JUSTICE42

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JUSTICE42

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Sorry but there is literally nothin that any of the league has which could combat the Odinforce. At least not if it's being used to its full potential. Doom solos this simply virtue of that. Loki with all the extra magic at his disposal (Like Norn Stones for example) and all of Asgard'd recourses is just a bonus. Although he would do major damage I'm sure but he's still not really needed.

The Odinforce is simply way too overpowered. When used to its full potential makes the wielder about as close to omnipotence as you can get. Nothing short of a full on Spectre level entity could hope to deal with it and as powerful as the league is, they're not in that power range. Not even working together with prep.

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Ancient thread I know but something no one seemed to bring up the whole time:

Everyone accepts that Cyttorak is omnipotent and unkillable etc within the Crimson Cosmos. The argument lies in whether or not he will become sufficiently depowered once he leaves the Crimson Cosmos to be defeated by Mikaboshi.

However, this seems like flawed reasoning to me since unlike other mystical entities/cosmic beings/demons etc who created and now reside within their respective dimensions, Cyttorak (as proven by a multitude of scans above) IS his own dimension. His very essence makes up the realm in which he resides thus it cannot even be truly said that he actually "resides" there at all. If fact, following this same logic, he simply exists within the extra dimensional plane not IN the Crimson Cosmos but AS the Crimson cosmos.

This little piece of reasoning seems to have escaped the the notice of just about every writer who has dealt with Cyttorak in the past as he has so often been referenced to "residing within" the Crimson Cosmos yet other times (sometimes even in the same comic) it is stated that he or his essence actually is or makes up the Crimson Cosmos. This is why his power is truly unlimited in his own realm as opposed to only nigh-unlimited or near limitless etc (keep in mind, that I refer to Cyttorak in his own realm despite what I said about that concept being inaccurate and will continue to do so just for lack of a more accurate term that is easy to understand).

Continuing along this line of thinking, it can logically be concluded that since Cyttorak and the Crimson Cosmos are one in the same, and that his power is limitless there, that his power is in fact unlimited within the whole of the extra dimensional plane. Whether this extends to the dimensions of the other entities in the extra dimensional plane is debatable, however, as it has been proven that other beings can at least match the power of other extra dimensional entities within their own dimensions despite their supposed omnipotence there (eg Galactus battling Amagatto in his own dimension) Cyttorak would more than likely retain his unlimited power even in the dimensions of his extra dimensional counterparts (ie vishanti, other octessence members etc).

The true debate then, would be if this power extended to the multiverse as well. The main issue here is that much like shuma gorath and cthun, Cyttorak is too powerful to completely manifest himself in the multiverse and (unlike say cthun) he never has in the past. The quote concerning his banishment refers only to a time when Cyttorak had "limited" influence in the earth realm and it was only that "limited influence" that was banished. As such, the claim that Cyttorak was banished by a force more powerful than himself is not entirely correct since only a fraction of his power was ever in the multiverse to begin with.

That said, there is no evidence that Cyttorak in all his might has ever been in the multiverse which would be necessary in order for him (at the height of his power) to be banished. Due to this, it cannot be PROVEN either way that Cyttorak has or doesn't have limitless powerful in the multiverse. However, despite the OP saying it's Earth-616, it also says "both at their best" which is Chaos King Mikaboshi and Crimson Cosmos Cyttorak.

Make of that what u will and interpret it how you choose but really it's up to interpretation as to who would win.

Personally I'd say Cyttorak at this point but if someone could prove that even if he could fully manifest (in all his power rather than in a fractional, limited way) in the multiverse that his powers would be significantly diminished, then I would be more than willing to accept that Chaos King would defeat him.

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#3  Edited By JUSTICE42

Jin Kazama vs Liu Kang-

Speed and strength to Jin, skill and energy output to Liu. Jin has the devil gene as well so he takes it. Jin Kazama

Kazuya Mishima vs Kung Lao-

As above although the skill is arguable with Kazuya having way more experience than Kung Lao. Kazuya Mishima

Heihachi vs Goro-

Even without the devil gene, Heihachi is still a Mishima and thus is blessed with strength, speed and durability greater than any human normally. Goro may be stronger even than that and he has his 500yrs experience. But as far as I'm concerned Heihachi has demonstrated speed, strength, skill and power necessary to take Goro out. Heihachi Mishima.

