Why your DBZ Character loses to High Tier Comics Characters

Goku vs Superman

I know. It's been done. Don't know why I'm stirring the pot.

Once upon a time, I believed Goku would easily defeat Superman. Embarrassingly enough, it was my first post on this site. But I was shown the light. Over time, I have given this more thought, read hundreds of threads, and finally got inclined to write my thoughts out for what will most likely be the most responded to topic I have ever made.

I would also like to say that I LOVE Dragon Ball Z. I have all the manga and the anime. I would still love to tell you Goku beats Superman, but unfortunately, I cannot.

So let's begin, shall we?

Power Levels vs Feats

Yes please, just take that thing off

There is no way to quantify how strong, fast, durable, etc. a DBZ character is by using power levels. This usually ends with an overly long post trying to calculate these stats, only to have begun with an assumption in the first place. Your calculations mean nothing.

There is no way to know what the multiplier is any way between levels, and it was never stated that all attributes are increased by x amount between levels, or even that all attributes increase in the same manner. Plus, they stopped using power levels after Frieza anyway.

Meanwhile, comics have actual on panel feats (continue to notice this trend please), showing exactly how strong, fast, etc. they are. Just saying this guy is faster than this guy, who was faster than this guy means only one thing: it is still unknown how fast they actually are.

Strength

There are very few strength feats in DBZ. Goku once lifted 40 tons (although easily in SSJ form). Notice I said 40, not 40 times 10 because there is no proof at all the Other World is 10x gravity like King Kai’s planet. In fact, there is evidence to prove otherwise.

Some will use the 100x gravity training to calculate strength. That’s fine I suppose, but high tier characters like Thor, Superman and Silver Surfer casually fly through black holes, which have gravity approaching near infinity.

Comic characters have on-panel feats saying exactly how much they are lifting, or showing strength of moving something that has at least an estimated weight to get you in the ball park. Not just a big rock.

Speed

There is absolutely no on-panel feats saying Saiyans are faster than light. Period. Also no distance or time references other than Snake Way, which puts them over the speed of sound, but nowhere near the speed of light. Beyond that, see the power scaling above.

Also, comparisons might be made to say they moved faster than an energy technique. Energy does not travel at the speed of light. I don’t care what the name of the technique is.

My personal favorite is “Piccolo destroyed the moon in less than a second!” Um, where did is give that time frame exactly? Oh, because it took a second to look at the next panel? Makes sense.

Meanwhile, comic characters have on panel feats with distance, time, speed and reaction times.

DBZ does appear to have excellent reaction times though, but to counter this, please keep reading to the “Durability” section. On top of that, they sense those extremely fast movement by sensing Ki, not by actual sight. Comic character (well most) do not use Ki energy. When they start moving fast, can the DBZ character keep up? I doubt it.

Energy Projection

Finally. We get to something that DBZ definitely has going for it. Massive amounts of energy with incredible destructive power.

Alas, this is not something uncommon for high tier comic characters to deal with and dish out themselves. Most can easily destroy planets in the same manner (no power up required) and herald level can easily destroy stars and beyond.

Ki Manipulation vs Energy Manipulation

While Ki is a type of energy, it is not the same as the other types of energy. There is no reason that a Saiyan should be able to just hold a blast from the Silver Surfer, or push back some heat vision from Superman. It’s not Ki.

Meanwhile, high level energy manipulators in comics should easily be able to manipulate Ki.

Versatility

Most high level comic characters have much more than just strength, speed and fighting ability. Ice breath, teleportation, intangibility, magic, invisibility, telepathy or telekinesis, radiation, time travel, matter manipulation – the list goes on and on. Most of the DBZ characters have little to no defense for.

DBZ characters have over time shown some different versatility (usually villains), but usually not at the levels of Silver Surfer or Martian Manhunter.

Stamina

Kind of goes both ways here doesn’t it? DBZ debaters will say fights go on a long time, but when you point out how long it takes them to power up, they say the fights happen really quickly. So which is it?

Again, comics have those pesky on panel feats. Most high tier characters have near unlimited endurance and do not require rest, food or water.

