Vertigo and DC Should Merge Again!



The recent return of Swamp Thing in Brightest Day got me to thinking. How awesome would it be if the DC/Vertigo universes were merged again? Or at least have vertigo exist in one of the 52 Earth's. Shade, Doom Patrol, Animal Man,& Swamp Thing all had excellent work done with them at the company and I think using established DC characters in vertigo's more mature world would benefit everybody involved. I mean how awesome would a Shadowpact title with John Constantine on the team be? How about an even edgier Secret Six title? How much doper would the current arc's trip to hell have been if they were in the hell depicted in Gaiman's Season of Mist?! Baine's reaction to Ragdoll telling him he's doomed for hell would've been really something had the sentence been pronounced by Lucifer himself. One of my favorite things that happened in comics recently was the appearance of Death in Cornell's Action Comics. I would love to see more and more moments like that occur. Vertigo's, bar none, my favorite company of all time and has produced some of my favorite works in literature period. Currently I must admit that I'm not too pleased with the current direction the companies going in. I still enjoy a few titles being produced there in recent years, most notably The Unwritten, American Vampire,& Unknown Soldier (foolishly canceled) to name a few. But the company's become too focused on repacking trades of their classic works instead of giving new titles time to grow and find their niche fan base. I think that granting writers access to DC's staple of characters would really do wonders for their roster of ongoings.   
33 Comments
33 Comments
Posted by MatKrenz

You better hope Silkcuts doesn't find this blogpost because he might get mad.
Posted by Caligula

I'd rather they not.

Vertigo>DC (yes I know DC owns vertigo)

Vertigo's titles rapestomp most everything the big 2 offer. The big 2, are not that good.

Posted by JonesDeini
@Caligula said:
" I'd rather they not.Vertigo>DC (yes I know DC owns vertigo)Vertigo's titles rapestomp most everything the big 2 offer. The big 2, are not that good. "
Agree the big two are my least fav and produce my least fav stories. I'm not nearly as big on the cape and mask set. That being said I'd like to see stuff done with them like Morrison did with Doom Patrol/Animal again. 

@MatKrenz said:
" You better hope Silkcuts doesn't find this blogpost because he might get mad. "
Take it he's not a fan of the idea?
Posted by JonesDeini

Silk, where you at, bro? lol

Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus

I haven't read much Vertigo but what I have read leads me to conclude that DCU swallowing up Vertigo would not be the best thing to happen, anymore than the apparent dissolution of Wildstorm stuff or even the Dakotaverse (RIP McDuffie).  Too many differences between the two anyway to make em completely insoluble. 

Posted by Silkcuts

I disagree... John Constantine grew out of the DCU, he no longer fits in that universe.

Posted by JonesDeini
@RedheadedAtrocitus said:
" I haven't read much Vertigo but what I have read leads me to conclude that DCU swallowing up Vertigo would not be the best thing to happen, anymore than the apparent dissolution of Wildstorm stuff or even the Dakotaverse (RIP McDuffie).  Too many differences between the two anyway to make em completely insoluble.  "
Completely dig what you're saying, I should've worded this better. I don't want them to merge, so much as I want the vertigo writers to be able to use DC's characters again. At some point (I can't quite recall when) DC drew the line and mad it the official policy that their characters (aside from those like Madame Xanadu) were not to be used in Vertigo's works. Heaven forbid J.T. Krul write Jesse Custer or Moses Lwanga join the Outsiders...
Posted by JonesDeini
@Silkcuts said:
" I disagree... John Constantine grew out of the DCU, he no longer fits in that universe. "
The man of the hour appears!!!! I never read Hellblazer comics and am familiar with the character via guest appearances in other works. Would you care to explain what you mean? Also what do you think about my idea of DC allowing their properties to be used in vertigo works again? That's really the only thing I want to see. 
Posted by ssejllenrad

No.. I don't want them to merge...

