Eisehorn69

@Vance Astro said:

@Eisehorn69 said:

The reasons Marvel gave for transporting T'Challa to Hell's Kitchen during the Black Panther:Man Without Fear arc revolved around their belief that the character needed to be US based so as to interact more with the rest of the statesside based 616 MU.

This was ostensibly done to raisde the characters profile amongst some readers who may have been unable to relate to any stories told outside of the 616 MU's fictional US.

I don't think Marvel really though about how pissed off Daredevil fans felt about having BP thrust into their favored characters book or for arguments sake, how annoyed the Black Panther's core fanbase were at having his solo book cancelled before the disastrous Doomwar and the continued downward spiral of BP's stock in the aftermath of the aformentioned Jonathan Maberry scripted hatchet job on T'Challa, Storm and Wakanda.

In my humble opinion, David Liss did a lot to gradualy repair the damage Doomwar blighted the BP mythos with by managing to eke out an interesting storyline inspite of the ill suited premise of Black Panther:Man Without Fear before going full throttle with Black Panther: Most Dangerous Man Alive which saw a return to a more recognizable T'Challa in the vein of Christopher Priest's characterization of the hero.

Unfortunately, Marvel decided to pull the plug on the character's solo book just as David Liss was gradually working towards returning T'Challa to Wakanda via the Kingpin Of Wakanda storyline.

One is left wondering why Marvel opted to kill a book that was well on the way to returning the Black Panther character to relevance just before launching AvX and the Hickman helmed FF arcs featuring BP and Wakanda which would have provided an excellent platform for crossover stories and a possible raised profile of the BP solo title?

Either way, Marvel seem to be focusing some attention on BP and Wakanda at the moment but as recent scans from AvX land show Namor demolishing Wakanda with tidal waves and atlantean warriors in tow iut remains to be seen how serious they are about portraying T'Challa and his fellow Wakandan's correctly as originally envisaged by Lee and Kirby.

Marvel pulled the plug on Liss' run because it wasn't selling very well.

@Eisehorn69 said:

Kun Lun is a fictional mystical city but aht hasn't prevented Iron Fist from being a staple within the mainstream 616 MU so I fail to see what point you're attempting to make by citing Wakanda's being in Africa has to do with reader interest in the region or the Black panther as a character.

Iron Fist doesn't live in K'un Lun. He lives in New York. So he and Black Panther are of no comparison. Iron Fist almost exclusively operates in the United States, where most superhero activity happens. My point about Wakanda being in Africa is that it's Black Panther's main base of operations. It's part of a continent that doesn't have a strong superhero base so besides when it comes to Black Panther or maybe Storm (depending on what book we're talking about), Marvel doesn't give any attention to that area, they are mostly focusing on what happens beyond the earth itself or what happens in the United States. So the question I am raising is, what incentive does a non-reader have to start picking up Black Panther? He had tie-ins to every major event since House of M. You think anyone who didn't already like the character, remembers his role in any of those events?

@Eisehorn69 said:

As far as I know, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the Black Panther and the foundation for his attendant mythos all the way back in 1966 a full EIGHT years before both Iron Fist and Wolverine who were both introduced as 616 MU characters in 1974 so when you say that the Black panther came into the shared 616 MU "late" you clearly have a very funny idea as to what consitutes as being late.

I don't have a funny idea of what it means to be late, I don't think you understood. Iron Fist and Wolverine were late too. Captain America,The Avengers,Hulk,Iron Man,Thor,Spider-Man,The F4,The X-men,& Daredevil already had ongoing comics before Black Panther was even created. Black Panther's first volume came out in '77. By then most of these books were over 10 years in.

@Eisehorn69 said:

The Black panther's existence as a viable character published by Marvel is all that should matter on a level playing field

I agree.

@Eisehorn69 said:

but when there are some readers and writers who seem to be of the impression that the character needs to be marginalized and depowered constantly due to the ridiculous belief that he's "too powerful" whilst other characters like Mockingbird and Iron Fist are powered up to the nth degree to little (if any) reader complaint then a clear and undeniable double standard would be evident to anyone looking at the matter with unbiased eyes.

I agree with this also. Dwayne Mcduffie spoke about people being ok with Batman fighting Darkseid but not with Black Panther fighting Silver Surfer although both scenarios are ridiculous.

Hmmm, where to start?

I'm not really fanmiliar with the quoting protocols on this site so I'm going to have to do this the hard way. (Drat)

I raise Kun Lun for the simple fact that like the Inhuman's Great Refuge, Namor's Atlantis, Thor's Asgard/Asgardia and (of course) T'Challa's Wakanda it still remains a fictional realm that exists outside of the 616 MU's US.

You can't possibly be arguing that all of these characters are any less able to appear regularly in the mainstream 616 MU because their all overly attached to their respective places of origin?

And even if for arguments sake this was the case that would not prevent any writer worth their salt from being able to craft suitable stories around these characters as has been the case over the past many years.

Most of Walt Simonson's work on The Mighty Thor took place off of Earth but this did not make Thor any less of an interesting character to read about in my humble opinion.

I grew up reading all sorts of Marvel comic books in the 1970's and can honestly say that locale was never something that bothered me as a child, teenager or young adult as I was always more interested in the unusual realms explored by the likes of Adam Warlock, Dr Strange, Thor and the Silver Surfer so maybe I'm a bit biased.

