Oblivion. I've always thought the endless we're overrated.

Oblivion

Oblivion. Death isn't coming for him - and I believe it was stated that Oblivion would take in everything at the end, including Death. The fact that a mere aspect of Oblivion destroyed 98.7% of the multiverse, was incapable of being fought against by Eternity and made Death leave the reality is telling. Oblivion stalemated Infinity in a fight and it also appears that he is more powerful than Cyttorak, considering how he killed Juggernaut without any form of interference with Cyttorak:

And really, Death can't do anything to Oblivion.

@lol said:

I don't think the Endless are that overrated.

@jwwprod:

I've seen people arguing that they can beat the Living Tribunal and PR Molecule Man, that makes them pretty overrated in my book, considering there feats.

@eternityx said:

Yea I will have to disagree with them on that part.

Bump.

I doubt the Endless are overrated, but by nature, Death can't do anything to Oblivion, so it would be a stalemate at best. I'd put Oblivion above Death though, and by nature Oblivion does supersede Death as well.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with JediXMan putting Marvel's Death beneath the Endless Death.

Oblivion is quite possibly one of the most powerful abstracts of Marvel... i cant see him losing here

I don't recall saying that. What I said was that Endless Death = Marvel's Death, due to the fact that (if memory serves) Endless Death is every version of Death, in every universe. So if Marvel's Death is above Oblivion (which I am not sure of), then same would be true for Endless Death.

Considering the Oblivion is more or less the embodiment of entropy rather than non-existence, I would say Death should win. Partly because she is according to Destiny meant to be the last thing in this Creation, which should make sense as something can decay to a point and then some form of death steps in.

That said, if either of them 'kills' the other, another version will just appear to replace them since the universal factory has to keep going (assuming they don't take Creation with them).

Death

@jedixman: I think you said that in another thread, actually, or something, but I'm probably wrong.

Oblivion fought evenly with Infinity, though, so he would probably be superior to Death.

She is not and she has never been. Abstract by themselves balance each other out, they are personal embodiment of concept. Infinite time vs finite life (Eternity vs Death), and creation vs nothing (Infinity vs Obvilion). They cant be more powerful than each other.

That being said either of the abstract are packing some of the scariest power in marvel. A fraction of Death's power turned into a bomb, called life bomb were capable of destroying the whole universe and re-creating a new big bang, with one of the bomb going off on panel and destroying 1/5 of the universe. At the end of the story Death casually repars everything without breaking a sweat.

Death also easily pwned the entire cancerverse crew, including the Galactus engine who single handedly fought and was getting the better of entire Celestials host + Galactus + 2 others Galactus level beings, and Death with 1 gesture destroyed the Cancerverse Galactus engine and beings who were said to be bigger and more powerful than Galactus engine.

What i am trying to say is, being embodiment of the death of the universe might improve Death of Endless's improtance in a cosmic hierarchy it doesnt automatically give her superior power than Death in 616 reality. But alas i do not really know what Endless are actually capable of , so you are welcome to correct me.

I'm thinking Oblivion or a stalemate.

Deaths main power is the ability to kill. Unlike marvels death, or some gods of death who fires energy beams or whatever.

That being said, IF oblivion can survive the destruction of his creation, if he really is immortal like death, then stalemate. BUT, if oblivion can be killed, then death wins.

When you fight death of the endless, you do not. No matter how powerful you are, if you can die, then you lose. There is no chances, your either victorious, and stalemate her, or you are dead. Thus this thread is going to be totally irrelevant if both are immortal (being a concept does not make you immortal by the way)

@van_cere said:

Oblivion has never shown that he would die one day.

Oblivion cant really die... hes the end of everything... like when everything is gone Oblivion will remain.

Draw

@serrure: @jwwprod: Okay, then stalemate. Both can not die

Death wins........

Oblivion wins, or stalemate; being erased from existence, is IMO is the step above dying.

@outside_85 said:

Oblivion is also supposed to be the last being in the multiverse, in fact it has already been proven that Oblivion will be the end of the multiverse.

@jwwprod: That going to be mighty hard for him since as long as he is around, Death will still be waiting for him to bite the bucket.

@outside_85 said:

Which will probably be never since Oblivion is completely immortal.

The Endless are complex characters, specially for those power levels, where most characters are as complex as a sheet of paper. Death of the Endless is the very concept of death, in the Vertigo/DC Universe and everywhere else. It has been stated more than once, that she represents not only the death of the living things, but the Universe/ Multiverse. So she is supposed to outlast everyone and everything.

@jwwprod: Then we have a stalemate because so is Death, by the virtue of Oblivion still being around.

But I have to say I think the logics of Oblivion is a bit wrong. As in, if he ,manages to destroy everything else, he will still be around in some way or form, at which point he will destroy himself as thats his job... and Death will be there waiting for him to do so.

@outside_85: This!

While we have never seen Oblivion actually die on panel there are at least 2 stories, off the top of my head, both involving Maelstrom and his prep, where had he not been stopped Oblivion was going to be killed, and resurrected as Maelstrom's inferior.

@killemall: So you confirm oblivion can be killed? Wow, I really did not know that.

Stalemate or maybe death.

^that and

Therese nothing Oblivion can do to death of the endless. fyi Death of the endless >>>>>>>Lady death

also it was stated death of the endless is the death of ideas, concept, being, creation etc.

@killemall: good to know.

^that and

Therese nothing Oblivion can do to death of the endless. fyi Death of the endless >>>>>>>Lady death

also it was stated death of the endless is the death of ideas, concept, being, creation etc.

