HigorM

Still..

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HigorM

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#1  Edited By HigorM  Moderator

@geekryan:

Team

  • YJ Aqualad (3)
  • Winter Soldier (3)

Queen Consolidated (CW Arrowverse)

  1. Overwatch - Felicity Smoak from Team Arrow provides Wiki knowledge on your opponent's team and the battlefield. She can also hack into the security cameras and lighting systems on the battlefield.
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HigorM

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#2 HigorM  Moderator

@higorm said:
@blackspidey2099 said:

[...] Would love to see a rematch between these 2 though, perhaps with characters picked by both debaters instead of just using a pre-picked team.

yeah me too, maybe a CaV if @chimeroid is up for it..

Oh, 100%, i do feel like you had a handicap, in terms of having to debate a team that you didn't make yourself, which does put you in an awkward position of being "railroaded" into a certain style.

So, yeah, i definitely want to have a rematch, when you have the time, we can talk to organize a match, either 1v1 or team vs team debate, any tier is good for me.

awesome, Iet's arrange that vi PM..

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HigorM

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#3 HigorM  Moderator

[...] Would love to see a rematch between these 2 though, perhaps with characters picked by both debaters instead of just using a pre-picked team.

yeah me too, maybe a CaV if @chimeroid is up for it..

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HigorM

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#4 HigorM  Moderator

@professorrespect: @chimeroid: @cergic:

Cergic. Thank you very much for your time and especially for your detailed vote, I believe you summarized the debate well and I agree. Your vote is what makes debaters want to debate in the first place, after all what's the point of a debate if no one is going to read it? I really appreciate it and I hope to count on your votes from now on.

Congratulations Chimeroid on the victory, more than deserved. You assembled a formidable team and above all you performed commendably and deserve to go to the next stage, I'm rooting for you!

Thank you ProfessorRespect for the opportunity to participate in such a fun tournament, and also for the creativity in putting together the team, it gave me the chance to get to know characters I had little or no familiarity with.

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HigorM

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#5 HigorM  Moderator

didn't know YJ was also using Selene..

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#6 HigorM  Moderator

@chimeroid: that's fine, I don't think it would matter since my last post was far from desirable.

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#7 HigorM  Moderator

@chimeroid: I thought we would have another round but I imagine that would be impossible considering the amount of time wasted on my part. Thanks for your patience and friendly debate, much appreciated, hope we can have another go in the future.

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#8 HigorM  Moderator

@professorrespect: @chimeroid:

Rebuttals // Strategy Breakdown

Gotta say it was refreshing to read a post where there's not much for me to challenge in terms of the validity of feats or strategy. I love almost everything you did. It's just a stroke of bad luck that you ran into my specific build. Let's dive into it.

Thanks, major credit goes to ProfessorRespect who came up with this mad genius team. I'm just a mere instrument, a messenger of the apocalypse that is dealing against this team, something you have done very well so far. Now enough of the silk tearing (flattering each other), let's get to the real deal!

Weaknesses Uncovered

.TAO

Might just be too slow for this fight. Not only does TAO have to go against the Battle Computer, which is of similar capacity but way more specialized for fighting, but your team has to deal with planetary + attacks from amped Thors. "Observing patterns of behavior or preparations for attacks" just might not be enough for a fight that will be as brutal as this one.

I agree that both Thors pose as a real threat for any team in this tournament, but so is Nate Grey. The Shaman X-Man has proven more than once to be a powerhouse, a teambuster, a being capable of dealing with multiple opponents of the highest order. I believe he possess more than enough power, by himself, to contend with your team, even amped.

with a total understanding of TAO's powers, and the battle computer predicting the manipulations TAO will use, it will be very difficult to put in motion that part of your plan.

Understanding TAO is one thing, being able to deal with him is another thing you must prove beyond the "Battle Computer" will know everything and do everything without showing exactly what. Not to mention that the BC possess limitations. Frankly I don't think the BC is on pair with the mental capacity of TAO, let alone the psychic prowess of someone like Nate Grey. Your "Deus Ex Machina" resource will fail as soon as the battle starts. You have 3 major aspects the put in question the capability and viability of the Battle Computer:

Anything moving beyond the processing time of the Battle Computer essentially makes it null and void. Even if it moves just slightly faster than the response time of the user, the Battle Computer struggles to contend and will usually always be overwhelmed. (Grifter and Midnighter #4)

  • Ability to resist and operate against an Omega Level Mutant with near Cosmic levels of Psionic Power;

Scan 1/2- Actual pre-cognitive powers can overwhelm it utterly. For example Afterthought, a being that can see always 5 seconds ahead of everyone via quantum-technology is able to completely dominate Midnighter in combat. He wins after a rematch, but only after prepping beforehand by reinforcing his armor by double it is usually. (Midnighter #9)

  • Fantomex is in play messing with your team and with the Battle Computer from the start while protected.