Durability

This was always the kicker for me. The biggest thing for me when I see these battles is that DBZ characters do not show a high level of durability or invulnerability. They usually get beaten and broken fairly easily when someone has a higher power level.

You know how it’s always brought up that DBZ characters can easily destroy moons and planets? Well so can high level comic characters… WITH THEIR PHYSICAL STRENGTH. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a Saiyan can take a hit like that from Thor or Superman without crumpling into a pile of goo.

This should make it all the more evident that, since DBZ characters have never shown physical strength even moderately compared to this, that high tier comic characters are MUCH more powerful physically and MUCH more durable.

Conclusion

I'm sure I've convinced no one and undoubtedly, I didn't end this age old discussion, but if I converted one of you, I returned the favor to the one who turned me.

I still love DBZ to death. It's a great story with great characters. Even more so that a lot of comics that are popular. But it is inconsistent and cannot be placed on the scale with the Big Two.

I always thought, "Where would I put Goku in the power ranking?" That's a tough answer. I feel like they are on a power level all their own, just above, say Iron Man level, but below Superman level.

I guess the debate will never end, but I just wish everyone would be a little more reasonable. If you really think Goku can beat Galactus, you should read some more comics.

82 Comments

Marvel NOW! = Cosmic Reboot

I've been holding off for a while on this, mostly to be sure and partial denial, but it is now apparent to me that Marvel NOW! is a complete reboot of the Marvel cosmic genre.

Starting with Marvel Point One, we got a new Nova. Not Richard Rider. No explanation. Then the Guardians of the Galaxy and Thanos appeared in Avengers Assemble. Let's look at some of the details.

  • Starlord died at the end of the Thanos Imperative. He is inexplicably back, and now blonde.
  • Thanos died at the end of the Thanos Imperative. He is inexplicably back.
  • Nova (Richard Rider) died, along with the Nova Force, at the end of the Thanos Imperative. He is NOT back. Apparently the Nova Force is.
  • Drax died during the Thanos Imperative. He is inexplicably back.
  • Cosmo, Mantis, Major Victory, Jack Flag, Bug and Moondragon are not on the team any longer.
  • Neither are Phyla or Adam Warlock, but they are dead and I guess stayed there.
The New Nova

With Nova, we all know that the argument is Richard Rider was left dead out of "respect," yet I guess there is no respect for Starlord or Thanos. Nova was replaced by Jeph Loeb as an homage to his son, who tragically passed away. So in Richard's place we get Sam Alexander and an entirely new Nova Corps, but no explanation of how that is possible as of yet.

I don't object so much to this as much, because after all, the Nova Corps is an intergalactic police force with many members. I would like to know how the Nova Force survived. I guess there is still time for explanation. I am a giant fan of Richard Rider and since Annihilation he has made some huge growth. It's a shame he had to go, but I can accept it. Problem for me is, I don't care for kid heroes, and if I wanted to read about a smart ass on Earth, I'd read Spider-Man.

My biggest issue with the reboot is Guardians of the Galaxy. See any relation to who is back and who is not? Ding Ding Ding! They are all in the upcoming movie! This is a great example of how these movies can hurt the comics for the existing fans. It's obvious this isn't little tweaks to continuity like we are seeing with the Avengers and such. This reboot was manufactured specifically for this movie.

I could tell when the Thanos Imperative began that something was up. Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy were put on "hiatus" for the event, but most of us weren't fooled. Soon, characters were getting killed off left and right and then, boom. No more Marvel Cosmic.

Starlord the Blonde

So fast forward and we get their return at the pen of Bendis. He brings the Guardians back, leaving out non-movie cast, and resurrects Thanos and Starlord with no explanation. Thanos inexplicably tries to DO THE EXACT SAME PLAN for domination he tried so long ago with the cosmic cube. You know, because Thanos is dumb. Then without the cube, gets his ass handed to him by the GotG and the Avengers, like he was a bank robber or something. So not only is he dumb, he's weak too. Great set-up for Avengers 2! What a threat!

I won't even get into him thinking the In-Betweener and the Stranger are Elders of the Universe.

So, it all hit home after reading Guardians of the Galaxy #0.1, where they rebooted Starlord's origin. Nothing too damaging, but it will obviously omit much of Starlord's classic stories.

