jmc247's forum posts

#1 Edited by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnetowasalwaysright:

Coming from someone with a Magneto Was Right avatar I would have thought you would have been able to dilenate between saying Lorna isn't a Xavierite (hell Lorna was one of the first people in the comics to use that phrase that Magneto had been right) to saying she is bad.

Of course I fully recognize the next writer to deal with her might write her as a Xavierite as opinions about about her willingness to use lethal force as shown on this thread widely vary to an extreme degree. It's no different when it comes to writers.

Lorna herself goes from being written as unwilling to use force even to save her life in RAFOTSE to blowing up Shi'ar starships left and right and trying to kill the IG and Vulcan. Two philosophically completely different versions of Lorna from one series to the next.

Magneto tends for the most part to be the polar opposite of Charles Xavier's philosophical views? Is saying that attacking the character? No, because only an child's storybook Disney philosophy ascribes to big moral decisions in things like war as easy and black and white. I prefer Lorna to not view the world as a generic old time black and white super hero something she didn't even originate on the comics in the 60s as.

As Disney becomes more and more hands on I expect things to increasingly become more and more black and white with time anyway. Tons of comics made early to mid last decade would have never been made in the current era. If they become more hands on with time expect a more clear dilatation between what 'heroes' do and what 'villains' do with less and less shades of grey.

#2 Posted by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmc247: Lorna's passionate personality can often be taken as her merely being dramatic. This is not so. She believes that anything she does requires her whole self. Too many times she has had that taken from her. So whether it is her love-life or her life as an X-man, she does both with gusto for two people. Loyal, She has reached a point in her life where she knows herself. She knows where she stands in the big scheme of things, and she isn't going to let anyone deter her from this ideal. Mutants and humans can coexist. She is firmly rooted in this belief, and she will do whatever it takes to reach it. As much as she has come to rely on the love of her life, Alex Summers, the more she realizes how she needs to be her own person. She loves him with all of her heart, and would stand by him through anything, but sometimes she had her own views about things, her own feelings. It helped her to keep in touch with herself and like most X-men, Lorna has a heart of gold. She would and has put herself in danger for the sake of her friends. She's always there with a ready ear and a pint of Ben and Jerry's if someone needs to unload their troubles.

Polaris likes the beach and geology. She dislike liars and humiliation. She fear being alone and proof that Magneto is indeed her real father. Lorna, ironically, has spent most, if not all, of her time in the employ of the good guys. For the most part, her heart tends to be benevolent with pure motives. To that end, she’s been associated with the X-Men and some of their affiliated offshoot groups. Polaris originally served with X-Men and X-Factor, two groups centered around the composition of mutants. And now she's serving her father, saving the world.

Storm is not a replacement of Polaris. Is like saying Emma is a replacement of Jean or Cyclops a replacement of Magneto. Those panels you posted are nothing, but pieces of panel to support your argument. As I see it in those panels it could have been Storm, Cyclops, Psylocke, Wolverine, or even Jean which they fit in this category, but there is a big difference, they are worse than Polaris.

And your last panel, when Polaris returned to Genosha with Magneto to supply him with power and help him keep order, she believed she was doing it for the greater good, but also enjoyed the education in her powers that she received.

I'm sorry but you are not being true or fair to yourself.

Storm comes on the x-books and Lorna leaves to live the simple life with Havok all domesticated.

When she isn't Havok's unmarried domesticated wife. She is... well.

And, then of course mind controlled getting beaten up by electricity... ha. And, just grabbing her and beating her senseless of course even Sabertooth gets in a beating as does Legion.

Of course eventually CC got rid of her Magnetic powers all together and was going to give her a different code name other then Polaris.

Lets recap this era took away her closest friendship with Jean and replaced it with Jean and Storm being best friends. It took away Lorna caring about anything other then Havok and its stated in the background that she cares about rocks too, but nothing really done with that, hell Austen did more with her interest in geology.

If you can't see what happened I will spell it out. You had what is known as a writer viewing two characters in direct competition, they didn't have to be viewed that way, but that is how things evolved.

This sums up the writers view of Lorna during the Golden Age of the X-Men.