Posted by Silkcuts
@JonesDeini said:

" @Silkcuts said:

" I disagree... John Constantine grew out of the DCU, he no longer fits in that universe. "
The man of the hour appears!!!! I never read Hellblazer comics and am familiar with the character via guest appearances in other works. Would you care to explain what you mean? Also what do you think about my idea of DC allowing their properties to be used in vertigo works again? That's really the only thing I want to see.  "
Every other Once Vertigo character I can handle back in the DCU.  Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Black Orchid, Brother's Geek, Kid Eternity and so on, but John Constantine was Fleshed out in the "Mature" experimental Vertigo line. When John was in the DCU I would say he was the "messiah" archetype, but most readers wouldn't get it since they don't look for archetypes in the first place.  Once Vertigo matured, so did John, in the 23 years Hellblazer has been running, the series has pushed the medium.  Preacher fans can hate me on this, but Preacher is a creator-owned property that really is a spin-off of Hellblazer, Genesis is Ellie's child.  Events like Shoot showed that Hellblazer was pushing horror to the point it was too sensitive to print at the time.  Writers like Morrison and Gaiman explored the relationship of comics to "magick".  Hellblazer is the spine of mature reads.

Bring John back to the DCU is a step back of what he has become.  One thing that makes him special was that he aged in real time, something you don't see from most North American characters. While the mainstream has been recycling ideas most of the time, John was growing older, wiser and living as if he was a real person.  In some ways I do see him like a real person, since I grew with him as I grew with the medium.  No other character I can think of has had so much great talent writing or drawing him.  Azzarello to Morrison, Bradstreet to Paul Pope, many greats have worked on John and helped flesh him out.  His DCU history is a hiccup, why return to it?
Edited by JonesDeini
@Silkcuts said:

" @JonesDeini said:

" @Silkcuts said:

" I disagree... John Constantine grew out of the DCU, he no longer fits in that universe. "
The man of the hour appears!!!! I never read Hellblazer comics and am familiar with the character via guest appearances in other works. Would you care to explain what you mean? Also what do you think about my idea of DC allowing their properties to be used in vertigo works again? That's really the only thing I want to see.  "
Every other Once Vertigo character I can handle back in the DCU.  Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Black Orchid, Brother's Geek, Kid Eternity and so on, but John Constantine was Fleshed out in the "Mature" experimental Vertigo line. When John was in the DCU I would say he was the "messiah" archetype, but most readers wouldn't get it since they don't look for archetypes in the first place.  Once Vertigo matured, so did John, in the 23 years Hellblazer has been running, the series has pushed the medium.  Preacher fans can hate me on this, but Preacher is a creator-owned property that really is a spin-off of Hellblazer, Genesis is Ellie's child.  Events like Shoot showed that Hellblazer was pushing horror to the point it was too sensitive to print at the time.  Writers like Morrison and Gaiman explored the relationship of comics to "magick".  Hellblazer is the spine of mature reads.
Bring John back to the DCU is a step back of what he has become.  One thing that makes him special was that he aged in real time, something you don't see from most North American characters. While the mainstream has been recycling ideas most of the time, John was growing older, wiser and living as if he was a real person.  In some ways I do see him like a real person, since I grew with him as I grew with the medium.  No other character I can think of has had so much great talent writing or drawing him.  Azzarello to Morrison, Bradstreet to Paul Pope, many greats have worked on John and helped flesh him out.  His DCU history is a hiccup, why return to it? "
Okay, I get what you'e saying, but here's what I'm saying; I'd like a Shadowpact book written by, let's say Mike Carey, on vertigo in which Constantine was a team member. Let the vertigo world be it's on universe much like Marvel Knights/Max/Ultimate is. I guess I'm just being nostalgic, but I miss the days where DC's heroes could be put into more mature, thought provoking situations than in their DCU titles and Elseworlds. 
Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus
@JonesDeini: Sure I think crossovers would work.  That would still be interesting in my opinion. Haha Moses Lwanga as an Outsider..now that would be a trip, lol
Posted by Silkcuts
@JonesDeini said:
" @Silkcuts said:

" @JonesDeini said:

" @Silkcuts said:

" I disagree... John Constantine grew out of the DCU, he no longer fits in that universe. "
The man of the hour appears!!!! I never read Hellblazer comics and am familiar with the character via guest appearances in other works. Would you care to explain what you mean? Also what do you think about my idea of DC allowing their properties to be used in vertigo works again? That's really the only thing I want to see.  "
Every other Once Vertigo character I can handle back in the DCU.  Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Black Orchid, Brother's Geek, Kid Eternity and so on, but John Constantine was Fleshed out in the "Mature" experimental Vertigo line. When John was in the DCU I would say he was the "messiah" archetype, but most readers wouldn't get it since they don't look for archetypes in the first place.  Once Vertigo matured, so did John, in the 23 years Hellblazer has been running, the series has pushed the medium.  Preacher fans can hate me on this, but Preacher is a creator-owned property that really is a spin-off of Hellblazer, Genesis is Ellie's child.  Events like Shoot showed that Hellblazer was pushing horror to the point it was too sensitive to print at the time.  Writers like Morrison and Gaiman explored the relationship of comics to "magick".  Hellblazer is the spine of mature reads.
Bring John back to the DCU is a step back of what he has become.  One thing that makes him special was that he aged in real time, something you don't see from most North American characters. While the mainstream has been recycling ideas most of the time, John was growing older, wiser and living as if he was a real person.  In some ways I do see him like a real person, since I grew with him as I grew with the medium.  No other character I can think of has had so much great talent writing or drawing him.  Azzarello to Morrison, Bradstreet to Paul Pope, many greats have worked on John and helped flesh him out.  His DCU history is a hiccup, why return to it? "
Okay, I get what you'e saying, but here's what I'm saying; I'd like a Shadowpact book written by, let's say Mike Carey, on vertigo in which Constantine was a team member. Let the vertigo world be it's on universe much like Marvel Knights/Max/Ultimate is. I guess I'm just being nostalgic, but I miss the days where DC's heroes could be put into more mature, thought provoking situations than in their DCU titles and Elseworlds.  "
Carey can write Shadowpact mature and I am sure it would be a good read, Constantine in teams is not always great... the Trenchcoat Brigade in 1999 was a great example that a team book with John is not always a great as it could be.  Gaiman's books of magic with the Trenchcoat Brigade was good because Hunter was the focus of the story and the brigade was more a joke then an actual "team".  No offense, but your desire to see John in teams like Shadowpact is the same reason why I don't like the new powers at DC Comics.  You want to play with toys you really have no attachment too, and since you never read Hellblazer, how can you care for John Constantine.  That is like me saying I want Superman in a new team but never reading a Superman story.  Constantine pushes the medium forward and the correlation to the boundaries he has pushed  I would say is on par to the correlation to my understanding of the medium.  Not trying to toot my own horn, but the way I see comics is not shared by most and the reason for it is my honest care for the medium.  Vertigo is known as the "Literature" line and that is why certain fringe almost canceled lines that were "superheroes" were places for guys like Moore and Morrison to explore things they could not do for the mainstream.  I am not trying to hate of the average reader, but the average reader cannot see the depth and potential of the medium and that is where Vertigo won the heart of guys like Me and Aztek.  Even with a mature mainstream read, very little really tries to push the medium like Vertigo has, a great example of it is the Vertigo Tarot deck.  The Tarot is a dynamic comic book in many ways and I think that is why it is neat that certain archetypes attached to certain cards also applied to "The Vertigo Universe" if there ever was an official one.  No other comic company/imprint I could think could support creating its own Tarot like Vertigo has.  Take the Marvel universe for example, what would Spider-Man be, "The Fool"? You create him as "The Fool" Spider-Man fans will be in a fit since they here the word "Fool". but The Fool is a great honor since it is not numbered, so it does not truly fit the order in sequence, it can be seen as the first of the tarot and the last at the same time.  John Constantine in the Vertigo Deck is the Fool and boy does he fit that archetype. 

Vertigo at its best is not just pictures and words it is Magick personified on paper.  Most "Vertigo" readers read in trade and I suspect its so they can have other people tell them why it is so good and then they can agree.  Take Greek Street for example, a series that was even hard for me to read since I didn't always see the allusions.  But I knew it had depth and I dug and I'll tell you it was "Gone too soon" like Michael Jackson.  Mainstream comics tend to be stale since most readers want stale, that is why Marvel has so much support,even if their canonized comic history is reconted all the time and full of more anti-climatic moments then something I would teach in a university level "graphic novel" class.