I've never understood this reticence on the part of some readers to be more open minded as far as locale goes due to the fact that I'm a heavy science fiction/fantasy/horror fan and as such, remain open to all sorts of stories regardless of seting. LOL!

Hickman is currently doing a good job handling T'Challa via the FF/FF books and with the developments within the AvX event it will be interesting to see what happens to the Black Panther mythos coming out of that.

The Black Panther's introduction via # 52 of the Fantastic Four back in 1966 is an innescapable fact which I used to counter your position that he was but a late arrival to the 616 MU. There's no arguing that the Avengers, FF, Hulk, X-Men may have come before him as developed characters but Iron Fist, Wolverine and a host of others came after him and still get more major play and exposure than he does.

How does that strike you as being logical or fair?

All in all, I enjoyed your post for the most part and look forward to debating/discussing more with you in the near future.

Peace.

@tal192939 said:

and what about avx?

With the exception of the Hickman penned issue of AvX, BP's appearances in the event have been dire. :smh:

@Vance Astro said:

@RatFace said:

I see what you're saying, but I disagree.

I hate when a writer uses that cop-out, because that's all it is.

You disagree, why? If everything that matters is happening in the U.S. then why would anyone care what's happening in Africa? Black Panther came late. Marvel had already established a strong superhero base in the United States before they even created Black Panther and it's only strengthened over the years. If Spider-Man,Wolverine,Thor,Iron Man,Hulk,Captain America,The FF,Avengers, X-Men and Daredevil are the focal of the Marvel Comics then where does Black Panther fit in? These are all American Teams and Superheroes. You've never seen this work for any company. Marvel and DC are the two biggest publishers. If all of their characters operate in one place, a character who operates outside of that doesn't stand a chance. Isolating him from the rest of the characters and important activities isn't likely to work for anyone.

Kun Lun is a fictional mystical city but aht hasn't prevented Iron Fist from being a staple within the mainstream 616 MU so I fail to see what point you're attempting to make by citing Wakanda's being in Africa has to do with reader interest in the region or the Black panther as a character.

As far as I know, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the Black Panther and the foundation for his attendant mythos all the way back in 1966 a full EIGHT years before both Iron Fist and Wolverine who were both introduced as 616 MU characters in 1974 so when you say that the Black panther came into the shared 616 MU "late" you clearly have a very funny idea as to what consitutes as being late.

The Black panther's existence as a viable character published by Marvel is all that should matter on a level playing field but when there are some readers and writers who seem to be of the impression that the character needs to be marginalized and depowered constantly due to the ridiculous belief that he's "too powerful" whilst other characters like Mockingbird and Iron Fist are powered up to the nth degree to little (if any) reader complaint then a clear and undeniable double standard would be evident to anyone looking at the matter with unbiased eyes.

@Vance Astro said:

@gravitypress said:

My only problem with him is why come to the US? Africa needs heroes badly and it seems strange for him to go to NY and fight crime for a country he should have no allegiance to.

That's what I mean. If Marvel built a better superhero base in Africa, and Black Panther was at the head of that and still the most important or at least one of the most important characters over there, he'd be in better shape. The whole "Man Without Fear" thing was a joke. Nobody can tell me that doesn't make him look inferior to Daredevil when he's a king taking the cowl of a street crime fighter. When DD took the time off, that's when you give someone who has less of a role a chance to shine. That would have been perfect to bring Echo back instead of putting her in Moon Knight (whom she has no prior connection to) just to be killed off.

The reasons Marvel gave for transporting T'Challa to Hell's Kitchen during the Black Panther:Man Without Fear arc revolved around their belief that the character needed to be US based so as to interact more with the rest of the statesside based 616 MU.

This was ostensibly done to raisde the characters profile amongst some readers who may have been unable to relate to any stories told outside of the 616 MU's fictional US.

I don't think Marvel really though about how pissed off Daredevil fans felt about having BP thrust into their favored characters book or for arguments sake, how annoyed the Black Panther's core fanbase were at having his solo book cancelled before the disastrous Doomwar and the continued downward spiral of BP's stock in the aftermath of the aformentioned Jonathan Maberry scripted hatchet job on T'Challa, Storm and Wakanda.

In my humble opinion, David Liss did a lot to gradualy repair the damage Doomwar blighted the BP mythos with by managing to eke out an interesting storyline inspite of the ill suited premise of Black Panther:Man Without Fear before going full throttle with Black Panther: Most Dangerous Man Alive which saw a return to a more recognizable T'Challa in the vein of Christopher Priest's characterization of the hero.

Unfortunately, Marvel decided to pull the plug on the character's solo book just as David Liss was gradually working towards returning T'Challa to Wakanda via the Kingpin Of Wakanda storyline.

One is left wondering why Marvel opted to kill a book that was well on the way to returning the Black Panther character to relevance just before launching AvX and the Hickman helmed FF arcs featuring BP and Wakanda which would have provided an excellent platform for crossover stories and a possible raised profile of the BP solo title?

Either way, Marvel seem to be focusing some attention on BP and Wakanda at the moment but as recent scans from AvX land show Namor demolishing Wakanda with tidal waves and atlantean warriors in tow iut remains to be seen how serious they are about portraying T'Challa and his fellow Wakandan's correctly as originally envisaged by Lee and Kirby.