? We've all read the books, we've all seen the movies - that's just who batman is. What he's not is a mysterious assassin, with a whole range of serious ninja killing techniques and weapons in his repertoire. Sure, he's borrowed and adapted the assassin's weapons and tricks - improving on many of them to suit his needs - but again, he has a "style" to adhere to. He uses subterfuge, the darkness, sleight of hand, cunning...all of that to defeat his enemy and strike fear into their hearts.

Snake Eyes is a different machine, and going up against him head to head...is just a bad idea for the caped crusader. He's more on par with say...Wolverine (though less hack and slash or brutal) - he's a graceful killer, with a hundred ways to paralyze or kill an opponent. Whoever was comparing batman's sword skills to Snake Eyes'...was just not even close in their assessment, and as far as Batman's arsenal of smoke bombs, batarangs, and other devices meant to confuse or stun a foe - Snake Eyes would be well-acclimated to them all. There would be no swinging down out of the darkness to surprise him or any snare that he wouldn't be well-aware of. Snake Eyes also isn't a "brawler" like Batman - he leans more towards the mystic and old secret techniques of the forgotten masters - like the death palm that shatters internal organs (watch GIJOE RESOLUTE on the "seven steps to the sun" moves he destroys SS with), or using his Zen teachings to change his alpha brain waves to blow up a machine Dr. Mindbender has him strapped to (GI JOE annual #3), and many other "metaphysical/superhuman" techniques that would put him a step ahead.

How is batman going to fight him? Run him over with his car? In hand to hand, he's outmatched, his gadgets will do jack and crap, and at long range, Snake will dust him with his uzis (or just the classic grenade toss and frag the hell out of him - my favorite). Given time, Bruce might be able to study his enemy and figure out a way to defeat him, but in an initial confrontation, he would be cooked - and Snake wouldn't let him back up for a rematch. Sorry.

immortal, there's a far cry between a common thug and Snake Eyes. He wouldn't win based solely on his willingness to kill; he would win on his fighting ability, speed, and training, as well as his tactics. Bruce Wayne was a whiny spoiled rich kid crying about his parents before he was trained by the supposed "ninjas" in the "League" (which isn't even a traditional "ninja clan", but a criminal group that more resembles Chinese or Tibetan fighting styles than anything else - there was a great article on that in IKF a few years back), Snake was killing VC with his spec forces LRRP in the nastiest bush in Nam, before he joined Stormshadow in the established ninja clan. Also, he was trained by two hardened martial arts/ninjitsu masters...not some chump mercenary. As to being able to use his terrain and surroundings, as well as ninja-inspired gadgets? like Bane said, "Oh you think the darkness is your ally?" Also, Snake and Stormshadow were the original ninjas before Frank Miller rewrote every character as a ninja in the mid 80s (please see Wolverine, Batman, and Daredevil). Being fighting machines is what they were, the ninja background was added for flavor to characters who already had a niche (gadgets, healung and claws, radarsight...) Please find me a batman origin story where he's a ninja bdass before the mid eighties. In short, these popular characters ripped off a piece ofthe old Lary Hama Marvel original ninjas. I love batman, but I'm sorry, he would get trounced by real martial artists (with uzis).

Yea...you guys are probably right...batman, the guy who was't trained as special forces, wasn't trained in TWELVE different martial arts and extensive ranged and melee weapons, won't kill or use guns...yea, he's probably the guy who would win here. /sarcasm off. Maybe you batman hard-ons should learn something about Snake Eyes. I recommend issues 26 and 27 of the original series, just for a little background, and then check out later issues for the rest of the list of ways he schools your chump (pressure points, death blow palm strikes, the "ear that sees", zen body control...just for starters) There's an inherent deficit already when one of the contestants is willing to blow the other's brains out from 1000 yards with a sniper rifle...how far can he throw those gay little batarangs again?