I thought Oblivion claimed he would take Death and the others at the end?

the thing is death of the endless is anything like lady death. she is both life and death, beginning and ending etc. she didn't claim she actually did that. unless u have presence to allow her to idk wat. she cant be idk wat...defeated? only one she doesnt have with her power is lucifer.not sure if that means he can do anything to her. it just means she cant kill him..or that he was meant to forever leave all of dc behind.

@skyroid: What do you mean she "did that"? You listed what she was, rather than feats, then you claimed that she "did that", which is a bit non sequitur. She did what, exactly?

Also, when was she ever stated to be both life and death? That doesn't really follow anyway because Death is just that, Death, not life. Life and Death are opposite forces. Obviously Death is a greater force, but that doesn't mean Death and Life are one. As far as I know, Death is supposed to be outlast everything else in the the comics, minus a select few characters, but she was never stated to be life itself.

As for being beginning and end, Oblivion has similar claims as well. And, to my knowledge, superior showings. Death has taken the other Endless (including Destiny), and taken the universe, but I doubt that would really be enough. A stalemate at best, to be honest.

That really just appears to be Oblivion taking himself? It's odd, because for anything to be destroyed, it would involve Oblivion, and by philosophical nature Oblivion can't be destroyed since Oblivion is the force that drives that to begin with. Now, you could just argue that the abstract characters of Marvel just don't follow logic, but then, some of the other abstracts do make more sense.

IIRC, originally, in the classic era, Oblivion was just the entropy which caused the death of the universe, or lead to it, which would explain why Infinity could match Oblivion in his own realm. The more recent portrayals seem to depict him more as the actual nothingness or oblivion that his name would suggest.

I believe you need look no further than the 4th or 5th issue of Sandman to know that.

It is the logic the Endless follow, they all have one name, but at the same time they are also responsible for the opposite of that name as one defines or influences the other.

• Death is an opposite/culmination of life, so Death is also present when someone is born, because she has to wait for them to die so she can do her other job. (If we take from Agent Smith: "Purpose of life, is to end." It's something like that.)
• Dream is the opposite of reality
• Destruction is needed in order for new things to be created
• Delight ended up turning into Delirium

But I think people misunderstand how older of the Endless work when compared to Marvel's Abstracts. The Abstracts are all with some vested interest in their own schemes and plots within the universe: like Oblivion actively seeking to destroy everything or Death coaxing Thanos. The Endless on the other hand consider themselves to simply maintaining a specific job, Death for instance doesn't plot with the likes of Darkseid or Trigon to have more people killed, she's busy enough as it is.

@outside_85: Delirium can actually mean great excitement. It could mean mental disturbance as well, if that was what you were referring to.

That only proves Death has influences over life, which should be as with any depiction of Death, not that she is life itself.

The Marvel abstracts are also doing their job. Oblivion's job is to take the universe. He just seems to delight in his work more than the Endless do.

Still, none of this necessarily relates to power.

Well in her case its the disturbed part.

That is true.

Also true, but Oblivion seems a little more 'earthly' as in he has a goal with his existence and he wants to complete it sooner than later. While Death is willing to let things run it's course.

That is ofc also true.

But that said, the Endless are the embodiments of their names for all things at the same time, while looking at the Marvel Death's wiki-page you would be lead to believe she feared she would be 'overworked' if the universe continued to grow and so we ended up with Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet?

@outside_85: Not sure what you're talking about. And the wiki is, after all, just a wiki. Marvel's Death has a tendency to leave situations and thus appear weak, only to return and prove superiority, which was discussed in the first page by Killemall.

I really have them both as equivalent.

@shootingnova: True, but you arent going to wait for me to go out and hunt down every piece of Marvel's cosmic arcana to get the same understanding I have of the Endless. :) (not that I'm going to do that anyways :)

I have to say I have a hard time seeing Marvel's Death as the equal of Endless Death, because Oblivion seems to be overlapping with her field. In the sense that she takes care of the living/breathing things and he takes care of everything else, with Endless Death does both.

@skyroid: All that proves is that she existed before life, not that she is life itself.

You don't need to. There should be enough on this discussion board alone.

Eternity and Infinity overlap as well (in fact, they seem to just be different sides of a coin), but that hardly restricts their power. Their power overlapping is inconsequential so long as their power matches another character, in this case, Death.

Also, your example isn't overlapping at all. If Death does one thing and Oblivion does another, then how does that overlap? And that was mostly in the classic era. In more recent portrayals, they do overlap, because Oblivion seemingly does have power over those that died.

Endless Death's showings, to my knowledge, entail taking the other Endless, and when she took Destiny, she also took the universe. These are good showings, but Marvel Death casually obliterated the Cancerverse, including the Many-Angled Ones and the Galactus Engine which was almost overpowering Galactus and the Celestials and other members that were fighting it, all at once. It's a better showing, to me.

@shootingnova: and yet she was defeated, killed and thanos while being god (omnipresent, omniscience, omnipotent) he absorbed everything and said what have i done without life there can be no beloved death...(not exact word)<i can check my book if u want but i don't do scans..my eyes hurts watching any scans, reading books, comics, manga etc.always print.

yea i read that. celestial look so weak in that comic, galactus engine kill some abstract/celestial(don't remember) .

in that same book. cancerverse eliminated death. to beat them thanos had to bring himself to death(i mean close to dying) to help lady death stop the cancer verse.

repeating things is really annoying so ill copy and paste.