Anna Williams vs Baraka-

Baraka is tarkatan (immediately better phizical strength, speed etc plus the teeth, blades and general ferocity. Baraka.

Nina Williams vs Sonya Blade-

Nina is a trained assassin and Sonya is special forces. I'd give an edge to Nina in phizical prowess but Sonya has the energy rings that effortlessly melt metal and blinding dust. So who knows...??

Yoshimitsu vs Noob Saibot-

Great battle. Invins and arguable teleporting ninja with super sword vs resurrected Grand Master cryomancer ninja also with invis, shadow clones and cryokenisis replaced by shadow powers as well as general wraith type powers. Noob will be a bit too much for Yoshi, too much mystic wraithy hocus pocus for him to handle. Noob Saibot

Bryan Fury vs Scorpion-

Bryan has strength and arguable durability. That's it. Scorpion is faster. Way more skilled and can teleport. Worst case scenario, scorpion opens a portal under Bryan and he falls into a pit of lava in the Netherrealm. Oh and btw, magic hellfire>cyborg/android. Scorpion

Jack vs Cyrax-

Faster, more diverse and effective arsenal of weapons, much better fighter, net, can teleport. Cyrax

Alicia Boskonovic vs Sektor

Faster, stronger, slightly superior arsenal, can fly and is fast enough to counter teleporting, regen. Alisa

Hwoarang vs Johnny Cage-

Roughly even skills but Hworang has no counter to super kicks/punches/ uppercuts or energy projectiles. Johnny Cage

Lei Wulong vs Stryker-

Probably faster, far superior fighter. Lei Wulong

Roger Jr vs Jaxx-

Stronger, arguably faster, cybernetic arms, projectiles, shock waves, Special Forces trained (better fighter). Likely more durable as well with new arms. Jaxx

Ling Xiaoyu vs Kitana-

More experience, more ruthless, weapons advantage, Edenian, possibly better fighter (due more likely to more experience than superior natural talent). Kitana

Eddie Gordo vs Reiko-

Actually don't know Reiko but judging by other comments he seems to be able to beat Eddie relatively easily.

Marduk vs Kintaro-

10 foot tall four armed tiger/dragon/humanoid gladitorial monster vs oversized human. Kintaro

Jinpachi vs Shao Kahn-

Despite Shao Khan's massive powers, as was mentioned earlier, he needs his Soulnado power-up to be reach a level like Raiden's. Having said that, he is still probably the greatest sorcerer in MK aside from Shinnok so he would definitely be able to give his money's worth. Jinpachi is a beast in his own right however and I think the powers afforded him by the devil gene would be enough to hold his own. For once I can't justify why 1 should beat the other so it's 50/50 for me here. Shao Khan with access to his Soulnado however would win I think.

Panda vs Motaro-

Giant super strong ram-horned Centaurian with a metal serpentine tail that shoots energy. Plus is also a sorcerer and can teleport. Clearly outmatches a panda that knows some Kung-Fu. Motaro

Christie vs Mileena-

Faster, stronger (half Tarkatan), weapons advantage, projectiles, utterly ruthless and vicious. Mileena

Law & Steve & Paul vs Sub-Zero-

Love this 1. Arguable faster and more agile, with morals off and gameplay mecganics and balancing aside: Sub-Zero flash-freezes them all to the core then shatters them. Sub-Zero

Lee & Raven & Bruce vs Rain-

This 1 is good too. Rain is a demigod with weather, water, and even limited lightning manipulation powers, can also teleport and has been around for thousands of years to practise. Morals off there are so many ways rain could kill all these guys it's really not funny. Rain

Edit:

Michelle Chang vs Nightwolf-

Stronger, shamanistic and ancestral spirit powers. Weapons advantage. Nightwolf.

Ogre vs Raiden-

Both are pretty top tier but whereas Ogre and even True Ogre can be beaten by Jin. While Jin is a very special type of human, ya know with the Devil Gene and all, he's still nowhere near near Raiden's level. People forget (because of how he interacts with mortals) that Raiden is a bonefied God. He just had to assume a mortal frm or he would be so powerful that he would walk all over everyone. Plus teleportation and lightning projection. Raiden.