To top it off, even with a reboot for the team, they still don't think it will be enough so they throw Iron Man in there. You know, because he's popular. So now the rebooted Starlord can take a back seat to Tony Stark.

GotG with Iron Man & Borg Groot

Oh, and Groot now has glowing things inside him. Wut?

I'm reading mostly positive reviews from new readers who have no experience with the wonders Abnett and Lanning did with the characters. So I guess that was the goal. Hope you can keep them coming, because you lost me.

41 Comments

Hickman's Fantastic Four (2009-2012)

I just finished reading FF #22 and Fantastic Four #611, both of which were great reads, and was overwhelmed with the sadness that Hickman's run is coming to it's end. Three years ago, Hickman embarked on an extremely complicated story involving many characters. While at first even the most seasoned FF reader (myself included) got a little lost with the immensity of the tale, it eventually all rolled together into an amazing, well thought out story that involved and affected every main character in the series, as well as introducing interesting new characters as well.

We still have FF #23 to look forward to, but otherwise that's the end of the line.

I believe Hickman gave the team the shot it needed and showed why the Fantastic Four is such a great team and family. They have heart. "They are a perfect family in an imperfect world." I should hope the team picked up some new readers these last few years so they could see what the Fantastic Four is really about.

I'm at least happy to say that even with all the complexity, nearly everything has been wrapped up before the creative team change. I have no problem saying that after this, Hickman takes a top spot in my favorite writers list. So, thank you Mr. Hickman, it was a 'fantastic' run. World's Greatest Comic Magazine indeed.

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A Milestone

Since I need to make a new current blog since my contest is over, I'll just let everyone know that I reached the milestone in life of marriage on 5/6/12. Now I really feel like an adult. Time to go buy an umbrella.

Start the Conversation

Favorite Fantastic Four Member (Contest)

Contest

Who is your favorite original member of the Fantastic Four? Write a detailed paragraph explaining who your favorite is and why.

Contest ends Wednesday, May 16th at 9PM EST.

Quality submissions will be counted and winner picked out at random.

Rules:

Original Team Members Only

One entry per person (I can see your IP address!)

Must have over 100 posts

Prize

Winner receives a free digital download for the Marvel Comics App (Apple iOS or Android) of:

Fantastic Four: Season One

In Manhattan's most famous skyscraper, the Baxter Building, scientific genius Reed Richards hatches a plan that will change the lives of those he loves most -- and the very course of human history -- in a way no one could have ever imagined. Revisit the story that irrevocably altered comics and pop culture in this all-new graphic novel, modernizing the journey of Reed Richards, Susan Storm, Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm as they travel to the stars -- and return with fantastic, devastating results! Plus: Witness the FF's cataclysmic first battles with the Mole Man, Dr. Doom and Prince Namor, the mysterious Sub-Mariner, in a way you've never seen before. You only think you know the story!

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Marvel Cosmic 2011 Year in Review

I have to say it has been a bleak year in Cosmic Marvel and the glory that spawned from Annihilation seems to have finally fizzled out into random mini-series and many character deaths states of comic limbo.

Quick 2010 Recap

The Thanos Imperative

Coming out of War of Kings, 2010 continued where the event left off with Realm of Kings. This event spawned several minis including the Inhumans, the Imperial Guard and the highly confusing Son of Hulk. The alien species of the Kree and the Shi’ar now united under the rule of the Inhumans after their victory began to investigate the damage – a massive fissure in space-time known as the Fault. This event also had repercussions for all Cosmic characters and involved the ongoing titles Nova and the Guardians of the Galaxy.

The threat of this fissure would escalate to a full blown invasion by the inhabitants of a corrupted parallel universe known as the Cancerverse. Thus began the Thanos Imperative. Unfortunately, with the Thanos Imperative came the cancellation (not announced at the time) of Nova and Guardians, Marvel’s only ongoing cosmic books and the killing off of many Cosmic characters, including Nova, Starlord, Drax, Adam Warlock, Phyla-Vell, the Worldmind (including the entire Nova Force), Magus and Thanos.

The end of 2010 also brought about the Chaos War story arc, which had minimal consequences on the Cosmic scene, but it noteworthy due to – surprise, surprise – another plot device Earth level god becoming an Eternity level being and threat to the universe. Sigh.