One of my favorite characters is Magneto and I love what Claremont did with him, I love what he did with alot of characters, but the best era for the X-Men happened to be by far the worst era for Lorna as a character. If it continued there would be no Polaris Mistress of Magnetism left she would have been solidified with a new power (super strength and negative energy) and a new code name.

I love Claremont as a writer and met the man and talked to him in person, but no writer is perfect and Lorna didn't fit into his X-Men title and what more there is no doubt in my mind he came to see Lorna as she was written in the 60s and Storm in competition. If they went forward with the X-Men West Coast idea in 1981 she would have had a chance those years of something far better. The best time Lorna was written by Claremont in his first run was in Uncanny 146 in July of 1981 when it looked like they were going to have a second X-Men team.

The view of Lorna as a weak nothing character some old time fans have is still rooted in this era.

You put good words to what this storyline from the 70s and 80s could have been. BTW, I agree with you Lorna puts all her heart and soul into projects be they the very few relationships she has or what have you. But, at the same time, my message was not Lorna and Storm are necessarily rivals or have to be rivals, they shouldn't be. But, then there is the reality of what happened.

#3 Edited by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

@jmc247: You're not a fan of Polaris... you're a hypocrite. Those were purifiers and is what they do... kill mutants and they fired at her first and she was protecting the douchebag, Cyclops, that robot guy is not really human and he was going to hurt havok plus he went to their place attacking them first, I forgot the purple chick's name, but she never killed her. Those were aliens who was following Vulcan's orders who sent them to kill and destroy them (their ship) or you prefer the blown ship was them (starjammer). That creature wasn't a nice guy, Polaris and Quicksilver are not the first or last having family conflict (plus she was drunk during that panel). And yes... what would you do if someone is trying to kill you jmc? Don't tell me you wouldn't defend yourself which was her point of her father being right. Clearly you're not a Polaris's fan and saying you have a Lorna Appreciation thread only to tear her down. What a hypocrite you are. Why don't you post all the good things she's done and the reason for her anger? Don't troll her down only because you're not a true fan. You hypocrite.

Now you are arguing something entirely different that yes she has killed people, but it was justified. That is something very different then arguing what you were that Lorna is an X-Men who doesn't kill and never has and is also philosophically a Xavierite.

Realize Magneto and Wolverine are the two most popular characters the X-Men have by far and away. And, one of them kills people all the time with his claws and the other has become popular in no small part because his actions constantly brings up philosophically questions of when does the ends justify the means.

Writers using Lorna to raise questions of when using lethal force against threats is not a bad thing. Sometimes writers have done it and clearly showed she was in the wrong like wanting to end Nurse Annie over a romantic disagreement or attempting to shoot Pietro in a drunken angry fight. There you can understand where Lorna was emotionally coming from, but also know her actions at the time were clearly not justified.

But, most of the time its not so simple, was Lorna being willing to use lethal force against SHIELD commandos in first run X-Factor who were trying to capture her to brainwash her as a weapon against Magneto morally wrong?

I would in fact argue it was very much justified under the doctrine of self preservation as well as acting against unjust legal authority.

I think most people would agree as well other then hard core heroes never kill supporters. But, sometimes it is more ambiguous, was Lorna fighting to help Magneto keep and regain control of the island nation of Genosha morally justified?

Magneto's government was an unjust dictatorship, but arguably who she was fighting against was morally worse a dictatorship of human's who use mutants as slaves and keeping more radical factions of Magneto's regime like Cortez in line and out of power. Of course it also brought up other moral questions like was fighting the Avengers coming to Genosha to undermine Magneto's legal authority justified?

Moral questions that aren't black and white are half of the bread and butter of the X-Men as a concept along with minority group issues being the other half.

Lorna as a character isn't a clear symbol of ends justify the means the way her father is at the same point she isn't a symbol of the X-Men don't kill other then in extreme life or death circumstances to save themselves or others. Her being in a fuzzy middle ground isn't a bad thing, it in fact is one of the more interesting thing to happen to the character over the past two decades.