Vertigo could still serve as a "Marvel Knights/Marvel Max", but then its now copying Marvel.  Speaking of those too Marvel imprints, I am pretty sure all the work I enjoyed from those imprint was edited by Axel Alonso another from Hellblazer editor, an editor that would also eventually help create the Preacher formula. I state it because it is true, Hellblazer enhances the potential and understanding of the medium, canceling the series just to have John in the mainstream is a huge step back for anyone who wants something special in comics, something more.

I don't think I need to say anymore, I think I made a stronger argument in your blog then I did my own about this topic.  One thing is true, not John Constantine fan would be happy to see him return to the DCU.  He literally grew out and way from it.

Cheers Mate
Posted by Primmaster64

Welll Lucifer is th Satan of DCU...Hell I think he's the Satan of all comics.

Posted by JonesDeini
@Silkcuts: 
Excellent points. But I definitely wouldn't approve of the current Hell Blazer comic cancelled for any reason (I know how much it means to people, like you for example). Let alone soley for him to appear in another title. What I love about vertigo is how their titles push the limits of the medium and challenge both readers, writers, and artists to journey together at the edge of the universe. The innovation I saw at Vertigo is what's made it my favorite company. I prefer their concepts, characters, etc. I agree that hero comics have gotten stale and feel that vertigo's writers could create great stories with DC characters. I say let them have bottom tier characters since they've always been hesitant to allow their flagships to be used. Like you said Moore/Morrison were allowed to get away with Murder on their titles because DC took a very hands off approach with the characters they were using. I'd like to see what the writers and artists at vertigo could do again given similar conditions. 

@Primmaster64: 
The current ruler of DC's hell is Lady Blaze if I'm not mistaken. Lucifer from Sandman doesn't exist in the DCU currently, at least to my knowledge. And Marvel has many "hells" and many devils, none of which are the Judeo-Christian Satan. 
Posted by Primmaster64
@JonesDeini: Um...yeah he does. They are the rulers of Hell because Lucifer left.
Posted by turoksonofstone
@JonesDeini: 
Vertigo is supposed to be a place for the refined DC reader merging it with the regular DCU again would be a mistake and a "dumbing down" of the entire line.
I agree with Silkcuts dissolving their best imprint would be akin to suicide for DC. (Not that it will stop them, like Marvel they have lost touch with their audience, unlike Marvel they are also losing touch with their properties with the exception of Batman they seem to be a mess.)
Posted by JonesDeini
@Primmaster64 said:
" @JonesDeini: Um...yeah he does. They are the rulers of Hell because Lucifer left. "
I don't think that Vertigo's Lucifer was ever "The Devil" in DC's world aside from the odd guest appearance "Demon". There were other beings who used that name, but they were not the Lucifer created by Gaiman. I know Lucifer ruled hell up until Season of Mist when he abandoned his realm. Blaze came to power by ousting Neron, who I guess took power at some point, I'm not quite sure how the split of Vertigo/DC affected DC's hell. 

There is no "Lucifer" in Marvel, they have a different cosmology. They have many demons claiming to be Satan, the most recognized (and powerful) to claim the name is Marduk Kurios, father of Hellstorm and Satana. Even he admits he's not "The Devil" he was clever and played other demons against one another to gain the power and realms he posses and before the name Satan/Lucifer was uttered he and other powerful demons existed and were worshiped and feared by mortals. 
Posted by Silkcuts
@JonesDeini:  The problem is DC has their hands in the pot too much.  Vertigo is loosing its edge and it looks like Image is the new Vertigo.  Morning Glories, I am sure you can agree, is better then most of what Vertigo is currently publishing.  Aztek told me Chew was originally solicited to Vertigo, but was turned away.  DC is making bad decisions.  If my favorite writers were not pumping mad DC books, I would of given up on DC.
Posted by JonesDeini
@Silkcuts: 
Oh yeah, bro. Image is the current Vertigo. And I can't believe that they turned down Chew?! What the unholy frak!? Who's running the ship over their now?! A lobotomized blind, deaf, mute?! Now I know why Aztek has so much vitriol in his post. And yeah, DC's got some great writers working on their stuff. I used to be a Marvel man as far as capes comics went. But they have lost their minds over there. Never thought I'd see the day when I buy a JLI title instead of an Avengers book. 
Posted by aztek_the_lost