Major Stories of 2011

The Annihilators

Annihilators #1

Out of the Thanos Imperative we got a team of the Galaxy’s Mightiest Heroes – the Annihilators. Consisting of the Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Quasar, Ronan, Beta Ray Bill and a new Spaceknight named Ikon, there was little team dynamic. The book was a short mini with a Rocket Raccoon and Groot back-up story (better than the main story), but the book was also priced at $4.99. A great deal for us cosmic fans, but that isn’t going to exactly draw in new readers and help the chances of Marvel Cosmic getting more spotlight.

A second mini was released in the same format called Annihilators: Earthfall. This was definitely a better attempt than the first series and the team started to have more of a foundation. While the book excluded the Silver Surfer (so he could be used in Fear Itself and the Mighty Thor), it did bring back the Magus with a plausible return.

With any luck, we will get more of this as it seems to be improving. It's a solid idea and a great way to get some spotlight on some otherwise hard-to-fit-in characters.

The Fantastic Four

Galactus Destroys Nu-World

As much as I love what Hickman is doing, he really crapped on some Cosmic characters and on some FF history with the corruption and destruction of Nu-World. It seemed to me like the whimsical deconstruction of all passed events on the premise that Galactus was trying to save his future self from death at the hands of the New Defenders. Now, surely Galactus and his incomprehensible intellect knows that changing the past only leads to an alternate future, or simply that the events leading to his demise in an alternate reality are not necessarily to take place in his own reality.

Not to mention, he destroys the planet, yet let’s any who are there escape, some of whom were the ones to destroy him in that alternate future. So, what was the point of this exactly? Either Hickman has got some beef with Millar’s run or he just killed these characters so he could have Galactus mention he is worried about Franklin Richards and the return of his power.

Aside from this, the series remains 'fantastic' and is worth picking up (although it is not necessarily a cosmic title).

The Silver Surfer

Silver Surfer / Norrin Radd

Aside from being in the Annihilators and appearing in the Fantastic Four, the Surfer got his own 5 issue limited series exploring his humanity. It was a touching story that finally brought Norrin Radd back to the cold exterior of the Silver Surfer which we had grown accustomed to since returning as the Herald of Galactus in Annihilation so many years ago.

This series also added a new player to the cosmic mix – the High Evolutionary. Now possessing some of the Power Cosmic, he calls himself the Worldbuilder and plans to make a place for himself in the universe as somewhat of an Anti-Galactus. But we all know, his judgment on perfection is skewed and could possibly result in a great story in the future.

In my opinion, this was the best the Silver Surfer has been treated in a long time. The book was written superbly by Greg Pak and the art was fantastic. A very moving story.

FF

With the death of the Human Torch we see the return of Annihilus and the Annihilation Wave.

The Kree and the Inhumans are also used in the series, giving us a more in depth history of the creation of the Inhumans. This also brings about the Universal Inhumans – four more surviving races of Inhumans also created by the Kree – and they want Earth as New Hala. Black Bolt also inexplicably returns from the dead to lead them (even though it was stated the Fault and Cancerverse collapsed in on itself when Death destroyed the reality).

The interesting development is the Inhumans leave the Kree to lead themselves (with no mention of what is to become of the Shi’ar, currently under their rule as well). Ronan takes command and delightfully, Crystal remains by his side.

The Mighty Thor

Galactus vs Asgard

The only thing I find worse than the neglect of Marvel Cosmic characters is the misuse of them. Matt Fraction does a great job of knocking Galactus down a few pegs and putting him at near Odin level power. I don’t deny Odin’s might, but come on. No planetary level god should be even close to equal the balancing force between Eternity and Death.

Besides having Galactus job a bit and the Silver Surfer condescending and belittling people for the first time in his history, Fraction has the Surfer remain on Earth and his powers will weaken the further he gets from Earth. Don’t worry, it’s not forever… only until all the Asgardians die off. Marvel will kill off Thor in the next couple years or so, right?