King / Armor King vs Reptile-

Much faster (can dodge bullets), much more agile, stronger (considering he can leap at least 20 feet), can spit acid, venomancer, tongue, claws, can cling to walls and can invis. Reptile.

Lars vs Smoke-

H2h only?? Lars has this. But Smoke will win because he's got range, can teleport, can turn into smoke (seriously how do u deal with that without some kind if hax), can teleport his opponent and can boil Lars alive from the inside. Smoke

Baek vs Kano-

Baek should win because he's a much better fighter and will win unless Kano gets off a lucky shot with his eye laser. Baek 7/10 for the eye laser reason.

wang Jinrei vs Shujinko-

With the powers of all the warriors of the realms, Shujinko will stomp. Without it, hand to hand about even but as was mentioned earlier Wang is getting old enough it's bothering him a bit but Shujinko not so much. Plus weapons advantage. Shujinko

Ganryu vs Bo Rai Cho-

Higher skill level, more experience, weapons advantage. Bo Rai Cho

Mokujin vs Kenshi-

Kenshi no contest. Mokujin mimics other "fighting styles". That's it. The reason he gains other fighters powers like Devil Jin's flight or Ogre's Hellfire breath is because Tekken is a fighting game and the fighters powers are woven into their moveset to make it more cool and fun to play. Mokujin can't just mimic Devil Jin's fighting style then spontaneously get all of his Devil Gene powers as well. So really he's still just a magically animated wooden dude who can copy other people's actions. Kenshi blasts him apart telekineticlly or holds him in place and hacks him up with his ansestral sword.

Feng Wei vs Sindel-

With Dragon Scoll, Fen Wei would win. Otherwise: Sonic screams, magic energy projectiles, flight, Edenian, weapons advantage (hair), sorceress. Sindel

Kuma vs Sheeva-

Four-armed half dragon humanoid (Shokan) that can leap at least over twice her own 9feet (in height) strait up and shoot fireballs vs a grizzly bear who knows karate. Sheeva.

Devil Jin vs Ermac & Quan Chi & Shang Tsung-

I have a soft spot for Devil Jin so this may be a little biased but if the devil gene in Jin can offset all of the insta-win factors like Shang Tsung stealing his soul or Quan Chi mind controlling him or Ermac turning him into a rag doll or as was mentioned earlier hold him for the sorcerers then I think Jin's speed, strength, durability and energy output may allow him to win..... But I doubt it. I think Devil Jin is about on Raiden's level but definitely not higher. I think that he would about match Quan and Shang but Ermac tips the scales way too much. He is easily one of the most powerful characters in the MKU and is constantly underestimated. I personally would put him just under the level of Raiden by himself and I really don't think many if any others below that level could hope to challenge him. This said, it should be curtains for DJ. Team MK.

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As much as I love Akuma, and Gouken for that matter, Rain has weather manip including more refined hydrokenisis, limited lightning manipulation and can more or less teleport via breaking down into water molecules. Oh and yeah as was mentioned earlier is a 10000 year old Ninja Demigod. That's a long time to master your fighting technique too. Then you have Ermac. The legions of Edenian souls (Edenians are all in some way descended from gods hence their longevity like Rain above^^ only he is actually a DIRECT descendant of an actual God) captured by Shao Khan and fused together magically to create 1 being of immense power. So many semi-divine souls merged resulted in the manifestation of Ermac's powers ie. immense telekinetic ability and the power to control soul energy. This power can be used for many effects, such as producing highly destructive Hado Energy, teleporting and as a source of magic to name but a few. Oh and Ermac is also a master h2h combatant but that seems to be a given for everyone here.

Akuma and Gouken have an arguable strength and speed advantage and their energy output is pretty damn impressive but with the range and scope of the MK fighters powers and abilities, they simply have more options in ways to deal with their opponents that team 1 really can't match.