Lorna exists in a hard place because Storm and other Claremont created x-woman took her place as X-Men so what makes her stand out and what makes her relevant? In 1991 she didn't stand out and wasn't relevant. Lorna being philosophically different from the X-Men gave her somewhat of a nitch, but is always difficult as she goes too far in one direction she runs the risk of feeling like a B squad version of dad and she goes too far the other way she runs the risk of feeling like a B squad version of Jean.

So, its something that has to be finessed very well which alot of writers can't do as to most writers they see Lorna not having a very clear line of what she will and won't do in a particular circumstance the way Magneto or the Xavierite X-Men have. Magneto has enough history that unless he is power mad he is relatively predictable in a given circumstance. Lorna's history over the decades has been much more uneven regarding her underlying views and different writers tend to pick and choose from various eras for the character.

But, to sum it up, Lorna being philosophically different then the mainline x-women is not a bad thing, it is in fact one of the few features of the character that separate her from the rest of them.

#4 Edited by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

@uhypocrite said:

@adamtrmm: @jmc247: Let me make it clear that Polaris and Havok are the least to be compared with Storm and Cyclops. I Think Storm and Cyclops would be a perfect fit to join the X-Force (since Cyclops created the team... the assassin team) since Cyclops don't see the world like he used to or unlike the X-M. Storm killed before and Polaris never did. Cyclops has killed before also, I mean, his mentor (HELLO). Both have the rages of becoming the perfect weapon for the X-Force.

Storm and Cyclops killed before and Polaris never did?

Polaris has been through a mass genocide, she has led the Genoshan army into war, she has waged war in space blowing up star ships filled with thousands of sentient beings, she has waged war on a massive scale and lots of casualties are apart of war.

When it comes to looking at the things Lorna has done the question is not has she killed. She has one of the larger body counts of the x-characters out there. The moral questions come in regarding when is justifiable or not.

Sometimes its a philosophical decision on her part and sometimes it is simply anger management issues. Sometimes its a little of both.

#5 Posted by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

@noctum said:

@stormweatherwitchgoddessqueenx: That's bull. It's not confirmed anywhere and Polaris in comics didn't start like that. (So, I don't know where you getting that from. If so, I would like some link)

She is also very kindhearted, helpful and considerate towards the people around her.

Many times she wanted to wash her hands off the X-men's business, but every time they needed help she would definitely be there for them even if she has her reservations.

She is a great help and a valuable asset of the X-men! She does believe in Prof. X's cause for coexistence, which explains why she did work with the X-men in the first place. I guess the never-ending fights have worn her out, but that has not stopped her from being the X-men Polaris she is today. The only difference is that sometimes she needs to get away from the chaos and madness of the cruel reality. Polaris is really quite a simple girl who wants to lead a normal life like most mutants. She enjoys leading a peaceful life and spending her time with the love of her life. Storm on the other hand, acted with jealousy and killed her husband (in order to steal the crown) and other people before. She can easily be what you're describing. She was the God of thief to begin with.

You described Claremont's Lorna very well, but not the Lorna before him or after him.

Claremont turned Lorna into what I can only called the anti-Storm, but she was a much tougher and edgier character in the 60s.

Obviously, the change wasn't all Claremont's doing she appeared in 1968, but editors in 1969 decided to retcon Lorna's parentage and then when X-Men ended she was dumped off with Havok. But, in the end this is what Claremont turned her into... the anti-Storm.

That is not the Lorna that lasted into the 90s though. Honestly she was on the path to returning to her roots as a tougher character even by 1993.

Lorna being philosophically in terms of mutant rights and using lethal force on threats different from the mainline X-Men was something from the 60s that went away for a long time and came back in the 90s and really reared its head last decade. The same occurred for her connection to Magneto being re-established.

Modern Lorna is IMHO has grown into an interesting character because she doesn't see the world like the X-Men and not simply not seeing the world like the X-Men because she wants to live the simple life with Havok.

#6 Posted by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

Polaris Tunneling. And I don't think I ever saw Magneto (or anyone) doing this kind of ability.

Magneto has done it through in an underground base beneath a volcano as we saw in Uncanny X-Men 113.