On top of this, a Christian pastor becomes the new Herald of Galactus. At the Surfer’s request. Um, yeah, because the Surfer would bestow that burden to someone else with a clear conscience. What bothers me most is that Marvel has completely forgotten about Stardust. She is still the Herald of Galactus, yet hasn’t appeared since Godhunter in 2009. There’s no need for another new herald, he’s already got one!

The Future

Defenders #1

The Silver Surfer is currently appearing in the new ongoing Defenders title, explaining his recent attachment to Earth. Unfortunately, this will also be written by Matt Fraction. Fraction has made some statements regarding his thoughts on the Surfer and his inspiration in Stan Lee’s original run where the Surfer was trapped on Earth. If that is what he is going to attempt to emulate, not only will he fail at doing a better job, but we have also already seen this story. Not only that, but they basically took Marvel's most recognizable and popular cosmic character and put him back on Earth.

Some uncertainty remains for Ronan, who after resurrecting the Supreme Intelligence refused to assist in destroying Earth. This could be a good or bad thing for the characters, since sometimes writers simply use lower tier characters for plot purposes and never have intentions for a future. I have faith in Hickman though. The only confusing thing regarding Ronan is he is saving the Earth in Annihilators: Earthfall and attacking Earth in Fantastic Four/FF at the same time.

New Nova?

The big Point One issue one shot had a Nova story in it by Jeph Loeb. While this was Nova, it did not seem to be Richard Rider. He also made mention of the Nova Corps, so I guess they are still around? The main problem with this is that it was a story to bring the return of the Phoenix Force, which will most likely have nothing to do with the Cosmic universe and simply bring it back to Earth and the mutants. Did I mention the PF killed Terrax in the story? Another waste of a good character. There is also no mention of an upcoming Nova book. Very frustrating.

Galactus is set to appear in the pages of the Fantastic Four and FF and apparently will be battling the Celestials (and possibly Franklin Richards?). Finally, something that looks promising.

Conclusion

I know I sound cynical and bitter, but let’s be honest; it appears that the era has ended. It’s only been going downhill for years now. There are no plans for upcoming Cosmic stories announced and no solicitations through April for any releases. Aside from Hickman’s Fantastic Four and FF, there really isn’t anything going on.

For most Marvel readers, do not fret. There are plenty of new X books, Avengers books and Spider-Man books coming out and continuing. For those of us that enjoy the incredible roster of Marvel Cosmic characters, it appears we may have to wait it out for a bit and hope for the best.

In the meantime, any space action is going to have to be had with DC’s Green Lantern or Legion of Super-Heroes books or with more obscure characters with smaller publishers.

13 Comments

Advanced Review: Avengelyne #6 from Image Comics

I've been lucky enough to get an advanced copy of Avengelyne #6 from the creators.

The Story So Far

Avengelyne by Owen Gieni

If you don't know, Avengelyne is a fallen angel cast down to Earth. Unlike most, she continues to be a devout follower of her Lord and continues her battle against evil on Earth. This is the third and final issue of The Hand of God story arc, where Avengelyne and Special Agent Devlin Trask had just fought Priest, a friend to the church who is apparently possessed, killing criminals vigilante style.

Despite being the final issue of a three issue story arc, this is a good jumping on point for new readers. Any backstory is provided here and there without holding the current story back or being too wordy. Also, just because this is the last of the arc doesn't mean things aren't continuing from here. There are cliffhangers and this will flow directly into the next story.

Spoiler Free Review

Torment - Avengelyne #3

After five issues of setting the stage, supporting characters and plotlines, this issue gives good focus to Avengelyne herself and her good-hearted demeanor. We also get some great interaction between her and Father Peter, setting the base for the type of close relationship they share to new readers. We also see Father Michael visiting Tegan in the mental hospital after her previous encounter with Torment in the Devil in the Flesh story arc (issues #1-#3). This is a very touching scene showing Father Michael's duality.

But this issue is hardly all talk, and after Father Michael finishes his Cathloic priest duties it's time for some vigilante priest duties with a visit to the evil serial killer Ned Crowly - the Torment Killer. When Father Michael becomes the Priest, blood and carnage in the name of God is a guarantee!

On top of this, that foreshadowed great danger seems to be right on the horizon...