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#5  Edited By JUSTICE42

Ok firstly, Scenario 1 appears to be slightly favouring the Forerunners. Home field advantage aside, the "No reality warping beings" deprives the the Eldar of their gods and the Necrons of the C'tan (possibly the biggest game changers here) yet the Forerunners receive no corresponding gimp in Scenario 2 (yes they don't get the halo rings and all that but in Scenario 1 not only do the other races lose their in-universe advantages (not an issue coz it goes both ways) but then the Eldar and Necrons lose their most powerful units for no other reason (that I can see) than to give the forerunners a little extra advantage)

Also it could be argued that all psychers are reality warping beings since casting warp lightning (for example) at something is no less reality warping than flat out magic when u really think about it, so there goes a great number of the Eldar population. However, I'm sure that was not the OP's intent and do not agree this should happen but just sayin.

Now to touch on the "Spam Halo Rings And Kill Everyone From Inside Our Shield Worlds" tactic people like to use. If the rings didn't kill the flood, I very much doubt it will kill the tyranids. The Eldar I'm not sure about but they generally seem like they would be affected like most everything else. But the Necrons will essentially get off Scott Free.

As to the actual battles, Scenario 1 I see going to the Necrons..... After a relatively long war. Despite losing the C'tan to the rules, the Necrons still have the edge. The Forerunners by rights, should vaporise the Tyranids just like they should have vaporised the flood. But we are all aware of how PIS works. So I see the 'nids out first. They do have the numbers yeah but the opponents they are up against here have reached technological heights that for the most part will nullify any numerical disadvantage they may have to contend with unless said enemy is more or less on the same technological level. In short, the Tyranids are out classed, out gunned and out of their league (which is a shame coz I am actually quite a fan of them in 40k).

In 40K fluff, the Necrons are unique in that they are the only race that generally shitstomp any enemy faction (regardless of who they are) unless said enemy has a massive numbers advantage (I'll add here that while they are defeated sometimes by overwhelming numbers in ground battles, in space this is rarely if ever the case). That includes both the Eldar and the Tyranids. So really it's more of how the Forerunners stack up against the others and whether they could beat any of them. Necrons in particular.

The Forerunners would come a close second in this first scenario because of home field advantage more or less. They would otherwise be deadlocked with the Pre-Fall Eldar if this were neutral ground or defeated by them in the 40k universe for the same reason.

I'm rather rusty on Pre-Fall Eldar but I distinctly remember that they had become so advanced at the height if their power no one even worked. They had technology to do it for them..... And everything else for that matter (after all, when your race controls the galaxy, you have a life span that stretches millennia and you have tech that can and does do literally everything for you, what else is there?). Hence the epic levels of boredom and lack of purpose which led to the assorted debauchery that A Day In The Life Of Your Average Eldar devolved into, culminating in their Fall. And even the Eldar look at Necron tech like its magic.

From what I've read and what I remember, I'd put them on about the same level technologically as the Forerunners or maybe even a little a tiiiiiny bit below them since they both have some border-line-hax to hax shiz to showcase in their own right but I'm not sure if (even at their height) the Eldar ever got so far as to start genetically engineering other races like the Forerunners did. Maybe they weren't interested but I thought that was more in the province of the Old Ones seeing as that's how the Eldar came to be in the first place. Furthermore, Eldar more than any other race utilise the warp in conjunction with technology. Unlike the IoM for example, it's not just a source of psychic power and a way to get around the galaxy. The Eldar utilize it in just about every way they can and I don't know if that may have unintentionally limited the development of the tech itself (eg- we wouldn't of invented cars or buses or trains etc if we could all fly around like superman). If someone could clear that up for me I would appreciate it.

Having said that, on the proviso that they don't get instance killed by the Halo array, I think the same warp energy that "may" have somewhat gimped their technological advancement (or at least slowed it) would be a major issue for the Forerunners since they really have no counter to it.

All in all, I would have Scenario 1 as the Necrons coming out on top because even with their shield worlds and halo rings and other home field advantages they possess, the forerunners aren't quite at the hax level of the Necrons. I mean even the most basic Necron troop (Necron warrior) is made of living, regenerating, ridiculously strong metal armour. Forerunners have battle armour themselves but even the didact's suit of awesomeness cannot match the necron's upper ranks of Necron lord armour. As far as I know, (could be wrong) once u blow a hole in a forerunner and their armour, they don't have the ability to get right back up and keep fighting while repairing themselves. An edge in durability or at the very least with regen, plus the fact that the same basic warrior is armed with a weapon which, by firing a green lightning looking bolt of energy , essentially flays matter on an molecular (atomic?) level by dissolving the bonds between the molecules (atoms?) of the target then magnetically pulling the now individual molecules (atoms?) back towards the weapon. This is considered the most basic weapon in the Necron arsenal and is literally mass produced for their basic infantry. What I'm getting at here is not that the Necrons are way over the hill compared to everyone else but they are essentially one tier above them. The forerunners I know possess tech which can compare with a lot of Necron tech but when it comes to the highest end, Necrons are still in the lead. Things like Tesseract Labyrinths (hand held cube that sucks enemies into a parallel dimension) staves that stop time, ships that eat suns and have literally limitless speed, firepower which is as likely to go strait through your shields as not, guns that deconstruct matter (as your most basic rifle)..... You get what I mean.