As for Lorna's power and skill level it varies wildly per writer and ever per run with the same writer as a poster above talked about. The space arc was probably the high point of showing her pure power feats, mind you she didn't use her skills in any advanced way in the space arc, but her power level was what you would expect dealing with cosmic threats.

Then on PAD's X-Factor Investigations she was toned down power wise, but still kept about the same level of skills she had before. Her skills actually dropped to pure metal bending on ANXF so unlike that poster I wasn't exactly happy with Lorna the metal bender.

I would say X-Factor Investigations Lorna was roughly as powerful and skilled as 1993-1998 X-Factor Lorna. Magneto taught Lorna on on Genosha created a fairly large boost to first her skill levels and then after the Genoshan genocide we saw a fairly big increase in her power levels as well. I mean think about her wedding and her taking out all those X-Men and Avengers and that was still Lorna holding back somewhat as made clear in the comic she could have killed them all, but was only after Nurse Annie and Havok. During Milligan's era the overall skill and power level decreased. During Brubakers the skill level decreased, but the power level increased again.

In the end Polaris can manipulate electromagnetism like Magneto, because she is younger she may even have a higher power potential overall for what her body limits are, but in terms of raw power both are limited to what the human body will tolerate without dying in the process. Magneto in issue #18 of Magneto is planning on trying to do that to destroy the other universe.

At the end of the day Lorna's a powerhouse who often doesn't get to show it off because she is rarely an A list X-woman. X-Factor which she has been on many times over the years doesn't tend to be the best place for such feats, talking about them, but not showing them. She hasn't gotten to be a major antagonist for a story arc. A minor antagonist or brainwashed villain sure, but not the big bad that the X-Men and Avengers have to face the way Magneto has many times. That is why along with some real terrible showings during the 70s and 80s the image endures among many usually older fans of her being a joke when it comes to powers and skill levels.

#7 Posted by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

Its the end of the world as we know it... and I feel fine.

It seems as good a time as any for a family reunion which provides some of the more heartfelt scenes Magneto has had in quite some time. It shouldn't have taken 15 years in the 616 comics since the last emotional reunion between Lorna and Magneto to have another full fledged one that actually deals with issues between them, but its good to finally see it take place before the end. Bunn really manages to so far nail what had made Lorna and Magneto's relationship interesting and unique from his historic ones from the twins whose family connections to Magneto and Lorna were rendered defunct for the time being which is certainly something in the background likely also weighing on both Lorna and Magneto.

The Magneto deals with his back story with Namor going back to the Silver Age Brotherhood days to the modern era. Namor acts the catalyst for how Magneto feels he must see this war as one where the other worlds are genocidal foes.

Continuity points: For this issue there are plenty and handed out for this issue for references to Lorna and Magneto's time on Genosha as well as Lorna's Malice era affiliation with the Marauders close and of course seeing the original Brotherhood meeting Namor.

Lorna mentions to Magneto she would have like to have seen this time where the new Genosha could have gone... and Magneto mentions you still can. The masses stand around as virtual spectators basically putting their hopes in Magneto to save their world. Magneto plans on basically going on a suicide mission to save the Earth by destroying the other and in the end we see rather advanced sentinels appear from the alternate Earth.

This issue was on fire by in large and we get to see Magneto in a role this time as defender of the whole world mutants and humans. The artistic visuals were for the most part quite well done in getting down the emotion and the gravity and scope of the situation as well as depicting the emotional filled scenes early on. Yes, some are unevenly done, but it didn't take away from the comic that much from me. The seven pages of flashback with Namor were perhaps one too many, but they still added to the story and gave it its background. The public response to Magneto was interesting as the old saying goes people will latch onto anyone to save them and their family and historically that has been the case.

We see Magneto's legacy playing out in this final arc... is this all leading to an end for Magneto or a new beginning? We don't know yet.

In all this was a great issue, a must buy for the week and if the next few issues lives up to what in my view is its current potential it could go down as one of the top Magneto mini story arcs in quite a few years.

#8 Posted by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel retconning away more then half of his family I am sure had an impact as well.

#9 Posted by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks great so much emotion.

#10 Edited by jmc247 (142 posts) - - Show Bio

: I hope Loma has a decient role in this as well.