jashro44

@lukehero:

You know I have the utmost respect for you so you know when I mention this I am not trying to be funny, but I've seen you on other threads argue the complete opposite. You mentioned especially we shouldn't use SS vs Thor fights to try and measure Thor's actual combat speed.

(But, I've seen you mention other fights as well, not just Thor vs SS).

Thats because thor doesn't fight just silver surfer. He fights hulk, ulik, mangog, Kurse, all of whom have little to know speed feats. Besides surfer doesn't use his speed in battles. There is conflicting evidence that thor can keep up with surfer. There is no conflicting evidence that Hidan can keep up with kakashi in combat.

That's fair enough, but specifically here. Kakashi dodged, blocked, and evaded almost all(if not completely all of Hidans attacks), plus he did so while being combo attacked by Kakazuko's black minion thing. Then Kakashi was still able to pop up and block the lighting attack from the other minion during the course of the fight in succession.

Hidan still showed no issue keeping with kakashi even when kakuzu and his hearts weren't doing anything. And besides kakashi has the sharingan advantage on Hidan which makes a huge difference. I mean sasuke with the 2 tomo sharingan couldn't even react to KN0 naruto when naruto was blitzing him under water, but when he got the 3 tomo sharingan he reacted to naruto with no issues. Kakashis sharingan is better than part one sasukes.

Manga characters often don't go all out in 1 on 1's when they know there are other opponents to fight and they have to conserve energy. Even though Kakashi wanted to end the entire thing quickly and not let it drag on, he still had to realize he didn't to conserve most of his chakra for Kakazuko who was clearly the bigger threat.

There is no proof of this. Kakashi said he wanted to end the fight quickly. Plus kakashi was using his high level techniques during the fight except for kamui because he hadn't mastered that technique at this point.

IIRC Naruto characters can increase their physicals with their chakra, and so if Kakshi was in 1 pure 1 on 1 fight he should have a clear speed advantage if he put his all into it.

Only specific techniques like the sunshin, or the gates can do this IIRC. Kakashi doesn't need those techniques to be leagues faster than batman....

@lukehero: My bad but that doesn't mean batman will just open up with sonics, gas, and freeze pellets. Besides at close range batman would get caught in the freeze pellets and gas to. And Hidan was able to imaple himself with swords and other blades, and was still conscious after having his head cut off, so he probably has the pain tolerance to tank batmans sonics. Batmans sonics have never taken down someone as resilient as HIdan so I don't see why they would be able to.

That doesn't matter since by the definition of Hidan's own religion he is always bloodlusted.

Bloodlust by definition means uncontrollable desire to kill. Yes Hidan does kill all the time but he will just being going straight for the kill with bloodlust. He isn't going to torture batman first, he'll just go straight for the kill with bloodlust because thats what bloodlust is.

Even when they got in the woods and he was becoming seriously annoyed with Shikamuru at that point. He still stopped to jobber. I'll respond to the rest as needed. But, Batman clearly is getting full knowledge in the OP.

1. He wasn't bloodlusted against Shikamaru.
2. I am pretty sure shikamaru is faster than batman. All ninjas in naruto have super speed basically.

@lukehero:

He has full knowledge so he knows what will work and won't. So if an explosive won't work as you pointed out. Why would he use that?

He only has basic knowledge of Hidan here. He doesn't know everything about Hidan.

Didn't know that, but Batman can still buy himself time. Also I would think Kaksashi has acutal better feats than Asuma. Hidan likes to jobber and toy with people. Batman will have plenty of time to counter.

Kakashi has better speed feats (Asuma doesn't have a lot of showings) but Asuma is in the same tier at least. Hidan is also bloodlusted here.

Enough worth mentioning in my eyes. How can you go full throttle vs someone when you know you have conserve chaka & energy for other possible opponents in the field of play that might attack you?

Kakashi doesn't use chakra to enhance his speed, and kakashi even stated he "can't take his time on this". So Kakashi was actually trying to end the fight as quickly as he could.

He doesn't need to kill, just KO Hidan. What is Hidan's actual speed? Not just fighting people, but his actual quantifiable speed feats?