The forerunners have the ability to make for example lasers that vaporise u on an atomic level but such a thing would be a specialised weapon reserved for special units or missions and it is that which let's them down the most. And while they have accomplished wonders of technology, the Necrons have reached a stage where even the laws of physics pose no problem any more. I'd put the forerunners at a tech level somewhere in between current Eldar and the Old Ones. Not sure how Pre-Fall Eldar would fit but as I said earlier, probably ever so slightly below the Forerunners. Followed then of course by the Tyranids last and that is how I think the battle would go in scenario 1:

Necrons>Forerunners>Pre-Fall Eldar>Tyranids.

Now scenario 2 is almost exactly the same as Scenario 1 accept that the in-universe advantages afforded the forerunners have been replaced with advantages for the others like the Webway for instance. This, along with the introduction of the Eldar pantheon and the C'tan for the Necrons means that now the Forerunners will drop to third as the Pre-Fall Eldar become too much for them to handle in the 40kverse. Some end of Scenario 2:

Necrons>Pre-Fall Eldar>Forerunners>Tyranids

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JUSTICE42

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@czarny_samael666

In their defense, BA and CM are (I'm pretty sure), by virtue of their blessings, immune to both molecular manipulation and all but the "highest order of magic" which would definitely include his god blast but probably not much other stuff other than magically amped lightning and probably antiforce blast will affect them and of course OF if he's allowed it. If not, either way his times stop may work too but again not sure. Still tho, Thor could possibly solo but maybe not a majority but only if he fought smart, and utilised his powers properly. He'd definitely need his hammer in this one tho.

@Everyone Else

Everything else czarny_samael666 said^^ is pretty well spot on. BA and CM are amazing, powerful and not to be underrated as they both so often are but compared to the other 2 they are a little outclassed but only in terms of variety and of their power sets.

P.S. Interestingly, black Adam can actually go into a state where he channels extra power from the dark gods that grant him his original powers. Even though when Isis gave him his true power back before WW3 he became strong enough to do what he did then but this is an actual amp again so he may be a match for Thor at least physically even in warrior's madness but sentry will still defeat CM and tip the scales. Either way, aside from above mentioned points, agreed with czarny_samael666.

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JUSTICE42

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This match it hard for me because the characters in it are 4 of what is possibly my 5 favourite characters in all of comicdom so I absolutely have to comment and bump it.

Ok so as far as I see it going, physically, they are all about the same. Which would mean that it would come down to experience, skill and powers. For this reason, I am going to lean slightly towards team marvel.

Thor can take either BA or CM due to them being basically even physically, but with the added advantage of Mjolnir and a much wider variety of magical abilities in favour of Thor. And while Black Adam can also cast, channel and shoot magic lightning (as opposed to just summon it like CM; he's still learning his powers after all) as well as his own ancient Egyptian dark arts and possibly even elemental control and telekinesis (the last 2 he supposedly got from when he regained the godly powers he gave to Isis but has yet to showcase their use), Mjolnir will still be a problem for him and Thor still has more variety.

Sentry (IMO) can take either of them too since I've always seen him as superman plus. I just get frustrated sometimes when people underrate him by low balling like cherry picking feats to suit their needs or playing on PIS and of course, the infamous hellicarier which was mentioned earlier. And I always thought that forums like CV specifically left out things like PIS to make it more interesting and less annoying. Either way, all out Sentry (either in void persona or as Sentry in complete control of his powers) possibly could solo but I'm not sure and it's hard for me to say any one character short of entities, abstracts and the like could solo both CM AND BA but sentry already made a mess of not only Asgard but then everyone else at the end of siege would have killed everyone had it not been for the mighty Helicarrier of Plot Device. But up until then, he was owning everyone, that included Thor all of whom were already amped via Norn Stones.

