jaywray's forum posts

#1 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

That's your opinion.

However, I'd personally love to know a guy who was even half the man Clark Kent is.

Just because he's not a wise cracking goofball, a dark anti-hero or any of those stereotypes doesn't mean he has no personality.

And how at all would he be annoying to be around? He doesn't TRY to be nice to everybody, that's just how he is as a person.

Can you think of a moment where you were amazed at Supermans conviction?

I actually can't be bothered with this because it's been many posts with many people and it's just taking a lot of time.
I'm not even getting my own point across well probably because I'm trying to get on to the next person.

I take back what I said about people being stupid saying he's the greatest of all time.

Clearly my criticism isn't shared by some.
I personally find him to be possibly the most boring 1 dimensional characters in history to become successful. (Again, aside from some truly amazing side stories)

But Id just like to know, can you think of a moment where Supermans conviction to do good, or to save someone, was of worth to be remembered?

#2 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Is child like innocence and curiosity how you define heroics? Because if it does, you're setting the bar too low. Superman's been seen as a symbol for everything good about humanity for quite some time now. I'm more into the modern comics myself and it's there that we get to see Superman as the iconic naturally good hero he should and deserves to be. If what you say is true, then the only thing I can say to you is that you've missed a trick with what makes Superman tick. Big deal if Goku is pure of heart, he's not a tenth as moral as Superman is. Both their characters are appealing to me but Superman has proved himself over and over and over again that he's a far greater hero than Goku. WIthout Superman, you wouldn't have Goku, anime, comic books or anything else of the superhero genre. Superman is the true benchmark setter and Toriyama based some of Goku's personality on Superman. What does that tell you about the character?

Jesus god damn christ, I never said that's what makes someone heroic, I simply said that's the reason why Goku has inadvertently put others at risk.

" WIthout Superman, you wouldn't have Goku, anime, comic books or anything else of the superhero genre." -

Again with this redundant point people like to make just because something older than something else, here's one for you, look up Philip Wayly's Gladiator, look up some fact about it that Superman is a shameless rip off as well, and hell, I'm sure it's a rip off of something too.
Just because something is successful, doesn't make it good.

"Toriyama based some of Goku's personality on Superman. What does that tell you about the character?"

This is incorrect, Goku was nothing at all like Superman until Z, and even then it's not by any means personality, it's by back story and being as powerful protectors etc.
Although Toriyama had clearly heard of Superman since he'd already made a parody off him in another series of his call Dr Slump (they made have made a dragonball Cameo but I'm not sure if the superman Parody was there).

Please show me any source at all where Toriyama has stated anything about Goku being remotely influenced personality wise by Superman, hell even mention'd at all would be good cause Id like to read it regardless.

Also people seem to think that being truly good is what is truly right, which is wrong.
Doing what's necessary is what's truly right, Superman shouldn't be helping every person with every little thing, people need to learn and grow themselves, hell it's even been talked about that Superman could just be hindering humans because well... "Superman'll do it!"

Again, god damn, listen to me here people, I'm not saying Goku is better, I never said that.
Not once.
I said Superman isn't the greatest hero of all time, you can disagree with me, that's fine, we clearly have different criteria for what makes a hero / interesting person.

If you truly believe that in real life, if you knew someone who was only ever perfectly nice, you'd be good friends with them, then fair enough, good for you. Id find that person boring after a day or two.

#3 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

True. Why would anyone look up to someone who's brave, kind-hearted, has a strong sense of justice, is thoughtful, positive and forgiving?

Id rather be imperfect and interesting, than perfect and boring as hell.

I'm not saying you can't be all those things, no, no not at all.
But if it comes at a cost of any uniqueness other than being those thing like Superman is, id rather not.
Superman is good. That's what he is, he's good.

Let me put it like this, let's do what you guys think I actually want in a hero, lets make Superman relatable.

Strip him of his powers, and what is he? Just a farmers kid through and through, he's a good guy. He's never going to do anything unexpected or interesting, because, that wouldn't be the good guy thing to do.
He's not funny, he's smart to the point he'd just be annoying to be around, he'd be the guy always trying to be nice to everybody, he'd be the most consistent person on the planet.

Id bet a lot of us actually know or knew a few people in our lives who're just the nicest people on the planet, we'd never say a bad word about them, but we'd never ask them for company on a night out because there's never anything new or again ( I use this word often as you can tell) Interesting.

#4 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

I love both Superman and Goku but as to who the better hero is, Superman without a shadow of a doubt. People saying Superman isn't interesting need to go and actually read some of the modern comics to see why they're wrong. Then they can make that decision properly. But Goku has way too many flaws such as his Saiyan instinct for battle outweighing the possible danger or loss of life the new enemy can cause. Superman would never put battling over innocent life. That's why although Goku is heroic, he doesn't hold a candle to Superman.

Have the recent Superman comics changed his personality at all? as in, is he an interesting person?
I don't mean relatable by the way, I mean interesting.
I've read upwards of 300 Superman comics including alternative timeline Superman comics (Where Superman is actually good), from the main timeline I've never enjoyed Superman himself.