Again he kept up with kakashi who was going full out. Kakashi said he was trying to end the fight as soon as possible. Yes Hidan is slower than kakashi but not by a huge amount. He is also stronger than kakashi as per the data book, and he has a reach edge in melee

A bloodlusted Hidan is taking batmans head off. There is no distance between them, Hidan is in the same tier of taijutsu as kakashi as per the databook, he showed speed capable of keeping up with kakashi, and with his strength and scythe combined he can take batmans head off.

Knock out gas & sonics should work just fine on Hidan? Does Hidan have any feats vs Knock Out Gas & sonics?

Why would batman use these gadgets right off the bat when he never does this? Why would he have the chance? Hidan is going to have batman on the defensive right away and even assuming batman can keep up with Hidan for a little bit, his entire focus will be on dodging so he wont have the chance to pull out a gadget.

Batman has full knowledge so again, he would know straight from the get go what he needs to do to take Hidan down and what his best option would be.

Because he never does that. The bloodlust argument doesn't work for batman, because his gadgets aren't designed to kill so its not a moral issue as to why he doesn't use them.

Kakashi saying he needs to end the fight quickly is enough to quantify it. Additionally You can sometimes gauge characters on who they fight, if that is the only way to gauge a character. Otherwise every battle thread with characters like Nobody would end with him being blitzed even though he held his own with batman, and did better than people like Ras al ghul, nightwing, etc. Plus manga is written by one writer so there isn't as much PIS involved and there is nothing to really contradict the idea Hidan is as fast as kakashi.

Hidan is a character who is limited to his fights. He didn't have much time to do much more than fight people. So gauging him based on his fights is fine. Besides its not like kakashi wasn't using his speed against HIdan. Hidan isn't as fast as kakashi but he is fast enough to keep up with kakashi.

@lukehero:

Batman has Full Knowledge in the OP, he already knows fistacuffs isn't getting the job done here. Also Batman is Bloodlusted in the OP, so what he would normally do doesn't matter.

That doesn't mean he will start out with tossing freeze pellets, sonics or gas. He might try his tazer, an explosive or a regular batarang.

Batman can grapple upwards to put space between himself and Hidan.

He wont have the chance.

Yes, Kakashi may be, but you have no way of proving Kakashi & Hidan were equals in speed. You said he could keep up with Kakashi as a measuring stick for his speed, but there is context to that fight which is why it in fact does matter. The only real measuring stick for his speed is knowing he is as fast or a bit faster than Asuma(who shouldn't be a as fast or as skilled as Kakashi who is his better).

Asuma is actually ranked to be as fast as kakashi is in databooks. There isn't nearly as much context to that fight as you are making it out to be. Besides its not like kakashi was splitting his focus between HIdan and Kakuzu the whole time. Hidan went one on one with kakashi briefly:

Gallery

He doesn't need to be as fast kakashi to be faster than batman.

I don't really remember anything Asuma did that would put him above Batman's combat speed. Although Hidan has basic knowledge of Batman here, he still tends to toy with people & jobber, and both those things would give Batman plenty of time to grapple up wards and start spamming gadgets.

Again Asuma in data books is ranked in the same speed level as kakashi.

He doesn't normally have bloodlust & full knowledge either. He already knows it would be foolish to confront Hidan directly because of Hidan's special blood ritual.

He doesn't need it to use any of those gadgets. Ice pellets, gas, and sonics are not designed to kill by batman.

@indomitableregal: IIRC in court of the owls against the talons he wasn't just spamming ice pellets. He might use gear during the fight but I don't think he will just open the fight tossing his best gadgets at Hidan right away. He just doesn't fight like that.

Batman doesn't just randomly throw sonics, freeze pellets, or even knock out gas. That and distance isn't specified so they begin up close as per default battle forum rules. Kakashi having to watch his back doesn't mean much here because kakashi is way faster than batman.

I doubt Ras can deflect all of hawkeyes arrows to close the gap. Look at how many arrows he fires in the middle panel

He fired them so quickly that the target actually broke.

Hidan did tank Kakuzu's wind blast attack. I don't think batmans standard explosive are powerful enough to put him down, and thats assuming he can tag someone who kept up with kakashi.

@dewin50: I didn't notice your comment (don't recall it showing up in my inbox). With that said I am fine with agreeing to disagree, good debate. Just going to say one thing to someone else:

The argument is batman has tanked explosions without a scratch. If you want to prove Roys fire can melt batmans armour prove it.