Scan 1/2/3- As the Battle Computer is software, it can be easily disabled or broken by any half-decent virus. While Midnighter does reinforce his security afterwards, it doesn't really mean this sort of thing can't happen again. (Stormwatch- Team Achilles #6)

Not to mention Thor's afinity with using said instrument, which is completely different from Midgnighter, I don't think is logical to expect the same results considering they are completely different individuals.

I've presented TAO's powers working on both Mr. Majestic (a powerhouse who also possess psionic powers) and Grifter (a dude with intense training against mind based assaults), now here's TAO using his powers on a giant cyborg:

Scan 1/2- Traps Fuji, a giant cyborg, in a discourse based loop that breaks his mind for months. Tao had never met Fuji before, yet he completely messes him up with minimal exposure. (WildC.A.T.s #33)

Scan 3- It is stated after he is found that he is suffering from severe trauma.

The Failed Counter of the Battle Computer?

Yes, I believe it's flawed from your perspective, and without a plan what's the point of having a Battle Computer? You didn't need one if your strategy is simply to just bring the hammer down. To summarize:

Scan 1/2- The Battle Computer doesn't work if the opponent makes no overt move in the first place. This makes such a Computer rather useless when trying to determine non-combat actions and whatnot, namely prep. The Computer never observes such a action in the first place, and as such is incapable of doing anything but waiting. Through Midnighter had seen such a guy in action before in combat, he couldn't replicate such knowledge here. (The Authority- Human on the Inside)

This is exactly what my team will be doing. The BC can't predict prep time, can't work properly for various reasons explained above and will simply not work as intended. <null>

and the Battle Computer itself is a potential counter as it can notice behavioral patterns, including predicting sentences.

You tried to say the BC isn't a big part of your whole strategy but in actuallity it is, as it's the only way you have to possibly counter TAO's powers to directly affect your team, and as already explained it won't work. The other members of my team is just there to prevent anyone from reaching TAO's work, he's the real MVP here, and so far there's nothing you can do to counter him or prevent your team from being affected by his powers that have worked against everyone and everything. The only individual able to protect himself from TAO was a character that had specific and previously built tech, which is something you don't have here. To expect the Battle Computer will do everything, analyze my team and give you the answers is just a major flawed strategy from the start. Being amped just means your team will fight each other to exaustion or just give up the fight entirely, which is something TAO did before as already presented in the first post.

Also, Nate Grey alone has the potention to shut down both Thors rather easily, I mean, Professor Xavier manage to put him to sleep quite easily, and we both know the Shaman is a superior psionic individual.

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I don't think I need to go any further than this. Your team will be overwhelmed from the start, unable to deal with TAO's hax mind, Nate Grey powefull psionics while also being affected by Fantomex misdirection and both Selene and Thorn magic.

I mean, on one hand, we have a team with members that fight "Giganta", and present it as an awesome feat,

You seemed to have understimated Blackbriar Thorn power or ability to contend with the big boys so here's a couple feats to show what he is capable of:

Illusions

Scan 1/2- Fools Superman's senses by pretending to be a civilian, with Etrigan stating that Thorn could have stole his body with a touch if he had got contact (DC Comics Presents #66)

Scan 1/2- Creates a unbreakable wall of vines around Gotham City park, of which he only allows Sups in (DC Comics Presents #66)

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Creates constructs of wood (Underworld Unleashed Abyss: Hell's Sentinel)

Scan 1/2- Overpowers Supergirl in a mess of vines (Teen Titans #51)

Scan 1/2- Overpowers young Alan Scott with wood until his ring develops plot powers to bypass wood disadvantages (Underworld Unleashed- Abyss Hell's Sentinel)

Scan 1/2- Regenerates from a tiny splinter of wood through Alan Scott's body (JSA #16)

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Traps a Green Lantern (Animal Man #16)

Scan 1/2- Traps Steel, Constantine, and Animal Man in his vines, with them only being freed after the Green is manipulated away from him (Animal Man #16)

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Traps Sups in reanimated vines from wood, overpowering him (DC Comics Presents #66)

Scan 1/2- Fights Spectre for a bit before ultimately losing (Day of Vengeance #1)

All Scans/Feats explanations are from PR's Respect Threads regarding mentioned characters

Why I Win?

The combination of Nate Grey and TAO is just too much for anyone to handle.. With telepathy alone he can not only protect but also amp TAO's reach and effectiveness:

Nate Grey reconnects Idris' mind across multiple realities (X-Man #74 )

Also, speed isn't an issue for someone who can travel through realities, so lightspeed won't matter here.

Nate travels from Earth-616 to Earth-998. (X-Man #70)
Nate travels from Idris' home reality to Earth-616. (X-Man #74)

Magic won't work either:

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Understands the nature of magic itself and isn't effected by it. (WildCats- World's End #13)

All your major assets are nullified..

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#9 HigorM  Moderator

@professorrespect: @chimeroid: you can expect my post today, I appreciate the patience and effort chimeroid, I’ll do my best to get this debate into a fair closing.

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