although the idea of DC properties being able to be written at either publisher would be nice, Vertigo is almost exclusively creator-owned stuff now anyways...Hellblazer and House of Mystery are all that's left of DC and neither really needs more DCU characters...almost everything DC took back was ruined, although I'm pissed off Madame Xanadu was cancelled, as long as Hellblazer continues I've come to accept the development of DC keeping its hands on its characters, with all the ones they've taken back and ruined in the past, I don't think I could get very hopeful about any new book having lasting changes on a character


but Vertigo characters being used by DC? I don't approve the idea...I'm holding out to see what Milligan will do with the Vertigo Shade in a DC book...but past examples of what happens when DC takes back a character are so far at a 0% success rate of preserving anything Vertigo established
Moderator
Posted by JonesDeini
@aztek the lost said:
" although the idea of DC properties being able to be written at either publisher would be nice, Vertigo is almost exclusively creator-owned stuff now anyways...Hellblazer and House of Mystery are all that's left of DC and neither really needs more DCU characters...almost everything DC took back was ruined, although I'm pissed off Madame Xanadu was cancelled, as long as Hellblazer continues I've come to accept the development of DC keeping its hands on its characters, with all the ones they've taken back and ruined in the past, I don't think I could get very hopeful about any new book having lasting changes on a character

but Vertigo characters being used by DC? I don't approve the idea...I'm holding out to see what Milligan will do with the Vertigo Shade in a DC book...but past examples of what happens when DC takes back a character are so far at a 0% success rate of preserving anything Vertigo established
"
Thou doth speak truly. I'm kind of upset that Swamp Thing's returning to the current DCU.  I like the character and shudder at the potentially bad writing (if any) he'll get after Brightest Day :(
Posted by aztek_the_lost
@Silkcuts: btw, if you want my source for that Chew-related trivia, it's actually from this ComicVine Podcast: approx. 14:45-16:45
Moderator
Posted by Supreme Marvel
@aztek the lost said:
"Although I'm pissed off Madame Xanadu was cancelled."
That annoyed me also.
Posted by JonesDeini
@Supreme Marvel said:
" @aztek the lost said:
"Although I'm pissed off Madame Xanadu was cancelled."
That annoyed me also. "
Sadly that's how the Big V rolls these days :(
Posted by Silkcuts
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts: btw, if you want my source for that Chew-related trivia, it's actually from this ComicVine Podcast: approx. 14:45-16:45 "
I believe you
^_^
Posted by JonesDeini
@Silkcuts said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts: btw, if you want my source for that Chew-related trivia, it's actually from this ComicVine Podcast: approx. 14:45-16:45 "
I believe you^_^ "
Still trying to wrap my mind around how they pass on that book...
Posted by batmanary

Why? Vertigo can be maintained as the imprint where more mature stories occur. I don't see why a Lobo or Batman mini can't be under Vertigo instead of outright merging the two universes.

Posted by JonesDeini
@batmanary said:
" Why? Vertigo can be maintained as the imprint where more mature stories occur. I don't see why a Lobo or Batman mini can't be under Vertigo instead of outright merging the two universes. "
Yeah that's what I meant "merge" was a poor choice of wording. And now I can't change the title.
Posted by danhimself

you guys should check out Brightest Day #24....some of you will be upset

Posted by JonesDeini
@danhimself said:
" you guys should check out Brightest Day #24....some of you will be upset "
Was JUST thinking about that, holy crap why?! That's the total opposite of what I wanted. All I wanted was Vertigo's writers trying their hand at DC's characters!!! You know like look at Snyder's Detective run, that's a fine example of what I wanted to see. But this?! I didn't want THIS! who in their right mind would?!
Posted by danhimself
@JonesDeini said:
" @danhimself said:
" you guys should check out Brightest Day #24....some of you will be upset "
Was JUST thinking about that, holy crap why?! That's the total opposite of what I wanted. All I wanted was Vertigo's writers trying their hand at DC's characters!!! You know like look at Snyder's Detective run, that's a fine example of what I wanted to see. But this?! I didn't want THIS! who in their right mind would?! "
I'm not sure that it's what it appears to be....look at that last page again...no scar and significantly younger
Posted by JonesDeini
@danhimself: 
Indeedski, bro. Let us pray that you are right...but knowing Geoff John's style of writing events and comics In general I wouldn't be shocked if he pulled this boneheaded stunt.