Goku is absolute pure of heart, he proved this entirely by going Super Saiyan while using the spirit bomb, he has no Saiyan instinct anymore, he just has a child like innocence and curiosity.
(which I agree inadvertently hinders his hero factor).

I'm not decided on who I think the greater hero of the two is, Goku's personality at time can be the embodiment of heroism, but not always. (Hope of the universe etc)

My issue, if you care to look back, was with the idea that Superman was the greatest Superhero of all time. He is not.

#5 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray said:

@sharkbearagator said:

How the hell do you not like Superman, he's nicer than a boyscout, he's accepting of anyone, doesn't hurt the innocent, gives to charity helps third world countries etc. what is not to like.

It's not that I strictly

dislike

him it's just that he's about as interesting as a .. I can't even think of something to compare him to, he's that boring.

He's that guy at parties, who tries waaaaay to hard to be friends with everyone.

Am I criticizing him for being pretty much perfect? yes, yes I am. It's exactly why he's boring and unlikable.

Superman isn't someone we relate to, he's someone we aspire to be.

He's like the ultimate big brother figure.

Id rather ram my face into a wall repeatedly than have Superman as someone to look up to.

#6 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray: Soooooooooo, back to my original point he's not unlikeable he is unrelateable. Glad to see we are on the same page.

No, he may be unrelatable, but he's also boring.
There are plenty of unrelatable characters in fiction who are at least entertaining and don't have the personalities of that guy at the party, still trying, waaaay too hard.

(I'm just kinda hoping you get what I mean by the guy at the party, if not just say)

#7 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

How the hell do you not like Superman, he's nicer than a boyscout, he's accepting of anyone, doesn't hurt the innocent, gives to charity helps third world countries etc. what is not to like.

It's not that I strictly dislike him it's just that he's about as interesting as a .. I can't even think of something to compare him to, he's that boring.
He's that guy at parties, who tries waaaaay to hard to be friends with everyone.

Am I criticizing him for being pretty much perfect? yes, yes I am. It's exactly why he's boring and unlikable.

#8 Edited by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@debeze said:

bills didnt destroy half of the universe not sure what u guys are talking about

If I'm correct you've seen the movie right?
Do you speak Japanese and happen to know if Piccolo, or any character for that matter says anything about Bills being a Galaxy buster?

#9 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray: He is not suppose to be relate able he isn't Batman or Spiderman who fights crime for thier own reasons such as guilt and the pain of past events he does it because he wants to. He is a suppose to be an icon not someone with issues like you, who care if he can crush a planet with his fist be helps the world out the sincere kindness of his heart.

Just because he isn't meant to be relatable, doesn't mean he has to be about as likable as a dead puppy on Christmas morning.

@jj62 said:

"... This is utterly laughable, forget your obvious bias towards Goku for being a Japanese fictional character.

But anyone on the planet that thinks Superman is the greatest superhero ever created is an utter dunce, he's about as likable a character as a brick wall, mega powerful? Sure, saves a galaxy or two? sure.

Does the reader give a damn about him in the slightest? no."

It's not that I hate Japanese people I'm not racist or anything like that. I just don't like anime at all, and dude Superman is the greatest of all time. Give the man respect, without him none of the others Marvel, DC or anime would exist today without him. He's the greatest and most iconic heroes of all time, right behind him is Captain America. He always does what's right, and stands for truth, justice, honor, etc.

He is the greatest superhero ever invented and that's the way it should be.


A: You're clearly Bias just for disliking anime in general, I don't mind you disliking anime in general, that's your opinion man, but you can't say you're not bias.
B: I do respect what the Superman comics has done for the industry, but THAT doesn't make him the best, it makes him the most successful.
C: Do you always measure of GOOD something is by how well it sells? Surely you must be loving Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga and the likes.
D: I'm not stating Goku is the greatest hero of all time, as many have pointed out that his love of fighting and general good nature has put others at risk before inadvertently.
E: I don't think you can really say who's the greatest hero of all time, if you're talking about accomplishments then there are others who greatly surpass both, but does that make them better?

I personally know a lot of people who read / have read Superman ONLY to keep up to date with major events and hate the actual comics, hell I don't know a lot of people who actually like the comics I'm personally not a big fan of the main timeline superman comics, but some of the alternative Superman comics are some of my favorite fiction of any medium.


#10 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray: Goku has the greater combat speed and has more combat experience also New 52 Superman does not have a lot of significant durability feats and Goku in SSJG form would be a Solar System Buster or above easily as he contains the power of Ultimate Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Vegeta and Pan who has inner potential. Many like to bring up or mention the bench pressing the earth for 5 days feat as a way to describe Superman`s strength however what they forget is that lifting strength is not striking power and that is where Superman is lacking, Goku has the better striking feats.

Oh you're going new 52 only? Hmm, I stopped reading comics for a couple of months, stopped just before Justice League vs Darkseid, so I can't make any judgments, but from what I have seen, Post Crises Supes still wins.