Basically, due to their power sets I see it as they all slug it out for a while until they realise its going nowhere fast then Sentry starts using his less commonly used powers and Thor takes the "Holding back so I don't accidentally kill anyone" gloves off and starts using his other powers, and eventually BA and CM go down. They just don't have an answer to either Mjolnir, Thor's energy projection or Sentry's own energy projection.

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Yeah MM could arguably solo and sentry tapping ALL his powers (ie. void's power set as well) then he could deffinitely solo and together is almost a stomp; if not an actual stomp.

Thanks

JUSTICE OF THE PEACE

-

J.o.t.P

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Ok I'll bump this, so I don't make a replica thread and have it locked.

Sorry MM supporters, in character MM would lose coz he'd go for the TP option strait up and get stomped or release voidy and get stomped. If not, then current Sentry in character would probably keep up in a brawl for a while, but eventually, he will start to get outclassed and lose to the point of near death resulting in another of the above mentioned "void-outs" which=MM getting stomped.

But this is a forum battle so no character crap or morals for us. So it's "stable-minded" Sentry; Which would mean all in control of all of his powers, which yet again=MM getting stomped.

The way I see it, really, we can,t be 100% sure about the TP situation but I think enough has been posted (IMHO) to say that MM may likely meet his better (or at very least his equal), when trying even to affect the mind of Sentry at all. However, in a strait up brawl, Sentry would lose. I would argue that it is more a question o how long the Martian would have to lay into Sentry before Bob figured out he was a bit outmatched in a fight and really start letting lose other powers like his matter manipulation, energy projection, using energy to amp his strength and speed and other powers, or even the ability he showed as the void when he brought up all his enemy's fears (which I suspect insinuates Telepathy since nowhere in that issue do I remember how void knew those fears). In any case, no matter which way you look at it the Last Son of Mars can manage to keep the upper hand on current sentry, old sentry would Stomp him, but even with current it's only a matter of time that MM has before Sentry loses it via either void-out or just getting pissed at having to regenerate more (Sentry's regen is actually better than MM's btw guys, it makes up for his fluctuating durability when he's not feeling good) and then, he will end J'onn. If Sentry was still all Skitzo then it's another story but without morals even then it doesn't really matter if u use current Sentry since he's not affected by morals he may as well be a less deliberately cruel version of void.

Anyways, long story short Sentry will eventually, one way or the other his true power will come to bear and then he'll splatter Manhunter. Oh an for the record, despite my DP, I like the sentry yeah but I'm not one of those fanboys who think he can hang with galactus or anything but I would like to believe the one quote I heard about marvel stating Sentry is as powerful as PF but I'll need more evidence or to actually see a written copy (or a link if anyone has either) of it posted.

Either way I still think he would beat J'onn for the reasons I said. Please feel free to question or prove me wrong on anything I'd rather know the right facts then debate with wrong ones.

Thanks.

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@ghettoswag: ok then we'll king thor as far as I know only had Odin force but still king thor and a no morals sentry would each beat WBH then it would be those two teaming on zarathos but I think king thor could stalemate him alone anks to actual odinforce used effectively so with bob as well I think old zarathos would get overwhelmed eventually and then as was mentioned earlier get tired of an eternal beat down and just bail on the whole thing or maybe sentry or KT could restrain/contain/imprison his essence somehow through some weird dues ex machina sentry ability or some mystical magic cage that saps his demonic essence who knows? Basically OF could can match zarathos as king thor can use it properly. Sentry tips the balance. WBH gets his gamma energy drained by sentry then Bruce gets torn in half and thrown t the sun or gets blinked out of existence by KT with OF or fried by mystical lightning (remember magic>phizics=OF mystic lightning>phyzical durability/healing factor). A case could be made for Sentry could stalemate zarathos but not 100% on that. But I'm sure he can hold out and put up a pretty decent fight for ore than long enough for thor to finish WBH and as I said ^^ KT+OF can match zarathos. So yeah it's team King Thor & Sentry FTW.

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