By jloneblackheart 81 Comments
I know. It's been done. Don't know why I'm stirring the pot.
Once upon a time, I believed Goku would easily defeat Superman. Embarrassingly enough, it was my first post on this site. But I was shown the light. Over time, I have given this more thought, read hundreds of threads, and finally got inclined to write my thoughts out for what will most likely be the most responded to topic I have ever made.
I would also like to say that I LOVE Dragon Ball Z. I have all the manga and the anime. I would still love to tell you Goku beats Superman, but unfortunately, I cannot.
So let's begin, shall we?
Power Levels vs Feats
There is no way to quantify how strong, fast, durable, etc. a DBZ character is by using power levels. This usually ends with an overly long post trying to calculate these stats, only to have begun with an assumption in the first place. Your calculations mean nothing.
There is no way to know what the multiplier is any way between levels, and it was never stated that all attributes are increased by x amount between levels, or even that all attributes increase in the same manner. Plus, they stopped using power levels after Frieza anyway.
Meanwhile, comics have actual on panel feats (continue to notice this trend please), showing exactly how strong, fast, etc. they are. Just saying this guy is faster than this guy, who was faster than this guy means only one thing: it is still unknown how fast they actually are.
There are very few strength feats in DBZ. Goku once lifted 40 tons (although easily in SSJ form). Notice I said 40, not 40 times 10 because there is no proof at all the Other World is 10x gravity like King Kai’s planet. In fact, there is evidence to prove otherwise.
Some will use the 100x gravity training to calculate strength. That’s fine I suppose, but high tier characters like Thor, Superman and Silver Surfer casually fly through black holes, which have gravity approaching near infinity.
Comic characters have on-panel feats saying exactly how much they are lifting, or showing strength of moving something that has at least an estimated weight to get you in the ball park. Not just a big rock.
There is absolutely no on-panel feats saying Saiyans are faster than light. Period. Also no distance or time references other than Snake Way, which puts them over the speed of sound, but nowhere near the speed of light. Beyond that, see the power scaling above.
Also, comparisons might be made to say they moved faster than an energy technique. Energy does not travel at the speed of light. I don’t care what the name of the technique is.
My personal favorite is “Piccolo destroyed the moon in less than a second!” Um, where did is give that time frame exactly? Oh, because it took a second to look at the next panel? Makes sense.
Meanwhile, comic characters have on panel feats with distance, time, speed and reaction times.
DBZ does appear to have excellent reaction times though, but to counter this, please keep reading to the “Durability” section. On top of that, they sense those extremely fast movement by sensing Ki, not by actual sight. Comic character (well most) do not use Ki energy. When they start moving fast, can the DBZ character keep up? I doubt it.
Finally. We get to something that DBZ definitely has going for it. Massive amounts of energy with incredible destructive power.
Alas, this is not something uncommon for high tier comic characters to deal with and dish out themselves. Most can easily destroy planets in the same manner (no power up required) and herald level can easily destroy stars and beyond.
Ki Manipulation vs Energy Manipulation
While Ki is a type of energy, it is not the same as the other types of energy. There is no reason that a Saiyan should be able to just hold a blast from the Silver Surfer, or push back some heat vision from Superman. It’s not Ki.
Meanwhile, high level energy manipulators in comics should easily be able to manipulate Ki.
Most high level comic characters have much more than just strength, speed and fighting ability. Ice breath, teleportation, intangibility, magic, invisibility, telepathy or telekinesis, radiation, time travel, matter manipulation – the list goes on and on. Most of the DBZ characters have little to no defense for.
DBZ characters have over time shown some different versatility (usually villains), but usually not at the levels of Silver Surfer or Martian Manhunter.
Kind of goes both ways here doesn’t it? DBZ debaters will say fights go on a long time, but when you point out how long it takes them to power up, they say the fights happen really quickly. So which is it?
Again, comics have those pesky on panel feats. Most high tier characters have near unlimited endurance and do not require rest, food or water.
This was always the kicker for me. The biggest thing for me when I see these battles is that DBZ characters do not show a high level of durability or invulnerability. They usually get beaten and broken fairly easily when someone has a higher power level.
You know how it’s always brought up that DBZ characters can easily destroy moons and planets? Well so can high level comic characters… WITH THEIR PHYSICAL STRENGTH. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a Saiyan can take a hit like that from Thor or Superman without crumpling into a pile of goo.
This should make it all the more evident that, since DBZ characters have never shown physical strength even moderately compared to this, that high tier comic characters are MUCH more powerful physically and MUCH more durable.
I'm sure I've convinced no one and undoubtedly, I didn't end this age old discussion, but if I converted one of you, I returned the favor to the one who turned me.
I still love DBZ to death. It's a great story with great characters. Even more so that a lot of comics that are popular. But it is inconsistent and cannot be placed on the scale with the Big Two.
I always thought, "Where would I put Goku in the power ranking?" That's a tough answer. I feel like they are on a power level all their own, just above, say Iron Man level, but below Superman level.
I guess the debate will never end, but I just wish everyone would be a little more reasonable. If you really think Goku can beat Galactus, you should read some more comics.