Pick This One Up

This has been a fantastic series from the beginning. Mark Poulton is creating a depth to all the characters he is including in the series. Any fans of Rob Liefeld's Extreme Studios characters will enjoy the cameos in the series (such as Chapel, Bloodwulf, the Coven, etc.) and there are plenty more to come. Artist Owen Gieni has a beautiful style and great range, from gorgeous women to the vile demons of Hell. The facial expressions are priceless and the detail put into the backgrounds are amazing. With Dexter Weeks' vibrant colors, the book is currently firing on all cylinders.

The passion in making this a long standing series is there. All it needs now is more readers. I'd urge any of you to pick this up when it comes out. The hardcover collection of the first two arcs is also set to be released on February 1st.

Cover B by Owen Gieni

"THE HAND OF GOD," Part Three

Conclusion to the second story arc! Avengelyne and Passover join Devlin on his exploration of the paranormal and learn more about his secret past with Operation Hellstrike. Meanwhile, Father Michael pays a visit to Torment, Ned Crowley, as he awaits trial! Will Priest tag along for the visit? Plus, an Extreme Origins back-up written by MARK POULTON with art by a guest artist!

On sale 1/11/11 with main cover by Avengelyne creator Rob Liefled and variants from artist Owen Gieni and Cowboy Ninja Viking's Riley Rossmo.

2 Comments

Why Aren't There More Humans on the Other Lantern Corps?

I was thinking about it and I find it a little odd that there are four Green Lanterns from Earth. Out of the entire sector, all are humans from Earth. They always make it out that Earth is special and humans are a unique presence in the universe, so then why aren't humans more present on the other Corps? The only one I can think of is Carol Ferris on the Star Sapphires.

When I look around at the human race, the least present "emotion" I see is willpower. There isn't plenty of rage, fear, greed, compassion, hope, love, etc. on Earth?

(This topic brought to you by the rage inside me.)

45 Comments

Herald No More?

Ready for my rant? Spoilers ahead...

I've been saying it since I begun reading the Mighty Thor, Matt Fraction has no business writing the Silver Surfer or Galactus. First he puts Odin on near equal footing with Galactus and totally misses the character of the Silver Surfer (and Thor I might add), but now he has done some great damage to the character that I originally thought was material in a non-canon book. Apparently, it is not as it states that this book takes place before Fear Itself (but who knows where in the Surfer's timeline).

So if you haven't read Mighty Thor #6, Thor and the Silver Surfer have discontinued their battle for whatever reason and are trying to stop Galactus from eating the Worldheart of the Tree of Life. Who knows why the Surfer changed his mind, but let's just roll with it. Turns out that Loki hid the Worldheart and now they can't find it. So you think they would just leave right? Nope.

The Silver Surfer decides to stay on Earth to guard the seed. Galactus makes Pastor Mike from Broxton, Oklahoma his new herald, the Surfer is given a human form and a limitation - the further from Earth he travels, the weaker he becomes. The entire character of the Silver Surfer (and Fraction's own creation, Pastor Mike), is thrown to the side.

Why would the Silver Surfer, who knows the great burden and sacrifice of becoming a herald of Galactus, offer the position to another person? Why all of the sudden does the Silver Surfer care about one life over that of cosmic consonance and his great duty to the structure of the universe? Why would he think that this amateur man of God could do what he couldn't and find planets for Galactus that wouldn't cost a single life? Why would Pastor Mike betray his God in exchange for the burden of providing worlds for a cosmic being to destroy? Why would Pastor Mike think by leaving Earth and being a herald of Galactus that Broxton would be safe?

If you add these questions to questions like, why couldn't Galactus simply destroy Odin and all the Asgardian Gods with the snap of his fingers and take the Worldheart in the first place, and you basically have an open ended story that's only purpose was to change a non-title character. Really, all we got out of this for the main character was a small bond between Thor and Loki. Otherwise, it just kind of crapped all over the Surfer and Galactus.

I supposed the "tethering" of the Surfer to Earth was done for the upcoming Defenders book and might explain why the Surfer does not appear in the new Annihilators book (disappointing). I have to say, I finally understand why most fans dislike Matt Fraction. Stick to what you are good at Matt, and it isn't Thor or the Silver Surfer.

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